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SS - Super Fight III - Darth Vader (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)

(Originally posted on 17 October 2018. Relevant character count is under 35,000.)

I. REVAN REBUTTALS

A. THE POWER OF ZIOST

Open spoiler tags to view recap.

Spoiler:

Since when has “largest” been synonymous with “most potent”?* The Old Republic Encyclopedia’s description of the ritual nexus only denotes its size, not its potency.

Since 1200 AD [1]. “Large” means “of more than average size, quantity, degree, etc.” (Dictionary.com), “big in size or amount” (Cambridge), “of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity” (Oxford), “having more than usual capacity or scope” or “exceeding most other things of like kind especially in quantity or size” (Merriam-Webster), “of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity” (Google), etc.

There are many planetary-wide nexus’ in Star Wars - Korriban, Ziost, Malachor V, Dromund Kaas, Lehon, Zakuul, Odessan, Ambria, etc. Nathema being the “largest in size” dark side nexus would simply mean it’s an unnaturally large planet. Given the context of the quote speaks to the magnitude of the Nathema ritual, the size of the planet is utterly irrelevant information and clear indication that the usage of “largest” is instead in reference to quantity/amount/capacity, i.e. the nexus’ potency.

It’s amusing how #teamswtor still can’t get a grasp on such a simple concept as… words.

You have become the living embodiment of irony. Congratulations.

You’re baselessly assuming that Ziost is only “moderately” powerful when in reality its potency is undefined.* 

The potency of Ziost is defined - it’s less powerful than the “largest dark side nexus in history,” i.e. Nathema. As previously stated, any boost a weakened spirit Vitiate received by being in the presence of the Ziost dark side nexus does not compensate for his standard spirit possessing the Nathema dark side nexus. Add on Vitiate consuming millions of inhabitants, eight-thousand powerful Sith Lords, all the fauna and flora of the planet, and the discrepancy in power between a spirit and a physical body, and it’s impossible for the weakened spirit Vitiate residing on Ziost to be more powerful than his standard peak self.

Now, to make my argument perfectly clear, I am not claiming Ziost necessarily is potent enough to elevate spirit Vitiate above his corporeal counterpart, so you cannot shift the burden of proof on me. I am merely pointing out the fact that because the nexus’ intensity is unquantifiable, your claim that Ziost is less potent than the Medriaas nexus the Shit Emperor assimilated into his being falls apart. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and yours has none.

Based on the underlined, it seems your entire rebuttal is contingent on your first-grade blunder of what the word “largest” means. Given I’ve brought you up to speed with second-grade developments, I hope we’re in agreement over Vitiate’s capabilities. Thus, to restate from post one: Physical Vitiate >>> Spirit Vitiate >>> Weakened spirit / Ziost Vitiate.

B. REVAN’S WILLPOWER

Open spoiler tags to view recap.

Spoiler:

You argue that the energies Revan channeled would also be affected by the Yavin nexus, balancing out Revan being amped. But the blast had the intensity to ravage life in a one-kilometer-radius on Yavin IV, so if we remove the nexus, it would not have been nearly as potent. Thus, Revan tanking it would have, aside from being far less impressive, been indeterminate. And if we remove the nexus amp from Revan, then there’s no proof he could even have tanked it at all as he was pushed to the edge of his strength even when amped to high heavens.

It’s not some balancing effect. Yes, passive dark side energies of Yavin 4 flowed through Revan, amplifying him. Further, Revan concentrated the powers of the Machine Core into himself, meaning he had both the stream of power from the Yavin 4 nexus and the Machine Core. However, Revan lost control of these energies when attacked, and they “overloaded” within him. Thus, the passive dark side energies that were originally amplifying Revan were no longer at his disposal but actively included in the “backlash” of harmful energy against him. In other words, Revan can't use the same out-of-control energies literally ripping him apart to simultaneously prevent him from being ripping him apart - that doesn't make any sense.

Not to mention that the attack would only have been that potent “upon successful completion.” Since Revan’s channel was broken before that happened, the backlash wasn’t as intense, and the thus whole feat is entirely unquantifiable.

Straw man. I never argued the backlash could have destroyed all life within a one-kilometer radius. However, as previously stated, “Revan channels the energies of The Machine to devastate all life in a one-kilometer radius, with his pulsations of power during the channel already afflicting all in the radius.” In other words, although the channel was incomplete, Revan still suffered a backlash from energies potent enough to radiate and increasingly damage all life in a one-kilometer radius and that approached the power to destroy everyone outright.

Addendum: You’ve fucked yourself in the ass by posting the scan about Revan’s machine core backlash, which stated that he was “Stunned and unable to act” after it blew in his face. If a blast only capable of dealing “massive damage to enemies within 1km” - and possibly much weaker than that, as I’ll soon explain - is enough to push a stupendously amped Revan to his limits, I wonder how unamped base Revan could ever be scaled anywhere near, much less above, this (link). 

That’s rather crude language, don’t you think? Let’s keep this civil.

Still, I’m glad you brought that up. In the past, I shied away from the “stunned and unable to act” segment because of its hilarious ramifications if taken seriously. However, if you're treating it as fair game, then so will I, and there's no going back now.

Sure, Revan was temporarily “stunned and unable to act” for three seconds after internally tanking kilometer-afflicting energies. While you clearly did not put a lot of thought into this argument, what exactly do you think happened while Revan was “stunned and unable to act”? That the coalition strike team sat back and drank juice boxes until Revan got back up? Revan would be immobile on the floor as dozens of enemies stab him with lightsabers and fire blasters and explosives (which is exactly what happens in-game). If Revan’s “unable to act,” then he’s incapable of actively using the Force, meaning he absorbed all the attacks through sheer force of will and still got back up and continued fighting. Note that Revan remained fully conscious during this time, even speaking, “No! I won’t be denied! I will never give in!” This is consistent with how Revan is unfazed by a direct lightsaber strike from Satele Shan in the Shadow of Revan launch trailer [1], and further substantiation that Revan’s powered by his will.

Your argument establishes Revan as a virtually indomitable opponent that cannot be subdued by conventional means. Even a supremely weakened and largely defenseless Revan was seemingly invulnerable to point-blank lightsaber strikes. To win, Vader would literally have to rip Revan apart, which even kilometer-spanning energies or direct lightsaber strikes cannot do.

To your point, this does not ascribe any limit to Revan. The overload was internal, meaning Revan could not defend against it with a Force barrier. Your argument is the equivalent of if someone surgically implanted a bomb in Vader’s body then arguing Vader’s limit is the potency of the bomb since he blew up when it detonated.

C. REVAN VERSUS VITIATE

Open spoiler tags to view recap.

Spoiler:

I didn’t ignore anything. If Meetra is constantly “refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war,” and Revan had his powers constantly return to their natural state as you yourself state in your next paragraph, then at best it proves he can resist the Shit Emperor for an unspecified amount of time after which his mind is restored to his peak capacity by Meetra. You have absolutely no proof Revan could have endured for 300 years without having his mental powers continually renewed to their maximum.

You’re just regurgitating your argument from post two without responding to my actual rebuttals. You completely failed to address that Vitiate grew continuously stronger from siphoning Revan. Thus, to restate “The power discrepancy between an equalized Revan and strengthening Vitiate would constantly expand until Vitiate’s powers far surpassed and completely overpowered Revan’s. Thus, it must be Revan’s own growth, clearly brought forth through nigh-endless usage of Force and exertion of will, that allows him to remain in lock-step with Vitiate."

The Exile repeatedly states that Revan’s “strength will fail,” which would not happen if he were growing more powerful continually (link).

I already incorporated the Exile’s statements that Revan’s “strength will fail” into my first post (click). You are just reusing the quotes I already cited and concluding the opposite without addressing my original argument or providing new analysis. The fact Revan’s power began to and/or would fail toward the end Cold War is not mutually exclusive with the idea Revan’s powers grew across the three centuries prior. Both conditions can easily be true, as I've even already said, so that’s not a rebuttal.

His success, aside from having his psyche repeatedly revitalized as explained above, is simply explained by the Shit Emperor’s incompetence with telepathy similar to Corran Horn being unskilled in telekinesis.

Your defense to Revan razing planets has come down to alleging that Vitiate is unnaturally incompetent with telepathy in a comparable fashion to Corran Horn with telekinesis. Oh boy. Of course, Horn isn’t “unskilled” in telekinesis; he has a literal genetic predisposition against it. In contrast, Vitiate’s telepathic ability is consistently touted by sources utterly disproportionate to any other power he possesses. Vitiate even consciously chooses to use telepathy in battle, which defies all sensibility if his other abilities, like telekinesis, are distinctly more potent, which establishes a clear distinction between him and Horn (who biologically cannot use telekinesis).

