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EmperorCaedus
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Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet Empty Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet

on November 25th 2019, 5:51 pm
Run 1: Luke Skywalker (RotJ)
Run 2: Luke Skywalker (DE)
Run 3: Luke Skywalker (FotJ)

R1: Revan (Mandalorian Wars)
R2: Revan (Darth)
R3: Revan (KotOR)
R4: Revan (Foundry)
R5: Revan (Reborn)
R6: Revan (SoR)
R7: Revan (SoR) X2
darthbane77
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Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet Empty Re: Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet

on November 25th 2019, 5:55 pm
1: Falls to Darth, not close.

2: Sweeps up to Reborn, whom he beats. Potentially falls to SoR, does fall to SoR X2.

3: Assuming he isn't jobbing like he usually does, he should clear this. Has difficulty with SoR X2. Imo no mortal Force user can beat two combatants that are in the same range as Yoda and RotS Palpatine *prepares for flack for saying Revan~Yoda*, but there's the chance that Luke enters Oneness and murks the both of them if or when he realizes he can't win.
IdrisianGraecus
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on November 25th 2019, 6:11 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:1: Falls to Darth, not close.

2: Sweeps up to Reborn, whom he beats. Potentially falls to SoR, does fall to SoR X2.

3: Assuming he isn't jobbing like he usually does, he should clear this. Has difficulty with SoR X2. Imo no mortal Force user can beat two combatants that are in the same range as Yoda and RotS Palpatine *prepares for flack for saying Revan~Yoda*, but there's the chance that Luke enters Oneness and murks the both of them if or when he realizes he can't win.
Wow, this is something I completely agree with. DE beats Reborn in a decent Bout, but probably falls to SoR. Given I hold SoR >= Yoda but <= KFV, this should be a decent fight. I believe that FOTJ can defeat both SoRs in a meh fight though. Max potency Luke is literally the most powerful mortal force user, ever. But DE gets stomped by SoR X2.
The Apprentice
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on November 25th 2019, 6:36 pm
ROTJ Luke falls to KOTOR (can beat Foundry though).

DE Luke falls to SOR X2.

FOTJ Luke clears.
darthbane77
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on November 25th 2019, 8:19 pm
@IdrisianGraecus wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:1: Falls to Darth, not close.

2: Sweeps up to Reborn, whom he beats. Potentially falls to SoR, does fall to SoR X2.

3: Assuming he isn't jobbing like he usually does, he should clear this. Has difficulty with SoR X2. Imo no mortal Force user can beat two combatants that are in the same range as Yoda and RotS Palpatine *prepares for flack for saying Revan~Yoda*, but there's the chance that Luke enters Oneness and murks the both of them if or when he realizes he can't win.
Wow, this is something I completely agree with. DE beats Reborn in a decent Bout, but probably falls to SoR. Given I hold SoR >= Yoda but <= KFV, this should be a decent fight. I believe that FOTJ can defeat both SoRs in a meh fight though. Max potency Luke is literally the most powerful mortal force user, ever. But DE gets stomped by SoR X2.

Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet 1289255181

I don't disagree that FotJ Luke is the most powerful mortal Force user ever. I just don't think he can fight against two roughly Yoda/RotS Sidious level opponents simultaneously without enter Oneness. Like I said in my original comment though, Luke will enter Oneness if and when he realizes the Revan duo is more than he can handle, and will turn them to dust at that point.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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on November 25th 2019, 8:20 pm
If DE Luke beats Reborn then how can one possibly justify having KotOR Revan >>> Exar Kun?
BreakofDawn
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on November 25th 2019, 8:40 pm
R1: If he's actually Vader level, 5 or 6. If not, 3 or 4.
R2: 6.
R3: Clears.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet Empty Re: Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet

on November 25th 2019, 8:42 pm
I honestly could see SoR Revan stopping Luke Prime if he had been whole mentally. Not saying he is stronger than Luke, just that he could strategize better and wouldn't make as many mistakes as his Shadow self would.

Without that I see Prime Luke clearing up until he hits 2x SoR Revan.

Of course from a storytelling perspective Luke would probably get help from the Force itself to fight 2x SoR Revan, in which case he would clear (given that the Force intervened on SoR Revan already during the storyline).


