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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 16th 2020, 4:05 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Darth Malgus as of the end of Deceived, Bastila is as she was during the Star Forge in KOTOR. 


SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Pjimag10

Three posts each of varying character counts (10,000, 13,750, 17,500) and a conclusion that's 6,500. Quotes, evidence, etc. are not included. 

No time limit between posts due to real life obligations.

@Nute_Chethray Is this okay, or do you want any changes to be made?


Last edited by BoD on March 21st 2020, 6:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
The lord of hunger
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 16th 2020, 4:44 pm
TAG AND t4V
Nute_Chethray
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March 16th 2020, 6:30 pm
This is all fine, thanks for making the thread. Do you want to start or?
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 16th 2020, 6:32 pm
You can start if you want. Got a separate post to follow up on first.
Nute_Chethray
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March 16th 2020, 6:46 pm
BoD wrote:You can start if you want. Got a separate post to follow up on first.
Same lol
IG
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 16th 2020, 6:51 pm
TAEP
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 16th 2020, 8:29 pm
@Geistalt Please don't post your opinions until later as it's an SS between Cheth and I.
HeartoftheForce
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 16th 2020, 8:51 pm
TAEP
The Adventurous Jedi
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 17th 2020, 5:01 am
TAEP.
xolthol
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March 17th 2020, 7:52 am
Great match TAEP
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 17th 2020, 8:33 am
@Nute_Chethray I've got to finish a couple of internship applications so if you aren't planning to write your first post in the next 2-3 days, I can start soon and post first.
Nute_Chethray
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March 17th 2020, 10:23 am
BoD wrote:@Nute_Chethray I've got to finish a couple of internship applications so if you aren't planning to write your first post in the next 2-3 days, I can start soon and post first.
I probably won't have replied by then since I have to start canon tournament by the week
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 17th 2020, 7:26 pm
Nute_Chethray wrote:
BoD wrote:@Nute_Chethray I've got to finish a couple of internship applications so if you aren't planning to write your first post in the next 2-3 days, I can start soon and post first.
I probably won't have replied by then since I have to start canon tournament by the week
Ok. Got to do my story, a post and a project but should have them done by Thursday if I'm as productive as today so post will be up by the weekend (hopefully).
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 21st 2020, 6:36 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on March 22nd 2022, 1:12 am; edited 6 times in total
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 21st 2020, 6:38 pm
The lord of hunger
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 21st 2020, 6:58 pm
SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) K8xFy1td_400x400

SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) 228124001
great post


Last edited by The lord of hunger on March 21st 2020, 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 21st 2020, 7:59 pm
A few misconceptions that have been previously addressed (Not my place to elaborate though, it's Cheth's debate) but the post itself is enjoyable to read.
IG
IG
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 21st 2020, 8:01 pm
Good post,
Nute_Chethray
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March 21st 2020, 8:36 pm
Great post, will reply after starting the canon tournament most likely SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) 1289255181
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

March 22nd 2020, 12:17 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Thanks all, and no worries, Cheth. Take your time. Looking forward to seeing your tourney case.  SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) 228124001
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

April 9th 2020, 8:46 am
Btw I did not forget about this, just got really sick (and still am) and some other stuff that cause a great delay. Will reply as soon as possible
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

May 13th 2020, 5:56 am
Just wanted to reassure you that I did not forget about this, and I'm almost done with my reply, my mental capacity has just been somewhat occupied with college stuff
BreakofDawn
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Re: SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray)

May 13th 2020, 7:28 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@Nute_Chethray Take your time. I'm looking forward to your response. I'm on hiatus for a bit beyond very short posts every now and then so no rush. SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) 228124001
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Malgus

May 26th 2020, 7:56 pm
I want to start by saying I won’t try to lowball Malgus unnecessarily, so if I don’t reply to some of your showings, it's likely since I agree. I’ll show why Bastila is great, not why Malgus is weak. 

