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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 4:19 pm
That's me done writing essays for the day. I'll reply to any responses tomorrow or the day after.
DarthAnt66
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 5:23 pm
You're comparing carefully moderated beams that allowed Vaylin to begin unlocking her full power a few seconds after they hit her to a wall of unstable and reactive energy rushing towards a weakened Outlander and Lana.

The "wall of unstable and reactive energy" you're referring to are stray bolts previously roiling and bouncing off the sphere of power enveloping Vaylin: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2_M0CUhtU&t=13m17s

No. You paraphrased, and in doing so altered the intent and the context of the quote, creating a misleading picture of what Valk said.

Both of my quotes were direct quotes.

>Valkorion says he'll do what he can to protect them while struggling to manifest himself even while in orbit.
> Lana, upon entering the asylum's walls, expresses severe discomfort and feeling like the void is trying to tear her apart.
> The Outlander claims Valk will protect them.
> Lana responds that she "hopes" he can.

...How does that in any way discount the idea that Valk was only able to partially protect them, especially since he was not only barely able to manifest on the planet but also explicitly said he would do "all that he can", AKA he'd try his best? His best clearly wasn't good enough as Lana and the Outlander (see the first option where he says "the Force feels wrong here" or something along those lines) expressed severe discomfort and nausea at the void's effects.

"All That I Can" and to "shield you and your companions from the worst effects of the void." How many times do I have to keep repeating this? At best, he protected them from going insane within a few minutes, again suggested by his admission that the void's pull, even by his standards, was "powerful". That does not in any way contradict the idea that they were weakened.

And, as I've said many times, Valkorion also stated he's "keeping the Void at bay" with "nearly all [his] strength." By definition, "keep at bay" means "to control something and prevent it from causing you problems" or "to prevent something or someone unpleasant from coming too near you or harming you." That indicates he shielded the Outlander from much of the effects. You can even reconcile this with "the worst effects" to mean he shielded them from literally "the worst effects" but not the more tolerable or negligible effects (which is a perfectly legitimate interpretation, as far as I can tell). Feel free to disagree and interpret it in other ways -- there's certainly room for other takes -- but let me say this: No framing will ever compensate for the Outlander running from a fraction of what Vaylin tanked for minutes. 

Rigghht, and we know that the Outlander would have been one-shotted because he ran from a wall of unstable energy which he had no clue what it was, right? Do I need to point out that even spirit Valk disappeared rather than face it, even though it was purely physical? No idiot just stands as a wall of what looks like deadly energy rushes towards them, regardless of whether they could or could not tank it.

The Outlander said the energy would have turned him to ash. 

You're absolutely right. The Emperor's Wrath was a light side tier V do-gooder who only wanted to be a peacemaker. Totally a fair equivalence to the smuggler not having his neck instantly snapped.

The Emperor's Wrath is dead. And his dark-side storyline would have Dramath (who hurt Valkorion more than Vaylin or Arcann ever did) fighting alongside him. If we want to use that, I see no reason why we shouldn't use the smuggler, in which the issues with the smuggler's contention with powerful Force users can also be applied to Jango Fett, Boba Fett, Mandalore the Ultimate, etc. Note that Lucas says Jango Fett's a legitimate good fight for Windu, who you say is near Outlander and co.

shows Arcann = or > the Outlander. I have yet to see a single iota of evidence from you - even a quote - to support the idea that Arcann > the late KOTET Outlander.

Huh? I've never claimed to have Arcann > Outlander evidence. I claimed none of the Outlander's performances vs Vaylin add up, and that Arcann was distinctively more powerful than an amped end-KOTFE Outlander (both of which are true), so I'm open to the possibility that Arcann's still stronger by end-game (ergo, "perhaps"). Whether he is is something I'm glad to discuss, but miss me with this "I have yet to see a single iota of evidence from you" aggressive nonsense. 

Anyway, as for that attack, we literally see that Valkorion formed a Force shield around the Outlander. Moreover, based on the color of Vaylin's attack (i.e. initially deep purple, then faded as time progresses), the potency drastically diminished after the initial explosion that KO'd Arcann.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Barrie10

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Afterm10

Note that the purple energy is clearly striking Arcann (to the left the Outlander) but not the Outlander (shielded by the barrier).

