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Tybalt
Tybalt

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 6:32 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

A massively pre-prime Bane can resist Kaan's telepathy.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 6:39 pm
@Tybalt wrote:
@SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

A massively pre-prime Bane can resist Kaan's telepathy.

True, but resisting TP is not necessarily a demonstration of power, Bane's own will power helps him resist Kaan's attempts. Ventress was capable of TPing Savage into a thrall. I could see Kaan's TP being able to affect him.
Tybalt
Tybalt

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 6:44 pm
@SnowxElf

True, but resisting TP is not necessarily a demonstration of power, Bane's own will power helps him resist Kaan's attempts. Ventress was capable of TPing Savage into a thrall. I could see Kaan's TP being able to affect him.

Kaan is not Ventress.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
Level Two
Level Two

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 6:59 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:
@Tybalt wrote:
@SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

A massively pre-prime Bane can resist Kaan's telepathy.

True, but resisting TP is not necessarily a demonstration of power, Bane's own will power helps him resist Kaan's attempts. Ventress was capable of TPing Savage into a thrall. I could see Kaan's TP being able to affect him.

Ventress is vastly more powerful than Kaan. Ventress never outright Tp'd Savage, she activated his dormant programming that was placed by a group of Nightsisters and Talzin herself. 

TP is also a great example of power. Consider

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Screen15
The main idea of Savage is that he is a replacement for Maul, Maul himself who was genuinely an eventual successor to Sidious in terms of potential.

So really if you want to argue Kaan could affect Savage you would also have to also put forward that Kaan could affect Sidious despite the fact that he could be shrugged of by PoD Bane


Have fun with that.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 7:02 pm
Ventress never outright Tp'd Savage, she activated his dormant programming that was placed by a group of Nightsisters and Talzin herself. 

gotcha
VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 7:41 pm
@Tybalt wrote:
@SnowxElf wrote:Kaan either mind rapes savage successfully or the team loses.

A massively pre-prime Bane can resist Kaan's telepathy.
I believe you, but could you provide some evidence?
Tybalt
Tybalt

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 7:56 pm
@VictreebelVictr

Bane stayed in the position of supplication until the Dark Lord was well out of sight, then stood up and brushed the dirt from his knees with a grim scowl. He had felt Kaan's efforts to dominate his mind, but they had had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar. Yet he had seized on the opportunity and delivered a performance worthy of the greatest dramatist on Alderaan.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 10:24 pm
@Tybalt wrote:@VictreebelVictr

Bane stayed in the position of supplication until the Dark Lord was well out of sight, then stood up and brushed the dirt from his knees with a grim scowl. He had felt Kaan's efforts to dominate his mind, but they had had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar. Yet he had seized on the opportunity and delivered a performance worthy of the greatest dramatist on Alderaan.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
Wow, awesome feat for Bane. Thanks. Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 1289255181

I have been convinced. Oppress murks them.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
Level One
Level One

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 6th 2021, 10:36 pm
Actually no, no I told myself I wasn't gonna get involved, so enjoy it.
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator
Moderator

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 7th 2021, 8:01 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 2829155256

@Tybalt wrote:@Praxis

It's made pretty clear that Maul is taken off guard there. It's kind of the point of the scene. He isn't tapping into the Force to augment his senses like he would during a normal fight. It's similar to when Anakin is watching Mace and Sheev fight in the ROTS novel and sees them as blurs even though he's on their level.

This is patently not true. Maul was in the middle of a training session and actively calling on the Force.

His surprise stems from Sidious interrupting his training session.

Do you think he's augmenting himself while Sidious is chewing him out lol? He isn't trying to fight Sheev; Sheev is scolding him and he's taking his licks. Maul let his guard down, he thought combat was over, then Sheev taught him a lesson. It's foreshadowing what happens with Kenobi. If Maul starts augmenting himself then what? Tracks Sheev's movements and evades them and then beats Sheev while unarmed? He's at a disadvantage and isn't going to make any hasty moves like augmenting himself while Sheev is disciplining him since Sheev would be able to sense that and see it as a challenge and then probably kill him since Maul wouldn't have a weapon to defend himself. There isn't any other reason Maul would augment himself besides if Maul planned on fighting Sidious, and it's pretty clear that wasn't in the cards for Maul in this situation.