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 26th 2019, 2:15 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Phrasing)
LadyKulvax
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on November 25th 2019, 8:45 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:R1: If he's actually Vader level, 5 or 6. If not, 3 or 4.
R2: 6.
R3: Clears.

Glad to see you're on the Kun train.
BreakofDawn
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on November 25th 2019, 10:25 pm
Hmm?
LadyKulvax
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on November 25th 2019, 11:25 pm
DE Luke is canonically and demonstratably inferior to Exar, so you must have him beating Reborn too.
EmperorCaedus
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on November 25th 2019, 11:26 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:DE Luke is canonically and demonstratably inferior to Exar, so you must have him beating Reborn too.
Proof?
LadyKulvax
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on November 25th 2019, 11:27 pm
Did you actually read my RT or not?
EmperorCaedus
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on November 25th 2019, 11:28 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:Did you actually read my RT or not?
In this thread you haven’t explained how DE Luke < Exar
LadyKulvax
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on November 25th 2019, 11:50 pm
I didn't want to clog your thread with a wall of text given Kun isn't in it. I only wanted to point a serious paradox. But if I have your position as the OP to make the case then certainly.

Prime Exar Kun is confirmed to be far more powerful than Ood Bnar is, who went on to disintegrate Sedriss XL. Who was strong enough to have possibly defeated DE Luke in a duel:


TCSWE wrote:[size=31]Several thousand years later on the planet Ossus, Bnar reawakened to help save Jem Ysanna, a young woman with powers in the Force. He ultimately sacrificed himself to destroy the evil Imperial Military Executor Sedriss.[/size]

[size=31]****[/size]

[size=31]The Executor was destroyed by the power of an ancient Jedi, Ood Bnar.[/size]



Handbook 3: Dark Empire wrote:Sedriss and Vill Goir met Luke Skywalker and recent Jedi recruit Kam Solusar on the plains of Ossus. Had it been merely a contest between dark side adepts and Jedi, Sedriss might have been victorious.



Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.

Exar Kun in spiritual form was confirmed to be more powerful than Kyp Durron, who in turn was more powerful than Master Luke:


Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.


I, Jedi wrote:[size=32]"And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.[/size]

[size=32]"I will, if you make it necessary." An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features.[/size]

[size=32]"Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me." Even though I had braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous blows were like light breezes compared to this full-on gale. I slammed back into the wall with teeth rattling-impact.[/size]


Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt.


Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice (Germany) wrote:In the temples of a long-gone people, the spirit of Exar Kun, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, lives, whose teachings once led Darth Vader to the side of evil. Luke must watch helplessly as some of his students succumb to the whisperings of Exar Kun. Above all, the young Kyp Durron, who is utterly devoured by hatred for the Empire, is only too willing to follow the temptations of the forbidden Sith teachings. Without realizing, he is more and more dedicated to the dark side of power. Soon he's more powerful than Luke and threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent than Darth Vader once was ...
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Meatpants
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on November 26th 2019, 12:10 am
LADY KULVAX
BreakofDawn
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on November 26th 2019, 10:49 am
In the temples of a long-gone people, the spirit of Exar Kun, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, lives, whose teachings once led Darth Vader to the side of evil. Luke must watch helplessly as some of his students succumb to the whisperings of Exar Kun. Above all, the young Kyp Durron, who is utterly devoured by hatred for the Empire, is only too willing to follow the temptations of the forbidden Sith teachings. Without realizing, he is more and more dedicated to the dark side of power. Soon he's more powerful than Luke and threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent than Darth Vader once was ...

So according to this source, dark side Kyp ~ Vader > DE Luke.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

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on November 26th 2019, 12:10 pm
"'And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.'

Isn't this Exar+Kyp>= Luke? Not Kyp>Luke? Exar was possessing Kyp for a large part of the story, including the part with the black lightning and tendrils.

