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The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 9:32 am
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Wyyrlo10

*Not an actual image of Darish Vol as there is no canon artwork of him


The combatants will fight in-character, with morals on, and are at their peak combative state bar external amps or other circumstantial power boosts. They will start 300 meters away from each other on open grass fields. Victory necessitates permanently killing or destroying the physical body of the opponent.

There is no deadline for creating posts or concluding the debate. While it's subject to change, I'll use The Tyrannical Ten post guidelines to give the debate some structure (I doubt we will need as many characters but for all we know we might make 5 posts each):

The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher.

I'd like to encourage ahead of time that people not post needless commentary in the thread. If we can keep all if not most of the debate posts on the first page that would be great. I will be posting an opener for Wyyrlok and I am happy for MasterCilghal to do the same for Vol or to just get straight into the debate proper.

When we are both happy the debate is finished I will open it up to a public vote to receive feedback.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 9:35 am
Thanks for making the thread. Good luck @ILS

_________________
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) E8ae7210
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 9:35 am
TAEP
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator
Moderator

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 10:44 am
This should be interesting.
Shioz
Shioz

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 11:22 am
TAEP. Good luck to both of you.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 11:30 am
TAEP.
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 12:52 pm
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) 4037459623
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 18th 2019, 2:58 pm
Excited for this.

TAEP.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 20th 2019, 5:10 am
TAEP
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 20th 2019, 2:52 pm
Did people not read the part about not filling up this thread with horse shit? Nobody cares if you want a tag. A mod should delete all these messages (Mine included) tbh.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 20th 2019, 9:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
My argument is pretty simple. Wyyrlok is extremely powerful, skilled and knowledgeable in all aspects of the dark side, with a penchant for telepathic attacks. His knowledge of the Sith arts even exceeds Krayt himself.
“Calm, philosophical, and skilled in diplomacy, Wyyrlok is the voice of reason within—and the public face of—the Sith order. His knowledge of the rituals and lore of the Sith is unparalleled, and his dark side abilities are surpassed only by Krayt.” —Star Wars Insider #88
"A Chagrian SIth Lord and Darth Krayt’s second in command during the rise of Krayt’s new Sith Order. Wyyrlok's knowledge of Sith lore, rituals, and history was rivalled only by that of Krayt himself. The reserved, philosophical Chagrian was the third individual to hold the title of Darth Wyyrlok, and ensured the continuation of the pattern by submitting his own daughter for training on Korriban.” —The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
“Third of that name, Wyyrlok is Krayt’s most trusted lieutenant, master of ritual lore of the Sith and all the ways of the dark side.” —Star Wars: Legacy #0
“Known as the Loremaster of the Sith, Darth Wyyrlok is one of the greatest scholars of the Jedi, Sith, and other Force-using traditions in the galaxy. Darth Wyyrlok has access to books, scrolls, holocrons, and computer records from across the eons, which he has collected in the hopes of gaining a deeper understanding of the Force. Darth Wyyrlok is utterly dedicated to serving Darth Krayt and will go to the ends of the galaxy to find a way to restore his master’s body to its youthful form. —Legacy Era Campaign Guide

Wyyrlok forced illusions into the minds of nearly a dozen Force sensitive Sith devotees, causing them to kill each other, with an “iota” of his power, and he also mused that he could have made them claw out their own eyes had he wished it. The Legacy Era Campaign Guide cited this as evidence that he was a “master” of Illusions.
https://imgur.com/a/dUdZF  

“He is a master of illusions, capable of using the Force to trick his enemies' minds into seeing things that are not there. In fact, so powerful are Darth Wyyrlok's mind tricks that he manages to convince nearly a dozen lightsaber-wielding dark side cultists on Prakith that they should fight and kill one another.”
—Legacy Era Campaign Guide

He battled Darth Andeddu on the mental plane, and even though Andeddu could kill other beings - presumably other Sith during his own time - in such battles, Wyyrlok easily rebuked this attempt on his mind and eradicated the mind and spirit of Andeddu in short order. He did this by attacking Andeddu’s doubts and fears, as Andeddu had attempted to do to him.

