SS - AOTC Obi-Wan Kenobi (LordOfTheLight) vs Qui-Gon Jinn (Meatpants)

I. Context and Why It's Important

The problem with what LOTL has presented so far is that most of it it is taken monstrously out of context to suit his argument. I'll address the quotes he's provided and his skewed analysis one-by-one.

A. Misc. Quotes

Okay, so you've provided the following quote:

A luxury cloud cruiser has slipped out of control and is sinking into the thick atmosphere of Yorn Skot, barreling at breakneck speed around the planet in a slowly decaying orbit. Fortunately, two of the Jedi's finest are in the area- Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi!

You've cited the source as Star Wars: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan - The Aurorient Express. I can't seem to find the quote directly in either issue. If it is, I'd like you to source a picture of it, or else I'll disregard it. On the other hand, if it's a publisher's summary (as Wookiepedia points towards), then it's not absolutely binding, especially considering how that quote is phrased for children. Even then, the wording doesn't mean what you want it to. You use this quote to demonstrate that Obi-Wan, six years prior to TPM is "already among the best Jedi in an era which is the prime of the Jedi." This isn't the logical way to interpret the quote. The word "finest" does not mean among the most powerful. A look at the definition of the word using The Oxford Online Dictionary does not produce any parallel with "among the best" at all. The primary definition is "Of very high quality; very good of its kind." However, a Jedi can be one of the finest in terms of embodying the Jedi ideal without also being "among the best". In other words, "finest" has no correlation with "power" or being "the greatest" or "among the best". Plus, the fact you're using that quote is really telling to what straws you're ready to grasp for Kenobi.

A lot of these quotes are fine, if not a bit irrelevant. I do take extreme issue with your analysis of this quote:

The New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:When Qui Gon took him on as his padawan Kenobi vowed to become the consummate Jedi.

By all accounts he succeeded. Kenobi and Jinn made an impressive pair, whether overseeing planetary elections or battling terrorists.

I don't care if "consummate" can be synonomous with "perfect", because Kenobi obviously wasn't the "perfect" nor "ultimate" (the two synonyms you sported) Jedi in TPM. I suspect that, like the previous quote, it's referring to Kenobi's dedication to becoming the model Jedi. This is further corroborated in the following quote you provided:

Obi-Wan Kenobi (Jedi Knight) - Order Of The Jedi - 1:6 Scale Figures wrote:The embodiment of Jedi ideals, Obi-Wan Kenobi is both wise and strong. His patience and keen powers of observation have served him well as one of the Jedi Order's most masterful negotiators. These qualities are matched in measure by his swiftness and skill with a lightsaber, making him Master Yoda's first choice for many unconventional missions. Dependability and trustworthiness are traits the Jedi Council have come to associate with Obi-Wan for his loyalty to the Order and to the Republic.

This is no indication that he's necessarily among the best of the council, especially since in Cestus Deception he's shown (and admits himself) as a markedly inferior swordsman to pre-prime Kit Fisto. On the primary point here, being the "embodiment of Jedi ideals" means just as the other quotes I've broken down means. From The Oxford Online Dictionary, embodiment means "A tangible or visible form of an idea, quality, or feeling." It means no more than being a "consummate" Jedi or among the Jedi's "finest". There's no correlation to power or overall ranking in the Order. Even his accolade of "strength and wisdom" isn't something Qui-Gon doesn't have, who's described as rising to "great prominence within the Jedi order" (Star Wars: Episode I Visual Dictionary), having enough "strength and wisdom" to be eligible to sit on the Jedi Council (Star Wars: Episode 1 Game Manual), was known as "one of the Order's most formidable members" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia) etc. Furthermore, you claim to not recalling Qui-Gon having a similar accolade of being the "embodiment of Jedi ideals". But Qui-Gon is a maverick Jedi, so of course he isn't considered the embodiment of orthodox Jedi ideals, but Yoda's praise of him is quite telling regardless: "A true Knight, Qui-Gon is. Forever on his own quest." (Cloak of Deception).

