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Level Three
Level Three

Ki-Adi-Mundi (Rogue Emperor) vs Corran Horn (Admiral Ackbar) Empty Ki-Adi-Mundi (Rogue Emperor) vs Corran Horn (Admiral Ackbar)

August 12th 2021, 3:38 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
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Ki-Adi-Mundi (Rogue Emperor) vs Corran Horn (Admiral Ackbar) Suspec11

(Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith)
(Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse)

The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: In addition:

- Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
- Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
Admiral Ackbar
Admiral Ackbar

Ki-Adi-Mundi (Rogue Emperor) vs Corran Horn (Admiral Ackbar) Empty Re: Ki-Adi-Mundi (Rogue Emperor) vs Corran Horn (Admiral Ackbar)

August 12th 2021, 3:59 am
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Corran Horn is an extremely powerful Jedi Master who lived during the time of the New Jedi Order. A master of mind control and manipulation, Corran Horn was able to manipulate the minds of powerful Jedi such as Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron, as well as defeating formidable opponents such as Mara Jade and Shedao Shai in combat.

“Horn, who has become one of the most capable Jedi of Luke Skywalker’s new order, grew up never knowing his true heritage” -Star Wars Databank (Old)

Mind Manipulation
Corran Horn was extremely proficient at the tactic of manipulating minds.

“In one experiment, I implanted a vision of dinner being served in Dorsk 81's mind, summoning him and Kyp back from one of their hikes though they were still half a kilometer away.” (I, Jedi)
To give you an idea of how impressive this is, in 11 ABY, Luke attempted to probe Kyp Durron’s mind. This is what happened:

“Luke remembered the dark-haired teen Han had rescued from the black spice mines. When Luke had used a Jedi testing technique to see if Kyp had potential to use the Force, the boy’s response had knocked Luke across the room. In his entire Jedi search, Luke had never encountered such power.” (Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice)

Though, at least at the time, Kyp Durron was more powerful than Corran Horn, the fact that Corran was able to implant visions in Kyp’s mind speaks to his impressive power. This is not an isolated event. He was able to mind trick the entire Jedi Academy, including Luke Skywalker, into believing he had lifted a massive rock.

“Luke had arranged us in a circle around a huge boulder buried halfway into the ground. He nodded toward it. "You have all been told repeatedly that size does not matter. This is true. However, this does not mean all tasks will be simple. This rock, for all we know, is really just the top of a long plinth. We don't know how big it is. Moving it may not only take a titanic effort, but a sustained effort. With the Force flowing through you, you will be able to move it. If the Force is not flowing, the task will not be completed."
He looked at each and every one of us openly. "Who would be first to try?"
Gantoris took a step forward. "Master, I would."
"Master, if you please," I bowed my head toward him. "I would be the first to do."
Gantoris sneered in my direction. "You? You will do nothing."
Luke looked at me. "Do you think you are ready?"
I shrugged. "I believe I must do this. Perhaps in focusing on small things I have closed myself down to the Force. To feel it I must open myself to something more grand." I looked around the circle, making eye contact with everyone. "I must move this rock, therefore I will move it. This I believe."
Newly empowered, I reached out for the stone. In a heartbeat I plumbed its depths. I knew its size and mass, I knew its contours and its weaknesses. I knew I could shape the Force into a hammer and shatter it, but that was not the task at hand. My task was to move it, to rip it from the ground, to raise it up so all could see what I had done.
I poured the Force into my effort. At first I felt resistance, but I expected that. The stone had been firmly stuck in the ground for years. I tugged at it and could see it rocking back and forth. Small pebbles cascaded off it, bouncing down into the grasses at its base. I worried it like a loose tooth, then I prepared to pull it.
I gritted my teeth against the effort. I felt the stone shift. Before my mind's eye I saw it quiver and shake. Slowly, slowly at first it began to move upward. A micron here, a millimeter there, then a centimeter, then two. Then four and six and twenty. Rich brown loam fell from it as the lower half of the stone began to rise above the surface. Faster it moved now, slowed only by the occasional clumsy bump against the side of the hole it had inhabited. My control was not yet fine, but I knew it would get better, so I pushed on, working on lifting it higher.
The stone came fully clear of the ground, but that was not enough for me. I could feel the Force pulsing into me, full and insistent. I channeled it back out through my mind and made the rock's ascent smooth. I lifted it and lifted it up so high that when I opened my eyes, I knew I would be able to see beneath it and find Master Luke across the circle from me. I would lift it so high, in fact, that not even Gantoris could deny what I had done.
Finally I had success. The stone hung in the air better than two meters above the ground. I held it there and redoubled my effort to quell the list in it. I wanted it as firmly embedded in the Force and air as it had been in the ground. When it stopped moving, I smiled and opened my eyes.
The rock remained in the ground.
I stared at it and tried to remember if I had heard it crash back down into the ground. I couldn't remember such a sound, nor could I remember feeling the shockwave that would have resulted from a crash landing. I glanced up at where the rock should have been, then back down. I couldn't believe it had not moved because I knew I had felt the Force, and I knew the rock had flown.
Then I noticed that all the others, every single one of them, were looking at the spot in the air where I had seen the rock floating. Tionne and Streen wore open expressions of wonderment. Kam wore the smirk with which he rewarded good efforts. Gantoris looked as if he'd seen a ghost and the others just looked amazed.
Across from me Luke should his head, then passed a hand over his eyes. He glanced back at the spot in the air where the rock should have been, then his gaze flicked toward where it really lay. He looked around at the other students, then gently passed a hand through the air, causing them to blink and rub their eyes.” (I, Jedi)