“You have doubts, Lord Wyyrlok, and doubts can cripple!”
---
“This -- all this -- is nothing more than a Force Illusion like the one I crafted for the fools above!”
“No less powerful for all that! What you believe to be real is what is real! Even your own death! Your mind is no match for mine!”
https://imgur.com/a/equPN

As you can see from the battle, the reason Wyyrlok wins is because he is able to sustain an attack on his identity. The material Andeddu uses is pretty weak sauce - he calls Wyyrlok a slave and plays on his subservience to Krayt. 

Wyyrlok, on the other hand, has something far more juicy - Andeddu’s shame, and more importantly, his fear of losing his knowledge, and his death. He plays on Andeddu fleeing from Korriban from his enemies who sought to destroy him and steal his knowledge. He then plants the image in Andeddu’s mind of his books, scrolls and holocron being destroyed, an image made all the more real by the fact that Wyyrlok threatens to do just that - destroy all of Andeddu’s works, and Andeddu himself, removing all trace of him from existence. That fear manifests as reality in Andeddu’s mind, and he dies.

Wyyrlok’s mind was pretty strong even as of this encounter. He demonstrates one of the fundamental concepts of Sith philosophy - the imposition of one’s will - in everything that he does.
Darth Wyyrlok believes that it is willpower that gives the Sith their strength. By sheer force of will, a Sith can achieve almost anything, and Darth Wyyrlok displays this in everything he does. He is a master of illusions, capable of using the Force to trick his enemies’ minds into seeing that that are not there. In fact, so powerful are Darth Wyyrlok's mind tricks that he manages to convince nearly a dozen lightsaber-wielding dark side cultists on Prakith that they should fight and kill one another, proving once again that the Sith are masters of bending the galaxy to their will.
—Legacy Era Campaign Guide

That willpower is one of the core elements of power in Sith philosophy is a belief shared by Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious, so clearly, Wyyrlok is in good company.
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) LDZKNJljKyvZbLWP2MAA7KNmyGuZV50io5ebSIMJLq4Zb9-yc2P7D2GkR2F4dtm_J9NdOTFHo6OTDoVd8u3ysI9UQ3oG4rOCU18RqMxfDvKe-qF6M7XtIkYCX502b1Tblrpftag-
From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.
--Darth Plagueis

Wyyrlok’s will reached a new height after the Andeddu fight, however. As shown earlier and reiterated below, doubt can cripple, and Wyyrlok removes all doubt that he might fail from his mind when he accepts that if Krayt cannot live to see his vision for the Sith Order, Wyyrlok’s willpower is sufficient to carry both of them.
“What is a Sith? Over time, the beliefs have changed, but one constant has remained. The imposition of one’s will on the Force, on the environment surrounding one, on the galaxy itself. There is no substance stronger than the will of the Sith. Not durasteel, not Mandalorian beskar, not the beliefs of the Jedi. Nothing. Never question, never doubt. Those are poisons that sap your will, steal your strength, make you the prey and not the predator. It is Darth Krayt’s doubt--that he will live to see the completion of his vision, that his Sith Order will outlive him--that is killing him. Wyyrlok sees that now. That does not matter. Wyyrlok’s belief, his mission, his will are strong for himself and Krayt. Time will be made. A way will be found. A solution will be forged. It will all bend to his will.”
—Star Wars: Legacy #27

Wyyrlok’s other power of note is Memory Walk. Memory Walk is described as an ability that compels the enemy to relive their most horrible memories and experiences - tragedy, humiliation, shame, fear. 
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) 6PHDtwobmrvzd7MBPB0OGaL84BmN2qiGKER0cSQ6MQESZDQfumX1SwHJBWXLByE7WuRt7y13Drvq6ruJ_qoAaeU_4diFcsdhAyUEBWyBWav1oMzNaumjciXbRaQGisAnXAdiJpbd
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) BVbST0VXEXoYDvYKkEsDbnk8eIKakoW2IAxpPhy4UyjZYnJNLj3l9Z6S-NmrN4XfkA9rz7bIK0vtZHQjRUIZWAeGuf62zJHejtnoCdbRI5B93HihzBzN8NBLtgbw54WPAJ4KB1E1

We see him successfully use this against Darth Krayt, bringing all of his worst experiences to the forefront of his mind in quick succession.
https://imgur.com/a/AP04o

