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SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Is Starkiller a mary sue? Empty Is Starkiller a mary sue?

July 9th 2019, 12:43 pm
Lets have a discussion
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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July 9th 2019, 12:49 pm
No.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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July 9th 2019, 1:52 pm
Well, no, because he's not female.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
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July 9th 2019, 2:24 pm
Azronger wrote:Well, no, because he's not female.
Gary su then
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

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July 9th 2019, 4:08 pm
No, and the people who say he is have clearly never read either of the TFU Novels.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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July 9th 2019, 4:34 pm
@SithSauce wrote:
Azronger wrote:Well, no, because he's not female.
Gary su then

I think the Mary Sue index codified by YouTuber IDRlabs that he used to analyze Anakin, Luke, and Rey is a good metric for all characters in general. The categories are as follows:

  • Overpowered
  • Unexplained power level
  • Perfectly good
  • No personality
  • Instantly liked
  • Feels like wish fulfillment
  • Not embarrassed / doesn't fail

Is Starkiller overpowered? Obviously. He had the Force potential to surpass Palpatine, and his actualized power is great enough to move Star Destroyers and atomize frigates among other ridiculous feats, and he beats Darth Vader in both games. This isn't a question, really.

Is his ludicrous power level unexplained, though? Well, in my opinion, yes and no. Starkiller was designed to be a powerhouse to facilitate fun gameplay, so there is technically a purpose for his power that was meant to be there from the very beginning, without which the game would not be the same experience. However, this is an out-of-universe explanation. As for an in-universe explanation, well, there isn't one, really. He was the child of two random, unremarkable Jedi Knights, and for no reason was an uber prodigy capable of the above and then some. Personally, I'd lean towards no.

Is Starkiller perfectly good? No, not really. He starts out as an emotionally stunted assassin who murders thousands with zealous fanaticism to Vader. Only gradually does he begin to question his purpose in the galaxy, and in the end redeems himself by sacrificing himself for the Rebellion. However, I think he is more good than he should be. As I said, this guy was raised in social isolation, ruthlessly trained to be an assassin in conditions that bordered on torture, his only "friend" being a homicidal droid who tried to kill him all the time. His psyche should be irrepairably fucked, yet for some reason he undoes most of it over the course of a few months, sacrificing his life for practically his high school crush and becoming a martyr for an anti-fascist movement fighting for the rights of all sentients. So there are definitely some characteristics of a Gary Stu here.

Does he have no personality? This is admittedly subjective. From the novelization, we do get glimpses of a deeper personality, but I don't think this ever really manifest outside his thoughts. He doesn't express himself to others, and in the game there isn't much to him. He's pretty bland in all honesty. Granted, you could justify this by appealing to his upbringing, in which case, fair enough, I guess it's somewhat realistic since his emotional growth was stunted.

Is Galen instantly liked? Well, besides being taken in by Vader for his immense Force potential, not really. He was basically tortured by Vader for over a decade, his only "friend" tried to constantly kill him, and Juno doesn't seem to express any warmth toward him until the middle of the story.

Does experiencing Starkiller's story feel like wish fulfillment? Well, again, this is subjective, but I'd say so. As I said, he was intentionally designed to facilitate the over-the-top gameplay. Like, the thought process of the developers was basically "How cool would it be to pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky or kick Darth Vader's ass?" On that basis I'd say he was definitely written to make the player feel awesome first, and an actual character second.

Is Starkiller flawless and go through his journey without any failure? No. He basically dies for trusting Vader at the start of the game. And although he does decide to turn on his Master and foment genuine resistance against the Empire, his plan is still contingent on placing his faith in Vader - he fails to learn from the same flaw that almost got him killed the first time, and this time his mistake costs him the life of his best friend and gets the leadership of the Rebellion captured and about to be executed. And even though he makes up for this by rescuing the Rebel leaders, he dies in the process.

