ESB Luke Skywalker vs. ROS Kylo Ren

Force sabers all out

who wins

Pre-ESB Luke could shake star destroyers with the Force with the backlash of one of his attacks and effortlessly crack starship glass. He wins in the Force. 

Sabers could go either way but leaning Kylo.

All-out probably goes to Kylo.

RoS Kylo Ren might not have the same raw power as Luke, but he has more control and consistency. Sabers would be a bit closer, but I'm still leaning Kylo.

leaning kylo

@BoD:

Pre-ESB Luke could shake star destroyers with the Force with the backlash of one of his attacks and effortlessly crack starship glass. He wins in the Force.

Both are likely displays of his raw power, power he can't consistently bring to bear, as indicated by his inability to lift an X-Wing in the actual movie. Given Kylo can match Rey's TK (Which was bringing down bigger ships), I'm going to say he's fine TK wise. But if you want to argue Luke grew massively up to his fight with Vader then we can just look at them holistically. Kylo is far better trained, less emotionally unstable and comes from the same bloodline (Meaning his potential is going to be close enough that the training and emotional edges give him a comfortable advantage). The idea that Luke is his better is reaching to say the least.

Sabers could go either way but leaning Kylo.

It's not going to go either way. Kylo as of TFA alone has far greater accolades and training. Throw in his clear improvement up to TROS (There's likely a stomp gap or more between the two) and the result becomes abundantly clear.

All-out probably goes to Kylo.

At least we agree on this.

Kylo's winning comfortably-stomping each round. ROTJ Luke has this, but ESB? Not so much.

IG wrote:Kylo's winning comfortably-stomping each round. ROTJ Luke has this, but ESB? Not so much.

@IG How good is canon ROTJ Luke?

@SithSauce Below unhindered ROTJ Vader, but definitely good enough to at least challenge him. He's around = hindered ROTJ Vader.

BoD wrote:@SithSauce Below unhindered ROTJ Vader, but definitely good enough to at least challenge him. He's around = hindered ROTJ Vader.

The idea Vader was hindered during ROTJ has no basis in fact. It may appeal to those that wish to claim Vader is the greatest, but it means fuck-all in an actual debate. Sources like the ROTJ novel tell us Vader goes all-out. Sourcebooks tell us ESB Luke is a challenge for Vader. By ROTJ, Luke's undergone massive spiritual and skill growth, so it's not really hard to say that he's ~ ROTJ Vader. Personally, I think his power is <= and his mobility is what makes up the difference, but that's irrelevant.

SithSauce wrote:

IG wrote:Kylo's winning comfortably-stomping each round. ROTJ Luke has this, but ESB? Not so much.

@IG How good is canon ROTJ Luke?

I'd say ROTJ Luke is about <= Vader in power, which is around ~ or >= Yoda imo.

Ren wins in a decent fight. 
I feel like a good ~ for ROSRen is ROTJ luke. Perhaps slightly below ROTJ Vader, but close enough to take minority wins. In canon, that makes him a monster.