However, as shown with Darth Maladi and Cade Skywalker, it is not just explicit memories that can be brought to the forefront of the mind. It is underlying fears and insecurities - what ifs - that can be capitalised on, as Maladi shows Cade an illusion of himself as a Sith Lord killing his loved ones, and Cade himself casts an illusion of Maladi losing control of her surroundings, being surrounded by Vong snakes and dominated by Cade himself.
https://imgur.com/a/G20LQ

Moreover, it is possible to amplify the worst fears and insecurities of an enemy through the use of Force Illusions. We saw this already with Wyyrlok making Andeddu believe that his books and scrolls were being drowned in lava, even though the room they were in remained unaffected. This ability to amplify the effects of Memory Walk is described in gruesome detail below when a Sorcerer of Tund named Gepta tortures members of his crew and Lando Calrissian.
The sorcerer made a gesture with his gloved fist. The officer groaned, sweat sprang out on his forehead, and he sank to his knees.

"You see how much more effective it is than mere pain, don't you?

Everyone has memories, little items from their past best left buried: humiliations, embarrassments, mistakes... sometimes fatal ones. All the ways we have failed those we have loved, the ways they have failed us!"

Gepta made another gesture.

"No, you can think of nothing else! The ignobility races round and round your mind, amplified, feeding on itself!"

The officer's face went gray, he swayed on his knees, his back bowed, his clenched fists began dripping blood where the fingernails cut into the palms. A little froth appeared at one corner of his mouth, followed by more blood as he gnashed at his lips and tongue. Finally, he lost all control, collapsed in a heap and lay there, twitching, moaning.

Gepta released him.

A pair of orderlies appeared, dragged the broken man from the bridge.
--Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon

As shown, suffering Memory Walk forces the enemy to experience an endless loop of their worst experiences which becomes amplified as it feeds on itself. This is described as a greater method of torture than even physical pain.

But it gets worse. Through the use of Memory Walk, one can actually amplify the memories themselves to be far worse than when they were experienced: you make seconds feel like hours and you can exaggerate the fear the enemy experienced at the time.
The fire hose caught him unprepared. It dashed him against the wall, the icy water sluicing over him, blinding him, forcing itself into his mouth and nose. He fell to his knees, his head battered against the wall. He ducked it, trying to breathe, trying to stay alive against the killing force of "But, you protest, it wasn't like that at all?"

Gepta paced back and forth in front of Lando, relishing the gambler's agony. Despite the sweat on every centimeter of his skin, Lando was freezing, simply from the memory.

But Gepta was right: it hadn't been like that at all.

"It-it only lasted a few moments," Lando stunered. Perhaps it was a surrender of some kind; he hated to give the madman any satisfaction at all. But he had to understand what was happening here.

"I wasn't nearly that frightened. I'd already worked out a way to escape. And it only lasted a few seconds-not the hours I just..."

He tapered off, unable to continue because of his shaking. Shaking merely at the remembrance of something that hadn't bothered him all that much when it was actually happening.
--Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon

But it gets even worse. It’s possible to make the enemy experience fear which they were able to avoid at the time through their own psychological defences. Our ability to be brave, press on and ignore our fears is taken away during Memory Walk - all that is left is the fear itself with no way to avoid it. Even worse, the knowledge that the enemy survived their traumatic experience, that they somehow succeeded in the end, is taken from them. The only thing they are left with is the fear itself, with no hope left to cling to.

"You're a brave man, Captain Cahissian. You don't like to think of it that way. What do you call it, 'creative cowardice'?

You regard yourself a pragmatist, one not given to heroics."

The sorcerer had paused, stood now nearly motionless before the gambler. In the background, the Flamewind whorled around the demented sky, casting many-colored shadows.

Lando shook his head to get the sweat out of his eyes, tried his bonds. As he'd expected, they were there to stay.

"And yet," Gepta continued, "what is bravery but the capacity to reject our fears, ignore and suppress them, then go on to do whatever it is we are afraid to do. What you are experiencing now, dear Captain, is the fear You refused to experience the first time. Now you have no choice!"

Surprise attack!

Wrestling the Falcon with one hand, Lando desperately tried to fire the cockpit guns with the other as the weird ragtaggle fighter-squadron bore down on him. It was a nightmare: they were too well shielded for his inconsequential guns to trouble, yet he couldn't operate the quad-guns without leaving the bridge.