In a normal confrontation, Failkorion utterly lays waste to the Outlander (links 1 and 2), yet admits to being incapable of mentally enslaving him (link). The Outlander resisted Failkorion, yet wasn’t anywhere close to being as powerful otherwise.

Valkorion admitted to being incapable of easily *essence transfering into the Outlander, i.e. “My spirit invaded your mind in a search for a new host. You resisted.” However, the difficulty of essence transfer is utterly disproportionate to conventional abilities. It’s “nearly impossible” “to overcome a spirit already residing in a body” per the Dark Empire Sourcebook. As to why, the Dark Side Sourcebook explains, “If you transfer your essence to another body, and the original consciousness asserts control, you are simply forced out, and the original body survives,” seemingly regardless of context, meaning the original consciousness has a nigh-insurmountable advantage over the contending consciousness. Thus, Valkorion required significant time to secretly and slowly hollow out the Outlander’s consciousness.

Vitiate never attempted to essence transfer into Revan; rather, he and the Dread Masters tried to corrupt Revan into their servant and pry information from his mind. When they realized Revan was ‘too powerful’ to be influenced, they began attempting to first splinter his consciousness. My first post explained this in depth (click). Thus, your example isn’t comparable to what happened to Revan, nor is it indicative of any unstated, innate weakness in Vitiate’s trademark ability.

D. LORD VIVICAR SCALING

Open spoiler tags to view recap.

Spoiler:

You’ve proven that Morrhage created a link between himself and hundreds of Jedi, but you’re hastily jumping to an unvalidated conclusion by claiming that he actively dominated them all at once.* Yuon Par had noted some time before the Consular storyline began that she’d been ill, and after she finally succumbs to the sickness, Syo Bakarn notes that she is “resting comfortably” (link 1 and 2). Once the player arrives at the hospital, however, Yuon is seen rambling (link), but later on Attros Finn notes how there have been no more outbursts like that (link). When Yuon is being mind controlled and starts rambling again, Attros tells the player that she was placid beforehand, and that the outburst came all of a sudden without warning (link). The fact that there are periods of calmness proves Morrhage isn’t dominating the plague victims continuously. The best we’ve seen from him is controlling one individual at a time, and so that’s the most Revan scales above.

Unsurprisingly, you have the timeline mixed up. Vivicar started by plaguing those that joined him on the Malachor 3 expedition: Yuon Par, Duras Fain, Sidonie Garen, Eriz Vossan, and Cin Tykan. Vivicar grew exponentially more powerful because of this: “My power is already beyond your comprehension. and every moment makes me stronger" [1]. And, yes, Vivicar was not dominating them continuously. However, by the time the Barsen’thor finally confronted him, Vivicar was so powerful that he revealed, “My plague has spread farther than you can imagine. Jedi Masters across the galaxy are succumbing to it as I speak.” The amount is identified as “hundreds” by both Vivicar (i.e. “The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order.”) and Syo Bakarn (i.e. "We have reports from across the galaxy. Dozens of Masters have died from the plague, maybe hundreds.”). Thus, exactly as I claimed, Vivicar successfully subjugated "hundreds" of "Jedi Masters” simultaneously (i.e. “succumbing to it as I speak”), and this was accomplished via telepathic domination (as you seem to agree given you called it “mind control”). If not, refer to my second post articulating why it's telepathy (click).

II. NEW VADER ARGUMENTS

A. THE FORCE UNLEASHED SCALING

1. RAHM KOTA SCALING

On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice encounters a massive ship that’s blocking his access to the junk Jedi Temple, and notes that he would take hours to run around it on foot (link) - consider how fast Force users can go when they augment their speed with the Force, and a picture of the ship’s size may begin to form in your head. To solve his conundrum, he instead supercharges the engines with lightning and moves the entire bulk of the ship out of the way (link). Essentially, the Apprentice’s lightning generated enough joules for the corvette to move the same distance in seconds/minutes that would’ve taken the Apprentice’s Force augmented speed hours, and had enough residual potency for the ship to have moved dozens of seconds even after that.

It would take “hours” for Galen Marek to get around the ship because it’s blocking the entrance, not because it’s infinitely tall and wide despite explicitly being a ”corvette” (i.e. “a small warship"). Even then, Marek almost passed out after performing the feat: “Somewhat shakily, he stood, then almost toppled over as the engine continued to fire, sending the corvette onward, out of his control” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).

On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice confronts an army of droid golems which he forms a hurricane out of (link). Note that these are not your typical droids, but puppets animated by Kazdan Paratus’ Force abilities (link). Through Paratus, the droid golems were able to utilize telekinesis, Force shield and Force drain (link), making them basically identical to typical Force users. It would not be inaccurate to say that the Apprentice outright ragdolled a bonafide army of Force users numbering in the “thousands,” which were capable of holding off the forces of the Galactic Empire for years (link). After disposing of Paratus’ minions, the Apprentice comes face-to-face with the Jedi, and ragdolls him too (link).

First, Marek’s “thousands” figure refers to all the droids, including the countless ones he destroyed before the energy blast: “Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the temple's hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).

Second, the droids are revealed to be largely resistant to telekinesis but highly vulnerable to Force lightning: “This enabled them to resist some Force powers, including Force Push, though they were highly susceptible to sudden energy surges such as those caused by Force lightning” (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Marek learned this first-hand by killing a dozen scrap guardians instantly with lightning: “He ignored them, used Sith lightning to blast a dozen droids that rushed him with electric claws raised” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). Thus, it stands to reason his “mighty exhalation of power” includes lightning (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMzL1RAeHc&t=3m34s) - Marek wants an immediate resolution to the situation, and lightning instantly destroys them whereas they’re explicitly “immune to Force push.” So, no, I wouldn’t call it “ragdolling thousands of Force users,” and I doubt Marek would either: “Ones such as these, with barely a matching part among them, were child's play” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).

Also, you cited the Junk Titan in your hyperlinks. The Junk Titan was not included in the hurricane, and Marek only “weakened it” after repeatedly striking it with “every iota of energy he could muster,” establishing a defined limit to Marek’s capabilities as of Raxus Prime.

Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization wrote:Igniting his lightsaber, he slashed one of the reaching appendages clean off and batted another aside with a firm telekinetic punch. Recovering his balance, he sent a wave of lightning rippling across its corroded carapace, but that barely slowed it down . . .

Ducking under the swinging blades, he sent bolt after bolt of lightning into the massive wound he had made, while battering it with panels ripped from the walls and hurled with every iota of energy he could muster. Finally it weakened. Listing heavily on its left side and missing one of its axes, it staggered ponderously backward across the foyer.

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After his fight with Kazdan Paratus, the Apprentice muses how he could level the Jedi’s junk Jedi Temple with a single Force push (link). The Temple was stated by Juno Eclipse to look exactly like the real one on Coruscant (link), which is one kilometer in height (link), and while they may not be completely identical, it is still obviously of similar proportions.

- which is demonstrably false given you’ve already clocked Marek’s limits on Raxus Prime to be almost passing out after powering a corvette for a brief period of time and barely damaging a Junk Titan with all his power, both of which are a far cry from blowing over the largest structure on Coruscant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v5MmZQMN9k&t=0m1s

During the Apprentice’s fight with Shaak Ti, special note was given to the Jedi Master’s ability to telepathically dominate all life on Felucia, a planet completely overgrown with vegetation (link), the natives of which are all inherently Force sensitive (link) and spread across the entire planet (link), with the most powerful ones being “among the most talented natural Force-users in the galaxy” (link)

You have provided no evidence that Shaak Ti telepathically dominated all life on Felucia. If you’re referring to her control over the Felucians, she simply trained and encouraged them to embrace life-side practices (as sourced below). As for the other fauna and flora, the native Felucians also have control over that: “The Felucians are able to use the Force to command and control their environment and its creatures” (Source: Felucian Warrior databank, Star Wars The Force Unleashed video game).

Shaak Ti databank, Star Wars The Force Unleashed video game wrote:When Shaak Ti discovered the Felucians, she began teaching them to use their connection to the Force for both attack and defense. She also encouraged them to resist the temptation of the dark side

The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide wrote:The Jedi Master struggled to survive in Felucia’s harsh environment and eventually made contact with the native population living amid the dense fungi jungles. She established a rapport with the Force-sensitive Felucians and began training their shamans in specific powers to help them oppose the Imperial troops and minions of Vader that are hunting down the Jedi and seeking to eradicate the native Force-users on the planet.

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and she had even nerfed their connection to the Force (link).