Corran Horn was able to mind trick the entire Jedi Academy, including Luke Skywalker, with minimal training. It should be noted that Corran gets significantly more powerful as time progresses. So this shows only a fraction of Corran’s true power. Indeed, almost all the feats of Corran come from when he is either vastly pre-prime or badly injured.

Dueling Abilities
He defeated Mara Jade in combat. Corran noted that he could have easily killed Mara.

“I could have just as easily switched blade lengths as you went to beat my blade aside. A stop thrust is very effective against an incoming enemy, if you know the enemy is incoming. I figured you'd have to press your attack. I doubled the blade, giving you a way to take my weapon out of play, then killed the blade as you went to knock it aside. Another touch of the thumb and you get spitted.”" (Dark Tide II: Ruin) (Corran is talking to Mara)

In order to demonstrate how impressive this is, firstly we must note that Mara Jade is near the level of Jacen Solo in Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice. Indeed, she duels, injures, and nearly defeats Jacen- who, by that point, was a “complete master of the force.”

"They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary feats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely.
Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.
He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.
The effort froze Jacen for two vital seconds. But he knew if he didn't get up now and fight back, Mara would come in for the kill, again and again, until he was worn down and too weak to fend her off.
He scrambled to his feet, staggering more than standing, and suddenly understood.
It was Mara who had to die to fulfill his destiny.
Killing her was the test: the words of the prophecy were meaningless, and at a visceral level he knew that her death was the pivotal act. He didn't know how, and this wasn't the time to stop and think about it. He surrendered totally to instinct for the first time in ages. Whatever guided a Sith's hand had to guide him now.
But he was hurt, and badly.
Ben ... he didn't know where Ben fitted into this, but now he knew he did, as surely as he knew anything. Jacen didn't care, because he knew he had to kill Mara now and nothing else would make sense until he did that.
He fumbled for his lightsaber and thumbed it into life again. Mara was already back on her feet, coming at him with the shoto and vibroblade, brick dust and black-red blood snaking down her forehead from a scalp cut. She leapt at him with the shoto held left-handed, fencing-style, seared the angle of his cheekbone, and caught him under the tip of chin with the vibroblade as he jerked back.
She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.
He drew his dart gun and fired one after the other, but Mara scattered all four needles in a blur of blue light. They fell to the ground. He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry, until she Force-leapt onto his back and brought him down.
They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. Mara, manic and panting, flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust.
"Ben . . . I'll see you dead first. . . before . . . you get . . . Ben."
Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now.
"You can't beat me," he gasped. "It's not meant to be."
"Really?" Mara snarled. "I say it is."
Then she launched herself at him—unthinking, a wild woman, hair flying—and he Force-pushed to send her slamming against a pillar in midleap. But the battering he'd taken and the ferocity of her relentless attack had blinded him to danger from another quarter. As he lurched backward to avoid her, his legs went from under him and he stumbled into a gaping crack opened up by the subsidence. He fell badly: red-hot pain seared from ankle to knee. His lightsaber went flying. Pain could be ignored, but the moment it took him to get to his feet again was enough for Mara to right herself and come back at him with the shoto and plunge it into the soft tissue just under the end of his collarbone.
Lightsaber wounds hurt a lot more than he ever imagined. Jacen screamed. He summoned his own weapon back to his hand and Mara crashed into him, knocking him flat again and pinning him down. Her vibroblade stopped a hand span from his throat as he managed to grab her hair and drag her face nearer and nearer to his lightsaber. She struggled to pull back, hacking at him with the shoto but blocked by his dwindling Force power each time.