@Tybalt wrote:Most of these sources are talking about skill, not power, and are contradicted by G-Canon which asserts that Maul is a level eight and Sidious is a level nine on the duelling scale created by George Lucas and Nick Gillard. The difference between the two levels is "enormous" according to Gillard.

"Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous."

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary

What do ROTS dueling tiers have anything to do with what we are talking about? We are talking about TPM Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 815462187. Sidious being a nine is his rating in ROTS and has no bearing on TPM.


@Tybalt wrote:As such I will only reply to the two sources that do talk about power.

I'm curious as to why you think "equally formidable" is in reference to just skill Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 1668617588

@Tybalt wrote:You have conveniently left out some key information that changes that scene completely. That being that Sidious wasn't even tapping into his Force reserves.

It wasn't an attempt at being underhanded, it was just irrelevant to my point. The fact that you would even suggest that I was being underhanded is pretty insulting and just reflects your lack of understanding. The line about reserves is in reference to their stamina. When Maul had reserves to draw on to replenish his stamina he was pushing Sheev to the brink, but then he lost because going into the fight Sheev was fresh while Maul was tired. Maul's reserves were spent because of his long ordeal on Hypori, unlike Sheev.

@Tybalt wrote:
Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Image0
Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

This source doesn't contradict Star Wars: Episode I Journal - Darth Maul. It just doesn't go into as much detail. The context of the scene remains the same though. Sidious "barely deflected" the blows (due to not tapping into his Force reserves) but "Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed."

The quote makes it clear that when Maul can actually draw on his reserves he can push Sheev to the brink of defeat, but he ran out of stamina quickly because he had spent his reserves earlier. Sheev didn't win because he was better, he won because Maul was already exhausted and wounded going into the fight.

---

We have quotes saying that when Maul fights Kenobi and Jinn he will the strongest fighter in the galaxy and that Maul is only slightly behind Sheev because of his (lack of) ability to scheme and not his ability in battle. We have the Hypori fight where Maul nearly defeats Sidious when Maul is able to draw on his reserves to restore his stamina and is staggering Sidious with his blows to the point that Sidious was visibly struggling to keep Maul at bay. We also have Darth Sidious saying that Maul's skill with a blade and as a warrior are peerless, and then another quote saying that Maul is the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy - a deadlier warrior than Sidious. Then finally by TPM, we have a quote saying that Maul and Sheev are equally formidable. There is much more supporting parity between Maul and Sheev in TPM than there is supporting a big gap between the two. Don't come at me with weak shit like not even knowing the difference between TPM and ROTS especially when you insult my credibility.

_________________
Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Uchiha_madara_gif__first_work__by_tussor-d84lh43
Tybalt
Tybalt

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 7th 2021, 10:00 pm
@Praxis

Do you think he's augmenting himself while Sidious is chewing him out lol? He isn't trying to fight Sheev; Sheev is scolding him and he's taking his licks. Maul let his guard down, he thought combat was over, then Sheev taught him a lesson. It's foreshadowing what happens with Kenobi. If Maul starts augmenting himself then what? Tracks Sheev's movements and evades them and then beats Sheev while unarmed? He's at a disadvantage and isn't going to make any hasty moves like augmenting himself while Sheev is disciplining him since Sheev would be able to sense that and see it as a challenge and then probably kill him since Maul wouldn't have a weapon to defend himself. There isn't any other reason Maul would augment himself besides if Maul planned on fighting Sidious, and it's pretty clear that wasn't in the cards for Maul in this situation.

Nowhere did I say that he was going to fight Sidious. What I said was that he had been actively using the Force literally seconds ago as you claimed he wasn't.

However,  shouldn't your assertion that the two are peers mean he should be capable of doing just that? Are they peers or not?

What do ROTS dueling tiers have anything to do with what we are talking about? We are talking about TPM Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 815462187. Sidious being a nine is his rating in ROTS and has no bearing on TPM.

You think Sidious improved his duelling skill between TPM and RotS? It's a duelling scale, not a power scale.

He mastered lightsaber combat by the time he killed Plagueis in 32 BBY, and there are no sources that state he got more skilled at lightsaber combat between TPM and RotS.

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I'm curious as to why you think "equally formidable" is in reference to just skill Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 1668617588

If he was "equally formidable" then he would kill Sidious "in true Sith tradition".

