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Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:23 am
I’m confused. You have Kun above Valkorion or not?
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:35 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Vaelias wrote:
Kun is solidly above Valk

Valk failed to possess Lana Beniko and had to hollow the original Valkorian out before possessing him, Kun possessed Kyp Durron and Luke with ease
1. That was Vitiate not Valk.
2. Vitiate was literally possessing many other ppl simultaneously then.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:36 am
Sith Archivist wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
Kun is solidly above Valk

Valk failed to possess Lana Beniko and had to hollow the original Valkorian out before possessing him, Kun possessed Kyp Durron and Luke with ease
1. That was Vitiate not Valk.
2. Vitiate was literally possessing many other ppl simultaneously then.

What about when he failed to possess unconscious bodies or Vaylin
Vaelias
Vaelias

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:36 am
@Seturna wrote:I’m confused. You have Kun above Valkorion or not?

I have Valk and Vitiate both sub TPM Sidious and Kun = ROTJ Sidious
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:37 am
@Vaelias
What unconscious bodies?
Also Vaylin is a lot more powerful than JA Kyp
Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:06 am
Shouldn’t Kun logically be bound below TPM Sidious then too?
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:44 am
@Vaelias wrote:Kun is solidly above Valk

I think you are not being serious.

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

The Sith Emperor as of the SWTOR is a VOICE among other things having Galactic reach through numerous subjects bind to his essence.

@Vaelias wrote:Valk failed to possess Lana Beniko and had to hollow the original Valkorian out before possessing him, Kun possessed Kyp Durron and Luke with ease

Already explained to you: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t822p100-exar-kun-respect-thread-oct-2020

You do not understand the difference between Mind Tricks/Mind Control and outright replacing an individual's essence which happened to original Valkorion.

Exar Kun could possess Jedi Padawan Kyp Durron but not every Jedi in Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy on Yavin 4. Kun did not possess Luke with ease either - he defeated Luke in a fight and then exerted his control over comatose Luke.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:46 am
Spirit Kun is solidly above Valk, that is true. At least he isn't bound beneath Darth Plagueis ☺
Shimrra
Shimrra

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:10 am
Spirit Kun is the only respectable version of Kun
Vaelias
Vaelias

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:17 am
Sith Archivist wrote:@Vaelias
What unconscious bodies?
Also Vaylin is a lot more powerful than JA Kyp

Failing to possess unconscious bodies

“Soon as I crash-landed, the Emperor’s puppets started coming for my shuttle, just like that. Maybe figured on some easy kills inside. Did the only thing I could think of. Rigged the ship to overload, fry everything in and around it. Tried to shield myself but still scrambled half my implants.”
“And that stopped the attack.”
“They went down, yeah. Some of the got back up, but they seemed out of it. Not possesses - dazed.”
The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

“So now we know: shock them unconscious and the tie is severed - at least for a while.”
The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

And The original Valkorian was a non force sensitive I’m pretty sure he’s weaker than Kyp Durron yet Vitiate had to hollow him out before possessing him

And I doubt the version of Vaylin that he couldn’t possess and who over powered him is JA Kyp level seeing has an even more powerful iteration of this Vaylin can’t overpower a non force user
Vaelias
Vaelias

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:19 am
@Shimrra wrote:Spirit Kun is the only respectable version of Kun

Even though living Kun is far more powerful, ok sure !
Vaelias
Vaelias

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:20 am
@Seturna wrote:Shouldn’t Kun logically be bound below TPM Sidious then too?

Technically yes but he was clearly intended to be ROTJ Sidious level by both the JA and TOTJ writers given both scaling quotes and constant comparisons
Vaelias
Vaelias

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:39 am
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:Kun is solidly above Valk

I think you are not being serious.

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

The Sith Emperor as of the SWTOR is a VOICE among other things having Galactic reach through numerous subjects bind to his essence.