So, I don't see how that's a point in the Outlander's favor against Arcann or Vaylin (especially since, as Az said, it's an omnidirectional attack). 

By contrast, there are a myriad of feats as well as implications suggesting that the Outlander massively outgrew Arcann as a Force user, especially since you're conveniently ignoring the fact that KOTET was massively condensed, hence the fluctuations in the Outlander's power level from being < chained Vaylin as of chapter 4 to seemingly being > unchained Vaylin as of chapter 9.

Except the in-universe gaps are laughably short. Chapter 7 (i.e. the chapter with the Outlander running from a fraction of the energy Vaylin tanked) ends with the crew heading back to Odessan. Chapter 8 (i.e. the chapter with the Outlander killing Vaylin) starts with the ship arriving to Odessan with Vaylin's fleet already attacking. 

The Outlander's power didn't triple in a few hours. 

Then, Chapter 8 ends with them deciding to attack Zakuul, and Chapter 9 starts as they begin the attack. So, again, hours or days at best.

Now that you mentioned that, I think that's super-compelling evidence why Vaylin >>> Outlander in power. Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 1289255181
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 6:22 pm
I really wish @XSUPREMEXSKILLZ was here. Would've liked his input. Good discussion so far though Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 1289255181
DarthAnt66
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 7:19 pm
I'll link him to the thread. Let's open up these talks. Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 1289255181
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 7:59 pm
Sort of clarifying my thoughts here, after discussing with Skillz:

Chapter 7 irrefutably puts Vaylin >>> Outlander in power. I don't think there's any getting around the reactor disparity. 

Chapter 8, which takes place a day later, has Outlander kill Vaylin. However, because this is done by the combo of Outlander, Arcann, and Senya, plus Valkorion shielding the Outlander during Vaylin's Hail Mary, I don't think this is particularly relevant in our discussions. 

Chapter 9, which takes place maybe a few days later, shows Outlander directly defeating Vaylin in a fight. Given there's no way Outlander made up for that Chapter 7 power-gap, I think the most likely explanation is a combination of the Outlander being a supremely capable fighter and Vaylin -- relative to the big-leagues -- being inept at expressing her full power combatively. This is even reflected in her fight mechanics, such as her powers "overloading" out of control or backlashing into her directly.
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 8:08 pm
Some thoughts from Skillz directly:

Inept relative to her own power, but I have a bit of a different conception here. Vaylin’s peak applicable power or what have you is beyond Valkorion levels. I view it as: yes, Vaylin does not have mastery rivaling her raw power, but her raw power is so great and her mastery is good enough that she stands with the top tier titans. Like if she could manifest her full power in combat she’d be above Valkorion and possibly Sheev/Luke. And it’s clear from her bursts of raw power, of like overpowering Valkorion or the Outlander, that raw potency she wields makes Valkorion have sleepless nights. Vaylin even realizes in Chapter 9 that Valk truly thought she would surpass him.
PeraltaEagle45
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 8:40 pm
Vaylin's raw power is considerable but I question if she's nearly as high as people here are discussing. Let's not forget that when it came down to it, Valkorion was able to effortlessly ragdoll Vaylin, alongside Arcann & the Outlander.
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 9:49 pm
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Vaylin's raw power is considerable but I question if she's nearly as high as people here are discussing.

Are you questioning her potential or her combative ability?
PeraltaEagle45
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 9:54 pm
Her potential? Obviously not, that's pretty clear cut. However, I doubt she can use much of her potential even in her bursts of uncontrolled power. I'd hesitate to even put her above the likes of Dooku or Starkiller.
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 10:03 pm
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:I'd hesitate to even put her above the likes of Dooku or Starkiller.