LotL wrote:This power is called "Memory Rub" or something along those lines in the ToTJ Compendium. Now, this power is listed among the Sith powers there, powers that the Jedi of the time barely knew even existed and simply heard of them though whispered rumors about Sith powers. Even in the PT era, only a select few Jedi have learnt it.

Yet Qui Gon teaches it to Obi Wan when the latter is just an apprentice. Now, extrapolating this line of thinking, we can clearly see that not only do the Jedi Masters see fit to reveal to him exotic force techniques that are clearly dangerous but that Obi Wan is still the characteristic and model Jedi that we all have seen, it can be understood that his willpower and force mastery have to be incredibly high.

Very few beings in SW have shown the necessary mastery to use dark techniques and still walk the path of the light and have the characteristics of a model Jedi still( there are countless cases of ancient Jedi being driven insane on learning Sith teachings or acquiring dark power). Granted, Jinn is among them, obviously, but this is about the level Obi Wan is at when is is just a padawan. It is about the level of training he is given at such an early stage. So, it is not just his raw power, he has the training to match his talent to boot.

Tidbits like Darsha Assant( someone Maul considered a worthy opponent) doubting whether she could even hold her own with him in a knowledge based discussion is just icing on the cake.

I'm going to need more information than it allegedly being a Sith technique. I'll also need proof that the technique is noticeably difficult to learn/master. I don't see anything inherently "Sith" or "dangerous" about the ability to wipe specific memories from another's head; but you're making it out to be this really special ability, and that if lesser Jedi were taught it, they'd fall to the dark side or something.

Maul considering Darsha Assant a "worthy opponent" (Shadow Hunter) is retconned in End Game:

End Game wrote:After all the droids, assassins, gangsters, and soldiers he had vanquished, finally a worthy opponent. […].

End Game was released in 2012, and Shadow Hunter in 2001. Thus Maul has not encountered a worthy opponent (bar Sidious of course) until facing Qui-Gon on Tatooine.

B. Sparring Match

I'll post the full passage for reference:

Jedi Apprentice: The Threat Within wrote:
Qui-Gon was hoping that the physical activity would help his Padawan release some tension - and piece things together in his mind. Regardless, focusing on something entirely different would be a good change of pace.

Obi-Wan seemed reluctant as they exited the building. But once he was outside and facing his Master, his eyes flashed with an intensity that surprised Qui-Gon. The young Jedi ignited his lightsaber, and Qui-Gon did the same.

The two Jedi circled each other slowly with their lightsabers raised, as if in a dance. Obi-Wan moved gracefully, his eyes locked on Qui-Gon's. It was as if he were challenging him to do something, to make the first move.

Qui-Gon did. He brought his lightsaber down in a powerful strike - once, twice, three times. Obi-Wan was there to block each blow. The graceful arcs he made with his blade were confident and accurate. His eyes never left his Master's face.

Qui-Gon suddenly realized that his Padawan's lightsaber skills had improved significantly in the past months. His physical energy was exceptional - young and true. Obi-Wan was fighting like a Jedi Knight.

Not to mention trusting his instincts, Qui-Gon thought wryly. He suddenly had the feeling that one day the boy would beat him. And that such a day might not be so far away.

The two Jedi dodged and weaved with incredible speed, their ignited blue and green blades blurs of energy in the Vorzyd night. But behind them pulsed something even stronger-Jedi will. Obi-Wan wanted to be treated as an equal, Qui-Gon knew. But while he had grownup a lot in the last four years, he was only seventeen. He still had much to learn.

With each stroke, Qui-Gon pushed Obi-Wan farther back. It was not terribly difficult. But even as he advanced on his Padawan, Qui-Gon had the feeling that Obi-Wan was allowing him to do it - that the Padawan was somehow in control.

He was. In a flash of blinding green light Obi-Wan swung, ducked, and turned. His blue eyes flashed and a small smile turned up the corners of his lips. He now had the upper hand.