Vuffi Raa, insane and helpless, couldn't assist him.

He fired again. He might as well have been shooting strewns of pink lemonade as the pale, ineffectual fire that was all he could manage. The enemy fleet bore down on him, bore down, bore down...

Lando finished throwing up, coughed, choked, cleared his throat.

"Obviously," Gepta hissed cheerfully, "you survived the peril that you just reexperienced. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here now-it's only logical. It is a logic which enables us to live with our unpleasant memories, is it not? An integrative, healing contextualization which we all require to survive."

"Sure," the gambler gasped. "Sure, you rotten-anything you say!"

"Ah! Resistance at last! As I was saying, however, the art of torture-by-chagrin lies in denying the mind that integration, that perspective. As you relive the horrors of your life, you don't recall that you survived, eventually triumphed. You see, even at moments of extreme peril, there are defenses, distractions, digressions which dilute the passions..What is more, my method does not allow its subject to experience anything but the fear. You can think of nothing else. The experience goes on and on, in circles, until the ego and the will are utterly crushed.
--Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon

So far, I’ve demonstrated that Wyyrlok is one of the foremost masters of offensive telepathy, particularly the use of Force Illusions and attacking the weakest part of his opponent’s psyche, even able to bring Darth Krayt to his knees temporarily. I’ve also shown that whatever doubts or insecurities he had at one time were very weak to begin with, due to his immense willpower and strength of belief, and that even these doubts were eradicated after his fight with Andeddu. A telepathic attack on Wyyrlok would be fairly ineffective as there is little to exploit.

What about Darish Vol? Based on the evidence, we cannot say the same for him. Firstly, he has lived an extremely brutal life as described below. But despite all he had seen, he “shrank back in horror” at seeing Abeloth, and to him she was a “nightmare.” He was “terrified” at the prospect of entering her mind, terrified more only by the idea he would let her slowly kill him without fighting back.
Vol had seen much violence, deceit, ugliness, and brutality in his day. He had seen, and sometimes committed, deeds such as evisceration of the body and torture of the mind through the power of the dark side. He had seen bodies explode into tiny fragments, watched powerfully intelligent people reduced to gibbering idiots when their minds were destroyed thought by thought.

And he shrank back in horror now at the monstrosity revealed to him.

Before him was a nightmare. Her hair was long, twining tendrils of hideousness, her eyes sunken and yet bright as tiny stars, her mouth widening, widening, until it split her face. She laughed, the tendrils reaching out both physically and in the Force.

"Silly Vol," she said. "To imagine, even for a moment, that anything human could even conceive of the vastness that is Abeloth, let alone trap me for your own tiny-minded purposes. Now you shall die, and your world shall become mine. I shall be unto them Protector and Destructor both, and there is nothing that you or any of your little friends can do to stop me."

The tendrils were on him now, slithering into his mouth, his ears, his nose, caressing in a strangely appealing manner even as he cringed back in loathing.

It was a dream, he knew, but it was more than a dream as well. And even in such an in-between place, Vol knew what he had to do. It terrified him, but the thought of being destroyed without a fight by this vile thing terrified him even worse.

He had to dive inside that mind.
--Fate of the Jedi: Ascension

But it gets worse. Evicting Vol from her mind, Abeloth caused him “the most exquisite agony” he had ever experienced to “race through every part of his being.” He was left on the ground powerless, sweat soaked and terrified. He, to his own shock, could only get mumbled words which sounded senile and, perhaps worst of all, he even started weeping… yes… the Grand Lord of the Sith, near the end of his life in which he has seen every kind of horror, was brought to tears by this traumatic experience. As he says, this is the “greatest mistake” he has ever made.
Her pain exploded and hurled him back, releasing him, but causing the most exquisite agony Vol had ever experienced to race through every part of his being.

Vol surged forward out of the dream so quickly that he hurled himself from his bed and landed hard on the floor, where he lay gasping, weak, so weak, sweat-soaked and terrified. He-used to manipulating objects in the Force, leaping great distances, crushing things with a thought-had not the strength of a new-hatched uvak. It was an effort to lift his head, to push himself up off the floor, and the muscles quivered from that simple strain.