So, overall, is Galen Marek a Gary Stu? I think you can make a case either way, but personally, I'd say he is more than he is not, although not completely. He is stupidly powerful for no reason given in the story. And the actual reason for his power level is that he was literally desgined to make the gameplay fun i.e. to satiate the player's needs. In that sense he is meant to be wish fulfillment more than an actual, three-dimensional character. But there was definitely an attempt to turn him into a real character. He has a story arc where he starts from point A and ends in point B, and he does experience significant struggle and failure along the way. However, for me, it is marred by the fact it's quite unrealistic for him to be psychologically capable of a 180 in such a short amount of time. While he's not perfectly morally good, he does become too good way too quickly, so for me, even the actual attempt to genuinely characterize Galen is permeated by Gary Stu-ness.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

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July 9th 2019, 9:48 pm
Az is being way too generous. Dude goes from having a good fight with Kota and Paratus and a shadow guard to tearing a star destroyer out of the sky in the span of one year. He doesn't have any explanation for his backround either, his parents are nobodies of the Jedi order, his mom dies off screen and his dad is sub dark lord the rise of darth Vader, darth vader. He grows up fighting a droid and apparently never lost once. Now if you read the lore, he gets the droid at i believe 6 years old or something like that, and there is no way in hell a little toddler could survive Proxy. Then he grows up, now keep in mind this kid is exhausted, every day Vader works him like a military soldier and he is ambushed by Proxy and he still doesn't lose. 

Flash forward to tfu 2 where we are thrown right in with the clone. He appears to have no real history other than being Vader's servant, for some ungodly and unrealistic reason he has the memories of his predecessor. While it might have been interesting to find out that the clone was the original, the other clones have the same memory as well so It's just silly. Sk escapes and runs to Juno in this twisted love obsession of guy grown in a vat on girl whose still mourning her lost boytoy. So he follows her, naturally murdering hundreds of innocent imperial troopers along the way, showing no remorse for being a cold blooded pyscho. He fights Vader in one of the dumbest fights ever, clearly the phases to a boss battle, SK enraged fights Vader and manages to cut Vader's hand off, ok, then the blonde bimbo Vader threw out of a window about 70 stories up magically comes back to life through the power of love or some shit, and the story ends.

Cliche, Over exaggerated, meaningless love story, It's like if Attack of the clones was a game, but instead of the few redeeming things (Dooku, Tusken scene, Jango, the soundtrack) you have a bunch of force lightning and autistic screaching from your main protagonist. 

So yes, Galen is an unexplained powerhouse who has a very cliche story, and we all would have been better off if he was replaced with Shira brie who needs way more love than this overachieving hall moniter.
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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July 9th 2019, 10:14 pm
Bruh...

I really feel the need to respond to this.
DoA
DoA

Is Starkiller a mary sue? Empty Re: Is Starkiller a mary sue?

July 9th 2019, 11:32 pm
Not as much as Bane is
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

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July 9th 2019, 11:37 pm
@DoA wrote:Not as much as Bane is

Not sure if It's a joke, but Bane is about the farthest thing from an overpowered character  Is Starkiller a mary sue? 3146861145
DoA
DoA

Is Starkiller a mary sue? Empty Re: Is Starkiller a mary sue?

July 10th 2019, 12:14 am
I mean.. at least Marek being uber powerful makes sense. He had one of the highest potentials in the mythos, and was trained harshly by Vader since childhood.

Baney Stu with just a few months of training was making lightning storms, busting temples, and ragdolling Sith Lords Is Starkiller a mary sue? 1220391476
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

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July 10th 2019, 1:59 am
@DoA wrote:I mean.. at least Marek being uber powerful makes sense. He had one of the highest potentials in the mythos, and was trained harshly by Vader since childhood.

Baney Stu with just a few months of training was making lightning storms, busting temples, and ragdolling Sith Lords Is Starkiller a mary sue? 1220391476

He's the fucking sithari dude. He's the Anakin of the sith, makes perfect sense.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

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July 10th 2019, 5:57 am
No. Galen's power is justified via his potential as well as the extensive and brutal training he went through at the hands of Darth Vader, PROXY as well as the missions he went through before and during the events of TFU.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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July 10th 2019, 6:01 am
But is his potential justified?
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
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July 10th 2019, 9:22 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:No. Galen's power is justified via his potential as well as the extensive and brutal training he went through at the hands of Darth Vader, PROXY as well as the missions he went through before and during the events of TFU.