Why? Not saying that I disagree with you necessarily, I'm just curious what your reasoning is.
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 2nd 2019, 10:14 pm
Also, this is a question to everyone else: How do you interpret Arcann being able to react and prop up a defense against Valklander's lightning/energy burst in KOTFE, but then getting one-shotted by Vaylin's burst in KOTET?
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 3rd 2019, 6:36 am
@BreakofDawn
And is there a source explicitly describing Ventress as being comparable to Sheev? Because there is for Vaylin:

Even as a child, Vaylin showed signs of tremendous power. Fearing she would one day challenge him, Valkorion imprisoned his daughter while he sought limits and controls on her power.

From the moment his daughter, Vaylin, was born, Valkorion felt her strong connection to the Force. As she grew up, the Immortal Emperor noticed similarities between them, which both pleased and frightened him, and he decided to keep a tight leash on his favorite child.

Your very own quote says "Fearing she would one day challenge him," which is my entire point. Sheev feared Ventress due to her potential and allegiance with Dooku, not because she was currently powerful enough to challenge him combatively on her own. The same is true for Vaylin per your quote. You haven't provided evidence her actualized power ever came close to rivaling Valkorion.

Which part of "on the biggest void in the Force in the galaxy" was unclear?

Nothing. Now can you please answer my question?

It's in the gif I posted. When Vaylin erupts with the Force wave, Valkorion immediately disappears for at least a few seconds before managing to reform very briefly.

The fact that Valkorion could reapper and comfortably stand there while the energies went through him proves they weren't affecting him and that he wasn't one-shot.

You mean like how Revan failed to one-shot Jakarro or Theron? Or do we chalk that up all of them (including the Force users) being caught off guard? Also, note that if they were caught off guard then so should the Outlander have been, especially since he was paying attention to Valkorion at the time.

Yeah, I've viewed Revan's Force wave in SoR as catching them off-guard rather than ripping through their defenses for years now. Using reductio ad absurdum doesn't refute my argument here. Your reply is just a poorly attempted rhetorical trick.

And Valkorion shielded the Outlander, which is why he didn't go flying. There is a visible Force barrier which Vaylin's energies are hitting that isn't there for Senya (it's unclear in Arcann's case, but going by my argument, he wasn't defending himself either).

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 2019-09-02

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 2019-09-02

Valkorion suggesting the Outlander vs unchained Vaylin would be a very close fight that could go either way.

Citation needed for Valkorion's statement.

Considering that she clearly grew more desperate as he moved closer, I see no reason to believe that she wouldn't have released even more energy at him to push him back. Also, watching the video it appears that she does intensify the amount of power directed at him, and he still struggles through it.

This doesn't address my point about it being released omnidirectionally. To reiterate, the Outlander only blocked a fraction of the energy and still struggled immensely. A concentrated attack on him would be much more deadly and I'm not convinced he would survive.

I'm sorry, would it have been more convincing if he'd drop kicked her? Bioware aren't going to have the Outlander drop his lightsaber and shove his hands through the barrier.

What? You cited the Outlander penetrating her barrier as evidence of him being more powerful than her. I'm pointing out that he did so with a lightsaber which isn't a showing of Force power. Therefore, it cannot be used to prove the Outlander is more powerful than Vaylin like you claimed.

You're welcome to make a case for that. However, right now it stands as an accurate example of their power levels, further indicated by the fact that there is a long bloody fight between the Outlander and Vaylin. As for the "expending energy trying to break free" bit, it's made very clear that they are completely under his control. They start threatening him, Valk suppresses him, Outlander encourages them, they fight again, then they're fully subjected to his will and do everything he wants until they're freed by the holocron. There's zero indication whatsoever that they were weakened in any way, shape or form.

It's all a metaphor for a battle of wills. Vaylin doesn't strike me as a particularly willful individual, having been emotionally manipulated and abused her entire life and being a total nutcase all around. While high willpower does denote high Force power, high Force power doesn't automatically denote high willpower. As you're the one claiming the fight proves the Outlander is more powerful than her by virtue of defeating her in the dreamscape, it's your burden to prove her willpower is equivalent to her Force power.

And it's still entirely possible for them to be trying to break free while being under his control. If you recall, all of Vitiate's victims on Ziost were fully conscious even when they were controlled by Vitiate. Surro even managed to regain control of herself and expunge Vitiate from her mind on one occasion.