That quote doesn’t state what you think it does. Ti “keeping their innate Force sensitivity in check” isn’t the same as suppressing their powers. Ti actively trained the Felucians in offensive and defensive Force powers, and they even used such powers against Marek to impede his progress to Ti: “The apprentice ducked another bolt of Force energy hurled by the Felucian warrior to his right,” “Dodging their clumsy telekinesis and unwieldy blows,” etc. Instead, Marek may be suggesting that Ti’s presence suppressed their natural aggression towards him, which makes more sense given “Shaak Ti’s defeated affect them deeply, so profoundly entangled had she become in the energy flows of the world” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).

The effect her death had on the planet is accounted in great detail, further demonstrating her influence over the entire biosphere (link).

Ti spent sixteen years plugged into Felucia’s hypersensitive biosphere - obviously her violent death would have an effect on it. However, Felucia’s shift to the dark side, which you are citing, can largely be attributed to Maris Brood, who corrupted and trained the Felucians in the dark side after Ti’s death: “Fueled by her anger at Shaak Ti for abandoning her, horror at the carnage of her Master's death, and isolation of the dangerous planet of Felucia, Brood descends toward the dark side. She continues training the shamans in the Jedi arts but, colored by her rage, corrupts many of them into turning to the dark side. Brood establishes herself as the leader of the dark Felucian shamans and trains many rancors to do her bidding” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide). Note that Felucia “could be easily influenced by both the light and dark sides of the Force” (Star Wars Fact File #55), so a moderately powerful Force-user and armies of Felucians embracing the dark side should be sufficient.

Yet, the Apprentice overpowers her with a Force repulse, with the following comments emphasizing his superiority: “Shaak Ti’s command over Felucia was impressive. She communed with its native species, commanding its flora and fauna to attack. But even with an entire planet at her command, she could not hold Starkiller. No one could…” (link).

You’ve established Ti communed with the Felucians and deeply integrated herself in the Felucian wildlife (like the other Felucians). I don’t know if you meant to type more but forgot, but you’ve presented literally nothing noteworthy here. Why is Ti exhibiting standard telepathy and alter environment on an all-powerful nexus important to a debate between Revan and Vader?

And given Shaak Ti had turned the planet into a light side nexus (link), the Apprentice, as a darksider, would have been hindered during the feat.

You haven’t exactly articulated a feat . . .

Marek’s fight with Shaak Ti takes place only weeks after his duel with Kota at best. It would be a huge stretch to argue any sort of large gap between Nar Shaddaa Marek and Felucia Marek when such has never been stated to exist. Marek is pretty much operating on the same power level against Ti that he did against Kota, yet the Jedi General is able to stalemate him in a Force battle. Kota should thus logically be able to duplicate all of the feats I listed for Marek.

You’re essentially arguing Rahm Kota’s significantly more powerful than Shaak Ti, lmao.

Star Wars Insider #140 wrote:After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.

While the word “formidable” has two distinct definitions: “(1) causing fear, dread, or apprehension, (2) having qualities that discourage approach or attack” (Merriam-Webster), the context here indicates the latter, as the text emphasizes her as “one of the most powerful Jedi,” and Ti doesn’t “cause fear, dread, or apprehension” like a villain would. Thus, Ti’s “far more formidable” than Kota, meaning Marek must have grown vast in power between fighting Kota and Ti. Per your own words, Marek would have went from “stalemating Kota” to “overpowering Ti.” So, sure, Vader ragdolled someone far less powerful than Ti.

2. SHADOW GUARD SCALING

He was also stated to be far beyond the Emperor’s Shadow Guards, one of which was able to match Galen Marek in "a clash of sparks and lightning” and prove to be “tough work” until Marek cheap-shot him (link)

Utter nonsense. The quote, “The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning,” does not remotely imply they “matched” each other. It simply means their lightning and lightsabers collided (i.e. “clash”). The same happened against the previous Shadow Guard that Marek fought also, but it’s explicitly stated they were not evenly matched despite that: “A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spitling, tackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side . . . The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).

As for the “tough work” quote, Marek, or any powerful Force user for that matter, doesn’t just consistently unleash his full power against every random minion he fights. Even then, Marek never “cheap-shotted” the Shadow Guard. Instead, he telekinetically hurled a giant object at the Guard that crushed him: “He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). Unless the Shadow Guard had ceilofanophobia, it seems he was “so stunned” that Marek could “wrench” such a “giant fan” and “send it spinning through the air” in his direction (i.e. he’s shocked by Marek’s power), and at best the Guard was only capable of jumping out of the way, establishing Marek as the far more powerful of the two.

3. GALEN MAREK SCALING

Yes, equally. That’s what the text states. You’re right about Galen getting a second wind of sorts but leave out Vader’s mental state completely.* Marek successfully unbalanced Vader with taunts right before the tables began to turn (link). This would have undoubtedly factored negatively into his performance a great deal as HK-47 states (links 1 and 2).

Except Marek’s “taunts” only further empowered Vader: “The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). “Redoubled” means “to make twice as great in size or amount” (Source: Merriam-Webster), “to make something much stronger” (Cambridge), “make or become much greater, more intense, or more numerous” (Google), etc, which makes sense because Sith draw on anger for power and Marek’s taunts utterly enraged Vader. HK-47’s statements pertain to Jedi, who generally suffer the reverse effect. So, an amped-up Vader was brutally humiliated by Marek, who in turn was weaker than the Emperor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irIxkjXOp5M

Vader does legitimately scale to all that Marek has done with the Force up to that point, such as blowing up a lightsaber-resistant rancor (link), powering a cannon that puts a hole in an ISD and brings down a superstructure (link), and yanking down an ISD from the sky (links 1 and 2).

None of which are comparable to wiping out a planet.

Also, you can’t attribute feats like these to Vader given Marek has “the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever” (Star Wars Insider 100). For instance, in 21 BBY, Anakin held back a theta storm despite Obi-Wan noting even Yoda likely couldn’t do that [1]. Of course, that doesn’t mean sub-Dooku Anakin’s somehow more applicably powerful than Yoda in the Force. Rather, in feats that require continuous Force exertion, Anakin (and Marek) can immerse themselves into their unprecedented Force reserves to outlast and outperform almost anyone. Even if Vader’s applicably comparably powerful to the Marek that nudged a Star Destroyer, that doesn’t mean he can maintain such a level of power for the required duration to pull off the feat. Vader’s smaller Force reserves, reflected in his weaker potential, will clock him out far quicker.

B. THE FORCE UNLEASHED II SCALING

1. GALEN MAREK CLONES SCALING

And Vader’s fought and beaten Galen’s clones too.

Based on what? The Force Unleashed 2 novelization states, “Together they could easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him. Instead they were driven to destroy their own,” indicating that the past clones were biologically disposed to not attack Vader, so Vader likely executed them without any conflict. However, I’m not even convinced Vader even killed any failed clones given Starkiller fought an army of them - it seems Vader kept them in storage. Regardless, even if Vader fought and killed past clones, they would have been highly unstable and likely not even armed, similar to the dozens Starkiller cut down with ease.

It's also noteworthy that Starkiller believed that the clones en masse could “easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him,” as just quoted, whereas Starkiller pulverized them all simultaneously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhnsC2V4_0w

2. STARKILLER SCALING

The primary Starkiller clone - who is just as powerful as the original Marek (link) - he outright ragdolls (link).

Before we begin, for those reading who have never heard of The Exhaustion Argument :tm:, click here and read the section "# 2 - Too Tired to . . . Fail?"

Done? Good.

Vader temporarily gained a telekinetic advantage over a Starkiller more exhausted than after spending thirteen days straight wasting away Force energy to sustain himself: “He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization). The lifting is not even indicative of superiority over the near-dead Starkiller either, given Vader still lost that fight anyway and would have also lost the fight directly beforehand if Starkiller had not suffered from a sudden vision the moment he went to strike Vader down:

Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization wrote:The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

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The all-too-common counter to this is that Starkiller was exhausted before he fought Vader.

Correct. Perhaps my finest argument, if I may so so myself.

The game has him screaming like a madman mere seconds before Vader Force grips him, and the novel notes how he was “howling with rage” which is echoed by the Prima Official Game Guide (link). Historically, Force rage has been enough to erase any and all feelings of enervation, such as in the cases of Dessel and Maul (link; it’s not a stretch to assume that Starkiller would be amped when losing Juno to Boba Fett sent him into a Force Rage earlier (link), and here has just witnessed - in his mind - her get killed by his most hated enemy), so Starkiller was at full power when Vader tossed him aside “like a ragdoll” (link). And to make this clear, Vader manhandled Starkiller because he was “too powerful,” not because Starkiller forgot to put his Force defences up or whatever.