Malgus only beat Kao at the late stages of the fight, during which 1) as you correctly stated, Malgus was enraged, 2) Kao was exhausted, as seen by his slow and defensive blows instead of acrobatics and force attacks. Before both of these factors applied, Kao outmaneuvered Malgus while also dueling and killing his master. I doubt that this is a show of superiority. I’d agree if you said Deceived Malgus is > Kao due to his growth though. 

This scan you provided also noted that someone specializing on one form would have the advantage over them.

Dooku said wrote:“They take on too much. Someone who spent all his time studying a single form could probably best a battlemaster” 

Kenobi does question if Dooku could beat a battlemaster, but Ahsoka dismisses Kenobi’s doubts. 

BoD wrote wrote:"The Battlemasters of the Order are usually the most elite warriors within the Jedi Order, and have included the likes of the HoT/Outlander - a character whose skill needs no real elaboration - and Cin Drallig, a man Dooku considered to be around the same tier as Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi"

The comparison to other battlemasters is irrelevant, since the Outlander has beaten a far greater Malgus than the one who beat Kao. 

BoD wrote wrote:"Yet a vastly pre-prime Malgus’ physical strength utterly crushed him."

Did Malgus get physically stronger?

BoD wrote wrote:"Overwhelmed Satele Shan, who by this point had grown massively since their last duel and become a Jedi Knight, with his physical strength alone"

Malgus was stronger than her. But she could still hold him onehanded while tearing apart a large tree. 

BoD wrote wrote:

"On top of this, he also shows enough power to effortlessly shatter columns in the Jedi Temple with the Force just as a side-effect of his anger"
By your quote (never read the novel) it sounds like a force scream, not a “sideeffect”. This was also directly after he saw his lover get hurt, so his anger was increased above normal. And while still impressive its not that great. 

BoD wrote wrote:"a grenade to the face"

The detonator barely managed to injure Malcom, but the mountain blast is more than enough to make the feat impressive. Wouldn’t say he overpowered her grip as he still was stuck, especially not after her second blast. But he resisted it well. 

BoD wrote wrote:"even when he’s heavily wounded after the Hope attack"

Malgus confirmed he felt no pain, only anger and hate, so he wasn’t hindered, maybe even amped:

Insider wrote wrote:"But he felt no pain. He felt only anger.
Hate"

Malgus also confirms the buildings landing on him made him control and sharpen his anger and power:

Insider wrote wrote:"With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power"

BoD wrote wrote:

"Malgus himself notes that he doesn’t need to defeat the Jedi in saber combat, but that he takes joy in doing it."

After Malgus claimed he could end the jedi in several ways, he realises that the jedi is feigning weakness and baiting him. His previous opinion of the jedi’s ability wrong:

Insider wrote wrote:"He was baiting him, Malgus realised. Feigning weakness."

BoD wrote wrote:

"and then proceeds to overwhelm the Jedi in both lightsaber combat and with lightning."

The jedi was beaten because he became careless as he tried to avenge his padawan, and was hit by lightning before he could raise his guard. Malgus even notes that the jedi was briefly overcome by anger:

Insider wrote wrote:"A flash of anger, quickly suppressed, shot from the zabrak as he bounded over the rubble at Malgus"

"At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue force lightning. They struck the charging jedi: swept through his defences, swirled around him and began to burn flesh. 
The impressiveness of the building feat itself is exaggerated. The entire town was “ruined”, the buildings “smoldered”, and the planet “charred”. The buildings were already ruined, the jedi just pushed them over Malgus. An “avalanche” suggests a mass quantity of pieces, not two or three buildings:

Insider wrote wrote:"buildings and corpses smoldered in the ruins of an Alderaani town"

"He saw nothing but charred ruins, rubbled buildings, burnt out vehicles." 

"...carrying the smell of a charred planet, a planet Malgus had intended to kill, but only wounded." 

"An avalanche of duracrete and transpirasteel"

Malgus is superior to the jedi. But all those factors make the gap alot smaller. And the jedi isn’t massively impressive either. 