At 7 minutes, Surro appears to be completely under Vitiate's control but he states that "Even now, she struggles," and after a while, she wrests back control from Vitiate. At 24:45, she states she saw everything while under Vitiate's thrall. This proves she was conscious, self-aware, and actively fighting back to regain control, even if she externally appeared not to. The same is likely true for Arcann and Vaylin as well, and so they weren't expending all their willpower on fighting the Outlander, and his victory over them cannot be treated as proof he's more powerful than either of them.
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 3rd 2019, 9:35 am
The "wall of unstable and reactive energy" you're referring to are stray bolts previously roiling and bouncing off the sphere of power enveloping Vaylin: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2_M0CUhtU&t=13m17s

Hence why I said it was her overloading the generators, sending them into meltdown and causing them to release unstable and reactive blasts of energy.
https://youtu.be/hU2_M0CUhtU?t=953

I can go into close detail on how the two situations differentiate if you'd like, but my laptop is about 10 seconds away from breaking down and I really can't be asked to go into excruciating detail on how the nature of the beams varies.



Both of my quotes were direct quotes.

Ant, I literally just went through a walkthrough for the chapter with the cutscenes you're referring to and what you're claiming is not what he said. You know what, I'll just post a screenshot:

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen19

Not to mention he said this while in orbit where the effect was considerably weaker. Just for good measure, here's Valkorion struggling to even manifest himself and admitting the void is "powerful", even for him.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen22


And, as I've said many times, Valkorion also stated he's "keeping the Void at bay" with "nearly all [his] strength."

Which he didn't say, as shown by the screenshot above. He said he'd do all he could, despite his power being limited (also shown by him barely being able to manifest himself) to shield them from the worst effects. Even while doing that in orbit, Lana still pointed out how the Force felt hollow, and then when they landed and reached the asylum she and the Outlander expressed severe discomfort. 



By definition, "keep at bay" means "to control something and prevent it from causing you problems" or "to prevent something or someone unpleasant from coming too near you or harming you." That indicates he shielded the Outlander from much of the effects.

Clearly not, since both of them were struggling to hold it together. 



You can even reconcile this with "the worst effects" to mean he shielded them from literally "the worst effects" but not the more tolerable or negligible effects (which is a perfectly legitimate interpretation, as far as I can tell). Feel free to disagree and interpret it in other ways -- there's certainly room for other takes -- but let me say this: No framing will ever compensate for the Outlander running from a fraction of what Vaylin tanked for minutes.

There is literally zero proof that it was a "fraction" of what Vaylin tanked. I've already explained this and I'm getting tired of repeating myself:



>The Outlander and Lana could still feel severe discomfort and nausea from the void, even commenting that the Force feels hollow.
>Valk, who could barely manifest himself on Nathema, said he'd do "all he can", which based on the fact he lacked even the power to manifest himself without flickering or dissipating, indicates his power was, as he himself said, "limited".
>Nearly the moment the beams hit Vaylin, she began gaining access to her full power as her conditioning began to fragment:


Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen23

 >Vaylin's full power began to overload the machines, causing them to go into meltdown and release blasts of energy capable of disintegrating Nathema zealots (who were specifically trained to survive Nathema's pull, just as Vaylin presumably was). These bolts then began travelling as a wall of energy throughout the sanitarium, and thus travelled towards the weakened Outlander and Lana. 



The Outlander said the energy would have turned him to ash.

Got a quote for that? Closest I can find is "I'll take my chances. Everybody in."


Also, by quote I mean a clip, not a paraphrased statement.



The fact that Valkorion could reapper and comfortably stand there while the energies went through him proves they weren't affecting him and that he wasn't one-shot.

Just to check we're looking at the same clip: Vaylin erupts with her power, Valk immediately disappears, Valk then manages to reappear for about 4 and a half seconds (while flickering), then disappears again. 



Citation needed for Valkorion's statement.


Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen21
Valkorion is unsure who would win if unchained Vaylin and the Outlander fought. 


Yeah, I've viewed Revan's Force wave in SoR as catching them off-guard rather than ripping through their defenses for years now. Using reductio ad absurdumdoesn't refute my argument here. Your reply is just a poorly attempted rhetorical trick.