Qui-Gon was accustomed to this kind of haughty strategy coming from an enemy. But it was slightly unnerving to see it in his own Padawan learner. And yet it had worked.

As if picking up on his Master's thoughts, Obi-Wan stepped up the pace an additional notch. Now he was swinging repeatedly and with phenomenal strength, pushing Qui-Gon in a wide arc around the courtyard. His green blade was a bright blur in the darkness, and his entire body moved with certainty and empowerment.

Qui-Gon had to concentrate - hard - to keep ahead of his Padawan. They had fought side by side often enough for him to be able to guess what Obi-Wan would do next. Of course, the same was true of Obi-Wan. And once in a while the young Jedi blocked a blow so quickly that Qui-Gon knew the boy had known exactly what was coming.

With a flash and a buzz, the lightsabers met in a raised cross. Both men were breathless, sweating from the exertion. This had been no lighthearted spar.

Obi-Wan looked up at his Master, his eyes bright and intense. It was clear that he had not actually won the match, but that he had stated his case firmly. Something had changed between them. Obi-Wan had taken yet another step toward becoming a Jedi Knight, and Qui-Gon was closer than ever to letting him go.

Your analyis of this sparring match is actually really disappointing. I expected much more from someone of your calibre. The analysis you present here is out of context and full of fallacies, completely and utterly one-sided. I'll demonstrate why.

Your analysis:

LotL wrote:
So, I have heard people simply disregard this on the basis that it is just a sparring match, but it is clearly not true, based on the evidence.

1. This was clearly stated to be "no lighthearted spar" making it evident that this was an actual demonstration of their abilities.

2. By the end of the match, Qui Gon was panting and sweating hard. Another clear indication that Qui Gon was pushed to his limits( so was Obi Wan but still). To emphasize how impressive this actually is, this was 8 years before TPM, at a time Jinn would have been in peak physical state( lessening physicals vs increasing augmentation by his power) and he is still reduced to the same state as Maul did to him on Tatooine.

3. While the text does make it clear that Obi Wan didn't actually win the match, he did manage to "state his case firmly" which as clearly stated, was that Obi Wan wanted to be seen as an equal.

You get the point. Even if I become generous and say that Qui Gon is noticeably superior to him at this stage, it is clearly obvious that they are comparable enough and that Jinn obviously does not have any significant, let alone big edge over him.

Another more pertinent fact is that Obi Wan is just 17 at this stage. Obviously his growth rate is going to be higher than Qui Gon's so by the time we get to TPM, he should be near equal to his master, should he not?

You probably heard people disregard this passage based on it being a sparring match because... it's a sparring match. Sure, evidence can be gleaned from it, but the context surroundng this match should not be ignored. The relationship between master and apprentice becomes such that they ultimately learn each other's moves and styles intimately:

Revenge of the Sith Novelisation wrote:Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

This wasn't an isolated case either, Dooku remarks similarly regarding his spars with Qui-Gon:

Revenge of the Sith Novelisation wrote:Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics.

It's a safe and logical assumption that Qui-Gon and Kenobi were no different. After all, Obi-Wan "models himself after Qui-Gon" (Star Wars: Episode 1 Game Manual). This is corroborated in the novelisation: "Good, Master, Obi-Wan thought, urging him on voicelessly, anticipating Qui-Gon's sword strokes as if they were his own." And "He was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen". Thus, taking this into consideration alters one's perception of the spar completely away from my opponent's. I would invite the reader to re-read that passage with this context in mind, you'll get what I mean.

This is a sparring match, unless you want to somehow equate teenage Kenobi = Darth Maul, I don't see what you're getting at here in regards to physical exertion. And one thing you're clearly forgetting is that Qui-Gon's victory in the spar was "clear". It's as simple as that. In no way does your line of thought here "Obviously his growth rate is going to be higher than Qui Gon's so by the time we get to TPM, he should be near equal to his master, should he not?" make sense, and there's no way I'm going to let you get away with jumps in logic like this. We actually know that Qui-Gon increased his mastery of the Force considerably approaching TPM:

Jedi Quest: The School of Fear wrote:Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life.