Grunting, he dragged himself to a seated position, muscles trembling. It would have to do-rising, let alone walking, would take several more minutes. He summoned his last drop of energy and sent forth an urgent demand to Revar, the young Sith Saber who attended him. Four seconds later Revar burst into the room, lightsaber illuminating the darkness and the younger man's worried face with an eerie red glow.

"My lord," Revar cried, lighting the room with a gesture at the same time he deactivated the weapon, "what happened?" He rushed and eased the old man up onto the bed.

Vol opened his mouth, but could not speak. Finally, he rasped, "Abeloth ..."

"She was here?"

Vol shook his head. "No. In ... dream ..." He knew that he sounded senile, but he also knew that there were marks on his body that Revar and others could see. "My ship-take me to my ship. And awaken the Lords," he said, alarmed at how feeble he sounded. "And the defenses-the city ... she is going to ... to make the city pay ..."

Revar wasted no more time on questions. Using the Force, he lifted his Master as gently as possible, then, holding on to him, Revar raced, with Force-augmented speed, toward the hangar atop Vol's estate. There was always a small personal vessel at the ready; one never knew when the Grand Lord might wish to depart on short notice.

As they fled, Vol began to weep. Revar was disconcerted, but not so much that he did not pay close attention to the mumbled words.

"Nothing can hold her ... Fool to think I could use her ... What is she?... Mistake ... By the dark, the greatest mistake I have ever made ..."
--Fate of the Jedi: Ascension

By now you should see where I’m going with this. Given Wyyrlok’s mastery of Force Illusions and Memory Walk, he’s going to be able to take this extremely traumatic moment in Vol’s life, characterised by weakness, fear, regret, shame and agonising pain of the worst kind, and amplify it even further in an endless loop - a loop where there is no sight of hope, no sight of even getting out alive. Vol is going to be faced with the reality that in attempting to ally with Abeloth, he destroyed his cherished Sith Order that he spent a lifetime trying to build and maintain, along with the immense trauma he experienced battling Abeloth in her own mind, which left him in a near-death state.
She had harmed him, too, though. Almost killed him. And she had destroyed his precious city, unleashing her outrage and fury on the site of her shame.
--Fate of the Jedi: Ascension

Now, if I was a betting man, I would say that Darth Krayt, a guy who overcame death itself and conquered all of his inner demons, is of sounder mental constitution than Vol. Even he was brought to his knees if only briefly by Wyyrlok. And, had Wyyrlok not spent his time gloating and monologuing to his defeated opponent, he might have had a chance to end the fight.

He has no reason to do so here, as he has no personal grudge against Vol. And Vol will be incapacitated even longer than Krayt. In fact, it’s entirely possible that the trauma he will experience will be so great that Memory Walk alone wins the fight for Wyyrlok. But on the off-chance it isn’t, it will still serve as a good enough distraction that while he is floored, Wyyrlok can simply blast him with lightning - as he did the Andeddu cultists while they fought illusory opponents - or just stab him to death. Given that Wyyrlok can shatter stone pillars with his Lightning , I doubt an incapacitated Vol will be able to do much but die once he is hit by it.

Wyyrlok has no problem using Memory Walk in the heat of battle. As we saw, he was on the losing end of a lightsaber exchange from a visibly bloodlusted Krayt, and he still managed to get off Memory Walk. Vol is not a warrior of the same calibre as Krayt, so there will be no issue for Wyyrlok using this technique on him.

I look forward to seeing how you can counter this.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 21st 2019, 1:41 am
Excellent post, the counter will come hopefully soon, although atm I cannot make promises.

_________________
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) E8ae7210
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 21st 2019, 3:46 am
Amazing post, awesome post, astonishing post, astounding post, beautiful post, breathtaking post, brilliant post, cool post, delightful post, extraordinary post, excellent post, exquisite post, exceptional post, fantastic post, fine post, flawless post, good post, great post, grand post, glorious post, incredible post, impressive post, magnificent post, marvelous post, monumental post, nice post, outstanding post, phenomenal post, perfect post, remarkable post, ravishing post, stupendous post, splendid post, sublime post, sensational post, spectacular post, superb post, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious post, tremendous post, topnotch post, wonderful post, wondrous post!