That ignores half my point sel lol. HIS FIRST FUCKING SCENE he pulls Vader's lightsaber out of his hand, he's a game mechanic walking.
The Witness
The Witness

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July 10th 2019, 9:38 am
@Azronger Good answer
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

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July 10th 2019, 10:53 am
Azronger wrote:But is his potential justified?

Given that the qualifications for high potential are reasonably generous, I'd say that point isn't really able to justify a Gary Stu label (if you were attempting to apply one)
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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July 10th 2019, 2:12 pm
@Trayus Marauder wrote:
Azronger wrote:But is his potential justified?

Given that the qualifications for high potential are reasonably generous, I'd say that point isn't really able to justify a Gary Stu label (if you were attempting to apply one)

Who else has potential as high as Galen that isn't a Skywalker?
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

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July 10th 2019, 3:21 pm
Flunky Cyborg wrote:Az is being way too generous. Dude goes from having a good fight with Kota and Paratus and a shadow guard to tearing a star destroyer out of the sky in the span of one year. He doesn't have any explanation for his backround either, his parents are nobodies of the Jedi order, his mom dies off screen and his dad is sub dark lord the rise of darth Vader, darth vader. He grows up fighting a droid and apparently never lost once. Now if you read the lore, he gets the droid at i believe 6 years old or something like that, and there is no way in hell a little toddler could survive Proxy. Then he grows up, now keep in mind this kid is exhausted, every day Vader works him like a military soldier and he is ambushed by Proxy and he still doesn't lose. 

Flash forward to tfu 2 where we are thrown right in with the clone. He appears to have no real history other than being Vader's servant, for some ungodly and unrealistic reason he has the memories of his predecessor. While it might have been interesting to find out that the clone was the original, the other clones have the same memory as well so It's just silly. Sk escapes and runs to Juno in this twisted love obsession of guy grown in a vat on girl whose still mourning her lost boytoy. So he follows her, naturally murdering hundreds of innocent imperial troopers along the way, showing no remorse for being a cold blooded pyscho. He fights Vader in one of the dumbest fights ever, clearly the phases to a boss battle, SK enraged fights Vader and manages to cut Vader's hand off, ok, then the blonde bimbo Vader threw out of a window about 70 stories up magically comes back to life through the power of love or some shit, and the story ends.

Cliche, Over exaggerated, meaningless love story, It's like if Attack of the clones was a game, but instead of the few redeeming things (Dooku, Tusken scene, Jango, the soundtrack) you have a bunch of force lightning and autistic screaching from your main protagonist. 

So yes, Galen is an unexplained powerhouse who has a very cliche story, and we all would have been better off if he was replaced with Shira brie who needs way more love than this overachieving hall moniter.
Galen didn't rip the SD out of the sky. It was already falling and he just redirected it.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
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July 10th 2019, 3:33 pm
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Flunky Cyborg wrote:Az is being way too generous. Dude goes from having a good fight with Kota and Paratus and a shadow guard to tearing a star destroyer out of the sky in the span of one year. He doesn't have any explanation for his backround either, his parents are nobodies of the Jedi order, his mom dies off screen and his dad is sub dark lord the rise of darth Vader, darth vader. He grows up fighting a droid and apparently never lost once. Now if you read the lore, he gets the droid at i believe 6 years old or something like that, and there is no way in hell a little toddler could survive Proxy. Then he grows up, now keep in mind this kid is exhausted, every day Vader works him like a military soldier and he is ambushed by Proxy and he still doesn't lose. 