@Vaelias wrote:Valk failed to possess Lana Beniko and had to hollow the original Valkorian out before possessing him, Kun possessed Kyp Durron and Luke with ease

Already explained to you: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t822p100-exar-kun-respect-thread-oct-2020

You do not understand the difference between Mind Tricks/Mind Control and outright replacing an individual's essence which happened to original Valkorion.

Exar Kun could possess Jedi Padawan Kyp Durron but not every Jedi in Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy on Yavin 4. Kun did not possess Luke with ease either - he defeated Luke in a fight and then exerted his control over comatose Luke.

“The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.”

Yes and given the showings it’s clear that his power is very faulty and inconsistent given that all this power comes from rituals and seemingly unreliable external sources. Yes the rituals did enhance his power indefinitely but the ritual power being inconsistent is the only way to describe his inconsistent feats, as I mentioned above he failed to possess unconscious bodies.

Also being the most ‘Dominating’ force user doesn’t necessarily mean he’s the most powerful, this could simply be referring to his position as emperor  

“Transfer Life
This power allows character to transfer his or her life energy into another body. The key to immortality itself, this is one of the most difficult and evil of all dark side powers. To overcome a spirit already residing in a body is nearly impossible. This is why the power is nearly useless without the ability to clone host bodies. - From (Star Wars D6 Force powers)”

Yeh I understand that but it’s the fact that Vitiate has to do this to a NON FORCE SENSITIVE where as Kun does it with ease to Kyp which was stated as impossible, not only that but this was a vastly weaker version of Kun to his living incarnation, an yes I know those two abilities are different things however possessing Kyp with ease and then controlling Luke is far more impressive than having to hollow out a non force sensitive, it was never Kuns intention to replace Kyps essence but given how it was so easy to possess him it’s very likely that he could have had he wanted to and he definitely could have done it to the original Valkorian who can’t even use the force.

Also the non force user literally resisted him

“My spirit invaded your body in search of a new host. You resisted.”
The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne

“I would hollow out your mind, take possession of your body, and ascend to the Eternal Throne. But first, I required new weapons to conquer your psyche.”
The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne


Last edited by Vaelias on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:40 am
@Vaelias wrote:

And The original Valkorian was a non force sensitive I’m pretty sure he’s weaker than Kyp Durron yet Vitiate had to hollow him out before possessing him


Was that confirmed? Cause I don’t recall it, I recall the Emperor saying he was a powerful warrior which would suggest he had to be a Force User because I doubt Vitiate would call him such otherwise.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:47 am
@Zenwolf wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:

And The original Valkorian was a non force sensitive I’m pretty sure he’s weaker than Kyp Durron yet Vitiate had to hollow him out before possessing him


Was that confirmed? Cause I don’t recall it, I recall the Emperor saying he was a powerful warrior which would suggest he had to be a Force User because I doubt Vitiate would call him such otherwise.

I c what you mean but he’s never been stated as force sensitive, only that he’s a warrior which could mean anything, until it’s confirmed that he is force sensitive it’s safe to assume he’s not or he would’ve been credited with it
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:30 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
Failing to possess unconscious bodies

“Soon as I crash-landed, the Emperor’s puppets started coming for my shuttle, just like that. Maybe figured on some easy kills inside. Did the only thing I could think of. Rigged the ship to overload, fry everything in and around it. Tried to shield myself but still scrambled half my implants.”
“And that stopped the attack.”
“They went down, yeah. Some of the got back up, but they seemed out of it. Not possesses - dazed.”
The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

“So now we know: shock them unconscious and the tie is severed - at least for a while.”
The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

You are "nitpicking."

Nitpicking = "fussy or pedantic fault-finding."

The protagonists discovered that electrostatic weapons (purposefully engineered to affect minds and suppress 'resistance movements' on Ziost; powerful bursts could literally KILL living beings) could be used to render living beings unconscious, setting them free from Telepathic Mind Control of Vitiate in the process. These weapons also made it possible for the subjects/victims to escape from Ziost (if they could board a starship in a short span of time). However, majority of these subjects/victims could not be evacuated from Ziost (or failed to escape) because they fell under Vitiate's spell [again] not long after regaining conscious. This reality comes to light in a cut scene and character dialogues.

