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Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:54 am
Yep, I'm opening up this can of worms officially on SI. Thoughts on this duel? Was Sidious toying? Could he have won at any moment? Etc Etc
O-Siri
O-Siri

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:57 am
He threw the fight as a last minute improvisation in the novelization but lost for real in the film.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:05 am
Yeah but in the novel, Windu uses shatterpoint to disarm him.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:08 am
Kilius wrote:He threw the fight as a last minute improvisation in the novelization

???
O-Siri
O-Siri

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:40 am
@Meatpants wrote:Yeah but in the novel, Windu uses shatterpoint to disarm him.

He used Shatterpoint to capitalize on Sidious's fear of falling off the ledge to disarm him:

"Out where the shadow’s fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow’s fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-
powered grip on the slippery permacrete."

Except as we learn a few passages later Sidious wasn't afraid at all:

“Fool!” His voice was a shout of thunder. “Do you think the fear
you feel is mine?”

"He felt Anakin’s leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his
approach behind—
And Palpatine was not afraid.
Mace could feel it: he wasn’t worried at all."

So why did Sidious "hesitate" if he wasn't afraid? The only logical conclusion I can come up with is that he sensed Anakin's presence and threw the fight to manipulate the events to his advantage.

Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:42 am
The shatterpoint was Anakin’s fear
O-Siri
O-Siri

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 am
@Meatpants wrote:The shatterpoint was Anakin’s fear

Yes but that still doesn't explain why Sidious "hesitated". Mace thought he was hesitating because he was afraid of falling only to learn later he wasn't afraid at all. Anakin being afraid doesn't explain Sidious's hesitation, which is why I think he threw the fight in the novel version of the fight as a last minute improvisation as it's the only logical reason I can come up with.


Last edited by Kilius on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:51 am
You're misinterpreting the quote. Sidious having fear and Windu thinking the fear he senses is Sidious' are two different things.
O-Siri
O-Siri

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:05 pm
@Meatpants wrote:You're misinterpreting the quote. Sidious having fear and Windu thinking the fear he senses is Sidious' are two different things.

So Sidious hesitated because Anakin was afraid? That doesn't make any sense.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:10 pm
No, they're two separate events. Sidious naturally uses fear because he's a Sith. But Windu thinks that the shatterpoint was Sidious' fear, when it was actually Anakin's. That doesn't mean Sidious wasn't still fearful.
O-Siri
O-Siri

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:21 pm
@Meatpants wrote:No, they're two separate events. Sidious naturally uses fear because he's a Sith. But Windu thinks that the shatterpoint was Sidious' fear, when it was actually Anakin's. That doesn't mean Sidious wasn't still fearful.

I think you are missing my point. My point lies in this passage right here:

"Out where the shadow’s fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow’s fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-
powered grip on the slippery permacrete."

Emphasis on the word "hesitate". Whether or not Mace misinterpreted the source of the fear doesn't change the fact that Sidious hesitated and turned his Force-powered speed into a grip to keep himself from slipping. Now the question remains as to WHY he did this. Why did he leave himself vulnerable. It wasn't because he was afraid as Mace initially thought so why would he hesitate at all? Did he "hesitate" because Anakin was afraid? That doesn't make sense. We don't get a solid answer but my best guess is that he threw the fight in this version of the fight.

Again the question isn't what the shatterpoint was, the question is in why Sidious hesitated which makes no sense if you assume the source of fear Mace sensed was from Anakin. Sidious has no logical motive to hesitate if he wasn't afraid.
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:39 pm
Kilius wrote:Again the question isn't what the shatterpoint was, the question is in why Sidious hesitated which makes no sense if you assume the source of fear Mace sensed was from Anakin. Sidious has no logical motive to hesitate if he wasn't afraid.

Mace also senses Sidious' shatterpoint later on, identifying it as his confidence in Anakin:

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith.

The shatterpoint of the dark side itself.

Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:36 pm
Mace legit won. No other interpretation satisfies all sources.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:39 pm
He legit won in the context that Anakin, an outside influence, affected the duel.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:55 pm
Vaapad was greatly helpful for him to win, although it is very interesting to note that Palpatine had knowledge of Windu’s personal style in terms of how it worked. It is mentioned in shatterpoint 
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:07 pm
@Meatpants wrote:He legit won in the context that Anakin, an outside influence, affected the duel.

In the novel, yes. However, movie overrules the novel where it contradicts, and in the movie, Anakin did not arrive until after Windu had won.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:19 pm
What?

Anakin Skywalker no longer had shatter-points. He was a shatterpoint. The shatterpoint. Everything depended on him. Everything.

^ this is before Anakin tells Windu that Sidious is the Sith Lord. Anakin being x distance away from the duel doesn't affect the shatterpoint, which was Anakin.
NotAA3
NotAA3
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on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:18 pm
I get that the novel perhaps doesn't directly align with the movie and can be ignored/disregarded but why does that mean that Palpatine definitively was overpowered by Mace? As far as I'm aware there's no evidence Windu legitimately overpowered Sidious in the office and the fact that Lucas line edited the novel yet didn't bother to change it so Mace was the legitimate victor tells us a lot about his intent.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:31 pm
Even disregarding Mace's outright victory as perhaps circumstantial, the novel still describes them as fighting in a perfect stalemate. Mace was deflecting Sidious' power back at him "with ease," and he was focusing his efforts on finding shatterpoints.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:42 pm
SithArchaeologist wrote:Even disregarding Mace's outright victory as perhaps circumstantial, the novel still describes them as fighting in a perfect stalemate. Mace was deflecting Sidious' power back at him "with ease," and he was focusing his efforts on finding shatterpoints.

Ummmm

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.
NotAA3
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:47 pm
@Meatpants wrote:
SithArchaeologist wrote:Even disregarding Mace's outright victory as perhaps circumstantial, the novel still describes them as fighting in a perfect stalemate. Mace was deflecting Sidious' power back at him "with ease," and he was focusing his efforts on finding shatterpoints.

Ummmm

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

He was talking about the saber section of their duel lmao.

Edit: Not to mention he seems to be "films only" on this fight and Mace's blade being bent back to his face is outright contradicted by the movie.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:49 pm
Doesn't matter. Even if Windu disarms him somehow, he just overpowers black man with the Force.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:51 pm
Revenge of the Sith wrote:Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow’s rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor’s office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace’s only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint.

"The fighting was effortless for him now," and that fighting included releasing Sidious' power back at him.
Meatpants
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on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:58 pm
How does this address the fact that Mace disarmed Sidious via Anakin's shatterpoint?
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion Empty Re: ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:59 pm
@Meatpants wrote:How does this address the fact that Mace disarmed Sidious via Anakin's shatterpoint?

It doesn't, necessarily. Just pointing out that, at absolute worst, Mace is Sidious' equal with the blade.
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