Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

All of these sources are either talking about Sith power or are from the perspectives of contemporary, in-universe characters with no knowledge or experience of Valkorion's power. Not only that, but a fair few of them refer to Sheev being the most powerful being in the galaxy in the context of that time period, not universally. They're also from characters who were deathly afraid of Sheev.

@BoD For a start, Valkorion would be nothing without Sith power. Nice rebuttal of that by the way. Also, please cite some sources for Valkorion that are from people that have met Sidious...or does that not apply for Valkorion?

For a start, Valkorion would be nothing without Sith power.

Dark side =/= Sith. And no one's arguing Valk wasn't a Sith, but by the time of KOTFE he's cast aside that label.

Nice rebuttal of that by the way.

No idea if this is sarcasm.

Also, please cite some sources for Valkorion that are from people that have met Sidious...or does that not apply for Valkorion?

It doesn't apply to Valkorion because Valkorion has the feats to suggest his sheer superiority whereas ROTS Sidious lacks any accolades to put him above Valk.

@BoD What Valkorian's entire career hinges on:

The Old Republic: Revan wrote:"He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."

Corvinus wrote:@BoD What Valkorian's entire career hinges on:

The Old Republic: Revan wrote:"He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."

1) You're shifting the goalposts. This is in no way relevant to Valkorion, who's essentially a completely different entity than Tenebrae.
2) How is this proof of anything? It's already been accepted as fact that pre-Valkorion Tenebrae/Vitiate was a Sith, lol. The point is that Valkorion is not a Sith, which he's not.

@BoD Since it was in my list of sources you asked for, no, I am not shifing the goal posts. In fact you are, by not acknowledging that anything he does after that is only possible due to the ritual, which is Sith Sorcery.

Corvinus wrote:@BoD Since it was in my list of sources you asked for, no, I am not shifing the goal posts. In fact you are, by not acknowledging that anything he does after that is only possible due to the ritual, which is Sith Sorcery.

How he achieved that power is utterly irrelevant to the point that Valkorion as we know him in KOTFE/KOTET isn't a Sith. I have repeatedly stressed that Vitiate was a Sith, and yes that caps him underneath ROTS Sidious. However, Valkorion went through drastic power growth by draining Ziost and abandoned his moniker as Sith emperor and thus cut his ties to the Sith, meaning that he is no longer a Sith and thus not bound by this scaling.

You're throwing mud at a wall and hoping something sticks instead of focusing on a real argument. Stubbornly clinging to the idea Valk is still a Sith (despite about a dozen different instances, quotes and pieces of dialogue to the contrary) is not helping your case, nor is it proving anything about Valkorion and how ROTS Sidious supposedly scales above him.

@BoD That was all after the ritual on Nathema. None of it would be possible without that. If you can't accept that you are arguing in bad faith.

Corvinus wrote:@BoD That was all after the ritual on Nathema. None of it would be possible without that. If you can't accept that you are arguing in bad faith.

Again: why is this relevant to Valkorion? You're clearly capable of reading:

How he achieved that power is utterly irrelevant to the point that Valkorion as we know him in KOTFE/KOTET isn't a Sith. I have repeatedly stressed that Vitiate was a Sith, and yes that caps him underneath ROTS Sidious. However, Valkorion went through drastic power growth by draining Ziost and abandoned his moniker as Sith emperor and thus cut his ties to the Sith, meaning that he is no longer a Sith and thus not bound by this scaling.

2) How is this proof of anything? It's already been accepted as fact that pre-Valkorion Tenebrae/Vitiate was a Sith, lol. The point is that Valkorion is not a Sith, which he's not.

Dark side =/= Sith. And no one's arguing Valk wasn't a Sith, but by the time of KOTFE he's cast aside that label.

I have made it clear that Valkorion is not a Sith while pre-Valkorion is. By your logic, Vader isn't a Sith because he was originally a Jedi and learned to use the Force through them, same goes for Dooku.