"Saresh finally saw reason before things got too bad, got a bunch of our troops out of there--still, we lost so many, never mind the rest of Ziost...." - Theron Shan

Friendly advice: Nitpicking is a NEGATIVE in debates. Please learn to produce valid arguments instead.

@Vaelias wrote:
And The original Valkorian was a non force sensitive I’m pretty sure he’s weaker than Kyp Durron yet Vitiate had to hollow him out before possessing him

And I doubt the version of Vaylin that he couldn’t possess and who over powered him is JA Kyp level seeing has an even more powerful iteration of this Vaylin can’t overpower a non force user

Not much is revealed about the original Valkorion in the lore and you are already jumping to conclusions about him (premature). Vitiate was not interested in subjecting the original Valkorion to Telepathic Mind Control, but in taking over his form in full capacity (completely different ballgame/feat).

In case you do not know - a normal living being could not host Vitiate's essence for long - the host would crumble under the pressure. This reality is slowly established across the Knights of the Fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne expansion sets because Vitiate had to 'enhance' Force-sensitivity of The Outlander (originally very powerful Force-user) in order to take over his form in full capacity (Midichlorian Manipulation implied?). Vitiate also wanted to use The Outlander to kill both Arcann and Vaylin before he would attempt take over of The Outlander in full capacity - a plan/mechanism to give the impression to his followers that The Outlander was leading a revolt against the oppression of Arcann and Vaylin to their benefit and would be a worthy successor.

The original Valkorion was not an ordinary living being because Vitiate had a high opinion of his capabilities (what he used to be) prior to take over by him.

REPEAT: "You do not understand the difference between Mind Tricks/Mind Control and outright replacing an individual's essence which happened to original Valkorion."

Mind Tricks / Mind Control = Telepathic abilities / Jedi Mind Tricks
Outright replacing an individual's essence = Transfer Life / Transfer Essence

Resistance to Jedi Mind Tricks is contingent upon 'mental strength' in large part; being a Force-sensitive does not make much difference in this matter. It took 3 powerful Jedi Masters (Anakin Skywalker; Mace Windu; Obi-Wan Kenobi) to somewhat break Cad Bane for instance:



Common in-universe perception is that Jedi Mind Tricks work on weak minds mostly.

Vitiate is/was as good as one could be in application of Jedi Mind Tricks in the lore - pushing envelope in this domain to virtually unrealized heights. Vitiate was proficient in Jedi Mind Tricks to the extent that he could break/corrupt/possess living beings irrespective of species including hardened Force-users/powerful Jedi Masters. He is stated to have literally destroyed minds of some of the Jedi who were dispatched to assassinate him. He is even stated to have the capacity to break/corrupt even the strongest of Jedi.

@Vaelias wrote:
Yes and given the showings it’s clear that his power is very faulty and inconsistent given that all this power comes from rituals and seemingly unreliable external sources. Yes the rituals did enhance his power indefinitely but the ritual power being inconsistent is the only way to describe his inconsistent feats, as I mentioned above he failed to possess unconscious bodies.

There is so much wrong in this one statement that I am not sure from where to begin in order to address it. Vitiate was very strong since the beginning in case you didn't knew:

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Ever hear a 13 year old boy do that?

Vitiate curb-stomped a very powerful Sith Lord Dramath in a confrontation at the age of 10 without formal training (advanced Force powers such as Sever Force and Telepathy came to him naturally). Lord Dramath was no ordinary Sith - he was a planetary governor in the time of Mark Ragnos (not possible without Ragnos' approval), and had sufficient command of the Force to produce a very powerful Sith Holocron to house his teachings/secrets (Darth Bane failed several times to produce one). Dramath's other son is also stated to be a powerful Sith but he fled Medriaas to a virtually unknown planet due in fear of Vitiate. Ragnos realized 'how powerful Vitiate was' in a meeting and approved his governorship of Medriaas without question. Nobody dared to challenge Vitiate for governorship of Medriaas in this meeting (and after).  

