How much effect would Count Dooku’s Lightning have on Darth Vader

 And RoTJ Luke doesn't have jack for feats. Ahsoka Tano would probably clap his cheeks at that point, whereas it's peak Vader then. So comparing RoTJ Luke to RoTJ Vader doesn't really work, and then going as far as saying because RoTJ Luke failed, that means Vader would too is even worse. 

@CaptainMarTuuk: ROTJ Luke's "feat" is stalemating ROTJ Vader, with endless sources clarifying they're dead equals and Vader's internal dialogue absolutely bewildered and frightened by how good Luke is, lol. 

Also, it may say that Vader could never have recreated it without the 'amp' he supposedly got, but he can and he did long before that fight so it's kinda a moot point.

When does Legends Vader tank Palpatine's lightning prior to that scene? And, as for the lightning being vague, my point that more sources point to the lightning over the dark side waves still stand even if you don't think that particular quote is compelling.

NotAA3 wrote:@BreakofDawn

Lol at even a vastly pre-prime Vader being stalemated by Ben. Just wow. That is high quality bait.

Not bait. Objective OOU sources agree with me.

Objective sources excluding the novel, film and script, you mean. 

DarthAnt66 wrote:

 And RoTJ Luke doesn't have jack for feats. Ahsoka Tano would probably clap his cheeks at that point, whereas it's peak Vader then. So comparing RoTJ Luke to RoTJ Vader doesn't really work, and then going as far as saying because RoTJ Luke failed, that means Vader would too is even worse. 

CaptainMarTuuk: ROTJ Luke's "feat" is stalemating ROTJ Vader, with endless sources clarifying they're dead equals and Vader's internal dialogue absolutely bewildered and frightened by how good Luke is, lol. 

Also, it may say that Vader could never have recreated it without the 'amp' he supposedly got, but he can and he did long before that fight so it's kinda a moot point.

When does Legends Vader tank Palpatine's lightning prior to that scene? And, as for the lightning being vague, my point that more sources point to the lightning over the dark side waves still stand even if you don't think that particular quote is compelling.

There are sources that state they're equals, but there aren't any feats to back that up. Vader has raised himself from the dead, moved so fast that a blaster bolt didn't even have time to leave the barrel of a blaster before he dodged, melts durasteel with a Force Scream, Force Crushed a Stormtrooper into a pile of ash, etc. RoTJ Luke has nothing that even comes close. I'd like to see Vader's inner monolog about Luke then, because I don't recall him being scared. Impressed sure, but not scared. I'd also like to point out that he always held back on Luke in their fights. And I can't believe I didn't bring this up earlier, but even if Dooku managed to kill him with Lightning, he'd just revive himself and be in an extreme rage.

I thought I had the Palp one on hand, but I'll have to look for it. I can send Statkiller/Dark Jedi Lightning in the meantime as well as some stuff about the dark energy tho.

Did you really just say Vader can bring himself back from the dead?

He probably means the brink of death like he did after collapsing that cathedral while trying to kill himself. Vader can cling to life in a somewhat similar way to a lot of Sith (e.g. Revan), but as far as we know he's limited to his body.

There are sources that state they're equals, but there aren't any feats to back that up. 

@CaptainMarTuuk: The fight itself is proof that they're equals. The novel, comic, and script outlines every blade-stroke of that fight. We don't need anything else. 

Vader has raised himself from the dead

Tarkin's statement obviously isn't literal. On-panel Vader was hit by flamethrowers, blasted by a stun gun, then woke up chained to a pole. If the central character of all of Star Wars died and resurrected off-panel, we would get more than a vague passing comment. Even the crawl just says Vader was "captured" and nothing else. 

moved so fast that a blaster bolt didn't even have time to leave the barrel of a blaster before he dodged

I wouldn't really say that's that impressive for any moderately powerful Force user. 

melts durasteel with a Force Scream

Quote?

Force Crushed a Stormtrooper into a pile of ash

Actually, it looks like he internally boiled the stormtrooper, ergo the smoke and goo. Not that that isn't impressive, but there's a difference. 

I'd like to see Vader's inner monolog about Luke then, because I don't recall him being scared. Impressed sure, but not scared. I'd also like to point out that he always held back on Luke in their fights. 