The fact Starkiller “howls with rage” doesn’t mean he’s in a state of Force rage. “Rage” and “Force rage” are not synonymous. “Rage” is just an emotion that Sith, for instance, always use in battle. “Force rage,” however, is a specific Force application of totally surrendering oneself to their rage and dark side. The practitioner is consumed in a frenzy of dark side emotion (e.g. Darth Maul on Hypori, Jacen Solo on Coruscant, etc.), which grants "increased power for a short period of time" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Once the bloodlust subsides, the user is "drained of huge amounts of energy," and "has to recuperate for an extended period of time before being able to call upon the dark side again" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Based on this description, you have literally nothing suggesting Starkiller went into Force rage.

Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2 novelization wrote:Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way.”

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

"They are real to me. "

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go . . .

Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.

The behavior Starkiller demonstrates is even contradictory to what would be expected from the blind fury of Force rage anyway. Immediately after “howling with rage,” Starkiller breaks off and goes to Juno Eclipse. Vader blocks him, but Starkiller literally just asks to get out of his way rather than continually attack Vader in a frenzied state. When Vader refuses, Starkiller attacks with less strength than before, indicating either the effects of Force rage are already ebbing - meaning Starkiller is in an even weaker state for the rest of the fight due to the Force deprivation that follows Force rage - or he was never in a frenzy in the first place.

_______________

His superiority is also demonstrated when he tanks a rage-amped Starkiller’s lightning barrage for 30 seconds without sustaining any lethal injuries (link), which is consistent with the Prima Official Game Guide’s description of Vader rendering most of Starkiller’s Force attacks useless (link).

>vader is overwhelmed by starkiller’s lightning barrage

>this demonstrates vader’s superiority over starkiller

Checks out.

Starkiller was not “rage-amped” during the lightning barrage. The fact Starkiller screamed while blasting Vader does not mean he even tapped into the dark side, let alone fully immersed himself in it, as doing such is outright contradictory to the novel. Early into the duel, Starkiller gained a burst of clarity, realizing he must avoid the dark side and contain his anger and despair: “Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair” (Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization). Later, Starkiller even plead with Vader to join the Rebellion: "The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor. Why not work with them rather th-?" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization).

Further, aren’t you arguing Starkiller was Force enraged at the start of the duel? Which is it - the start or the end? Even your own argument isn’t consistent, nor does it explain how Starkiller already defeated Vader without Force rage in the cloning tower. Thus, without even the slightest substantiation to your Force rage argument, it’s clear Starkiller’s lightning barrage was in a state of near-death exhaustion, which explains the screaming. Remember, Starkiller “never felt so exhausted” directly before the fight in the cloning tower (since he just unleashed the totality of his Force power twice-over in the span of an hour), then had two prolonged fights with Vader that would further deplete the fraction of power he had left. The fact Vader was overwhelmed by such a weakened Starkiller is proof that a rejuvenated Starkiller would utterly crush Vader.

Far less powerful blasts have been able to penetrate Vader’s insulation (link), so going by your logic, Vader is actually holding his body together through sheer will, since apparently internal organs aren’t covered by a Force shield (link), which is news to me but I’m okay with it because it means Vader’s will exceeds Revan’s given Starkiller’s lightning is vastly more powerful than the backlash that incapacitated an amped Revan (link).

Or Vader’s using the Force to (unsuccessfully) defend against the Force attack, lmao.

3. DARK APPRENTICE SCALING

Darth Vader has also beaten the Dark Apprentice (link, they both have their lightsabers drawn, the Dark Apprentice is humbled and kneeling before Vader, smoking and with cuts on his cheek and arm; anyone's who's taken classes in visual analysis should recognize this as the aftermath of a duel) - someone more powerful than the original Galen Marek “ever was” which would include Oneness.

No, the scene is a mirror reflection of Marek’s initiation at the start of The Force Unleashed (i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJsE3q0E2yw&t=9m49s), hence why Vader has his lightsaber out. As for the Dark Apprentice’s injuries, it’s far more plausible that he just fought other clones given, as you said, his robes are smoking (which would be from Force lightning, which Vader doesn’t have). Further, Vader’s question - “Are you freed of his memories?” - makes more sense to ask after Starkiller destroys other versions of Marek than simply after a practice duel between the two. How would the Dark Apprentice been defeated if he's still armed with both his lightsabers anyway? I didn't know Sith do tap-outs.

(Continued . . .)

SS - Super Fight III - Darth Vader (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)

I barely got this post under 35000 characters, so I was forced to leave out some things like Revan’s growth to save space. If it becomes relevant again, I’ll address it in my fourth post, but for now I felt like it wasn’t important compared to the other topics.

Also, I hope all the links work as intended. Alert me if something is off and I’ll try to fix it.

I. THE PHANTOM REVAN

A) PLANET EATER

No, my analysis factored that in. As I stated, during the ritual of Nathema, “Vitiate sucked dry the entirety of the planet’s cosmic Force - unnaturally amplified to ‘the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see’.” Thus, Vitiate’s standard spirit already possesses the totality of a dark side nexus explicitly far more potent than Ziost. Any boost weakened spirit Vitiate received from simply being in the presence of the Ziost dark side nexus doesn’t remotely compensate.

Since when has “largest” been synonymous with “most potent”?* The Old Republic Encyclopedia’s description of the ritual nexus only denotes its size, not its potency. It’s amusing how #teamswtor still can’t get a grasp on such a simple concept as… words.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 1

That aside, no dark side nexus has ever shown the effects you are describing. You’re essentially arguing character X can go from being one-shotted by character Y (spirit unchained Vaylin versus spirit Valkorion) to likely one-shotting character Y (physical unchained Vaylin versus spirit Valkorion) by simply being on a moderately potent dark side nexus.

You’re baselessly assuming that Ziost is only “moderately” powerful when in reality its potency is undefined.* And no, my argument has historical precedent: the Valley of the Jedi was a Force nexus powerful enough to enable Jerec to “achieve near-omniscience, or even destroy a star” (link).

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 2

And even if my suggestion had no historical precedent it would not be invalidated. You’re committing the fallacy of appealing to ignorance* by asserting that my suggestion is false because it has not been proven true. In a reality where my suggestion had no evidence backing it it would still not be false but merely unknown, and as such, you would be unable to conclude anything either way.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 1

Now, to make my argument perfectly clear, I am not claiming Ziost necessarily is potent enough to elevate spirit Vitiate above his corporeal counterpart, so you cannot shift the burden of proof on me. I am merely pointing out the fact that because the nexus’ intensity is unquantifiable, your claim that Ziost is less potent than the Medriaas nexus the Shit Emperor assimilated into his being falls apart. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and yours has none.



Addendum: You’ve destroyed your own case by posting the scan about Revan’s machine core backlash, which stated that he was “Stunned and unable to act” after it blew in his face. If a blast only capable of dealing “massive damage to enemies within 1km” - and possibly much weaker than that, as I’ll soon explain - is enough to push a stupendously amped Revan to his limits, I wonder how unamped base Revan could ever be scaled anywhere near, much less above, this:



You tell me.

B) WILLPOWER

I absolutely do not buy you’ve never seen any quotes pertaining to the one kilometer-radius blast before.

I obviously had seen the statements in your RT and elsewhere, but the point I was making is that I had never seen them in the actual game. It wasn’t some shady stalling tactic that I started to legitimately question their authenticity for not seeing them appear anywhere in the dozens of videos I had watched about Shadow of Revan.

I’m baffled by the first four sentences; I have no clue what you’re even responding to. As for your dark side nexus argument, it doesn’t make sense. The omnipresent dark side energies of Yavin 4 would be included in Revan's channel of energy. The “inconceivably powerful” nexus energies would likewise be apart of the “overloading” or “backlashing” against him.

I’m equally baffled by your entire argument because it makes even less sense. You argue that the energies Revan channeled would also be affected by the Yavin nexus, balancing out Revan being amped. But the blast had the intensity to ravage life in a one-kilometer-radius on Yavin IV, so if we remove the nexus, it would not have been nearly as potent. Thus, Revan tanking it would have, aside from being far less impressive, been indeterminate. And if we remove the nexus amp from Revan, then there’s no proof he could even have tanked it at all as he was pushed to the edge of his strength even when amped to high heavens.



Not to mention that the attack would only have been that potent “upon successful completion.” Since Revan’s channel was broken before that happened, the backlash wasn’t as intense, and the thus whole feat is entirely unquantifiable.