Sith rituals are not a sign of weakness but a pathway to accomplishments that might look improbable otherwise. Every notable Sith including Palpatine performed Sith rituals to shape the course of events to their advantage when necessary. Even scientific-minded Darth Plagueis had a high opinion of Sith Sorcery. At one point, Palpatine and Darth Plagueis bind themselves for months to create further imbalance in the Living Force because they benefited from this dynamic and the Jedi would be at a disadvantage in comparison to them.

Even Jedi meditated to do commune with the Force on a deeper level and/or to pull off feats which might be improbable otherwise (e.g. Luke Skywalker manipulating a Vong-created singularity).

You need to revisit your perceptions/understanding of the lore instead.

@Vaelias wrote:
Also being the most ‘Dominating’ force user doesn’t necessarily mean he’s the most powerful, this could simply be referring to his position as emperor

Excuse me? The whole statement is just another way of asserting that he had become the most powerful Force-user as of SWTOR - not just a Sith. This view is reinforced by another statement:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

BioWare is advancing the BIGGER PICTURE in these statements. The Sith Emperor was a mere VOICE / MASK as of the SWTOR - Vitiate is a dark entity that manifested in thousands of living beings when counting CHILDREN among other members of his power base as of the SWTOR - undisputed ruler of two powerful Galactic civilizations at the same time courtesy of his VOICES. Vitiate could challenge the entire Jedi Order all by himself as of the SWTOR in theory.

@Vaelias wrote:
“Transfer Life
This power allows character to transfer his or her life energy into another body. The key to immortality itself, this is one of the most difficult and evil of all dark side powers. To overcome a spirit already residing in a body is nearly impossible. This is why the power is nearly useless without the ability to clone host bodies. - From (Star Wars D6 Force powers)”

Yeh I understand that but it’s the fact that Vitiate has to do this to a NON FORCE SENSITIVE where as Kun does it with ease to Kyp which was stated as impossible, not only that but this was a vastly weaker version of Kun to his living incarnation, an yes I know those two abilities are different things however possessing Kyp with ease and then controlling Luke is far more impressive than having to hollow out a non force sensitive, it was never Kuns intention to replace Kyps essence but given how it was so easy to possess him it’s very likely that he could have had he wanted to and he definitely could have done it to the original Valkorian who can’t even use the force.

Also the non force user literally resisted him

“My spirit invaded your body in search of a new host. You resisted.”
The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne

“I would hollow out your mind, take possession of your body, and ascend to the Eternal Throne. But first, I required new weapons to conquer your psyche.”
The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne

See above.

Do you know that subjecting an unwilling live host to Transfer Life is among the most difficult (and EVIL) feats to be attempted by a Force-user and risk of oblivion is very high in the effort?

CONTROL difficulty = HEROIC
SENSE difficulty = HEROIC
ALTER difficulty = HEROIC (vs. an unwilling live host)

The above is on par with the feat of conjuring and controlling a Force Storm (Wormhole) in terms of difficulty factor among all documented feats (D6 rules and follow-ups).

Transfer Life on an unwilling live host is virtually UNHEARD OF in the Star Wars lore, and historians/authors ruled out the possibility on average*. Not even Palpatine and Abeloth demonstrated anything of the sort respectively; clones and dead bodies are easy to take over because these bodies do not have a SOUL to override in the process.

*For example:

"Though theoretically possible, it is not yet known what the effect on an unborn fetus would be. Fortunately, there is almost no history of this power being used successfully. It is believed that if the user’s body perishes as an attempt fails, the user’s life energy is lost, dispersed to the void." - Star Wars: Force Powers

It is important to understand the difference: Telepathic Mind Control (Possession) vs. Transfer Life (Take Over).


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:33 pm; edited 5 times in total
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:33 pm
Even DE Sidious isn't beating Valk, so RotJ Sidious just gets wrecked.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:24 am
@Latham2000 wrote:Even DE Sidious isn't beating Valk, so RotJ Sidious just gets wrecked.