Flash forward to tfu 2 where we are thrown right in with the clone. He appears to have no real history other than being Vader's servant, for some ungodly and unrealistic reason he has the memories of his predecessor. While it might have been interesting to find out that the clone was the original, the other clones have the same memory as well so It's just silly. Sk escapes and runs to Juno in this twisted love obsession of guy grown in a vat on girl whose still mourning her lost boytoy. So he follows her, naturally murdering hundreds of innocent imperial troopers along the way, showing no remorse for being a cold blooded pyscho. He fights Vader in one of the dumbest fights ever, clearly the phases to a boss battle, SK enraged fights Vader and manages to cut Vader's hand off, ok, then the blonde bimbo Vader threw out of a window about 70 stories up magically comes back to life through the power of love or some shit, and the story ends.

Cliche, Over exaggerated, meaningless love story, It's like if Attack of the clones was a game, but instead of the few redeeming things (Dooku, Tusken scene, Jango, the soundtrack) you have a bunch of force lightning and autistic screaching from your main protagonist. 

So yes, Galen is an unexplained powerhouse who has a very cliche story, and we all would have been better off if he was replaced with Shira brie who needs way more love than this overachieving hall moniter.
Galen didn't rip the SD out of the sky. It was already falling and he just redirected it.

He kinda did just rip it out in the Wii version.
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

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July 10th 2019, 3:39 pm
Azronger wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
Flunky Cyborg wrote:Az is being way too generous. Dude goes from having a good fight with Kota and Paratus and a shadow guard to tearing a star destroyer out of the sky in the span of one year. He doesn't have any explanation for his backround either, his parents are nobodies of the Jedi order, his mom dies off screen and his dad is sub dark lord the rise of darth Vader, darth vader. He grows up fighting a droid and apparently never lost once. Now if you read the lore, he gets the droid at i believe 6 years old or something like that, and there is no way in hell a little toddler could survive Proxy. Then he grows up, now keep in mind this kid is exhausted, every day Vader works him like a military soldier and he is ambushed by Proxy and he still doesn't lose. 

Flash forward to tfu 2 where we are thrown right in with the clone. He appears to have no real history other than being Vader's servant, for some ungodly and unrealistic reason he has the memories of his predecessor. While it might have been interesting to find out that the clone was the original, the other clones have the same memory as well so It's just silly. Sk escapes and runs to Juno in this twisted love obsession of guy grown in a vat on girl whose still mourning her lost boytoy. So he follows her, naturally murdering hundreds of innocent imperial troopers along the way, showing no remorse for being a cold blooded pyscho. He fights Vader in one of the dumbest fights ever, clearly the phases to a boss battle, SK enraged fights Vader and manages to cut Vader's hand off, ok, then the blonde bimbo Vader threw out of a window about 70 stories up magically comes back to life through the power of love or some shit, and the story ends.

Cliche, Over exaggerated, meaningless love story, It's like if Attack of the clones was a game, but instead of the few redeeming things (Dooku, Tusken scene, Jango, the soundtrack) you have a bunch of force lightning and autistic screaching from your main protagonist. 

So yes, Galen is an unexplained powerhouse who has a very cliche story, and we all would have been better off if he was replaced with Shira brie who needs way more love than this overachieving hall moniter.
Galen didn't rip the SD out of the sky. It was already falling and he just redirected it.

He kinda did just rip it out in the Wii version.
I haven't played the WII version but in the novel it explicitly notes that it was already falling
Jake
Jake
Level One
Level One

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July 10th 2019, 3:59 pm
Glad we take the events of a Wii game over the novel here.
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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July 10th 2019, 4:27 pm
Didn't he do it in the XBOX version as well?
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
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July 10th 2019, 6:23 pm
Yes
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

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July 11th 2019, 4:34 am
For the issue of high potential, could a source be provided to indicate that high potential is exclusive to the offspring of powerful force users?

As for the use of the Wii/Xbox versions of TFU, not really relevant given that the novel version takes priority:

Source: First Look: The Force Unleashed Novel, starwars.com (2007)

In 2008, the next chapter of the Star Wars saga will be told in LucasArts' brand-new, next generation video game, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. The game casts players as Darth Vader's "Secret Apprentice" and the storyline promises to unveil new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy. The official The Force Unleashed novel by author Sean Williams (based on the story by Haden Blackman) will cover the events of the game, providing the one true "canon" path of events that affect the Star Wars saga.
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