@Corvinus

Neither Vitiate or Valkorion have accolades that reference "all of history", only the history up until the TOR era.

When did I ever say otherwise, and why is this at all relevant?  

As the PT era is after that, naturally the TOR era is included in that history.

No shit, but quote me where in the specific accolades you're referencing that they say Sidious is the most powerful Dark Sider in history, rather than just referring to the present day (i.e. ROTS).

As to the Son, he is exempted from such comparisons, as his source of power is the Font of Power:

Encyclopedia: Son wrote:
The Son was not a Sith -- his powers existed beyond the domain of the Sith Lords.

How on earth does that exempt him from such comparisons? Yes, he's not a Sith, and yes his powers exist beyond their domain, but he's still a Dark Side User meaning he falls under Sidious's accolades if they reference all of history. And given that The Son falls under these accolades, they're explicitly contradicted, ergo there's no reason to take them as binding over Valkorion.

Valkorion, because Bioware said we don't care about continuity.

TPM Sidious > any version of Valk. Valk can contend with Sheev with his force powers, although, he doesn't have the saber feats suggesting he can hold of Sheev. Especially, since Sheev has speed-blitzed the greatest masters ever produced by the Jedi order (most of Mace's strike team) and appeared to fade in/out of existence from Anakin's perception. He also did those things after not even practicing with a lightsaber extensively in years. I also don't think there is a large gap between TPM and ROTS Sheev. Sheev has much greater speed/strength feats, he is also much more skilled. Even when in comes to force powers Sheev, even as TPM, should have better TK. If Valk manages to win it would likely come from force lightning. However, that is unlikely given that Sidious has bent Mace's lightsaber blade with lighting and disarmed Yoda with lightning. ROTS Sheev should be more powerful than TPM Sheev, likely not that much. Valk might beat TPM Sheev here, he for sure isn't beating ROTS Sheev.

@SnowxElf: Welcome to Suspect Insight!

@SnowxElf Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

Azronger wrote:@SnowxElf Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

Nowhere, I'm new to posting in the Star Wars forums. I have been following Star Wars forums for a while. Star Wars forums on KMC and Comic Vine seem to be in a decline, quality wise. This seemed like the best place to post.

SnowxElf wrote:TPM Sidious > any version of Valk. Valk can contend with Sheev with his force powers, although, he doesn't have the saber feats suggesting he can hold of Sheev. Especially, since Sheev has speed-blitzed the greatest masters ever produced by the Jedi order (most of Mace's strike team) and appeared to fade in/out of existence from Anakin's perception. He also did those things after not even practicing with a lightsaber extensively in years. I also don't think there is a large gap between TPM and ROTS Sheev. Sheev has much greater speed/strength feats, he is also much more skilled. Even when in comes to force powers Sheev, even as TPM, should have better TK. If Valk manages to win it would likely come from force lightning. However, that is unlikely given that Sidious has bent Mace's lightsaber blade with lighting and disarmed Yoda with lightning. ROTS Sheev should be more powerful than TPM Sheev, likely not that much. Valk might beat TPM Sheev here, he for sure isn't beating ROTS Sheev.

Bioware is doing whatever it wants. Legends isn't canon any more remember.

I assume Swtor is alternate reality like Star Wars Infinities is.

@BoD

I have not called Valkorion a Sith once in this thread. Stop throwing mud at the wall, as you said to me, and come up with an actual rebuttal.

And of course it matters how powerful someone is, as it determines what they can do. A Jedi turned Sith still acquired the majority of their power from their Jedi career, but that doesn't stop them being a Sith now. You're just sidestepping to avoid admitting that.


@NotAA3

You said Sidious doesn't have accolades for "all of history", implying Valkorion does. He doesn't.

I am saying up to his history. There's a difference.

The Son explicitly draws his power from the Font of Power, and is the incarnation of the dark side of the Force, not a mortal using the dark side.

I have not called Valkorion a Sith once in this thread. Stop throwing mud at the wall, as you said to me, and come up with an actual rebuttal.