Sure. Vader actually does note his fear in the Return of the Jedi adult novel:

"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."

And Vader didn't hold back. The text above makes that clear, and other sources state Vader “pressed the attack at every turn,” “seemingly did not hold any reluctance at the clash,” and “brutally, and aggressively brought his full strength and power against the younger man." In contrast, Luke was "not battling to his fullest," "wasn't really fighting," “held back,” and “only struck back in self-defense” per other sources. 

And check out the below engagement in the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader. Vader actively said he can't let Luke win, yet Luke still stonewalled Vader’s attacks, made him tired, then kicked him away. And note this happened immediately after Vader had "bald anger" and "wanted revenge."

"You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader said, as he brought his lightsaber up fast. With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!

A precise kick from Luke sent Vader over the edge of the elevated platform. Crashing upon the metal floor below, Vader roared as he felt a cybernetic cable snap in his right leg.

I can get you the full source and quote for anything said here if needed.

I thought I had the Palp one on hand, but I'll have to look for it. I can send Statkiller/Dark Jedi Lightning in the meantime as well as some stuff about the dark energy tho.

I don't recall Legends Palpatine ever attacking Legends Vader with Force lightning before ROTJ, unless you're referring to the TFU 2 DS ending? The Starkiller stuff isn't necessary since I'm more disputing your claims specific to Palpatine than Vader's general resistance.

[hideedit]

melts durasteel with a Force Scream

Quote?

Another roar from Vader. Part of the ceiling gave way. Durasteel melted, smoke rose from the debris. Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning
Taken from the Vader respect thread. No idea what the context is so take it with a grain of salt.


Edit: Never mind, it's a legitimate feat:

Spoiler:

BreakofDawn wrote:

melts durasteel with a Force Scream

Quote?

Another roar from Vader. Part of the ceiling gave way. Durasteel melted, smoke rose from the debris. Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning
Taken from the Vader respect thread. No idea what the context is so take it with a grain of salt.

Hm, yeah, I wasn't sure if he was referencing something else though. I'm not entirely sold because we know Vader's actively hurling everything in the room around and into walls while totally enraged, so that smashing could have triggered the durasteel melting rather than a Force scream or whatever. Note I don't think the "roar" is necessarily even a telekinetic roar, just that Vader got even angrier and intensified his attacks to a greater degree. 

That's not to say the feat isn't solid though -- just obviously not at all indicative that Luke and Vader aren't equals when everything says they are.

Hm, yeah, I wasn't sure if he was referencing something else though. I'm not entirely sold because we know Vader's actively hurling everything in the room around and into walls while totally enraged, so that smashing could have triggered the durasteel melting rather than a Force scream or whatever. Note I don't think the "roar" is necessarily even a telekinetic roar, just that Vader got even angrier and intensified his attacks to a greater degree. 

Fair enough, but the roar is described as this:

Vader roared. It was a howl of fury, inarticulate, undisciplined. Totally unlike his usual icy control. The control box on his chest started to smoke.


It's described as though he loses all control and starts lashing out with his power. I also think that if the author wanted to indicate that it wasn't a direct consequence of Vader's anger he would have mentioned it, but I doubt anything left in that room could have the power to melt durasteel.

That's not to say the feat isn't solid though -- just not at all indicative that Luke and Vader aren't equals.

I avoid debating the parity between Luke and Vader for fairly obvious reasons, so I won't comment. Just here to provide sources and enjoy the show. 

The one other thing I want to say is that Vader consistently fights worse in saber duels when enraged. Starkiller, Luke, Obi-Wan, Ferus and other Jedi have exploited it because he throws caution to the wind and basically screws himself over.

@BreakofDawn: Well, if durasteel's melting, isn't that due to heat? I don't think a telekinetic attack alone could "melt" durasteel -- just smash into it. It's plausible throwing some object really hard and fast into durasteel could cause some sparks and melting though. *shrugs* I suppose the difference is basically semantics though.