C) REVAN VS THE SHIT EMPEROR

Revan states, “She gave me strength to resist all this time,” which is absolutely true. However, you ignore that Vitiate was actively Force draining Revan. Without an energy source to counteract the drain, Revan’s powers would quickly deplete, rendering him incapable of defending against Vitiate’s constantly-replenishing powers. Meetra explicitly functioned as that counterbalance: “As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her.”

I didn’t ignore anything. If Meetra is constantly “refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war,” and Revan had his powers constantly return to their natural state as you yourself state in your next paragraph, then at best it proves he can resist the Shit Emperor for an unspecified amount of time after which his mind is restored to his peak capacity by Meetra. You have absolutely no proof Revan could have endured for 300 years without having his mental powers continually renewed to their maximum.

Meetra’s stream of energy “refreshed” and “restored” Revan “whenever he grew weak,” meaning Meetra’s not amplifying Revan’s powers, just returning them to its natural state. Meanwhile, Vitiate is, according to you, growing continuously stronger. Thus, it must be Revan’s own growth, clearly brought forth through nigh-endless usage of Force and exertion of will, that allows him to remain in lock-step with Vitiate. Otherwise, the power discrepancy between an equalized Revan and strengthening Vitiate would constantly expand until Vitiate’s powers far surpassed and completely overpowered Revan’s.

The Exile repeatedly states that Revan’s “strength will fail,” which would not happen if he were growing more powerful continually (link). His success, aside from having his psyche repeatedly revitalized as explained above, is simply explained by the Shit Emperor’s incompetence with telepathy similar to Corran Horn being unskilled in telekinesis. In a normal confrontation, Failkorion utterly lays waste to the Outlander (links 1 and 2), yet admits to being incapable of mentally enslaving him (link). The Outlander resisted Failkorion, yet wasn’t anywhere close to being as powerful otherwise. Thus, Revan resisting the Shit Emperor doesn’t prove he is on the latter’s level either.
Seeing as you didn’t address Revan counter-draining Vitiate at all, I assume it’s a concession, then.*

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 1

D) TELEPATHY

Dare I suggest a Sith Lord capable of dominating the minds of hundreds of Jedi and siphoning their powers might be comparable to Maul, Dooku, or Vader?

You’ve proven that Morrhage created a link between himself and hundreds of Jedi, but you’re hastily jumping to an unvalidated conclusion by claiming that he actively dominated them all at once.* Yuon Par had noted some time before the Consular storyline began that she’d been ill, and after she finally succumbs to the sickness, Syo Bakarn notes that she is “resting comfortably” (link 1 and 2). Once the player arrives at the hospital, however, Yuon is seen rambling (link), but later on Attros Finn notes how there have been no more outbursts like that (link). When Yuon is being mind controlled and starts rambling again, Attros tells the player that she was placid beforehand, and that the outburst came all of a sudden without warning (link). The fact that there are periods of calmness proves Morrhage isn’t dominating the plague victims continuously. The best we’ve seen from him is controlling one individual at a time, and so that’s the most Revan scales above.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 3

II. ATTACK OF THE APPRENTICE

A) THE CORELLIAN CORVETTE

On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice encounters a massive ship that’s blocking his access to the junk Jedi Temple, and notes that he would take hours to run around it on foot (link) - consider how fast Force users can go when they augment their speed with the Force, and a picture of the ship’s size may begin to form in your head. To solve his conundrum, he instead supercharges the engines with lightning and moves the entire bulk of the ship out of the way (link). Essentially, the Apprentice’s lightning generated enough joules for the corvette to move the same distance in seconds/minutes that would’ve taken the Apprentice’s Force augmented speed hours, and had enough residual potency for the ship to have moved dozens of seconds even after that.

B) KAZDAN PARATUS

On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice confronts an army of droid golems which he forms a hurricane out of (link). Note that these are not your typical droids, but puppets animated by Kazdan Paratus’ Force abilities (link). Through Paratus, the droid golems were able to utilize telekinesis, Force shield and Force drain (link), making them basically identical to typical Force users. It would not be inaccurate to say that the Apprentice outright ragdolled a bonafide army of Force users numbering in the “thousands,” which were capable of holding off the forces of the Galactic Empire for years (link). After disposing of Paratus’ minions, the Apprentice comes face-to-face with the Jedi, and ragdolls him too (link).

C) THE FAUX JEDI TEMPLE

After his fight with Kazdan Paratus, the Apprentice muses how he could level the Jedi’s junk Jedi Temple with a single Force push (link). The Temple was stated by Juno Eclipse to look exactly like the real one on Coruscant (link), which is one kilometer in height (link), and while they may not be completely identical, it is still obviously of similar proportions.

D) SHAAK TI

During the Apprentice’s fight with Shaak Ti, special note was given to the Jedi Master’s ability to telepathically dominate all life on Felucia, a planet completely overgrown with vegetation (link), the natives of which are all inherently Force sensitive (link) and spread across the entire planet (link), with the most powerful ones being “among the most talented natural Force-users in the galaxy” (link), and she had even nerfed their connection to the Force (link). The effect her death had on the planet is accounted in great detail, further demonstrating her influence over the entire biosphere (link).Yet, the Apprentice overpowers her with a Force repulse, with the following comments emphasizing his superiority: “Shaak Ti’s command over Felucia was impressive. She communed with its native species, commanding its flora and fauna to attack. But even with an entire planet at her command, she could not hold Starkiller. No one could…” (link). And given Shaak Ti had turned the planet into a light side nexus (link), the Apprentice, as a darksider, would have been hindered during the feat.

With Revan getting incapacitated by a backlash far less powerful than an explosion capable of harming life in a 1 km radius, failing to scale near the Shit Emperor, and merely scaling above the lame feat of dominating a single Jedi Master, it becomes hard to imagine him replicating any of the showings above. I haven’t seen Revan move a giant starship with his lightning; I haven’t seen him ragdoll an army of Force users; I haven’t seen him level the Jedi Temple with a single Force push; and I haven’t seen him combat planetary Jedi while hindered and win. So I don’t think I am being crazy (you certainly don’t have any credibility to call me that after suggesting a footnote of a Sith like Lord Vivicar is comparable to Darth Sidious’ apprentices) when I say I don’t picture him doing as well against Galen Marek than, let’s say, Rahm Kota:

He raised his left hand and with the power of the dark side unleashed a bolt of Sith lightning at the renegade Jedi.

Kota only laughed. Raising his left hand in a move that was a mirror image of the apprentice's own, he sent the lightning arcing back to its source. The energy struck both of them, hurling them apart.

The apprentice broke off the attempt, blinking smoke away from his eyes. His anger intensified. He was the first to his feet and running as soon as his boots touched the deck. He felt completely weightless, yet full of momentum, like a hurled spear. His red blade cut a blur through the air, aimed hard at Kota's throat.

The Jedi general ducked and swept his green lightsaber up and down in a lazy attempt to catch him as he went by. That was a move the apprentice had long ago learned to avoid by tucking his head down closer to his center of gravity and rolling in midair, then kicking himself back at his opponent off the nearest wall. This time he pushed telekinetically as he came, attempting to knock Kota's feet out from under him before bringing his blade to bear.

Again, however, Kota deflected his Force energies back at him. Again they were pushed apart.

More cautiously the apprentice circled him, slicing chairs to pieces as he walked and sending the glowing fragments at his enemy's head. Anger made him eager to attack, but he knew better than to give in to it. He hadn't been humiliated. He had successfully tested Kota's defenses. Now that he knew a direct attack would probably fail, he had to find another way to get closer to the man. Or to make the Jedi come to him.

All Galen can get out of Kota with his telekinetic and lightning assaults is a chuckle. Yes, this happened before any of Marek’s aforementioned feats, but as soon as Marek reports his successes to Vader, the Dark Lord immediately sends him off on another errand (links 1 and 2). Marek’s fight with Shaak Ti takes place only weeks after his duel with Kota at best. It would be a huge stretch to argue any sort of large gap between Nar Shaddaa Marek and Felucia Marek when such has never been stated to exist. Marek is pretty much operating on the same power level against Ti that he did against Kota, yet the Jedi General is able to stalemate him in a Force battle. Kota should thus logically be able to duplicate all of the feats I listed for Marek.



Ragdolling a Jedi Master capable of leveling facsimile Jedi Temples and mentally dominating planetary biospheres? Darth Vader is up to the task. He was also stated to be far beyond the Emperor’s Shadow Guards, one of which was able to match Galen Marek in "a clash of sparks and lightning” and prove to be “tough work” until Marek cheap-shot him (link), so this is further proof Vader is substantially more powerful than that iteration of Marek. Unfortunately for Revan, I don’t think I can say the same of him.