BoD wrote wrote:"And killing two padawans and a knight at once:"

Oneshotting three forceusers is a great feat yes. 


BoD wrote wrote:"Said lightning is in itself one of Malgus’ most potent weapons, being capable of defeating Jedi as powerful as the one mentioned above, as well as one-shotting Aryn Leneer when she was defending against it"

Aryn is good, but thats because of her fighting Malgus. And if he can oneshot her, why is she good?


I’d also like to address this: 

BoD wrote wrote:"He has long been considered one of the greatest warriors in the Sith Empire, putting him in the same league as beings like Marr, whose abilities are “second to none”"

Note that while Malgus is one of the greatest, in an empire of countless sith that still could mean there are dozens if not hundreds in the same category. Even if it puts Malgus in “the same league” as Marr, you already explained that Marr is superior to him: “second to none”. 

The Zallow - Adraas comparison



BoD wrote wrote:"All of these feats are performed before the death of Eleena, which is described as being a huge power boost for him, with Malgus likening it to the difference between “drawing on the Force” and as if he actually “were the Force”, and residing in the “calm eye of a storm of hate”"
I’m not going to say there wasn’t any growth, but I again think its exaggerated. 

Your argument for a massive growth on Malgus’s part is his performances against Adraas. First Adraas pushing Malgus’s reserves, and then Malgus stomping him. There will be two main points why I disagree. 

1) Zallow vs Adraas

Deceived wrote wrote:"Malgus finally spotted Master Zallow ten paces away, whirling, spinning, his green blade a blur of precision and speed. One Sith warrior fell to him, another. Lord Adraas landed before him, trying to take Malgus's kill for himself. Adrass ducked low and slashed at Zallow's knees. Zallow leapt over the blow and unleashed a blast of energy that sent Adraas skidding on his backside across the hall."
In the attack on the jedi temple, we actually got to see Zallow and Adraas duel. If one can call it that. Zallow easily kills two sith warriors and without pause faces Adraas, defeating him in a single force attack while dodging his attack. The fact that Adraas wasn’t able to last even a second against Zallow doesn’t speak well for his abilities compared to Malgus. Of course this alone might not convince you. 


2) Malgus vs Adraas

This point will address the two confrontations the pair had.

Deceived wrote wrote:"Malgus tested Adraas’s strength."

"Malgus summoned a reserve of strength and pushed Adraas back a stride" 

In the first, they weren’t dueling, they were “testing” each other in a pure blade lock. Its not really representative of a duel. Malgus drawing on a reserve of strength (not his reserves, just a reserve) is just him drawing on his available force power, which meant he held back beforehand, as a “test”. Malgus adding part of his power already allowed him to overpower Adraas. 

The reason Malgus’s superiority is more apparent in their actual duel, is that Malgus doesn’t hold back at all. Angered and “not bothering with finesse”, he wanted to destroy Adraas and show his superiority. 

Deceived wrote wrote:"Malgus felt the hate pouring off Adraas, the power, but it paled in comparison to the rage and hate roiling in Malgus."

"He did not bother with finesse."

"You have foreseen it but you cannot stop it. You are a child, Adraas. And tonight you pay. "

So in the end, Adraas was always massively inferior to Malgus, Eleena’s death just allowed him to fully embrace his rage and hatred. Malgus did grow, but hardly an enormous amount.


Last edited by Nute_Chethray on May 26th 2020, 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SS - Darth Malgus (BoD) vs Bastila Shan (Nute_Chethray) Empty Satele

May 26th 2020, 7:56 pm

This is where the fun begins. My goal in this post is to show why Bastila is more than capable of beating Malgus both as a forceuser and a duelist. Although there are multiple ways to do so, I want to start by showcasing Bastila’s abilities before she turned. 



Limitations



First part of my case is that Bastila was emotionaly hindered and conflicted throughout Kotor, up until after she turned. 