Qui-Gon's mastery of the Force was on par with that of the great Jedi Masters "near the end of his life", or rather, approaching TPM. So yes, Qui-Gon is making significant gains approaching TPM. The second incorrect part of your sentence is the suggestion that TPM Kenobi should be near-equal to Jinn based off a sparring match. As I've clearly demonstrated via what's practically G-canon, masters and apprentices learn each other's styles and moves extremely intimately. Of course it's not going to be a stomp, but (1) Qui-Gon was the "clear" victor of the spar, and (2) this in no way is justifiable evidence to approve Kenobi being near-equal to Qui-Gon 8 years down the track. This will be covered more in depth later, along with some other quotes I've left out for now.

II. The Case for Qui-Gon

I'll establish basic accolades, feats and scaling demonstrating Qui-Gon's superiority over AotC Kenobi combatively.

A. Swordsman Accolades

The quotes you provide in regards to TPM Kenobi's skill vis-a-vis Qui-Gon's are interesting, but your conclusion from them is extremely lacking. The most important quote is this one:

The Phantom Menace Prima Guide wrote:Obi Wan lacks only Qui Gon's experience to become his equal as a swordsman.

At face value, one could perhaps interpret this as meaning Kenobi is as technically skilled as Qui-Gon. This is the viewpoint you seem to champion, considering that you take Qui-Gon teaching Obi-Wan "everything he knows" dead literally. Of course, that viewpoint is blatantly false. Using this logic, we would expect Ki-Adi Mundi, who was Padawan under Yoda for two decades to be a master of every form of lightsaber combat. Qui-Gon is clearly referring to teaching Obi-Wan everything he knows about being a Jedi Knight. As a result of this, we also have to take the source itself tentatively. Obi-Wan is not as technically skilled a duelist as Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon is a master of every lightsaber form:

Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force wrote:Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

Evidently, these classical fighting techniques refer to the classical forms of lightsaber combat, as they are frequently referred to as. Dooku of course knew all the lightsaber forms, and was a "much sought-after teacher" in the Jedi Temple (Labyrinth of Evil). Labyrinth of Evil also refers to the classical lightsaber forms as equivelant to the Jedi Arts, of which Qui-Gon is a stated master: "Qui-Gon was a master of the Jedi arts, and strong in the Force." (Fact File). This position is further corroborated by virtue of Qui-Gon being "generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen." (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia) and is "one of the most skilled of the Jedi warriors." (Star Wars: Episode 1 Game Manual). This of course doesn't mention the other handful of accolades Jinn has regarding his swordsmanship, but the above quotes point to Qui-Gon being one of the greatest technical duelists in the history of the Order, and one of the most skilled of all the Jedi of his time. Not to mention that his lightsaber style is only "slightly" less deadly than Windu's variant of Juyo, Vaapad (Prima's Star Wars Episode I Jedi Power Battles Guide). It's therefore safe to say that Qui-Gon has mastered every lightsaber form.

AotC Kenobi does not have any swordsman accolades that even remotely match this. His TPM incarnation of course has the Prima Guide quote, but this quote clearly must be interpreted tentatively, as unlike Qui-Gon, he hadn't mastered every lightsaber form. Especially since he chooses to "master" Soresu after TPM, which is already indicative enough. Additionally, experience isn't simply experience in that Qui-Gon has fought many more lightsaber duels than Kenobi; it also translates to technical skill. Qui-Gon would have responses, counters and strategies for a variety of different combat situations. In fact, this experience aspect of Jinn's style is so significant that it gives him an advantage over Darth Maul:

TPM Novelisation wrote:His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.