_________________
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Sheev_sig_3
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 21st 2019, 5:27 am
Azronger wrote:Amazing post, awesome post, astonishing post, astounding post, beautiful post, breathtaking post, brilliant post, cool post, delightful post, extraordinary post, excellent post, exquisite post, exceptional post, fantastic post, fine post, flawless post, good post, great post, grand post, glorious post, incredible post, impressive post, magnificent post, marvelous post, monumental post, nice post, outstanding post, phenomenal post, perfect post, remarkable post, ravishing post, stupendous post, splendid post, sublime post, sensational post, spectacular post, superb post, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious post, tremendous post, topnotch post, wonderful post, wondrous post!
Even all of these words are not enough to describe the magnificence of this post
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 21st 2019, 8:25 am
@ILS insanely good post
Shioz
Shioz

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 21st 2019, 8:33 am
Great post.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 21st 2019, 8:59 am
Beautiful... I don’t even have words...
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 21st 2019, 9:50 am
@ILS The profundity of the revelations shared in that post are impossible to quantify. Harder yet is it to put into words the complexity of ideas brought forth. As I type this message I find myself in awe of your rhetorical prowess. This post has moved me so greatly there are tears streaming down my face as I struggle to maintain my composure.

Thank you for this shard of divinity, my Lord. I humbly ask that you allow me to bask in your greatness further by tagging me the millisecond you have completed another post.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 3:56 am
Premise





First of all I want to congratulate with ILS for creating such a great and interesting post, which I must admit, I will have difficulty in countering. Within my first post I will first present a counter to ILS’s points and a small scaling that proves Vol’s superiority over his competition. 
Let’s begin immediately. 

Willpower 





First, I completely agree with the breakdown ILS has presented of Wyyrlok’s most impressive accolades and feats, his knowledge, the “deadliness” of his special telepathic abilities and, especially (since it will be an important factor in my counter argument), the notion hat willpower directly correlates into force power. However, I think there is a fundamental problem when it comes to how effective said abilities are going to be against Vol, as I feel his mental fight with Abeloth is actually a more than valid proof that he can withstand his opponent’s telepathic attacks without too much strain. 


ILS wrote:What about Darish Vol? Based on the evidence, we cannot say the same for him. Firstly, he has lived an extremely brutal life as described below. But despite all he had seen, he “shrank back in horror” at seeing Abeloth, and to him she was a “nightmare.” He was “terrified” at the prospect of entering her mind, terrified more only by the idea he would let her slowly kill him without fighting back.




let’s not forget that Abeloth’s appereance was meant to provoke immense horror on her victims. For example, she has able to make some sith sabers commit suicide on one occasion simply by using illusions of her appearance (which, as confirmed in the essential reader’s companion, she also used against Vol): 

But it was the tentacles that were the most gruesome. They would shoot out from the ghost’s fingertips to lodge themselves in the eyeballs or nostrils or ears of an intruder. What looked like thumb-sized drops of dark Force energy would pulse down the tentacles, and with each globule, the phantasm seemed to growa bit more solid and real looking.
As the ghosts grew more opaque, they stopped belching brown fumes and started to spew flame. Before long, there appeared to be wildfires springing up everywhere, driving the Sith toward the edges of the village, screaming and stumbling just as Gavar Khai had done. Within seconds, the fastest Sith had reached a lowstone wall that separated part of the village from a thousand-meter plunge to the sea.
When Luke saw the first warrior vault over the wall and drop screaming out of sight, all doubt about the woman before him vanished. No Adept of the White Current would have used her art to kill any being so casually.
Luke immersed himself within the Current again. The scene before him changed from horror to simple madness, with the Fallanassi standing pressed against their huts while the Sith flailed at empty air and rolled in the moss, trying to smother flames that did not exist.
Fate of the Jedi: Vortex


As such, the mere fact that Vol was not paralyzed by the terror is a testament to his willpower. This is without taking into account the fact (that you seem not to take into account ) that he remained calm enough to come up with an effective strategy to take her down, which he certainly wouldn’t have been able to do in a situation of great tension. And no, the novel does not mention him fearing to enter Abeloth’s mind, it simply states that he had to enter her mind in order to defeat her by using the force technique he had recently learned, mnemotheraphy. His fear was simply at the idea of dying without a fight. Furthermore, the ERC makes it clear that Vol’s willpower played a key role in Abeloth’s defeat: 

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) F6EoOGU3QPuLhrrYlWzdIJE-XTIyv6aM__jyeigiezPdKlDxBRftTfMv-lsnkhTBZQRrxKcd_RfnJMETANIJw25Iee3oPthrFRk4O4dLywmS-B42Z_MtS7oUIcvf2IBeuaIMFbpk
-from the essential reader’s companion 
The use of words and expressions such as “keen mind”, “he is able to peer past Abeloth’s illusions “ , or “frustrated with Vol’s tenacity” do indicate that, for all intents and purposes, the grand lord can withstand , for a fair amount of time, a direct telepathic attack from Abeloth. This leads us into your next point. 