Bastila Shan said wrote:“Every time I try to call on all my teachings to calm myself, they fail me.”

“I need to be away from this bond of ours. I need to weaken it.”

“But Malak must be stopped, my own feelings are nothing compared to that. Yet I know this could affect the sake of our mission if not resolved - I can’t let that happen.” 

“Malak has to be stopped. How can I do that if I let myself be blinded by my feelings for you?”

This is Bastila referring to her love for Revan. Clearly showing she’s unable to properly call upon the force and is emotionally conflicted.

There’s also these quotes: 

Jolee Bindo said wrote:"Remember the bond that was forged between you when she rekindled the spark that was your life. Through that bond she touched your memories, and also the echo of the dark taint within you."

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:and there is no telling how Bastila's Force bond with the Dark Lord would affect her.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote wrote:Unfortunately, this intense awareness of the dark side, paired with her reckless nature, ultimately led to her being drawn into Darth Malak's control as his new apprentice.

Which state that in addition to being conflicted by her love for Revan, she also was being drawn to the darkside by the dark taint inside of him. So there were two things hindering her at once. 


Combat



Bastila was noted several times to be the perfect jedi, and the quotes often relate it directly to her power and skill. 

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastila Shan was a Jedi exemplar.

Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote:Bastila Shan: A brash, impulsive, and powerful Jedi,

SWTOR: Encyclopedia wrote wrote:Master Satele is heir to a line of powerful Jedi. She claims to be a descendant of the once-fallen hero Revan, and Bastila Shan, whose battle meditation skills were peerless. Though there is immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy

SWTOR Codex wrote wrote:Renowned for her wisdom and powerful connection to the Force, Master Satele Shan is the voice and conscience of the Jedi Order. She is a direct descendant of Bastila Shan, the legendary Jedi who battled Darth Revan centuries ago.

Knights of the Old Republic prima guide wrote wrote:Even in the dark halls where the Sith Lords gather, young Bastila is whispered to be a Jedi of note. Who knows the terrible cost of such dark praise?
This is especially impressive since jedi in the KOTOR era were particularly skilled in the force and lightsaber combat, even more so than clone wars jedi. (Presumably referring to average jedi, since Yoda is confirmed > any jedi before him). 

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime. They do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against the Mandalorian hordes.

To show just how impressive even LS Bastila was, we have her fighting Darth Bandon, despite him having the help of his boarding party, and managing to escape. This is noteworthy since A) Bastila already was affected by Revan’s dark taint. B) Bandon was Malak’s apprentice and Shadow Hand. 


As a Shadow Hand, Bandon is second only to Malak.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:A Shadow Hand's expertise in cruelty, trickery, and the dark side are second only to the Master-for now.

This puts him above Uthar Wynn, head of the Korriban academy. The head of the academy is decided by skill and power, as seen by Wynn chasing out Jorak Uln and Yuthara Bann planning to kill Uthar for his position.

Uthar Wynn said wrote:"I strived many years to hone my power until I was able to drive out my predecessor and rule the academy." 

Yuthura Ban said wrote:"There you and I will be alone with him. The perfect time to, shall we say, arrange for a change in the academy's leadership?"

Therefore he is superior to Uln and Bann, since the former couldn’t beat him and the latter required the help of Revan to beat Wynn. 

As the two candidates in line to succeed Wynn, they’d both be above everyone else in the academy, including Sion, who’s even confirmed to study at the “feet” of Uln, despite being a Great Sith War veteran and trained as a jedi. 

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:The Sith students of Darth Revan and Darth Malak are many of the same Jedi Crusaders that once fought for the republic. Already proficient in the Jedi arts, these marauders acquire new nefarious talents studying at the feet of Headmaster Jorak Uln - one of Exar Kun's original Sith acolytes.

During the Dark Wars, surviving Sith students submit to the triumvirate.

After KOTOR, Sion became a leader in the triumvirate, which is attributed to skill with the blade. 