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice (Germany) wrote: wrote:In the temples of a long-gone people, the spirit of Exar Kun, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, lives, whose teachings once led Darth Vader to the side of evil. Luke must watch helplessly as some of his students succumb to the whisperings of Exar Kun. Above all, the young Kyp Durron, who is utterly devoured by hatred for the Empire, is only too willing to follow the temptations of the forbidden Sith teachings. Without realizing, he is more and more dedicated to the dark side of power. Soon he's more powerful than Luke and threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent than Darth Vader once was...
Also (I could be wrong) isn't this a novel blurb on the back cover?

It is also contradictory, because DE Luke>RotJ Luke~RotJ Vader.

But in this statement, RotJ Vader>Kyp>DE Luke...

While the New  Republic struggles to decide what to do with the deadly  Sun Crusher -- a new doomsday weapon stolen from  the Empire by Han Solo -- the renegade Imperial  Admiral Daala uses her fleet of Star Destroyers to  conduct guerrilla warfare on peaceful planets.  And now she threatens the watery homeworld of  Admiral Ackbar. But as the battle for a planet rages,  an even greater danger emerges at Luke  Skywalker's Jedi academy. A brilliant student delves  dangerously into the dark side of the Force and  unleashes the spirit of an ancient master of the evil  order that warped Darth Vader himself. Working  together, they may become an enemy greater than the  New Republic has ever fought... more powerful than  even a Jedi Master can face.
This is the publisher statement on the English version (not German), and it highlights how Exar and Kyp working together MAY allow them to overcome Luke.

Even then they are Publisher statements, not EU canon.

Handbook 3: Dark Empire wrote: wrote:Sedriss and Vill Goir met Luke Skywalker and recent Jedi recruit Kam Solusar on the plains of Ossus. Had it been merely a contest between dark side adepts and Jedi, Sedriss might have been victorious.
Luke was weakened at the time of this fight from a battle. Even then, he was still able to block Sedriss' force choke and send him flying back with the Force. Sedriss was disarmed and took someone hostage to hold Luke at bay. Sedriss backed into a tree, which turned out to be Ood Bnar, who channeled the energy of the planet (that he was connected to because of his roots) to counteract Sedriss when Sedriss tried to attack him. Neither of them survived the attack.

The quote above seems to be referring to the fact that Sedriss might have won because of his hostage if Ood hadn't intervened, not because of superior power to a weakened Luke in a fair duel.

On top of this Ood himself died in the attack.

And while Ood couldnt defeat Kun, Kun also couldn't get past Ood's tree form to get at the lightsaber collection.

Ood held off Kun for quite a while (in spite of not being used to fighting an opponent who used a double bladed saber) before one of Kun's minions stepped in to help, at which point Ood knew he couldn't win so he used his transformation. And this was without Ood being tapped into the power of the planet like he was vs Sedriss.

So one could make the argument that while Kun's offensive powers > Ood's offensive powers (without planetary boost), Ood's defensive powers > Kun's offensive powers.

So to summarize: 

Tired Luke> Sedriss. (Demonstrated superior TK and backed Sedriss into a desperate situation where he needed a hostage)

Ood (with planetary boost) >(=) Sedriss (but also died)

Ood (without planetary boost) able to hold off Kun in a fight for a while, then prevented Kun from getting what he wanted.
LadyKulvax
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on November 26th 2019, 6:27 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
In the temples of a long-gone people, the spirit of Exar Kun, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, lives, whose teachings once led Darth Vader to the side of evil. Luke must watch helplessly as some of his students succumb to the whisperings of Exar Kun. Above all, the young Kyp Durron, who is utterly devoured by hatred for the Empire, is only too willing to follow the temptations of the forbidden Sith teachings. Without realizing, he is more and more dedicated to the dark side of power. Soon he's more powerful than Luke and threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent than Darth Vader once was ...

So according to this source, dark side Kyp ~ Vader > DE Luke.

More dangerous =! More powerful
BreakofDawn
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on November 26th 2019, 6:38 pm
I mean, ROTJ Luke > Vader in sabers.
LadyKulvax
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on November 26th 2019, 6:39 pm
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
"'And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.'

Isn't this Exar+Kyp>= Luke? Not Kyp>Luke? Exar was possessing Kyp for a large part of the story, including the part with the black lightning and tendrils.