Considering the variety of sources that state Vader and Ben fought equally matched and the fact that GL believes Ben is more powerful in the force, I don't think it was intended for Vader to be anything but comparable to Ben

Eh true. Thing is, the room's describing as being an absolute tip with virtually no power. Nothing in there works anymore:

He came out into the circular room. It was half rubble, the seating blackened lumps, the vast transparisteel shattered. Wind whipped through the room.


If something was thrown into the durasteel, I'd say it'd be more like to dent or at most scorch it rather than actually melt it. Besides which, even if it did that would indicate the raw power a vastly pre-prime Vader is unleashing in that room.


Anyway, I'm going to shut up now before I interfere any more. 

@BreakofDawn: Certainly a testament to Vader's power either-way.  I'm just saying it's also a testament to ROTJ Luke's by extension.

KingofBlades wrote:Considering the variety of sources that state Vader and Ben fought equally matched and the fact that GL believes Ben is more powerful in the force, I don't think it was intended for Vader to be anything but comparable to Ben

The ANH novel disagrees. Also add HellFire's point about Vader being more cautious when he fought Ben considering the last time they fought, it ended up with Vader getting his legs cut off.

^ All editions including the original at that, along with the script and film.

BreakofDawn wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:@BreakofDawn

Lol at even a vastly pre-prime Vader being stalemated by Ben. Just wow. That is high quality bait.

Not bait. Objective OOU sources agree with me.

Objective sources excluding the novel, film and script, you mean. 

Post me quotes from each indicating Vader's superiority.

As for everyone else in this thread, I intend to respond tonight, but if I don't manage to you might have to wait a week or so for my response.

Can't get them right now. Remind me tomorrow when I'm not half asleep, lol.

Okay, will do.

@dark_globe

ANH Vader is considerably pre-prime when we are talking his suit version.

This is unsubstantiated.

He still beat ben (regardless of interpretations and circumstances ben was killed).

And TPM Kenobi beat Maul. Your point?

He was testing luke and trying to turn him to his side, he wasn´t trying to kill him and he still dominated the fight.

Obviously, Vader was significantly better, but that doesn't address my actual argument which is that he was still "given trouble by ESB Luke."

OP: Given Vader tanked far greater lightning on multiple occasions Dooku's lighting won´t be able to stop or incapacitate Vader.
it would only make him even angrier towards his opponent.

Care to cite examples of where Vader "tanked far greater lightning"?

@HellfireUnit

Vader didn't stalemate post-prime Kenobi.

He did. He failed to breach Kenobi's guard, objective OOU sources testify it was a stalemate and that Kenobi is Vader's match.

He had the upper hand even though he had a huge mental disadvantage. Kenobi is one of the people he fears most and traumatized him. Despite being mentally unstable, Vader was above Kenobi and the latter was unable to find weaknesses of Vader's form.

No evidence Vader was mentally disadvantaged to any significant degree and as I said above the duel was stated to be a draw. If you have evidence Vader was winning, please provide it. Kenobi not being able to find any flaws in Vader's form doesn't matter as I could say the same in reverse.

Besides, this was a confrontation with his former master after two decades and a merely change of blows.

Relevance?

Also Luke did not give any trouble to Vader who was toying with the young Skywalker.

Quote for Vader toying? Anyway, Vader was forced back twice in the duel, and Luke clipped him across the shoulder. I'd hardly say Luke "did not give any trouble to Vader".

About Force Lightning, Vader already began to overcome the physical restrictions from his suit, and used only Dark Side to sustain himself when he collapsed a building on him. He stayed under the ruins without his suit's life support systems and else.

Good durability feat but I'm not convinced Force Lightning would do nothing if it breached Vader's defences because of it.

Vader tanking Sidious' lightning, which is superior massively superior to RotS Sidious lightning which is also way more superior to Dooku's lightning is an insane feat of durability. Vader did this without any use of Force Powers, rather with his will and own strength.

Quote for Vader doing it "without any use of Force Powers"? Regardless, it's not applicable to base-Vader for the reasons provided by Ant on the previous page.

@BreakofDawn: Just a friendly reminder for you to respond to me.

The Ellimist wrote:

Not convinced exhausted Starkiller's lightning is beyond Dooku's, but feel free to prove me wrong.

@NotAA3 Let me grab the quotes, scans and gifs and I'll get back to you in a bit.