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It wasn't an attempt at being underhanded, it was just irrelevant to my point. The fact that you would even suggest that I was being underhanded is pretty insulting and just reflects your lack of understanding. The line about reserves is in reference to their stamina. When Maul had reserves to draw on to replenish his stamina he was pushing Sheev to the brink, but then he lost because going into the fight Sheev was fresh while Maul was tired. Maul's reserves were spent because of his long ordeal on Hypori, unlike Sheev.

You’d have me believe that a starving and weakened 17 year old Maul can beat a fresh Sidious only five years off of his TPM self? Really?

The context of the scene makes it clear that Sidious "barely deflected" the blows because he wasn’t augmenting himself.

The quote makes it clear that when Maul can actually draw on his reserves he can push Sheev to the brink of defeat, but he ran out of stamina quickly because he had spent his reserves earlier. Sheev didn't win because he was better, he won because Maul was already exhausted and wounded going into the fight.

See the above answer. Sidious wasn't augmenting himself which makes Maul's "accomplishment" meaningless. In fact if Maul had failed to do even that much then Sidious would likely have killed him on the spot. TPM Maul "had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him."

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

We have quotes saying that when Maul fights Kenobi and Jinn he will the strongest fighter in the galaxy and that Maul is only slightly behind Sheev because of his (lack of) ability to scheme and not his ability in battle. We have the Hypori fight where Maul nearly defeats Sidious when Maul is able to draw on his reserves to restore his stamina and is staggering Sidious with his blows to the point that Sidious was visibly struggling to keep Maul at bay. We also have Darth Sidious saying that Maul's skill with a blade and as a warrior are peerless, and then another quote saying that Maul is the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy - a deadlier warrior than Sidious. Then finally by TPM, we have a quote saying that Maul and Sheev are equally formidable. There is much more supporting parity between Maul and Sheev in TPM than there is supporting a big gap between the two. Don't come at me with weak shit like not even knowing the difference between TPM and ROTS especially when you insult my credibility.

Yet Qui-Gon "seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew" when they first faced off.

As the boy ran for the Queen's ship. Maul lashed out at the Jedi again and again, but the Jedi blocked each blow. Maul was suddenly aware that the Jedi seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew. Maul drew from the dark side of the Force and began to move faster, increasing the speed of his lunges along with his footwork. The Jedi kept up with Maul, but Maul soon sensed...

He's getting tired.

Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at the Jedi. Maul was certain he would defeat his opponent.

He will fall heavily, like a monument.

But the Jedi did not falter. As Maul spun and moved around the Jedi, he saw the Queen's starship lift off. He also saw the boarding ramp was still extended.

Maul leaped over the Jed, blocking his path to the rising ship, as their lightsabers continued to weave and smash into each other. The ship had just moved above their position when the Jedi leaped straight up and landed on the extended ramp, his lightsaber still blazing.


The Wrath of Darth Maul

Are you telling me that Sidious couldn't do the same as Qui-Gon? He'd do far better. He wouldn't tire and he would completely overwhelm Maul.

Yes, Maul then duelled Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan simultaneously but he was defeated by a rage-amped TPM Obi-Wan in the end. If it was Sidious against the duo you could expect something like he later did to Maul and Savage late into the Clone Wars.



We have quotes saying that when Maul fights Kenobi and Jinn he will the strongest fighter in the galaxy and that Maul is only slightly behind Sheev because of his (lack of) ability to scheme and not his ability in battle. We have the Hypori fight where Maul nearly defeats Sidious when Maul is able to draw on his reserves to restore his stamina and is staggering Sidious with his blows to the point that Sidious was visibly struggling to keep Maul at bay. We also have Darth Sidious saying that Maul's skill with a blade and as a warrior are peerless, and then another quote saying that Maul is the deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy - a deadlier warrior than Sidious. Then finally by TPM, we have a quote saying that Maul and Sheev are equally formidable. There is much more supporting parity between Maul and Sheev in TPM than there is supporting a big gap between the two. Don't come at me with weak shit like not even knowing the difference between TPM and ROTS especially when you insult my credibility.