Her vibroblade grazed his neck. He fumbled in his belt for a dart. She jerked back with a massive effort, leaving him clutching a handful of red hair, and the only thing that crossed his mind as she arched her back and held her arms high to bring both shoto and vibroblade down into his chest was that she would never, ever harm Ben.
Jacen stared into her eyes and instantly created the illusion of Ben's face beneath her. She blinked.
It gave him the edge for that fraction of a moment. It was long enough to ram the poison dart into her leg with its protective plastoid cone still in place.
It was just a small needle, ten centimeters long. He stabbed her so hard that the sharp end punched through the cone and the fabric of her pants.
Mara gasped and looked down at her leg as if she was puzzled rather than hurt. The dart quivered as she moved, and then fell to the floor.
"Oh . . . it's done . . ." Jacen said. The shoto fell from her hand and she made a vague and uncontrolled pawing movement with the vibroblade. It caught him in the bicep, but there was no strength behind the blow, and she dropped the weapon. "I'm sorry, Mara. Had to be you. Thought it was Ben. But it's over now, it's over . . ."
"What have you done? What the stang have you done to me?" But she was already losing her balance as the poison paralyzed her, and she slumped to one side as he got to his feet, staring up at him more with shock than rage or fear.
"The prophecy." It didn't matter now: the toxin—complex, relatively painless—was circulating through her body. "Don't fight it. No healing trance. Just let go . . ."
Mara tried to get up but sank back to sit on her heels, with an expression as if she'd forgotten something and was trying to remember. She crumpled against the wall. Jacen had never felt such relief. It didn't have to be Allana, or Tenel Ka, or even Ben. It was over, all over.
"What?" Mara said. She tried to put her fingers to her lips, shaking, but her hand fell back to her lap. She looked at them as if expecting to see blood.
Jacen suppressed his instinct to help her. "It's my destiny, Mara—to be a Sith Lord, and bring order and justice. I had to kill you to do it. You're going to save so many people, Mara. You've saved Ben. You've saved Allana, too. It's not a waste, believe me."
"You're ... as vile as he was."
Jacen could hardly understand what she was saying. "Who?"
"It's not like that," he said. He had to make her see what was happening. It was important. He owed her that revelation. She'd made the sacrifice, although he was now starting to wonder what that meant for whatever love he had to give up. "It's not about ambition. It's about the galaxy, about peace. It's about building a different world."
She stared back at him, and now he could see—and feel—her disgust. He wasn't sure if it was aimed at him or at herself.
Jacen hurt. He was starting to feel the full extent of his injuries, and he needed to heal himself. He also needed to get out of this tunnel.
Mara was breathing heavily now, one hand slack in her lap but the other still clenching and unclenching as if trying to form a fist to give him one final punch. Her vivid green eyes were still bright with relentless purpose. He knew he would try to forget them every day of his life.
"You think . . . you've won," she said, slurred, but utterly lucid and unafraid. "But Luke will crush you . . . and I refuse ... to let you . . . destroy the future . . . for my Ben."
Jacen sat and waited, almost expecting a prophecy from her to help him make sense of what he'd done. But after a few moments, he felt the final discharge of elemental energy that every Force-user would notice and comprehend.
Ben was the last word she ever spoke." (Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice)

Mara is also more powerful than Lumiya.

"The Empire's deadliest agent married to the Rebel Alliance's greatest hero. The irony is thick, but many on both sides relish the symbolism. As Luke Skywalker's wife and one of the few Jedi Masters of the New Jedi Order, Mara Jade finds it hard to stay out of the public's eye.” (The New Essential Guide to Characters)

She later sends Lumiya running.