Mate, you've literally spent your last three responses claiming everything Valk is is due to Sith arts, conveniently ignoring the fact that this is Valkorion, not Tenebrae or Vitiate. 

And of course it matters how powerful someone is, as it determines what they can do. A Jedi turned Sith still acquired the majority of their power from their Jedi career, but that doesn't stop them being a Sith now. You're just sidestepping to avoid admitting that.

"I have not called Valkorion a Sith once in this thread. Stop throwing mud at the wall, as you said to me, and come up with an actual rebuttal."

SnowxElf wrote:TPM Sidious > any version of Valk. Valk can contend with Sheev with his force powers, although, he doesn't have the saber feats suggesting he can hold of Sheev. Especially, since Sheev has speed-blitzed the greatest masters ever produced by the Jedi order (most of Mace's strike team) and appeared to fade in/out of existence from Anakin's perception. He also did those things after not even practicing with a lightsaber extensively in years. I also don't think there is a large gap between TPM and ROTS Sheev. Sheev has much greater speed/strength feats, he is also much more skilled. Even when in comes to force powers Sheev, even as TPM, should have better TK. If Valk manages to win it would likely come from force lightning. However, that is unlikely given that Sidious has bent Mace's lightsaber blade with lighting and disarmed Yoda with lightning. ROTS Sheev should be more powerful than TPM Sheev, likely not that much. Valk might beat TPM Sheev here, he for sure isn't beating ROTS Sheev.

Valkorion is a defensive light-saber duelist.

@BoD I think you posted too early. I'll reply once you've edited it.

@Corvinus

You said Sidious doesn't have accolades for "all of history", implying Valkorion does. He doesn't.

What? How does me saying Sidious doesn't have supremacy accolades to place him over Valkorion suggest Valkorion does? I was addressing the argument that Sheev scales over Valkorion, I never claimed to have Valk > Sheev evidence.

I am saying up to his history. There's a difference.

Semantics, I meant all history up to his time, I'm perfectly aware of what you're arguing. And once again, you've failed to provide any evidence of these quotes that suggest Sheev was the most powerful Dark Sider in history, despite me repeatedly asking for it, so I assume that's a concession?

The Son explicitly draws his power from the Font of Power, and is the incarnation of the dark side of the Force, not a mortal using the dark side.

Yes, The Son is not a mortal using the Dark Side, but he is a Dark Side User. Note that SW.com states: "In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can." Ergo, The Son "wields" the Dark Side (i.e. uses it) meaning he would explicitly fall under Sheev's "most powerful Dark Side user in history" accolades, rendering them incorrect, and thus utterly invalid in a Sheev > Valkorion case.

Jesus Christ, this grasping at straws.

I'm assuming that wasn't directed at me.

@NotAA3

What? How does me saying Sidious doesn't have supremacy accolades to place him over Valkorion suggest Valkorion does? I was addressing the argument that Sheev scales over Valkorion, I never claimed to have Valk > Sheev evidence.

If you knew what I meant, as you state below, then you said it for no reason.

Semantics, I meant all history up to his time, I'm perfectly aware of what you're arguing. And once again, you've failed to provide any evidence of these quotes that suggest Sheev was the most powerful Dark Sider in history, despite me repeatedly asking for it, so I assume that's a concession?

Lol. What is it with this "I accept your concession" crap on this site?

Quotes are on the previous page as asked for by BoD.

Yes, The Son is not a mortal using the Dark Side, but he is a Dark Side User. Note that SW.com states: "In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can." Ergo, The Son "wields" the Dark Side (i.e. uses it) meaning he would explicitly fall under Sheev's "most powerful Dark Side user in history" accolades, rendering them incorrect, and thus utterly invalid in a Sheev > Valkorion case.

That's some nice mental gymnastics there. He wields his own power, as he is the incarnation of the dark side of the Force.

A unmovable object vs the unstoppable force.