There is nothing that supports any sort of parity between the two in Force power, and that you honestly believe that is baffling. Your reliance on skill quotes and a 17 year old Maul pushing an unaugmented Sidious in order to draw a link to parity in Force power is a weak argument at best. Sidious has always been far more powerful and that remained the case even late into the Clone Wars as you can see from the above Youtube video.
Praxis
Praxis
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Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 Empty Re: Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz

on January 11th 2021, 2:53 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@Tybalt wrote:Nowhere did I say that he was going to fight Sidious. What I said was that he had been actively using the Force literally seconds ago as you claimed he wasn't.

???

Point me to where I said that. He was obviously using the Force against the droids, I never disputed such. I claimed that Sidious was able to rip Maul's saber from his hand since he was taken off guard and that Maul wasn't using the Force when Sidious was disciplining him. At that point, Maul knew he fucked up and all he could do was take whatever Sidious delt. The fighting was over and it was time for him for his punishment. No fighting -> No aug.

---

@Tybalt wrote:However,  shouldn't your assertion that the two are peers mean he should be capable of doing just that? Are they peers or not?

???

Just think for like literally one second. If they are peers but one has a weapon and the other doesn't, who is most likely going to win the fight?

---

@Tybalt wrote:You think Sidious improved his duelling skill between TPM and RotS?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "skill" here, but dueling ability? Yes. It's a consequence of my argument and there isn't anything that I'm aware of which contradicts that. I'm pretty sure you're definition of skill isn't the same thing as the "skill" the dueling tiers signify though. You seem to think that Maul can be more skilled than Palpatine but still get blitzed due to a power difference, but that's not how the dueling tiers work. Someone who is less "skilled" and lower on the dueling scale isn't speedblitzing someone above them lol. In the movies, a tier eight is supposed to be a flat-out better duelist than the tier seven, and under normal circumstances, the eight is pretty much always going to beat the seven in a duel. Power is a factor when it comes to the tiers used for the movies.

@Tybalt wrote:It's a duelling scale, not a power scale.

Where did you get the notion that power isn't a component of the scale? Isn't it interesting that the most powerful characters in the movies are also the best duelists? One's power dictates how well they can augment their senses and physical capabilities, which are obviously a huge part of dueling ability. If your power grows then your dueling ability will also improve. It's pretty common knowledge and if you really need an explanation for that then perhaps you should spend more time reading Star Wars material instead of debating me.

---

@Tybalt wrote:He mastered lightsaber combat by the time he killed Plagueis in 32 BBY, and there are no sources that state he got more skilled at lightsaber combat between TPM and RotS.

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Where does it say he mastered lightsaber combat there? Not like it really matters anyway. Both TPM Maul and Kenobi are said to have mastered lightsaber combat but obviously, they both get better after the fact.

Star Wars Battle Packs: Sith Lord Attack wrote:Never in its long history have such powers clashed within the walls of the ancient Theed Royal Palace. Three warriors, each a master of lightsaber combat, contest for victory at the heart of the palace, their battle raging along the treacherous edge of a melting pit hundreds of meters deep. For the first time in a thousand years, the light and dark sides of the Force have joined in conflict.

Nothing you have presented so far would prevent Sheev from becoming a better duelist after TPM.

---

@Tybalt wrote:If he was "equally formidable" then he would kill Sidious "in true Sith tradition".

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Well apparently not, since he didn't. An official source states that they were equally formidable and you haven't provided any sources contradicting that. Nowhere in the quote you posted does it say that the apprentice must kill his master once he is just as formidable. The line "Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so" doesn't make any definitive claims about Palpatine's combative ability with respect to Plagueis and I'm not sure why you are claiming so. Also, lol at that quote incorporating skill as an important factor in overthrowing your master when you have just been handwaving "skill" quotes this whole time. Are you even trying?

---

@Tybalt wrote:You’d have me believe that a starving and weakened 17 year old Maul can beat a fresh Sidious only five years off of his TPM self? Really?

Where did I say that? Please show me. All I said is that Maul genuinely pushed him to near-defeat.

---

@Tybalt wrote:The context of the scene makes it clear that Sidious "barely deflected" the blows because he wasn’t augmenting himself.