Darth Maul was trained in the Banite arts by Darth Sidious, mastered every form of lightsaber combat (Juyo requires mastery of all previous forms) and had trained to be the ultimate lightsaber duelist, placed under grueling test after grueling test by Sidious. Jinn's experience edge is therefore extremely large and significant, and even if we were to accept the Prima Guide as absolute fact, can we be sure that Kenobi has bridged an approximately 30 year gap in 10 years? Furthermore, whilst Maul repeatedly praises Jinn for his skill in combat, no mention is made of Kenobi's. Kenobi keeps up by virtue of his youth and large Force reserves. I'll explore that a bit more below.

Let's not forget that in Sidious' description of the Naboo duel, he refers to Qui-Gon as a "powerful warrior" (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul). He expresses pride in that his training resulted in the death of "the great Qui-Gon Jinn." This is unusual praise from Sidious, and the fact that Sidious would even refer to Qui-Gon as such as indicative of his power and ability. On the other hand, Sidious pays little to no attention to Kenobi. This isn't the only praise Qui-Gon receives from a Banite Sith. Plagueis says that Qui-Gon is nothing like Dooku's other apprentices, and when he hears that Maul and Qui-Gon had encountered each other, he actually feared for Maul's life:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Despite a brief confrontation with Qui-Gon Jinn, the Jedi Master and his party had managed a second successful escape. The Zabrak hadn't been killed, as Plagueis had initially feared […]

Note that Plagueis has actually watched Maul train with his saberstaff, and has met Qui-Gon before. Thus, Qui-Gon's impression and power in the Force was enough to provoke this fear from Plagueis.

For now, it can be safely demonstrated that Qui-Gon has mastered/knows intensively every lightsaber form, has 20 years experience on Obi-Wan and has superior swordsman accolades.

B. Scaling

AotC Kenobi's performance as a swordsman isn't really the best there can be. For one, Count Dooku regards to himself in his duel with Obi-Wan "To be honest, I expected much more from Qui-Gon's former padawan." (Star Wars: Most Precious Weapon). If anyone knew Qui-Gon's abilities as a swordsman other than his own former padawan, it was his former Master, Dooku. Clearly, Dooku's impression is that Kenobi hasn't lived up to Qui-Gon's legacy as a duelist. It's not helpful that shortly after AotC, Fisto is so fast for Kenobi in a spar at first that Fisto deliberately hinders himself so that his opponent can catch up (Kenobi even admits he's the inferior swordsman). This is quite an embarassing showing, considering Fisto is pre-prime and heavily inferior to Darth Maul. Since Qui-Gon is clearly superior to RotS (prime) Fisto via feats and accolades, and that Gillard himself has confirmed that Qui-Gon beats Fisto, we get this scaling chain:


If you want to be even more ambitious, one can take into account Asajj Ventress. She defeats early clone wars Fisto quite easily, disabling him with a kick and a cut to the arm. Compare this to Mundi's fight with Asajj in the same time period, where Mundi matches her for an extended time period, and his opponent actually runs away from the fight. Thus, we get:


Any attempt at comparing Qui-Gon's performance against Maul with Kenobi's in order to counter this scaling is an ultimately futile attempt. Kenobi being able to laster longer against Maul in their final bout was due to Kenobi's greater force augmentation and enraged state. Qui-Gon actually came closer to killing Maul, as Maul had to jump out of the fight to recover from Jinn's assault, as he had been "stymied" and sent "reeling"; whereas although Kenobi was pressing him, Maul was able to hold him off and eventually take him down. Of course, LotL will want to dispute this, so I'll let him counter specific points rather than me giving a huge and wasteful analysis of the fight.

III. Conclusion

Qui-Gon is an objectively superior combatant to AotC Kenobi. Although Kenobi knows Qui-Gon's moves more than Qui-Gon would know his, Qui-Gon's superior experience and technical would be a huge factor that Kenobi still lacks. In a life or death situation, Jinn's experienced and measured style will be too much for Kenobi, who hasn't yet surpassed his master's legacy as a swordsman, as noted by Dooku. Kenobi is an inferior swordsman to Fisto, where Qui-Gon can match Darth Maul evenly for over half a minute from start to finish. The comparison is quite simple.