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice (Germany) wrote: wrote:In the temples of a long-gone people, the spirit of Exar Kun, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, lives, whose teachings once led Darth Vader to the side of evil. Luke must watch helplessly as some of his students succumb to the whisperings of Exar Kun. Above all, the young Kyp Durron, who is utterly devoured by hatred for the Empire, is only too willing to follow the temptations of the forbidden Sith teachings. Without realizing, he is more and more dedicated to the dark side of power. Soon he's more powerful than Luke and threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent than Darth Vader once was...
Also (I could be wrong) isn't this a novel blurb on the back cover?

It is also contradictory, because DE Luke>RotJ Luke~RotJ Vader.

But in this statement, RotJ Vader>Kyp>DE Luke...

While the New  Republic struggles to decide what to do with the deadly  Sun Crusher -- a new doomsday weapon stolen from  the Empire by Han Solo -- the renegade Imperial  Admiral Daala uses her fleet of Star Destroyers to  conduct guerrilla warfare on peaceful planets.  And now she threatens the watery homeworld of  Admiral Ackbar. But as the battle for a planet rages,  an even greater danger emerges at Luke  Skywalker's Jedi academy. A brilliant student delves  dangerously into the dark side of the Force and  unleashes the spirit of an ancient master of the evil  order that warped Darth Vader himself. Working  together, they may become an enemy greater than the  New Republic has ever fought... more powerful than  even a Jedi Master can face.
This is the publisher statement on the English version (not German), and it highlights how Exar and Kyp working together MAY allow them to overcome Luke.

Even then they are Publisher statements, not EU canon.

Handbook 3: Dark Empire wrote: wrote:Sedriss and Vill Goir met Luke Skywalker and recent Jedi recruit Kam Solusar on the plains of Ossus. Had it been merely a contest between dark side adepts and Jedi, Sedriss might have been victorious.
Luke was weakened at the time of this fight from a battle. Even then, he was still able to block Sedriss' force choke and send him flying back with the Force. Sedriss was disarmed and took someone hostage to hold Luke at bay. Sedriss backed into a tree, which turned out to be Ood Bnar, who channeled the energy of the planet (that he was connected to because of his roots) to counteract Sedriss when Sedriss tried to attack him. Neither of them survived the attack.

The quote above seems to be referring to the fact that Sedriss might have won because of his hostage if Ood hadn't intervened, not because of superior power to a weakened Luke in a fair duel.

On top of this Ood himself died in the attack.

And while Ood couldnt defeat Kun, Kun also couldn't get past Ood's tree form to get at the lightsaber collection.

Ood held off Kun for quite a while (in spite of not being used to fighting an opponent who used a double bladed saber) before one of Kun's minions stepped in to help, at which point Ood knew he couldn't win so he used his transformation. And this was without Ood being tapped into the power of the planet like he was vs Sedriss.

So one could make the argument that while Kun's offensive powers > Ood's offensive powers (without planetary boost), Ood's defensive powers > Kun's offensive powers.

So to summarize: 

Tired Luke> Sedriss. (Demonstrated superior TK and backed Sedriss into a desperate situation where he needed a hostage)

Ood (with planetary boost) >(=) Sedriss (but also died)

Ood (without planetary boost) able to hold off Kun in a fight for a while, then prevented Kun from getting what he wanted.

1.The point of this quote was to show one of three quotes that specifically display Kun > Kyp.

2.This is a blurb, yes. But the blurb only says more dangerous than Vader, unlike Luke who is given a direct unfavorable power comparison.

3.It's saying nothing about hostages, in actual fact it is saying if it was just a contest between them. Then Sedriss might've been victorious.

Ood himself died because of self-sacrifice. That's what TCSWE states pretty clearly.

Ood literally admits he wouldn't stand a chance against Kun, he is also specifically stated to have drawn from the power of Ossus to drive Kun back:

Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet 5453155-blasts%20back%20exar%20kun
LadyKulvax
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on November 26th 2019, 6:41 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:I mean, ROTJ Luke > Vader in sabers.