III. REVENGE OF THE ACCOLADES

Per Lucas, because of the injuries Vader suffered on Mustafar, “From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor.” This indicates both that pre-suit Vader was as strong as the Emperor, and that post-suit Vader never again achieved such a level of power.

No shit Vader never became as powerful as the Emperor after his reconstruction. However, you baselessly assume this exclusively refers to the Emperor as of Revenge of the Sith.* Lucas mentions Luke’s ability overthrow the Emperor at the beginning in present tense and at the end in future tense, but refers to Revenge of the Sith in past tense, so it is more likely he is talking about the timeframe of the Original Trilogy. The Emperor continued to amass more power after Revenge of the Sith (link), so Vader never again equaling his Master doesn’t preclude him surpassing earlier iterations like RotS.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 4

Lucas is discussing Vader's strength and notes that he's not as strong as the Emperor. Still discussing strength, Lucas compounds that notion by saying Vader's strength is now like Maul or Dooku. We can infer that Lucas isn't just randomly noting that Maul and Dooku also aren't as strong as the Emperor - a self-evident fact - in a paragraph all about Vader's strength. That would be completely off-topic. Rather, Lucas is clearly using Maul and Dooku as a reference point for Vader's new powers. That's the only realistic way to interpret it.

There’s nothing grammatically inaccurate about interpreting Lucas’ statement as meaning Vader “is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku” in that he’s not “as strong as the Emperor” the same as them, rather than Vader “is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku” in that he’s exactly as strong as them. Lucas mentioning them as examples makes sense as they were both Darth Sidious’ apprentices who failed to live up to their potential - which is what the entire quote is about: people with the potential to eclipse the Emperor. There’s a thematic correspondence between them and Vader: “he is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He’s not what he was supposed to become.”

And even were Vader only on the level of Darth Maul, that would still leave him better off than Revan. Remember that little quote about Shadow Guards not being a threat to Vader I posted at the start? It also stated Shadow Guards are less powerful than Asajj Ventress (link). This extends the powerscale I created with Galen being at the bottom, equaled/surpassed by Ventress who got her ribs casually smashed by Obi-Wan Kenobi (link) who in turn got ragdolled by Darth Maul (link), someone whose level Vader is around according to yourself.

I think it’s hilarious you don’t stop and consider if you’re misinterpreting events; instead, you default into arguing that almost a dozen major sources are wrong and retconned into oblivion.

All I’ve done here is adhere to the rules that we both - yes, that also means you - agreed on yet you chastise me to no end. But when you do the exact same thing you mock me for by attempting to delete seven quotes making suit Darth Vader more powerful than RotS Anakin Skywalker (link) by citing only a single Lucas quote, suddenly it is “the only realistic way to interpret it”?



There’s more than one valid way to view Lucas’ statement, and my interpretation is actually inclusive of the vast wealth of evidence stating suit Vader is above Anakin Skywalker - evidence you’ve failed to topple. Anakin was already “as strong as the Emperor” according to Lucas himself, so Vader being above the former would by extension place him beyond RotS Sidious in power. That expands the earlier powerscale further since Sidious can ragdoll Maul (link), but more importantly it canonically places Vader vastly out of Revan’s reach since he is factually above the most powerful Sith and Jedi in history.

IV. A NEW MASTERY

Equally? Once Galen Marek “understands a better way to kill” and proclaims, “I don't need to hate you in order to beat you,” the fight becomes completely and increasingly one-sided. The text even marks the shift: “With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot,” strikes Vader repeatedly in a short span of time, then telekinetically dominates him.

Yes, equally. That’s what the text states. You’re right about Galen getting a second wind of sorts but leave out Vader’s mental state completely.* Marek successfully unbalanced Vader with taunts right before the tables began to turn (link). This would have undoubtedly factored negatively into his performance a great deal as HK-47 states (links 1 and 2).

*OUT OF CONTEXT COUNTER: 1

However, I saw no rebuttal to Vader indeed fighting equally with Marek before the inclusion of psychological warfare. Vader does legitimately scale to all that Marek has done with the Force up to that point, such as blowing up a lightsaber-resistant rancor (link), powering a cannon that puts a hole in an ISD and brings down a superstructure (link), and yanking down an ISD from the sky (links 1 and 2). And Vader’s fought and beaten Galen’s clones too. The primary Starkiller clone - who is just as powerful as the original Marek (link) - he outright ragdolls (link), and if you remember, the Emperor couldn’t manhandle Marek the same way in the first game. The novelization describes Marek catching the Emperor’s lightning with his hands and advancing toward him, resulting in the Emperor feeling desperate. Vader in The Force Unleashed II outright does a feat the Emperor in the first Force Unleashed couldn’t do. The conclusion to be drawn from this is twofold:

1. Darth Vader is, by feats, more powerful than the Emperor’s Revenge of the Sith incarnation, the most powerful Sith Lord in history and an equal of Anakin Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in history. Per the debate rules, feats are the supreme authority as far as evidence goes, trumping all contradictory statements, even ones from George Lucas.
   
2. The fact that he can go from being significantly less powerful than TFU Palpatine to being significantly more powerful than TFU Palpatine in just one year (link) proves Darth Vader does grow in lockstep with the Emperor. His annual growth rate would thus be humongous and essentially render everything prior to Return of the Jedi as low showings for him.
   

The all-too-common counter to this is that Starkiller was exhausted before he fought Vader. The myth that it had a negative impact on his power needs to die. The game has him screaming like a madman mere seconds before Vader Force grips him, and the novel notes how he was “howling with rage” which is echoed by the Prima Official Game Guide (link). Historically, Force rage has been enough to erase any and all feelings of enervation, such as in the cases of Dessel and Maul (link; it’s not a stretch to assume that Starkiller would be amped when losing Juno to Boba Fett sent him into a Force Rage earlier (link), and here has just witnessed - in his mind - her get killed by his most hated enemy), so Starkiller was at full power when Vader tossed him aside “like a ragdoll” (link). And to make this clear, Vader manhandled Starkiller because he was “too powerful,” not because Starkiller forgot to put his Force defences up or whatever. His superiority is also demonstrated when he tanks a rage-amped Starkiller’s lightning barrage for 30 seconds without sustaining any lethal injuries (link), which is consistent with the Prima Official Game Guide’s description of Vader rendering most of Starkiller’s Force attacks useless (link). Far less powerful blasts have been able to penetrate Vader’s insulation (link), so going by your logic, Vader is actually holding his body together through sheer will, since apparently internal organs aren’t covered by a Force shield (link), which is news to me but I’m okay with it because it means Vader’s will exceeds Revan’s given Starkiller’s lightning is vastly more powerful than the backlash that incapacitated an amped Revan (link).

Darth Vader has also beaten the Dark Apprentice (link, they both have their lightsabers drawn, the Dark Apprentice is humbled and kneeling before Vader, smoking and with cuts on his cheek and arm; anyone's who's taken classes in visual analysis should recognize this as the aftermath of a duel) - someone more powerful than the original Galen Marek “ever was” which would include Oneness. This showing is bereft of any circumstances like fatigue, so you cannot wiggle around it. It’s as clear cut as one could be. Therefore, Vader by feats is capable of defeating someone more powerful than Oneness Marek who is more powerful than base Marek and made his efforts with the dark side “look like those of a child.” The only argument against this that I can see is appealing to the idea that the dark side ending is non-canon. But no one is arguing Starkiller dying by the Dark Apprentice’s hand is what actually happened in continuity. However, the cinematics that showcase the Dark Apprentice’s backstory exist independently of whether the player chooses the light or dark side ending, as does the vision Starkiller has in the novelization that likewise acknowledges the Dark Apprentice’s existence. The only thing that is non-canon here is Darth Vader’s backup plan coming to fruition, but the plan itself, his training and defeating of the Dark Apprentice, etc. are real.



Before he could complete the move, a red blade erupted from his chest, exactly as it had in a former life, on the Empirical. Only this time his former Master couldn't have wielded it. He still knelt before him, awaiting the death blow.

The pain and shock were too great. Starkiller arched backward, lightsabers falling from his hands. With an agonized cry, he crumpled to the ground, and stared up at the man who had killed him.

It was himself.

Darth Vader rose to his feet. Blasterfire erupted around them. Starkiller heard screams and cries and the sound of people falling. The battle was intense but short-lived, and he had eyes only for the pair in black looming over him.

"I lied when I told you that the cloning process had not been perfected."