“Mara's autopilot kicked in and she was the Emperor's Hand again, silent and focused. There was nothing worth saying anyway. Amateurs gave speeches; professionals got on with the job.
She Force-leapt five meters at Lumiya, slashing down right to left, two-handed. The stroke—all power, no finesse—clipped the Sith's headdress as she sprang back, slicing off a section. Lumiya's eyes widened, pupils dilated, but she was already whirling her lightwhip about her head. The tails crackled and hissed, missing Mara only because she threw all her energy into a Force push to slow them a fraction.
Mara didn't take that weapon lightly. It was the worst of both worlds, leather strips studded with impervious Mandalorian iron fragments and tendrils of sheer, raw, murderous dark energy. Mara drew her blaster and rolled under the hull of the ship next to her. The light-whip gouged through the durasteel with a shriek of tearing metal, filling the air with the smell of hydraulic fluid, and the spurt of liquid turned into a torrent that began spreading in a thick pool. As Mara rolled clear on the other side of the ship, Lumiya landed heavily on both feet and brought the whip down so close to Mara's head that she felt the rush of air on her right cheek like a breath. The crack was deafening.
Mara wasn't even thinking when she aimed the blaster. Lumiya's whip hand was raised to throw as much weight as possible from the back stroke. A puff of white vapor burst from Lumiya's shoulder, and she staggered a few paces.
Metal. Maybe I hit metal.
Maybe she had, because Lumiya teetered for a second but came right back. Mara sprang horizontally from a crouch and cannoned into Lumiya's legs with all the power she could muster from the Force. She hit solid durasteel. Blood filled her mouth but she couldn't feel a thing—yet. Clinging to Lumiya's knees with one arm, denying her the space to swing the whip, she brought her down like a felled tree before smashing her head into the woman's face.
And that hurt. Oh yes, Mara felt that. She'd caught not Lumiya's nose but the cybernetic jaw, and it cut deep into her forehead. Fighting on pure reflex now, part stunned, she killed the lightsaber blade for a second and held the hilt like a dagger, stabbing it down into Lumiya's chest before flicking the energy back on. Lumiya pulled to the side as the blade punched through flesh. Mara smelled it. She flicked off the blade to pull back again, triumphant.
I've done it. Dead. Dead, you—
But Lumiya was screaming, and that wasn't right at all. The scream seared through Mara's spinning head. It was more than sound. It was—
Mara scrambled to her knees to look down at what should have been a dead woman, and stared into green eyes that were utterly devoid of any emotion, and then the world darkened like an eclipse.
Maybe I'm the one who's dead.
Something hit her square in the back, pitching her forward onto Lumiya. Mara struggled to turn over without letting go of either lightsaber or blaster, but something coiled around her neck and jerked her backward. The lightwhip was still in Lumiya's fist, she could see the thing, she could see it, so what was around her neck, choking her? She felt as if she was flying backward at high speed, and then she hit something so hard that it punched every bit of breath out of her lungs and left her gulping for air.
A second or two was all it took. Mara lay trying to suck in air in painful, straining gulps, eyes stinging, and saw Lumiya's boots run past her face at a stagger, missing her by centimeters.
What's in my eyes? What's stinging?
She raised her hand to rub them and her knuckles came away red and wet. It was blood. The last thing she saw as she looked up was the orange sphere, that impossible Sith ship, soaring vertically into the air and extending webbed vanes like living wings.” (Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice)

Lumiya is quite powerful- she fights Luke Skywalker to a standstill. The same Luke Skywalker who moved black holes, was more powerful than UnuThul, and saw 15 years into the future, along with other impressive feats. This means that at the very least, Mara, and therefore Corran, is near LOTF Luke in power.

“In addition to being a cocky teenager alone in a galaxy at war, Ben might now be the target of one of the galaxy's deadliest killers-a woman who had fought Luke to a standstill mere weeks before.”
(Legacy of the Force: Exile)

"I don't think the three of us are a match for Lumiya. She fought the Grand Master to a standstill. She's Master level. We're two Jedi Knights and one Force-blind space jockey." (Legacy of the Force: Exile)

She’s also more powerful than Jaina, Zekk, and Jagged Fel combined, a powerful and deadly trio. Yet Corran has proven that his victory against Mara was not a fluke. Only days after he obliterated Mara, a badly injured and vastly pre-prime Corran faced off against Shedao Shai.

Shai was one of the highest ranking Yuuzhan Vong commanders. Seeing as the rank one obtains in the Vong society is based off of combat skill, Shai was certainly an impressive fighter. The New Jedi Sourcebook even calls him nigh invincible.

“Shedao Shai is a powerful Yuuzhan Vong warrior and commander of the battle fleet that assaults Garqi, Agamar, Dathomir, and Ithor. Lean and fierce, he is a frightening figure, deadly in combat and nigh invincible in battle. His body bears the marks of dozens of honors, a sign of the respect accorded him by his people.” (New Jedi Order Sourcebook)

Despite this, Corran is able to defeat Shai.