And Valkorion shielded the Outlander, which is why he didn't go flying. There is a visible Force barrier which Vaylin's energies are hitting that isn't there for Senya (it's unclear in Arcann's case, but going by my argument, he wasn't defending himself either).

Funnily enough, this situation is eerily similar to novel Revan's disintegration of Nyriss:

>Revan catches Nyriss off guard by flinging her own lightning back at her.
>Nyriss raises a hasty shield.
>The shield gets ripped through like paper.
>Nyriss is disintegrated.

We know for a fact that chained Vaylin is on the same level as spirit Valkorion based on direct interactions between the two as well as feats (E.G. spirit Valkorion struggling to overpower Arcann). Valk's shield against an unchained Vaylin would have done virtually nothing to stop Vaylin's attack, as the sheer power of it would have ripped straight through the shield and smashed into the Outlander while losing little to any of its initial power. So either:
>The Outlander is a lot stronger than you give him credit for, 
>It was the Outlander conjuring the barrier, 
>Valk has been lying about his power the entire time (pretty unlikely considering) or
>Vaylin just wanted to toy with him (also unlikely). 

I'll let you decide which is the most likely. 


Except the in-universe gaps are laughably short. Chapter 7 (i.e. the chapter with the Outlander running from a fraction of the energy Vaylin tanked) ends with the crew heading back to Odessan. Chapter 8 (i.e. the chapter with the Outlander killing Vaylin) starts with the ship arriving to Odessan with Vaylin's fleet already attacking. 

The Outlander's power didn't triple in a few hours. 

Then, Chapter 8 ends with them deciding to attack Zakuul, and Chapter 9 starts as they begin the attack. So, again, hours or days at best.
Not even remotely what I was referring to.

The time between chapter 4 and chapter 7 was meant to be a hell of a lot longer in the original plan. For example, the Iokath arc was meant to last at least a few more chapters, and there also plans to revisit the Rakata before even getting into the endgame (AKA Vaylin breaking her conditioning and attacking Odessen), hence why the Outlander's power appears to be unrealistically jumping.

BTW, sorry for if any of my responses come across as aggressive. It's not intended.


Edit: Can you two stop posting big walls of text right after each other? I'm a simply guy and I get confused who said what when scrolling up and down, lol.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on September 3rd 2019, 11:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 3rd 2019, 11:09 am
Forgot to add, there's also this from the codex entry which supports the idea that Valkorion's protection was largely ineffective.

 Even the Force could not survive. The void that remained after the ritual brought pain and suffering to any Force-sensitive beings that approached. 

Centuries later, Valkorion banished his daughter Vaylin to the blighted world, knowing the void would limit her growing power and make her more susceptible to the mental conditioning he could use to control her... if it didn't drive her mad.


Founded by Valkorion, the Nathema Zealots are among the only Force-sensitive beings able to withstand the horrors of the void through a regime of daily rituals and intense meditation. However, while their mental conditioning focuses their power, it simultaneously erodes their free will.



This is on top of Lana describing the Force as "hollow", the Outlander describing it as feeling "wrong", Lana and the Outlander struggling to cope with the effects of the void despite Valk's protection, and Valk both failing to manifest himself for long and his own admission that even by his standards the void's pull was "powerful". By all suggestions, he simply managed to slow the rate of the madness that the void would inflict on the Outlander and Lana, preventing them from going insane. He was only able to somewhat salvage their connection to the Force on the planet as both of them noted that the Force felt "wrong" and "hollow", also supported by the fact that the void had the power to leave even chained Vaylin almost powerless before she was able to tap into her full power and thus also leave the Outlander and Lana with a considerably weakened connection to the Force while on the planet.
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 3rd 2019, 12:12 pm
TOR should be banned for encouraging fascism
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 3rd 2019, 12:41 pm
Hence why I said it was her overloading the generators, sending them into meltdown and causing them to release unstable and reactive blasts of energy.
https://youtu.be/hU2_M0CUhtU?t=953

Look, this isn't rocket science here.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Vaylin11
Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Ah11
Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Green_11