His former Master's words fell like blows upon his stricken form. The version of himself standing at the Dark Lord's side was upright and whole in even way. The Sith training uniform he wore was immaculate and lethally adorned. The two red lightsabers held crossed over his chest didn't waver a millimeter as their eyes locked.

Starkiller's breath was growing shallow. The fire that had burned in him was dying, as it always died in the end. The dark side consumed everything. Hatred was never a substitute for love, and the price of pursuing it was life itself.

In the corner of his view, lying drenched in the rain, lay a limp, shattered form. He could not bear to look at it. Instead he clutched the burning hole in his chest and watched the Dark Lord give his new apprentice his first orders.

"You have faced your final test."

The reborn Starkiller knelt at the Dark Lord's feet. "What is thy bidding, my Master?"

"Take the Rogue Shadow. Scour the far reaches of the galaxy. Find the last of the Rebels and destroy them."

"As you wish."

"Then, and only then, will you achieve your destiny."

The new apprentice rose and walked away, stepping over Juno's body as be went. Kota's body lay nearby, and PROXY'S, sliced neatly in two. Darth Vader looked down at Starkiller's body and, with a contemptuous flick of his wrist, sent it skidding over the edge of the platform and into the sea.

The last thing Starkiller saw was storm clouds and lightning far above, as he had on the first day of his freedom, just days ago.

V. VADER STRIKES BACK

Take off your tinfoil hat. In a post of dozens of points, sometimes some slip through. I didn’t intentionally “ignore” your twenty percent argument.

Sure, you can say that and try to weasel yourself out of every imbroglio like a politician but actions speak louder than words. The fact remains you left it unaddressed in your first post. And since history has a tendency to repeat itself, it’s fitting you would also abstain from countering my argument against the idea that Ben Kenobi would still be more powerful than Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back.* And this time you literally quoted my words too, so it’s kind of hard for anyone to buy the excuse that the point just slipped through.

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 2

And indeed, it’d make little sense for Ben to still be Vader’s superior by the time of The Empire Strikes Back when the Dark Lord is labelled “equally formidable” to the Emperor during the events of the movie:



As for Ben still being Vader’s better during A New Hope, that only works if he’s stronger than he was in Revenge of the Sith because of the quotes declaring Vader to be more powerful than Anakin. Since those quotes are far more numerous than the ones stating Obi-Wan had grown weaker, they take precedence, alongside Vader’s feats in The Force Unleashed II which also position him beyond Anakin.

In fact, I love when members cite that. By itself, it’s impossible to discern what being eighty percent of the Emperor means; we have no reference point. Is zero percent a normal human? Is fifty percent a Jedi padawan? Considering the context isn’t even meant to hype up Vader - just read the full quote, as posted below - a full twenty percent difference can easily mean a tremendous gap in power.

Your entire argument is a hilarious double standard.* You treat Lucas’ Force levels like a Biblical fundamentalist yet go on a rant about how Lucas’ 80% is ambiguous and its meaning “impossible to discern.” You do realize that these Force levels are just as ambiguous, arbitrary and vague as the percentages, do you? We have no idea whether the levels operate on a linear scale, an exponential one, a logarithmic one, or something completely different. There is nothing there that indicates Ben is “vastly” beyond Vader like you think.**

*FALLACY COUNTER: 2
**BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 5

Also, it’s curious you center your argument around the ambiguity of “maybe” when it’s referring to Ben relative to Vader, but ignore the “maybe” in Vader being “maybe 20 percent less than” the Emperor.

Dude, the entire premise of my argument was that the inexact language in your quote would force you to accept any and all statements of similar wording as fact, which is why I brought up the 80% quote in the first place. I fully acknowledged the imprecise terminology as it served as the very foundation of my point. Reading comprehension, much?

Also, Lawrence Kasdan, who co-wrote The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi with Lucas, and therefore has intimate knowledge of Lucas’ vision from extensive story conferences, notes that the Emperor is “much more powerful than Vader” in a co-interview with Lucas. So, the same person developing and writing the scene of the Emperor’s death doesn’t think Vader’s display is indicative of him having powers comparable to the Emperor.

All that denotes is that the gap isn’t miniscule but that’s it. It doesn’t establish Vader would get ragdolled, one-shot, or anything so what exactly are you trying to achieve here by citing it? It’s vague as hell.

Vader’s own thoughts deteriorated as well. In Rise of Darth Vader, Vader believes he will one day rival the Emperor. However, Vader eventually accepts that ”he could not hope to defeat” and “had no reason to ever believe he could defeat” the Emperor. Had Vader been comparably powerful to the Emperor and grown lock-step with him, this sentiment makes little sense.

If they’re both growing at roughly the same rate but Vader began less powerful than the Emperor, then of course he can’t catch up. Nothing here debunks the idea Vader grew in lockstep with the latter like you nonsensically conclude.*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 6

Even during Return of the Jedi, Vader thought of the Emperor as literally “omniscient” and “no longer dared to even entertain thoughts of rebellion” given how powerful the Emperor had become, indicating the gap between the Emperor and Vader was larger than ever before.

That statement is blatantly wrong as Vader plots to oust the Emperor in Return of the Jedi in the very room his Master is sitting in:

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.

Even if it were true, it once again wouldn’t debunk my argument since I’m not arguing Vader could have beaten the Emperor on his own. All I’m advocating for is that Vader wouldn’t get flicked to oblivion by a single attack; that he can stand his ground for maybe 20 or so seconds before going down considering how he fared without an active Force defence. Your statement doesn’t contradict that idea.

-- which doesn’t suggest anything about Vader’s power relative to the Emperor, considering Sheev was even “troubled by Asajj Ventress' growing prowess with the dark side of the Force.” He’s all about preserving his power and fearing betrayal, withholding knowledge from even the simpleton dark side adepts so that there is no conceivable way anyone could encroach him.

You’re committing the fallacy of false equivalency.* The statement about Asajj Ventress refers to what she could become hence Sidious being worried about her “growing prowess with the dark side.” Vader’s case is about his current power which does indeed position him near the Emperor’s league.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 3

The Emperor’s optimism over Vader quickly dies off. The Emperor later writes that Vader could ”never” succeed him, that he “had wanted an apprentice, not wanted a walking wound,” and that he is looking through a lowly ”pool of minor wizards and political sycophants” for a replacement.

The Emperor wanted someone more powerful than himself as an apprentice according to George Lucas. Being a disappointment in the Emperor’s eyes doesn’t demean Vader relative to Revan nor does it mean Vader isn’t comparably powerful to his Master like his statements and feats suggest.

VI. RETURN OF THE LIGHTNING TANKING

A) WEAKENED

According to your very own word, Darth Vader’s will doesn’t dictate reality (link). Therefore, him “focusing solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor” doesn’t mean any reality-warping was done in the vein of Anakin Skywalker willing Count Dooku to lose as the Revenge of the Sith novelization described it. It was solely a physical feat, and thus all of Vader’s gathered Force energy would have gone into physical augmentation. And since his body was weakened and his physical strength wasn’t at its maximum, per once again yourself and other canonical sources (link), it would therefore mean he wasn’t able to channel enough Force power to augment his physicals to their usual level, meaning that Vader wasn’t operating on his standard level and was weakened when performing this feat.

How does it feel to know you’ve debunked your own arguments and validated mine?

I’m amused you think Vader “focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act” across the span of “minutes” is not a big deal, yet believe Luke simply being passively amplified by dark emotions produces astronomic discrepancies in his power. Attacks unleashed in combat reflect the energies an individual can summon at a moment’s notice. Vader charging up his power hundreds of times longer than normal places him at an utterly unnatural level of power. Even if we assume Vader’s, in general, less powerful than normal, it still logically holds the power he wields after gathering and focusing his weakened strength for minutes far supersedes the power he could summon with his standard strength in a split second

Your double standards are once again on full display*: you argue that Galen Marek simply “understand[ing] a better way to kill” and proclaiming “I don’t need hate in order to beat you” made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with, yet ridicule the notion that Luke drawing on his rage would grant him an epic boost even though the idea is the same.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 4

And I never said Vader focusing his power wasn’t a big deal; don't strawman me.* My point was that because Vader was “weaker than he’d ever been” (link), you have absolutely no way to ascertain whether him accumulating his power would place him above his natural strength or not. And you still don’t, because you didn’t actually respond to my argument, just regurgitated the same baseless vomit from your last post.** Why should we conclude Vader, when he’s even weaker than when he was burning on Mustafar, gathering his energies for minutes makes him more powerful than full power RotJ Vader? You haven’t offered any sort of proof, just assertively acting like you saying so means it must be true. It doesn't.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 5
**BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7

George Lucas himself validates every argument I’ve made thus far. “Vader is not powerful enough to kill the Emperor,” but is able to “out of the super energy of wanting to protect his son.” So much for that idea Vader’s weakened when he’s described as having literal “super energy” relative to his normal sense. How does it feel to be wrong about literally everything you wrote?