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:Meanwhile, Sith survivors wage civil war, culling the weak and electing leadership by the lightsaber's blade.
This puts him above the bladeborn and other sith masters. Sith masters were few in Revan’s empire, but all sith in the empire were noted to be masters of the force.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:Dozens, if not hundreds of Sith apprentices learn the ways of the dark side of the Force, and a few even rise of the rank of Sith Master, training students of their own. With legions of armored troops spreading throughout the galaxy, all led by masters of the Force, the Sith Empire seems unstoppable.

The bladeborn are elite sith assassins who killed at least 10 jedi.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide wrote wrote:Traced to the Bladeborn, a Sith offshoot dedicated to sword mastery, these cortosis-faced weapons were given to “masterblades” who survived no less than 10 lightsaber-wielding warriors in combat.

Sith assassins use electrostaffs, so they’d be at a natural disadvantage. The assassins were trained by Revan and used the power of their targets against them.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:"Established by Darth Revan "

"They drain the Force from their targets to augment their own powers"

These assassins were a “pivotal” tool for the sith triumvirate. Pivotal meaning something of “crucial importance”.  

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:the Sith Assassins become pivotal tools for the Sith Triumvirate.

So we have LS Bastila > hindered LS Bastila < Bandon + boarding party (consisting of sith and troopers) > Bandon > Uthar Wynn > Jorak Uln/Yuthara Bann > Sion > Sith masters > Bladeborn > sith assassins > KOTOR jedi > CW jedi.  

Which puts a pre-prime Bastila right next to the second-greatest sith in the sith Empire. 


Physicals



You claim Malgus will simply overpower Bastila. I believe she’s physically weaker, but she’s strong enough to hold him off and beat him by other factors. 

Augmentation. While physicals might provide an edge in some situations, force augmentation can make up for that. Since its basic I’ll give a few examples and if you need more tell me. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

An old man holds bladelocks against someone who beat a vong, and a magically-enhanced warrior with one hand each. We also have Dooku vs Anakin (pre-rots), Ahsoka vs Grievous, etc. 

Then there’s physicals. The hindering factors apply for both points:


1) Bastila vs Malak

While a loss, Bastila showed capable of holding off Malak in lightsaber combat long enough for Revan and Carth to escape and take off with the Ebon Hawk. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLjd0XNsa4A  (roughly at 9 min)


Malak would have had significantly greater augmentation because of his established superiority in power, so Bastila would have to make up for both his superior physicalities and superior augmentation, while Malgus only has the former. 

Yuthara Ban said wrote:"You know the name? Malak is the strongest of us, and the strongest always rules."

2) Durability

After being captured by Malak, she was tortured by him for days, in which he repeatedly fired force lightning on her.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwbzyiUCb3U


Yet its specifically noted that the torture is not why she turned, but rather her exposure to the darkside through Revan and Malak, as well as her own mental state 



Champions of the Force Preview 6 wrote wrote:Unfortunately, this intense awareness of the dark side, paired with her reckless nature, ultimately led to her being drawn into Darth Malak's control as his new apprentice.


This is despite Malak being her confirmed superior, being superior to Darth Revan, and being on a darkside force nexus. 

Summary



- Malgus is physically stronger. But Bastila has fought stronger opponents before. 


- While Malgus is impressive, he’s not with Marr or Scourge. Bastila on the level of Bandon, who’s second only to Malak. She’s above almost everyone in her era, despite the jedi of the time being extraordinarily skilled and powerful. 


-Bastila tanked Malak’s lightning for days. The jedi Malgus beat weren’t too impressive. 


-The gap between Malgus/Kao is undetermined. Bastila scales massively over Uthar Wynn and sith who killed abnormally skilled 20 forceusers with electrostaffs.


-Bastila held off Malak in a duel (despite him being superior), and of fighting Bandon + an army. I don’t see why Malgus would be any worse. 

-All this is just a heavily hindered LS Bastila.
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