ILS wrote:But it gets worse. Evicting Vol from her mind, Abeloth caused him “the most exquisite agony” he had ever experienced to “race through every part of his being.” He was left on the ground powerless, sweat soaked and terrified. He, to his own shock, could only get mumbled words which sounded senile and, perhaps worst of all, he even started weeping… yes… the Grand Lord of the Sith, near the end of his life in which he has seen every kind of horror, was brought to tears by this traumatic experience. As he says, this is the “greatest mistake” he has ever made.


I think you are somewhat misinterpreting the text. Yes, I agree it was a traumatic experience, however:
1- the agony was caused by an exertion of force power from an  Abeloth hat had been just severy injured, as she herself notes later (link ), not the terror caused by Abeloth’s appereance.
2- the likely reason he was left weak and feeble had more to do with the the effect the attack on Abeloth’s mind had on his force reserves in fact the novel states “he put everything he had into the attack” (link ), indicating tremendous effort. Let’s not forget that, without the force, Vol is little more an extremely old man. Again it has nothing to do with the effects of Abeloth’s illusions, which, as we know, he was able to overcome. 


ILS wrote:By now you should see where I’m going with this. Given Wyyrlok’s mastery of Force Illusions and Memory Walk, he’s going to be able to take this extremely traumatic moment in Vol’s life, characterised by weakness, fear, regret, shame and agonising pain of the worst kind, and amplify it even further in an endless loop - a loop where there is no sight of hope, no sight of even getting out alive. Vol is going to be faced with the reality that in attempting to ally with Abeloth, he destroyed his cherished Sith Order that he spent a lifetime trying to build and maintain, along with the immense trauma he experienced battling Abeloth in her own mind, which left him in a near-death state.




Fair point. But think about that for a second: if Vol could guard against a largely-mind attack from a being who, as I think I do not need to explain why, is far more powerful than Wyyrlok, and is himself a very strong telepath, what are the odds of him falling for Wyyrlok’s memory walk?. Furthermore, Vol never seemed to be too overtly hampered by the loss of his city. In fact, right before his death, he was starting to rebuild the sith order to its former greatness , by using the Jedi temple on coruscant as his new base and infiltrating into the GA’s government, which indicates he had recovered from the shock and was starting towards a new beginning. Ultimately, we know from past examples, such as the fight between Darth Maladi and Cade Skywalker that memory walk can be resisted and sent back towards the attacker, which I feel is what would likely happen should the duel come down to a telepathic contest. 

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) YhHHHJLUX9QBOEv_uMMgXC2RGzTqXKWCX6_zKuL45g9aaqkwXustkj7l3XjRCngc7KtMBzOmXT_6YGnR8PWAy8cIjRvxdbp4B1kgFopx_22Kck5qUALRYOnQBSSF_jRtPw3ElZWL


Vol>>>Wyyrlok: a small case study





Interestingly enough, I found some indication that Vol’s power far exceeds Wyyrlok’s. Comparing both to the same individual, Darth Krayt it’s clear who’s superior. 
Let’s begin by comparing Krayt and Vol: both fight Abeloth and are somewhat able to contend with her power. In Vol’s case (link for the full fight ), although his victory ultimately came only through a technique Abeloth was vulnerable to, the text makes clear he could defend himself from her force attacks: it uses statements such as “ wrapping himself" in a Force barrier, “resisted" attacks from Abeloth's tentacles which were a form of Force energy and "rooted himself" against "a blast of Force anger". In Krayt’s case he was able to defend himself from a TK attack. However, when one takes into account the circumstances involved, it becomes clear Vol’s feat against her was far better. First of all, when Krayt and Luke faced Abeloth she was weakened by having just lost an avatar to Tahiri Veila and Boba Fett along with having to fight Ben, Vestara and Saba at the same time. This is specifically made note of in the aforementioned ERC: 


the essential reader's companion wrote:he strain of battling on so many fronts weakens her