De Sidious' force storm destroyed an entire fleet and covered much of the surface of a moon in mere moments and later threatened to expand enough to consume the whole galaxy. He's far above Valk.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:59 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:
@Latham2000 wrote:Even DE Sidious isn't beating Valk, so RotJ Sidious just gets wrecked.

De Sidious' force storm destroyed an entire fleet and covered much of the surface of a moon in mere moments and later threatened to expand enough to consume the whole galaxy. He's far above Valk.

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Force-Storm-Wormhole

Force Storm (Wormhole) is a deadly phenomenon in itself which can be spawned by Cosmic forces, through use of appropriate artifacts, and Force-users also found a way to create one (Palpatine being the most notable and documented practitioner). Palpatine created and directed one towards Da Soocha V ("...Look below-- look what is happening to your pitiful moon!") but I do not recall anything significant happening to this moon which was in fact destroyed by the Galaxy Gun a while later.

Valkorion have some showings of different character which necessitate a level of proficiency in dark arts that would be sufficient to conjure a Force Storm (Wormhole) as well - D6 Rules made these themes quantifiable thankfully. Given the fact that Valkorion is stated to have 'explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side' and collected numerous artifacts in the process including the legendary Darkstaff, he/it would be packing numerous surprises.

Valkorion consumed a massive rocky planet (i.e. Ziost) in under a minute - something that is "a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." Force Drain is considered to be extremely difficult to employ offensively as Darth Bane found out when he adopted this course to defeat multiple cultists and had to draw from a nearby nexus to sustain a 30 foot across Death Field for the needful. Imagine the raw power needed to engulf a massive rocky planet with a Death Field in under a minute... equivalent to the raw power output of thousands of Force-users working together in pursuit of same objective?

Rocky planets are typically thousands of KM across (diameter), and each can house thousands of capital starships on the surface.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:31 pm
@S_W_LeGenD

Moon:

Luke: He's created another energy storm.
Leia: It’s descending on Pinnacle Base, consuming all the ships in its path. (Sound of comlink activating.) Mon Mothma, can you hear me?

Mon Mothma: Princess Leia. There’s an energy storm. It’s suddenly taken over the planet! We have twelve ships lost already. All our hands are being lost. We’re being wiped out!

Han: Leia, Leia! (Sound of comlink deactivating.)

Leia: You’re going to slaughter all those people.

Palpatine: Yes. Did I not warn you? I’ve played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough. Now, you will experience my full potency. I live as energy. I am the dark side!
--Dark Empire audio drama

Valkorion consumed a massive rocky planet (i.e. Ziost) in under a minute - something that is "a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." Force Drain is considered to be extremely difficult to employ offensively as Darth Bane found out when he adopted this course to defeat multiple cultists and had to draw from a nearby nexus to sustain a 30 foot across Death Field for the needful. Imagine the raw power needed to engulf a massive rocky planet with a Death Field in under a minute... equivalent to the raw power output of thousands of Force-users working together in pursuit of same objective?

With prep. and aid of a nexus

This is not a comparable feat... Nihilus' drain feat is even more impressive. Valk, Nihilus, and Sheev may have all drained a planet but none of them actually have the power of thousands of Banes put together in a combat scenario.

I could list a dose of other feats that put DE Sheev above Valk but I am not going to go there.
The Merchant
The Merchant

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:40 pm
I'd still give it to ROTJ Palpatine. At this time he can, and has surpassed, the level of power to mind wipe Millions of Sentients, employ Battle meditation to the entire Empires armed forces which spans tens of trillions, tank Mareks Oneness explosion which made an explosion several kiloneters wide and deep visible on the surface of the Death star, which is tough enough to withstand an Executor star destroyer ramming and exploding on its surface + the Oneness explosion is beyond anything Marek has done earlier whoch included overloading machinery to pierce thru Star destroyers and take out a space station in TFU comic, can lift an Executor class star destroyer which have 100x the mass of an ISD, and can shatter the foundations of Imperial palace, the length reaching the bedrock of the crust of Coruscant and strong enough to withstand the pressure of being kilometers underground. He also can employ Force storms at this time as well, as early as 19 BBY even albeit not as strong as his DE incarnation.