Yes, "the reactors released unstable and reactive blasts of energy." Again, though, Vaylin tanked that same energy at a laughably greater intensity over a laughably long duration. This is apparent by just the color contrast between the blinding bright green beams pouring into Vaylin with pale green strands rippling outward versus the Outlander running from just the pale green strands. And you can even track the movement of the strands. In image one, the strands course out from Vaylin's central bubble, meaning they are rippling through her on-top of the super-concentrated lasers. In image two, those strands continue outward and ash scientists. In the third image, those strands have caught up to the Outlander. Through that whole time, Vaylin remained in the center getting beamed. 

You note you're tired of repeating your point that "it's different," but it's really not. Both are confronting the same exact energy -- just Vaylin handles way more way better.

Ant, I literally just went through a walkthrough for the chapter with the cutscenes you're referring to and what you're claiming is not what he said.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 1220391476

Different choices, characters, and relationships sometimes prompt different lines. That's why I use online databases with all of SWTOR's dialogue.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Valkor10

https://torcommunity.com/database/mission/LR0d1o4/0

Note that Valkorion says he will keep the Void at bay and the Outlander tells Lana not to worry after her comments on its effects, indicating Valkorion's shielding didn't start yet or wasn't fully actualized. That makes sense since I don't think they mention it again, and the effects should have steadily increased otherwise (like with Meetra). 

Clearly not, since both of them were struggling to hold it together. 

Initially, sure. But that obviously changed. And none of the Outlander's dialogue particularly indicates strain (you can see the options above).

>The Outlander and Lana could still feel severe discomfort and nausea from the void, even commenting that the Force feels hollow.
>Valk, who could barely manifest himself on Nathema, said he'd do "all he can", which based on the fact he lacked even the power to manifest himself without flickering or dissipating, indicates his power was, as he himself said, "limited".
>Nearly the moment the beams hit Vaylin, she began gaining access to her full power as her conditioning began to fragment:
 >Vaylin's full power began to overload the machines, causing them to go into meltdown and release blasts of energy capable of disintegrating Nathema zealots (who were specifically trained to survive Nathema's pull, just as Vaylin presumably was). These bolts then began travelling as a wall of energy throughout the sanitarium, and thus travelled towards the weakened Outlander and Lana. 

I think I covered all these beats above.

Got a quote for that? Closest I can find is "I'll take my chances. Everybody in."


Also, by quote I mean a clip, not a paraphrased statement.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Outlan10

https://torcommunity.com/database/conversation/QcmHIZ0/cnvexpseasons02ep_07scene_07_jarak_vaylin/

Not even remotely what I was referring to.

But my point's important regardless.

The time between chapter 4 and chapter 7 was meant to be a hell of a lot longer in the original plan. For example, the Iokath arc was meant to last at least a few more chapters, and there also plans to revisit the Rakata before even getting into the endgame (AKA Vaylin breaking her conditioning and attacking Odessen), hence why the Outlander's power appears to be unrealistically jumping.

That's not all that relevant since the discussion is basically whether Outlander's power tripled in power in a few hours from Chapter 7 and Chapter 8 (hint: no).

I think everything else you said is directed at @Azronger.
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Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Empty Re: Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

on September 3rd 2019, 1:50 pm
Yes, "the reactors released unstable and reactive blasts of energy." Again, though, Vaylin tanked that same energy at a laughably greater intensity over a laughably long duration. This is apparent by just the color contrast between the blinding bright green beams pouring into Vaylin with pale green strands rippling outward versus the Outlander running from just the pale green strands.

Again, Vaylin's were carefully moderated to a specific power and intensity when attacking her, specifically so that she could unlock her full power and survive. Her full power as it's released then overloads the machines causing these beams to spread beyond the containment field established around her. 




And you can even track the movement of the strands. In image one, the strands course out from Vaylin's central bubble, meaning they are rippling through her on-top of the super-concentrated lasers. In image two, those strands continue outward and ash scientists. In the third image, those strands have caught up to the Outlander. Through that whole time, Vaylin remained in the center getting beamed. 