What context? The "he has just begun to tap into his own reserves" part? I'm starting to think you don't know what the word "reserves" means. It's extra energy that Force users reserve for when they need to replenish their strength. When they run out of reserves, they run out of stamina. You would probably know that if you ever actually read any Star Wars books. I'll just give a couple of examples outside of the Hypori fight to help you understand:

Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace wrote:Lightsaber clutched in both hands, he stood watching helplessly as Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul battled on the narrow ledge that encircled the melting pit. A stream of electrons was all that separated him from the combatants, but it might as well have been a wall of permacrete three meters thick. Desperately he cast about for a triggering device that might shut the system down, but he had no better luck here than he'd had at the other end. He could only watch and wait and pray that Qui-Gon could hold on.

It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Star Wars: Jedi Path wrote:When using Form III to fight another saber-wielding enemy, a Jedi should pull all moves close to the body and seldom make sweeps or lunges. This creates a strong defensive cocoon that makes it difficult for an enemy to land more than a glancing blow. But it means that a Form III master is unable to mount a counterattack. Yet the minimalist defense preserves the Jedi’s energy reserves while simultaneously tiring an opponent, and an exhausted enemy will eventually slip up, allowing a Form III master to score a victory.

I, Jedi wrote:In doing all I'd done, I must have burned off most of my personal Force reservoir. I couldn't use it to link myself to the Force, to refresh myself. I was alone and tired, not thinking particularly sharply, but I knew one thing: if I stayed where I was, I'd be found and found out. The Jedi clearly survived the battle with Shala, but there was no way Jenos Idanian could have.

Also, Maul literally says that he can feel his master's power clash with his during the fight lol, so it's pretty clear that Sheev is augmenting himself.

Star Wars Episode I Journal - Darth Maul (2000) wrote:I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

I think I know where you are coming from when you say that Sidious wasn't tapping into the Force until the end, given the wording of the line about him just tapping into his reserves. When you read "he has just begun to tap into his own reserves" without really understanding what reserves actually are, it's easy to interpret that as "he hasn't been calling on the Force until now." The line does sound like it's speaking about that specific point in time, but the concept of reserves makes it so that's not necessary. If he has just begun to tap into his reserves, it could also mean that he has only utilized a small portion of his reserves, rather than just starting to use them at that very moment in the fight. To use an example, if someone said "they have just begun to drain the lake" it could either mean that at this very moment they just started draining the lake or they have barely drained the lake. When you don't understand reserves and think the line is simply referring to Sheev calling on the Force, you are going to just default to the assumption that the line is referring to time. Language can be subtle like that sometimes. Alter your understanding of a line and it changes its nature.

I honestly find it pretty funny though that you think Sidious was legitimately holding off Maul without even using the Force, especially since Sidious isn't exactly the most physically imposing character. Without the Force he's just a frail, middle-aged man. I can just picture Papa Sheev popping his hip while holding off the Force-enhanced, bloodlusted Zabrak who was bred for combat.

---

@Tybalt wrote:See the above answer. Sidious wasn't augmenting himself which makes Maul's "accomplishment" meaningless.

As you would say, see the above answer.

---

@Tybalt wrote:In fact if Maul had failed to do even that much then Sidious would likely have killed him on the spot. TPM Maul "had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him."

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Ok? I don't think you introduced any relevant information here lol. Sidious obviously didn't want to kill Maul on Hypori since he could've but didn't. If you're trying to say what I think you're trying to say, then please do explain to me why not trying to kill someone in a fight necessitates that they are holding back. If someone isn't trying to kill someone in a fight then they will just use a non-lethal attack to debilitate them rather than a lethal blow. That doesn't mean they are going to fight any less fervently. And it's not like Sheev had to pull his punches to avoid accidentally killing Maul with his lightsaber, since Sheev was using a training lightsaber and not a lethal weapon.

---

@Tybalt wrote:Yet Qui-Gon "seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew" when they first faced off.

As the boy ran for the Queen's ship. Maul lashed out at the Jedi again and again, but the Jedi blocked each blow. Maul was suddenly aware that the Jedi seemed to anticipate each lunge and jab, as if he knew how Maul would move before Maul himself knew. Maul drew from the dark side of the Force and began to move faster, increasing the speed of his lunges along with his footwork. The Jedi kept up with Maul, but Maul soon sensed...

He's getting tired.

Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at the Jedi. Maul was certain he would defeat his opponent.

He will fall heavily, like a monument.