I can see why one would support Valkorion since he should scale well above the Ziost feat, his other feats though don't compare to Palps. The Ziost feat still is immensely impressive, not suggesting it isn't.


S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ)

on Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:26 am
@SnowxElf wrote:@S_W_LeGenD

Moon:

Luke: He's created another energy storm.
Leia: It’s descending on Pinnacle Base, consuming all the ships in its path. (Sound of comlink activating.) Mon Mothma, can you hear me?

Mon Mothma: Princess Leia. There’s an energy storm. It’s suddenly taken over the planet! We have twelve ships lost already. All our hands are being lost. We’re being wiped out!

Han: Leia, Leia! (Sound of comlink deactivating.)

Leia: You’re going to slaughter all those people.

Palpatine: Yes. Did I not warn you? I’ve played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough. Now, you will experience my full potency. I live as energy. I am the dark side!
--Dark Empire audio drama

Thanks for the share.

As I pointed out earlier, I do not recall anything substantial happening to Da Soocha V from that kind of exposure while it lasted. Same Force Storm (Wormhole) absolutely obliterated starships in its path but not this moon because there is much greater mass and durability to deal with in its case. Galaxy Gun was used to destroy Da Soocha V at a later stage.

My point is not to blow a feat out of proportion for the sake of an argument (which you did in your first post) because this leads to nowhere but hypotheticals and then nothing comes out of it. Just so you know Palpatine as of the Dark Empire and Force Storm (Wormhole) are in the list of my favorite themes but context...

@SnowxElf wrote:
With prep. and aid of a nexus

I am not sure how you reached that conclusion because virtually nothing in the Rise of the Emperor expansion set suggest that to be the case. The story on the fundamental level is about Valkorion invading Ziost with the intent to replenish/recover by means of orchestrating a major conflict on this planet and feeding on resultant deaths for as long as necessary (Drain Life Essence in use). The protagonists attempt to stop Valkorion on Ziost, to no avail.

"The galaxy is choked with beings. Billions die every instant. It is better to make use of this resource. At my retreat on Byss, the life force of its colonists supplied an energy pool to sustain my dark side experiments." -  Palpatine, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side is very informative sourcebook and can help understand a lot of developments in the lore.

WHEN Valkorion had recovered (satiated), he/it warned the chief protagonist to get out and then proceeded to consume Ziost - this was a clear demonstration of his raw power to the Jedi and Sith alike and also to FUEL his ultimate ritual (i.e. consuming the galaxy) but he changed his mind when he noticed The Eternal Empire flourishing (independently confirmed by Hall Hood). The act of 'consuming Ziost' was his own, and not propelled by any form of preparation and aid of a nexus. Valkorion's capacity to use the Force is strongly implied to be beyond that of the Jedi and Sith in the Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set.

@SnowxElf wrote:
This is not a comparable feat... Nihilus' drain feat is even more impressive.

Err...

1. Ziost is much bigger than Katarr and have moons orbiting it.
2. Valkorion's Death Field reduced Ziost to a barren ball of lifeless rock with anomalies, and this planet could not recover even in the times of Palpatine.

Ziost was a beautiful world much like Earth with vast oceans and population centers - Valkorion's Death Field consumed biota and oceans to the extent of atomization and reduced population centers to ruins by fueling powerful tremors. There were ZERO survivors.

Darth Nihilus's clouds of death did not consume biota and oceans to the extent of atomization (less corossive) but reduced population centers to ruins nevertheless.

Check the 'Consuming techniques (Drain Force)' section in the following blog: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/devastation-of-ziost-updated-and-expanded-in-2020-/105050/

Valkorion's act of 'consuming Ziost' is correctly stated to be "a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." It certainly is.

@SnowxElf wrote:
Valk, Nihilus, and Sheev may have all drained a planet but none of them actually have the power of thousands of Banes put together in a combat scenario.