My point is that Vaylin's were carefully controlled and locked in order to operate at an intensity specifically designed to break her conditioning. No more, no less. When the energy erupts, it's literally a wall of energy bearing down on the Outlander and Lana.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen24

As the wall of energy comes towards them, it's comprised of the ricocheting bolts of energy that as you said resulted from Vaylin's destabilising of the process. These bolts themselves were also incredibly potent:


Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen25



Note the similar shade and tone to that hitting Vaylin:


Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen26 Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen29 Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen28

Left and centre are the beams hitting Vaylin. Right is one of the unstable ricocheting beams that begin spreading out from her. These are the kind of beams that were part of that wall of energy heading towards the Outlander and Lana. 



You note you're tired of repeating your point that "it's different," but it's really not. Both are confronting the same exact energy -- just Vaylin handles way more way better.

On top of explaining part of that above, I've also pointed out that Vaylin began tapping into her full power nearly as soon as the beams hit her. You're essentially comparing a massively strengthened character (who was growing more powerful by the second) to a character considerably weakened and their respective performances against the same force.



Different choices, characters, and relationships sometimes prompt different lines. That's why I use online databases with all of SWTOR's dialogue.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Valkor10

Cheers. I didn't check the smuggler or other non-Force user playthroughs which is why I didn't see this. My second post also addressed what this specific "void" is:

Even the Force could not survive. The void that remained after the ritual brought pain and suffering to any Force-sensitive beings that approached. 

Centuries later, Valkorion banished his daughter Vaylin to the blighted world, knowing the void would limit her growing power and make her more susceptible to the mental conditioning he could use to control her... if it didn't drive her mad.


Founded by Valkorion, the Nathema Zealots are among the only Force-sensitive beings able to withstand the horrors of the void through a regime of daily rituals and intense meditation. However, while their mental conditioning focuses their power, it simultaneously erodes their free will.

Multiple codex entries suggest that the void is powerful enough to send even some of the most focused and powerful beings in the galaxy mad if they spend even a short time on the planet. Valk was delaying this madness by shielding them from going near-instantly insane, which is supported by both what Lana and the Outlander say throughout the chapter.


Note that Valkorion says he will keep the Void at bay and the Outlander tells Lana not to worry after her comments on its effects, indicating Valkorion's shielding didn't start yet or wasn't fully actualized.

Valk was already starting to shield them when they were in orbit:

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Screen30

He even specifies that he'll try to protect them from the very worst effects of the void, AKA the instant madness it can cause. 



That makes sense since I don't think they mention it again, and the effects should have steadily increased otherwise (like with Meetra). 

They mention it about 3 times, only stopping when they feel Vaylin's power starting to be unlocked.


Initially, sure. But that obviously changed. And none of the Outlander's dialogue particularly indicates strain (you can see the options above).

They note considerable discomfort and agreement with Lana in describing how the planet is "unsettling" and how "the Force feels...wrong here", even after reaching the sanatorium. 




You sure that was included in the final game? Can't seem to find it anyway, Force user or non Force user. It's replaced by "there must be a backup control to restore power."


That's not all that relevant since the discussion is basically whether Outlander's power tripled in power in a few hours from Chapter 7 and Chapter 8 (hint: no).

I'm saying that between chapter 4 and chapter 7 the Outlander grew immensely over those months, resulting in even Valkorion believing a fight between them and unchained Vaylin would be too close to call. They were weakened on Nathema, and they were at their peak on chapter 8.
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on September 3rd 2019, 2:16 pm
Revan’s able to resist the Nathemic drain in the novel, and his durability, power, etc, increases by a lot by SoR.
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on September 3rd 2019, 2:32 pm
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Revan’s able to resist the Nathemic drain in the novel, and his durability, power, etc, increases by a lot by SoR.

Revan also has superior willpower feats to the Outlander, not to mention he wasn't on Nathema for long in the Revan novel. By comparison Meetra, who was only on the planet for a few minutes, was barely hanging on to her sanity and was left almost completely powerless, as was Scourge.
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on September 3rd 2019, 3:09 pm
@BreakofDawn

Just to check we're looking at the same clip: Vaylin erupts with her power, Valk immediately disappears, Valk then manages to reappear for about 4 and a half seconds (while flickering), then disappears again.