Horn eventually confronted Shedao Shai, and they agreed to a duel: Corran fighting for Ithor, and Shedao Shai for the remains of Mongei Shai. Horn barely managed to defeat the commander, but that left Deign Lian in command of the alien fleet.” (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)

It should be noted that Corran was unfamiliar with the Yuuzhan Vong, and that he couldn’t use the force against the Vong during his fight since the Vong did not belong to the force.

Yet one of Corran’s greatest feats comes during the Liberation of Coruscant. Corran was injured, having lost two fingers and having a broken knee swollen to the size of a hubbagourd. To picture how badly his knee was swollen, here’s a picture of a hubbagourd:

Despite this, Corran duels four Sith Sabers- and wins.

“A heartbeat later Corran was on the far side of the stack head. Nothing remained between him and the stack heads but the four still-tumbling Sith… Corran cut down the last of the Sith between him and the shield generator.”

Now, Sith Sabers are quite impressive. Their role is equal to that of a Jedi Knight, and they have trained for decades in combat. One example of their power is they mind trick millions of Coruscanti civilians into believing the Jedi were running a spice cartel.

“The few passengers onboard seemed transfixed by her silky, hypnotic voice, which rolled across the platform in a steady, hypnotic pattern that Luke recognized as a force technique used to lull listeners into a receptive state of mind.
Civilians are advised to avoid confronting members of the spice cartel,” the newscaster was saying. Eramuth Bwua’tu had recognized her as Kayala Fei, a Sith Saber who had been planted on the staff of the BAMR News Network.”

This propaganda was highly effective, with Mirax Terrik noting some civilians had begun to take up arms against the Jedi. In addition, the passengers on the train Luke was on seemed transfixed by Fei’s voice. It’s safe to say that Sith Sabers are very powerful and deadly.
So let me say this again: while injured badly, Corran defeated four Sith sabers. This only demonstrates his excellent skill as a combatant.

Corran is quite fast as well. He literally has inhuman reaction times.

She turned her head to see a thick-chested man with a thin, greying beard and startling green eyes. He stood two meters from her, staring at her, smiling. He wore Jedi robes.
“I’ll say this once,” Corran said. “Give up now.”
She raised the blowgun and fired.
Horn plucked the dart from the air. He opened a datapad, dropped the dart onto the screen, and snapped the device closed. (Legacy of the Force: Exile)

Darts shot from blowguns can travel hundreds of feet per second. Given that Alema Rar is a powerful Dark Jedi, and that a good blow dart user can fire a blowdart at 400 feet per second, I think that 500 feet per second, or about 150 meters per second, is a good estimate for the speed of a blowdart. Since Corran was standing two meters away, that means that he had 1/75th of a second to catch a blowdart.

That’s 25 times faster than the average human reaction speed and over 9 times faster than the fastest human reaction speed ever recorded. And keep in mind Corran likely caught the dart somewhere out in front of him, and that he didn’t just block the dart, he also caught it. This not only means that Corran’s reaction time was faster than previously shown, but also that he has insanely impressive dexterity, since he plucked the dart from the air.

Corran is very proficient at tutaminis. Indeed, he stops an attack from Kyp Durron, an extremely powerful force user as I explained earlier.

Kyp struck at me again through the Force, but I expected it this time. I relaxed and let the Force energy flow over and through me. I absorbed enough of it to let me create a shield that split the attack. The fact that I didn't end up being ground back against the wall surprised him. ( I, Jedi)

Rather than resisting the effects of energy damage, you actually absorb the damage and turn it to your advantage. Corran Horn is one of the few Jedi who have mastered this esoteric technique. (The New Jedi Order Sourcebook)

Summary of Corran Horn
Corran Horn is clearly a powerful Jedi. He is an expert at mind illusions, even putting illusions in the heads of the most powerful Jedi of the New Jedi order. His dueling abilities is near that of Luke Skywalker, as he defeats nigh-invincible enemies such as Shedao Shai, and extremely powerful foes like Mara Jade and Sith Sabers.

Horn’s opponent, Ki-Adi-Mundi, is no match for Horn. Indeed, Ki-Adi-Mundi was bested by General Grievous.

This is the same General Grievous who was defeated by a couple of Gungans.


Ki-Adi-Mundi is a powerful Jedi Master- but he is no match for the likes of Corran Horn. Though considering that the average Jedi Knight of the NJO era is stronger than the average prequel-era Jedi Knight, I’m not surprised.

NOTE: I'm bad at formatting on SI, so feel free to check out this google doc where it's formatted much better.
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