That statement is in the context of the aftermath of Luke and Vader’s duel (link). Even after being empowered by “the super energy,” Vader is still weakened (“remaining strength”; “the Dark Lord’s weakened body”; “a crippled Vader”), which you’ve admitted yourself, so are you actually advocating for the idea that if a statement doesn’t mention the context of the scene it is referencing, that context should be ignored? That’s not how debating works.

*OUT OF CONTEXT COUNTER: 2

You do realize Vader still has to live long enough to kill the Emperor? Resistance is inherently apart of the act. It’s utterly baseless to conclude he only used a passive Force barrier

If Darth Vader is focusing “solely and sightlessly on his will” “to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor,” he was, factually, not consciously focusing his will on anything else except the Emperor’s demise. Your rebuttal is nonsensical; yes, he has to live to accomplish his objective, but to conclude from that that he was actively focused on surviving is the fallacy of defective induction.* Vader can still live and not be protecting himself - all it indicates is that he can withstand the Emperor’s power with his passive defences.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 6

B) DARTH VADER VS LUKE SKYWALKER

Since we have established Darth Vader was weakened when he accomplished the feat of tanking the Emperor’s lightning and hurling him to his death, yet Luke at full power succumbed to much lesser intensity, we can safely conclude the father to be far more powerful than the son by way of feats, the highest form of evidence per the debate rules.

Quotes stating Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader are “equally strong in the Force” clearly establish a default position for the characters and aren't referring to any circumstantial amps.

Once again, you simply can’t ignore the context of the scene that the statements are referring to even if the quotes themselves omit it. Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader specifies that even during the brief skirmish you cited from the film, Luke was still amped by his rage: “Again the young Jedi allowed his anger to bleed away,” which is stated right after Luke disengages and jumps to the catwalk (link); if Luke was able to let “his anger bleed away,” there must have been anger in the first place. Admittedly it is a little odd how Luke mere moments ago calmed himself (which the same source acknowledges), yet seconds later would be angry once more, but that is what the source states and so we must go with it. Thus, he was amped throughout the entire fight with Vader and all your quotes must be referring to Luke being Vader’s equal only when he’s enraged. Otherwise they’d be contradicted by their respective feats and thrown out the window.

Further, almost every source, including the script and Vader himself, identifies the reason of Luke’s newfound power against Vader as his personal growth between Bespin and Endor, not him unknowingly drawing on the dark side: “But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim,” “Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter,” “He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel,” “The young Jedi has grown in the interim,” etc. The revised Official Star Wars Fact File 5 (which was published before the Canon / Legends split, so it’s still apart of the Legends continuity) even states, “As father and son faced each other in a lightsaber duel, it was clear that the younger man had now developed powers that equaled his father’s,” outright confirming Luke “had developed” powers that equaled Vader’s, confirming they’re not a result of any amplifier but the product of his accelerated training. At best, Luke passively drawing on darker emotions contributed in the fight shifting from “a battle of equals” to Luke “gaining the advantage” and kicking Vader down the stairs. Fact remains, though, that Luke is at least equally strong as Vader in the Force, so my comparison holds.

Absolutely nothing there states Luke gained powers that equaled his father’s through personal growth. He may very well have “grown stronger in the interim” by drawing on dark emotions, “acquired” newfound strength via rage, “developed powers that equaled his father’s” via dark side anger etc. Nothing actually straight up says he got to that level via just training and experience.

C) THE EMPEROR’S FULL POWER

Darth Vader endured the Emperor’s full potency. You haven’t repudiated this fact in our current debate, but you did do so in your debate with The Ellimist over on KMC, so to avoid you messing up everything with your final post that I can’t respond to within the confines of this debate, I’ll prove right now that the Emperor was indeed channelling all of his power into his lightning. I’ve already provided the scan from the Dark Empire Endnotes stating that Vader tanked “the full force” of the lightning. This has two possible interpretations: full potency and full impact. The latter interpretation denotes that Vader merely tanked the amount/magnitude that was hitting Luke, which actively goes against the idea that Vader endured its full potency. However, if he had merely been struck by the full impact of the lightning torturing Luke, he wouldn’t have died. Luke was electrocuted for far longer than Vader yet survived; Vader was electrocuted for a far shorter period than Luke yet died - the full impact interpretation simply doesn’t add up and is contradicted by what actually occurred in the story. Thus, the only remaining the interpretation is the full potency one.

But wouldn’t the fact that Vader was weakened explain why he died so quickly, invalidating my argument? No, because Luke had his active defences breached by even the smallest fraction of the lightning’s potency, and was toppled to the floor and started convulsing uncontrollably as the bolts’ intensity increased. Vader could actually walk through the Emperor’s lightning barrage without breaking stride with his passive defences, and him being weakened doesn’t take away from that. So even while weakened, Vader is still Luke’s vast superior, and therefore the full impact interpretation makes no sense, and we are left with the full potency one.

FINAL WORD

We’ve seen Revan’s factual limit when he was briefly incapacitated by a backlash less powerful than an explosion capable of damaging life in a 1 km radius, while amped to an obscene degree. Baseline Revan would therefore suffer much more serious injuries from the blast and there’s no real proof he could even have survived it. He is also canonically less powerful than the Shit Emperor, and your method of scaling him near the latter is faulty. For Revan’s actual feats, he gets some shoddy scaling from Lord Vivicar who can dominate a single Jedi Master telepathically, and he blasted Darth Nyriss to ash. His all-time best feat appears to be defeating Darth Malak on the Star Forge.

Then we have Darth Vader consistently contending with and beating Yoda-tier Force users in Galen Marek, Starkiller, and the Dark Apprentice. Each of them can make the Galactic Emperor struggle, and their environmental feats make a nuke capable of harming life in a 1 km radius look like ass, yet Vader can tool every single one of them way before his prime. A total of seven or more accolades also proclaim him to be stronger than his Jedi self who was already on the Emperor’s level then, and the Emperor expressed distress over Vader’s power rivalling his own on top of which Vader was deemed “equally formidable” to his Master during the events of The Empire Strikes Back. His all-time best feat is enduring the Emperor’s full power lightning barrage for ten seconds with a passive Force barrier while weakened, and surviving, only dying from his wounds later on.

I don’t enjoy entertaining mismatches. It gets infuriating when the other person attempts to obnoxiously nitpick away every single thing the lore says about a character - and employ a half a dozen logical fallacies and generally poor and/or dishonest debating tactics along the way - to scramble together some monstrosity of an argument that is somehow supposed to be an advantage over that axiomatically, and sometimes factually, superior character. There exist certain fights within the Star Wars mythos with little to no genuine discussion value that should be kept locked away in a vault never to be opened and the key to that vault should be secured in a strongbox sunken to the bottom of the Mariana Trench where it ought to lay forgotten till the end of time.

The more and more I type, the more I realize how inadequate most characters are compared to Vader; he has every base covered. And I truly mean that because even if you refute a feat or two of his, the rest remain along his accolades. That is why I can afford to argue outlandish positions and take hits as I have with the reality-warping willpower argument - because it doesn’t hinder me in the slightest and more often than not actually ends up bolstering Vader in other aspects. The inverse is true for Revan, where you are forced to fight tooth and nail over every miniscule feat of his, and I can simply let you have your way without fear of repercussions as I have with the idea of him growing more powerful leading up to Shadow of Revan - it is not important and I needed to save space.

I could concede all of your pro-Revan arguments and let him be a casual planet eater, and even then be winning the debate, because Revan would still be inferior to Vader due to his canonical constraints beneath Darth Sidious, Yoda, Anakin Skywalker and the likes. And that’s where the crux of this debate lies: every piece of evidence I have presented for Vader, be it a feat or an accolade, places him definitively above Revan by itself; whereas no piece of evidence you have presented for Revan conclusively positions him beyond Darth Vader, even collectively. Essentially, you can present the most wonderous, fantastical case for Revan imaginable accompanied by the most beautiful rhetoric mankind has ever witnessed, but so long as even a single pro-Vader piece of evidence remains, Revan will always lose this fight, because - and I believe we both know this by now, even if you cannot admit it to yourself - he is simply a fundamentally, congenitally, and primordially lesser character in every way, shape, and form.

All I’m saying is that, instead of obstinately continuing to argue a hilariously implausible position, perhaps you should consider quitting this debate and just go home. Accept Revan’s limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, inferiority, and move on. That’s all.