Vader is dangerous because he's a ruthless killing machine who would literally kill planets to win. Kyp by comparison blows up solar systems.
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on November 26th 2019, 6:47 pm
Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet 1668617588 That really makes no sense.

Also, if I had a penny for every edgy character said to be more powerful than Luke, I'd have enough to fund my tuition fees.
caffeineandshiny
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Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet Empty Re: Luke Skywalker runs the Revan gauntlet

on November 26th 2019, 8:38 pm
More dangerous =! More powerful
Dangerous does not necessarily mean more powerful. I would say that Maul is more dangerous than Yoda, simply because Yoda isn't going to go on a murder spree.

But even if you did interpret it that way, it specifically says he threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent. If he is already more dangerous, he wouldn't have to become it.

I apologize if you didnt mean it this way, as I'm not sure if you are using '=!' to mean equal to or to mean not equal to.

1.The point of this quote was to show one of three quotes that specifically display Kun > Kyp.
I would agree with this. At least Kun is mentally stronger and far more knowledgeable. However, every comparison of Kyp and Luke has Kun's power added to the mix. So I reiterate, this demonstrates that Kun+Kyp MIGHT be stronger than DE Luke. It does not show Kyp or Kun by themselves to be stronger.

2.This is a blurb, yes. But the blurb only says more dangerous than Vader, unlike Luke who is given a direct unfavorable power comparison.
Blurbs are not EU canon (much to the disappointment of Plagueis fans). They are written by the publisher. And it is also directly contradicted by the English blurb, which specifically states that it is only Kun and Kyp's combined powers which MIGHT be stronger than Luke.

On top of this, both blurbs were written before we found out that Anakin was the chosen one and that Luke had equal force potential to Anakin.

3.It's saying nothing about hostages, in actual fact it is saying if it was just a contest between them. Then Sedriss might've been victorious.

Ood himself died because of self-sacrifice. That's what TCSWE states pretty clearly.
First of all, it still says MIGHT. And, in the actual text it is quite clear that a weakened Luke was dominating Sedriss, flinging him back and disarming him, up until Sedriss took Jem as a hostage. Sedriss, because of his hostage, was able to get a breather and prevent Luke from finishing the duel.

Sedriss did not demonstrate superiority at all during the duel, not only failing in his Force attack against Luke but being dominated and disarmed in turn. The only attack that MIGHT have done anything to Luke was the one that Sedriss powered up using the dark energy from the atmosphere, and that was not only an amp, it was also a) never used on Luke and b) only possible because Luke couldn't fight back without getting Jem hurt.

And the fact that Ood died quite clearly shows that it was a suicide attack. On top of this, it was only possible because Ood himself was massively amped. Whereas when Luke was fighting Sedriss, he was not only not amped, he was tired.

Sedriss even exploited this fact, waiting until Luke was weakened to attack him. At the very least this is cowardice and at most it shows that Sedriss, despite all his powers and knowledge of how to amp himself, thought himself weaker than Luke.

Ood literally admits he wouldn't stand a chance against Kun, he is also specifically stated to have drawn from the power of Ossus to drive Kun back.

I've already said that Kun> base Ood. However, as shown in the text, the difference between the two is not that huge. It is undeniably exists, but the fact that Kun couldn't just overwhelm Ood and actually had help in defeating Ood shows that base Ood was able to compete, at least for a time.

And yes, he transformed into his tree form in which state he was able to "drive Kun back". However, this is the same state in which Ood killed an amped Sedriss.

Ood was able to stop Kun the instant that he tapped into the planet but was required to use a suicidal attack in order to kill Sedriss after being connected to that same power for 4,000 years.

And again, a weakened Luke was able to dominate Sedriss.

Ood(amped)> Kun

Ood(amped +4000 years of being connected to the planet)> Sedriss (amped)

Luke(weakened)> Sedriss

Luke (weakened) MIGHT have been defeated by amped Sedriss (aka, Sedriss used the amped attack on Ood instead of Luke so we don't know. The fact that it is a 'might' actually shows that there was no guarantee the attack would have taken Luke out. Even while Luke was weakened and not able to retaliate, because of Jem)
BreakofDawn
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on November 26th 2019, 8:44 pm
^ Basically this.
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