There is a limit to 'power projection' through a physical body because of "biological frailty."

Darth Nihilus' proficiency in Force Drain was a byproduct of his condition which in turn was a byproduct of incident on Malachor V - this was an unusual development and occurrence. Force Drain is extremely difficult to employ offensively otherwise, let alone on a planetary scale. Darth Nihilus benefited much from the tutelage of Darth Traya nevertheless but his physiology began to suffer and crumble due to heavy application(s) of Force Drain in his exploits. Darth Traya hinted that it was only a matter of time that Darth Nihilus would self-destruct or something on these lines. This could be the case until Darth Nihilus unlocked immortality but Meetra Surik stopped him.

Palpatine demonstrated Drain Life Essence on Byss (planetary scale) - very impressive feat in itself, but this is not combat-applicable technique in fact. The combat-applicable techniques are typically identified as Drain Force and Death Field respectively but very difficult to employ offensively nevertheless.

Palpatine could kill many with a Force Storm (Wormhole) on the other hand; he knew Force Maelstrom and could expand it into one. Palpatine as of the Dark Empire could unleash his true powers through a biological host and not otherwise - this was his core limitation.

Valkorion as of the SWTOR could unleash his/its true powers in raw format (formless) but was constrained by a biological host. Valkorion had no choice but to 'permanently enhance' Force-sensitivity of The Outlander from within to make him suitable for housing his/its essence for long-term; the biological host would have crumbed otherwise. This is not to say that Valkorion could not kill many through a biological host - he/it certainly could.

Anakin Skywalker would be an excellent choice for potential takeover but he was of a much later age. Karnass Murr had the opportunity but wasn't capable like Valkorion (amulet factor).

@SnowxElf wrote:I could list a dose of other feats that put DE Sheev above Valk but I am not going to go there.

You sound like Anakin Skywalker on Mustafar... Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 4037459623

But yes, let us keep this discussion focused.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

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on Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:50 am
Nice text wall, as usual your post is large but doesn't say much.  

As I pointed out earlier, I do not recall anything substantial happening to Da Soocha V from that kind of exposure while it lasted. Same Force Storm (Wormhole) absolutely obliterated starships in its path but not this moon because there is much greater mass and durability to deal with in its case. Galaxy Gun was used to destroy Da Soocha V at a later stage.

Yes, but the damage done to the actual moon wasn't the point. The entire point was that he was able to render a massive storm in such a short amount of time. He only concentrated the storm to destroy the fleet and destroy pinnacle base, however, he clearly could of done a massive amount of more damage if he lowered more of the storm to the surface of the moon if he wanted to.

WHEN Valkorion had recovered (satiated), he/it warned the chief protagonist to get out and then proceeded to consume Ziost - this was a clear demonstration of his raw power to the Jedi and Sith alike and also to FUEL his ultimate ritual (i.e. consuming the galaxy) but he changed his mind when he noticed The Eternal Empire flourishing (independently confirmed by Hall Hood). The act of 'consuming Ziost' was his own, and not propelled by any form of preparation and aid of a nexus. Valkorion's capacity to use the Force is strongly implied to be beyond that of the Jedi and Sith in the Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set.

1. Ziost is much bigger than Katarr and have moons orbiting it.
2. Valkorion's Death Field reduced Ziost to a barren ball of lifeless rock with anomalies, and this planet could not recover even in the times of Palpatine.Ziost was a beautiful world much like Earth with vast oceans and population centers - Valkorion's Death Field consumed biota and oceans to the extent of atomization and reduced population centers to ruins by fueling powerful tremors. There were ZERO survivors. Darth Nihilus's clouds of death did not consume biota and oceans to the extent of atomization (less corossive) but reduced population centers to ruins nevertheless.

Nice, but you're forgetting something. Ziost was a dark side nexus. Every single planet drain feat in the mythos has been done with prep, bar Nihilus. In order for Sheev to drain the life of Byss he had to make the planet a darkside nexus first in order to do so. Ziost already was one. Valk and Sheev cannot just go to a random planet and drain it whenever they want to, without time, that's not how it works, otherwise they would of done so. 