But the Jedi did not falter. As Maul spun and moved around the Jedi, he saw the Queen's starship lift off. He also saw the boarding ramp was still extended.

Maul leaped over the Jed, blocking his path to the rising ship, as their lightsabers continued to weave and smash into each other. The ship had just moved above their position when the Jedi leaped straight up and landed on the extended ramp, his lightsaber still blazing.


The Wrath of Darth Maul


Are you telling me that Sidious couldn't do the same as Qui-Gon? He'd do far better. He wouldn't tire and he would completely overwhelm Maul.

Yes, Maul then duelled Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan simultaneously but he was defeated by a rage-amped TPM Obi-Wan in the end. If it was Sidious against the duo you could expect something like he later did to Maul and Savage late into the Clone Wars.



Not really sure what the point of this part was but go off I guess. You didn't bring up anything here which contradicts what I've said so far.

---

@Tybalt wrote:There is nothing that supports any sort of parity between the two in Force power, and that you honestly believe that is baffling. Your reliance on skill quotes and a 17 year old Maul pushing an unaugmented Sidious in order to draw a link to parity in Force power is a weak argument at best. Sidious has always been far more powerful and that remained the case even late into the Clone Wars as you can see from the above Youtube video.

It's honestly baffling to me that you're still replying to my posts. The "skill" quotes and Hypori scene are supporting evidence for the "equally formidable" quote and it blows me away that you don't understand that - or perhaps you do? You've been trying to attack the supporting evidence (and failing) while putting the least amount of effort towards trying to attack the centerpiece of my argument. I'm not sure if it's because you don't recognize that it's the most important part of my argument or if you simply just can't muster a decent response. I'm betting on the latter. You haven't contradicted any of my points and you're clearly out of your depth, so please, save both of us some time and either concede or just stop replying.

_________________
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Tybalt
Tybalt

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on January 11th 2021, 7:07 am
@Praxis A truly baffling reply. It's as if you don't understand the implications of your own arguments, and you are not really reading my arguments or sources. Your interpretation of them is very curious to say the least. Attacking me at the end just makes your post look even weaker overall. I think I've offended you somehow as you are being very aggressive. Anyway, I've challenged you to an SS, which you haven't answered even though I tagged you.


Last edited by Tybalt on January 11th 2021, 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
lelandp23
lelandp23

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on January 11th 2021, 7:08 am
i side with the one who isn't weeb Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 3750555731
I_Like_Chee
I_Like_Chee
Level Six
Level Six

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on January 11th 2021, 7:17 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
It's always amusing to see new members try to act smart while getting destroyed.

Praxis greydolling.
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

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on January 11th 2021, 7:18 am
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CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

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on January 11th 2021, 7:19 am
^ The guy in the wheelchair laughing at the deaf man
lelandp23
lelandp23

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on January 11th 2021, 7:19 am
how am i getting destroyed when im not even debating weirdo
I_Like_Chee
I_Like_Chee
Level Six
Level Six

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on January 11th 2021, 7:21 am
@lelandp23 wrote:how am i getting destroyed when im not even debating weirdo

I wasn't talking about you.
lelandp23
lelandp23

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on January 11th 2021, 7:21 am
ok
Tybalt
Tybalt

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on January 11th 2021, 7:22 am
@I_Like_Chee wrote:It's always amusing to see new members try to act smart while getting destroyed.

Praxis greydolling.

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VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

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on January 11th 2021, 10:15 am
@I_Like_Chee wrote:It's always amusing to see new members try to act smart while getting destroyed.

Praxis greydolling.
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Vaelias
Vaelias

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on January 11th 2021, 10:20 am
Praxis ragdolling mr smartypants back to Chaos
Praxis
Praxis
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on January 11th 2021, 12:31 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@Tybalt wrote:@Praxis A truly baffling reply. It's as if you don't understand the implications of your own arguments, and you are not really reading my arguments or sources. Your interpretation of them is very curious to say the least. Attacking me at the end just makes your post look even weaker overall. I think I've offended you somehow as you are being very aggressive. Anyway, I've challenged you to an SS, which you haven't answered even though I tagged you.

Savage Opress vs Kaan, Kas'im and Kopecz - Page 2 0uosqTU

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Tybalt
Tybalt

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on January 11th 2021, 12:35 pm
@Praxis I accept your concession.
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