Secondly, Krayt was likely to be empowered by the font of power, which is noted by Ben in Apocalypse as being probably “the most potent [nexus] in the galaxy”. 
Now, one may argue that since Krayt was beyond shadows he wasn’t able to draw on it, however we have seen on many occasions that it can be drawn upon even in that realm, and given the circumstances it would make sense 


```He turned back toward Taalon and found him facing the center of the courtyard, where the Font of Power was gurgling inside its pall of yellow steam. Luke could feel that it was imbued with the same dark Force energy he had sensed the first time he had come here, in the company of his Mind Walking guides from Sinkhole Station. Whatever the fountain’s connection to Abeloth might be, he knew that its dark power would be an irresistible temptation to Taalon.```
Allies 

```When he reached the basin, Luke could finally see through the curtain of steam to the font itself. It was a jet of water about as thick as his leg, so filled with sulfur and iron that it was as brown as a tree trunk—and so permeated with Force energy that it literally sent him stumbling back, his head spinning and his stomach churning. The fountain was not just tainted with dark side power, it was imbued with it—as if it were rising up from some deep-buried reservoir of dark side energy that had been building, preparing to blow for not just millennia, but since the beginning of time itself.```
Abyss (credit to Goat for both quotes)


Such circumstances were not present when Vol confronted her, yet he performed very similarly. The fact that Krayt was struggling despite indicates he cannot do the same under normal circumstances. His would also explain why Krayt seemingly appears to be a Luke Skywalker level force user, a level of power he never displayed in any other of his appereances.  As such, we can see that Vol exceeds Krayt as of Apocalypse in power by an at least moderate margin.
Now, as you know very well, Krayt‘s Vong implants gradually his body in the next 86 years, to the point where it took a severe toll on his body to simply take down Fel’s empire.In fact, By the time of his ascension to the position of Emperor, his body was literally failing. 


SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) QjVI1aPN4K9pDqgaBrcnwY6sNdJUxV81U3uEnTQ7pkBzjFZ0r8mi4QtvQ-T3sAiZloapmsyHa0cPUc9qIUYANfbOcPj4S4609Mkx-GEgNX3W-CsUuJj-ED_KwaDfH1wy8SipJ9a-
-the complete star wars encyclopedia

Krayt seeks someone who can heal him of the Yuuzhan Vong infection which is slowly overtaking his body. But thus far his efforts to rid himself of the Vong parasites have failed.”
Star Wars: Legacy #0.5



Despite this clear weakness of Krayt’s, he remained superior to Wyyrlok, with a quote even attesting that Krayt far surpasses him: 

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) 81xtMRLdRC2AdjAIAfpKHmdqbxgimmAPvauHd_diunvPb9MUTmEZaCuQ1VtxuTELu4GKHczx--doZ-A-xJcbs568phHTJbx_ul5t3p7Ztoqr_E7WaAiZcEPD6DfrVebVsj6eclOb


“Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.”
—Star Wars Insider #113



 
This is all confirmed by the fact that Wyyrlok did not attempt to betray Krayt until the latter was literally unconscious after his fight with Muur. 

So ultimately we have Vol>FOTJ Krayt>>Vector Krayt>>Wyyrlok
I don’t I need to explain why the chagrian Sith Lord is completely outclassed by his opponent. 

Conclusion 






  • In the first half of my post I proved that your argument about the effectiveness of Wyyrlok’s memory walk against Vol’s mind is dubious at best. 

  • In the second half I presented a small scaling ( which I shall further expand in my second post) that shows Vol’s tremendous superiority over his opponent.

MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 3:59 am
tags: @ILS (good luck with your response) @Shioz @IdrisianGraecus @HellfireUnit @NotAA3
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 4:10 am
Amazing. Thanks for the tag.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 4:11 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:Amazing. Thanks for the tag.
Thank you
Shioz
Shioz

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 6:04 am
@MasterCilghal very nice and interesting post.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 6:06 am
@Shioz wrote:@MasterCilghal very nice and interesting post.
Thanks
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 8:49 am
@MasterCilghal Really good post... TAEP
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SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

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