Palpatine demonstrated Drain Life Essence on Byss (planetary scale) - very impressive feat in itself, but this is not combat-applicable technique in fact. The combat-applicable techniques are typically identified as Drain Force and Death Field respectively but very difficult to employ offensively nevertheless.

and neither is Valk's Ziost feat.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

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on Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:45 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:Nice text wall, as usual your post is large but doesn't say much.  

As I pointed out earlier, I do not recall anything substantial happening to Da Soocha V from that kind of exposure while it lasted. Same Force Storm (Wormhole) absolutely obliterated starships in its path but not this moon because there is much greater mass and durability to deal with in its case. Galaxy Gun was used to destroy Da Soocha V at a later stage.

Yes, but the damage done to the actual moon wasn't the point. The entire point was that he was able to render a massive storm in such a short amount of time. He only concentrated the storm to destroy the fleet and destroy pinnacle base, however, he clearly could of done a massive amount of more damage if he lowered more of the storm to the surface of the moon if he wanted to.

"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds." - Luke Skywalker

That is the maximum I am granting you. Please do understand that the word 'kill' does not imply oblivion but death.

Force Storm (Wormhole) is not a black hole to be precise.

@SnowxElf wrote:
Nice, but you're forgetting something. Ziost was a dark side nexus.

Valkorion's powers would be more impactful on a world strong in the dark side at most? Shall I remind you that he/it is regarded as the most powerful Force-user ever in two sources? Emphasis mine. His powers would be more impactful than that of others in virtually any habitable environment.

@SnowxElf wrote:
Every single planet drain feat in the mythos has been done with prep, bar Nihilus. In order for Sheev to drain the life of Byss he had to make the planet a darkside nexus first in order to do so. Ziost already was one. Valk and Sheev cannot just go a random planet and drain it whenever they want without time, that's not how it works, otherwise they would of done so.

I am not sure what kind of 'preparation' went into creating a Death Field on a planetary scale on Ziost? This planet being strong in the dark side is virtually irrelevant factor and consideration:

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry: Death of a World.

Use of word but indicate following:

"used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned." - GOOGLE

"used to introduce an added statement, usually something that is different from what you have said before." - Cambridge English Dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/but)

The source of said power:

Valkorion vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ) - Page 2 6755495-9433071408-45637

There is not a single statement which suggest that Ziost made all the difference.

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." - Darth Traya

Tenebrae had his first brush with Drain Force on Medriaas courtesy of Zildrog in his youth. He spent years honing his mastery of the dark side and eventually "performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld" which in turn "extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force." The now virtually immortal Tenebrae spent centuries collecting numerous artifacts and studying them, honing his mastery of the dark side further and further and developing new powers in the process; "The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy." Tenebrae plowed his way into the TIER of most powerful Force-users ever as Valkorion, surpassing the Jedi and Sith alike: "The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings."

Valkorion's demonstration of consuming Ziost was/is the pinnacle of Drain Force in offensive capacity and potency.

Valkorion could do what Darth Nihilus could do and then some. Your argument is not much of an argument really but indicative of a mindset caught in disbelief.

@SnowxElf wrote:
and neither is Valk's Ziost feat.

You need to understand the difference between Drain Life Essence and Death Field first and foremost.

Drain Life Essence (passive)

"The galaxy is choked with beings. Billions die every instant. It is better to make use of this resource. At my retreat on Byss, the life force of its colonists supplied an energy pool to sustain my dark side experiments." - Palpatine, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

+

"A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan." - Darth Bane, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Death Field (offensive)

"An unstoppable concentration of dark side energy projected from your physical animus in the shape of a sphere. Any living being entering the field will wither into a dry husk. It is sustained by your will, but it will try to consume you as well." - Darth Bane, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

---

Death Field is a derivative of the Drain Force application, and Valkorion demonstrated a combination of these two concepts on Ziost while consuming it.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

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on Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:53 pm
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