How does this address what I said? She clearly can't "one-shot" him if he can just stand there and let the energy go through him. That he's flickering may just be an effect of the energy travelling through him. It doesn't have to mean it's damaging him. Compare his reaction to that of Freedon Nadd's, which is much more visceral. His reaction conveys he's actually being hurt while Valkorion's doesn't. Valkorion's dispassionate demeanor is much more akin to the other Sith ghosts in TOR when Darth Nox attempts to shoot them with lightning than someone who is being actively hurt by volatile energies rippling through him

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 Nadd_d10

vs.

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 4579263-8745156553-mGdwo

Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin - Page 2 4579274-7733370159-KreLE

Valkorion is unsure who would win if unchained Vaylin and the Outlander fought.

I'd need more context. The wording alone doesn't tell us what you're claiming; he could just be saying that there's no telling how powerful Unchained Vaylin would become and it's possible she may become too powerful for even the Outlander, not that he can precisely quantify Unchained Vaylin's full potency and determines it's roughly on the same level as the Outlander. What chapter is that from? Can you link a YouTube video?

Funnily enough, this situation is eerily similar to novel Revan's disintegration of Nyriss:

>Revan catches Nyriss off guard by flinging her own lightning back at her.
>Nyriss raises a hasty shield.
>The shield gets ripped through like paper.
>Nyriss is disintegrated.

We know for a fact that chained Vaylin is on the same level as spirit Valkorion based on direct interactions between the two as well as feats (E.G. spirit Valkorion struggling to overpower Arcann). Valk's shield against an unchained Vaylin would have done virtually nothing to stop Vaylin's attack, as the sheer power of it would have ripped straight through the shield and smashed into the Outlander while losing little to any of its initial power. So either:
>The Outlander is a lot stronger than you give him credit for,
>It was the Outlander conjuring the barrier,
>Valk has been lying about his power the entire time (pretty unlikely considering) or
>Vaylin just wanted to toy with him (also unlikely).

I'll let you decide which is the most likely.

How do you know the gap between Revan and Nyriss is equal to or smaller than the one between Unchained Vaylin and Ch. 8 spirit Valkorion? How do you know Valkorion's barrier would only mitigate an infinitesimal fraction of her energy? Hypothetically, if Valkorion had 40% of Vaylin's power, his barrier would break quickly but still only 60% of her power would hit the Outlander after getting through the shield, which would explain why he wasn't flung back as far and knocked out. You're baselessly drawing an equivalency between this and Revan vs. Nyriss when there isn't enough information on the former to analogize the two instances. It could just as well be more akin to Revan vs. Vitiate:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.


Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan

Vitiate's lightning is noted to be "infinitely more powerful" than lightning which could incinerate the Exile and Lord Scourge. Revan's defenses are instantly torn through, but he still suffers only third-degree burns from it, proving his defense mitigated a significant portion of Vitiate's energy. It could be the same with Valkorion and Vaylin: his barrier diminished enough of her energy so that the Outlander wasn't hit with as much force as Arcann and Senya. How quickly the barrier was ripped through doesn't tell us anything about how effective it was, so your comparison with Nyriss is baseless.

Also, I see no response to the majority of my points. Do you concede on all of them or do you have another post coming addressing them?

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on September 3rd 2019, 6:41 pm
@Azronger My laptop is breaking down, I have real life issues and I’m pretty busy with balancing my study/work life so I’m sorry for not responding immediately to every single point you’ve made. I originally was debating this with Ant before you jumped in so I missed a lot of what you said and mixed some of it up with Ant’s posts (hence my edit at the bottom of my last post). I’ll get into anything I haven’t addressed once my laptop stops going seizure mode on me and I have the time to sit down and go through it in detail. Sorry for the wait.
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on September 4th 2019, 1:15 pm
FWI I'll respond Thursday.
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on September 4th 2019, 1:21 pm
No point, honestly. It's unlikely I'll get back to you as something's just come up irl. Reply if you want but I can't guarantee I'll be able to reply.
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