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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 5th 2020, 6:49 pm
@Corvinus wrote:@BoD Fair enough. Just know that invalidates Valkorion's accolades though.
I rarely (if ever) use accolades for Valkorion. He has feats and scaling that put him far above ROTS Sheev's paygrade.
SnowxElf
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on February 5th 2020, 9:20 pm
@Corvinus Sheev was stated to become a pure manifestation of the darkside as well by the time of DE. His organic body was actually replaced with darkside energy. The Son isn't the darkside itself either. He is just a very pure manifestation of it.
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on February 5th 2020, 11:08 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:@SnowxElf

None of the quotes are invalid necessarily.

Well, they're technically contradicted, and the second one you posted doesn't even state "ever" it can easily just refer to during the events of ROTS - not all of history.

They are subjective.

Which means that they're not factual, ergo there's no reason to take them as binding.

Highly doubt that the writers meant the quotes to include force deities anyway. To each is own.

The quotes you cited were written before The Son was conceived as a character, so obviously the intent wasn't to include him in them. However, Valkorion wouldn't have intended to be bound by the quotes either given that he likewise predates their existence.

"Well, they're technically contradicted, and the second one you posted doesn't even state "ever" it can easily just refer to during the events of ROTS - not all of history."

They are contradicted, yeah, but that doesn't mean that the quotes should be omitted completely. They still hold weight, Not many characters have amazing accolades like that. The quotes still emphasize superiority over others.

If the quote may or may not refer to only a certain time period, it's subjective.

"Which means that they're not factual, ergo there's no reason to take them as binding."

No supremacy quotes are really 100% invincible because writers aren’t perfect, they make mistakes. It just depends on how you interrupt the lore and sources.
Many people have even made good arguments that post-pool Sarasu Taalon > DE sheev. Even though Sidious is “supposed to be stronger” by all means. 

"The quotes you cited were written before The Son was conceived as a character, so obviously the intent wasn't to include him in them. However, Valkorion wouldn't have intended to be bound by the quotes either given that he likewise predates their existence."

I would say that The Son wasn’t supposed to be included either way because he’s a God-tier force user. Force entities already existed in the lore before The Son anyway that should be able to use the darkside btw.

How do you know that Valk wasn't intended to be bound by the quote? Even if a quote is made before a character exist that doesn’t mean said character is exempted from the quote. Not to mention, writers usually mold their stories into the lore as much as possible. Trying not to retcon anything and uphold the lore established, including quotes.


Deities are never compared to mortal force users though. So they're exempted from the quotes clearly too. Anakin was compared to The Ones but he was a miraculous coincidence, the chosen one. It would be silly to put deities and mortal force users in the same category anyway. That's like putting god in the same category as humans.
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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 6th 2020, 1:41 pm
@SnowxElf:

They are contradicted, yeah, but that doesn't mean that the quotes should be omitted completely. They still hold weight, Not many characters have amazing accolades like that. The quotes still emphasize superiority over others.

Quote me where I said that they automatically have no weight when they're contradicted because I'm pretty sure I never said that. They show how powerful Palpatine is and can definitely be used to place him above the people who were intended to be bound by the quote, but they don't place him above everyone, which is the main point here.

If the quote may or may not refer to only a certain time period, it's subjective.

Then there's no reason to assume your interpretation is correct over mine, ergo there's no reason to accept the quote as placing Sidious above all Dark Siders.

No supremacy quotes are really 100% invincible because writers aren’t perfect, they make mistakes. It just depends on how you interrupt the lore and sources.

Which was the point... There's absolutely no reason to take supremacy quotes as binding given their subjective nature.

Many people have even made good arguments that post-pool Sarasu Taalon > DE sheev. Even though Sidious is “supposed to be stronger” by all means.

Why is Sidious necessarily supposed to be stronger than Taalon?

I would say that The Son wasn’t supposed to be included either way because he’s a God-tier force user. Force entities already existed in the lore before The Son anyway that should be able to use the darkside btw.

Where do we draw the line on who would have been and who wouldn't have been included though? Valkorion is described as an "almost Godlike avatar of the Dark Side" (a "God-tier force user" by all means), possesses the life force of an entire planet+8000 Sith Lords, and spent 1500 years studying the Force which given his insane potential should make him an absolutely colossal powerhouse. You admit they wouldn't want to bind The Son to the quote if he had existed at the time of its conception - given his status as an entity - but haven't given a single reason why they'd want to bind Valkorion either when he's likewise operating on another tier of power compared to most beings and can easily be argued to be a supremely powerful Dark Side entity as well.

How do you know that Valk wasn't intended to be bound by the quote? Even if a quote is made before a character exist that doesn’t mean said character is exempted from the quote. Not to mention, writers usually mold their stories into the lore as much as possible. Trying not to retcon anything and uphold the lore established, including quotes.

Because Valk wasn't created at the time... You've already admitted that later beings (e.g. The Son) would be considered to be too powerful by the authors to be bound under the quote, but haven't at all considered Valk could likewise fall into this bracket. Again, where do we draw the line?

Deities are never compared to mortal force users though. So they're exempted from the quotes clearly too. Anakin was compared to The Ones but he was a miraculous coincidence, the chosen one. It would be silly to put deities and mortal force users in the same category anyway. That's like putting god in the same category as humans.

So, The Son is exempt, because he's not a normal Force User? You're treating Valk as though he is... As elaborated on above, he clearly isn't.
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on February 6th 2020, 2:13 pm
@SnowXElf wrote:Many people have even made good arguments that post-pool Sarasu Taalon > DE sheev. Even though Sidious is “supposed to be stronger” by all means. 

Taalon did get a massive boost after bathing in the pool but the amount of it he can actually is pretty much pathetic, because he’s not able to control it in the slightest. Otherwise we would have Ben Skywalker>Sidious arguments. Furthermore the pool was making him into something different than a sith, so the Sidious accolades wouldn’t really apply, or otherwise it could be referring to applicable power.
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on February 6th 2020, 6:41 pm
@NotAA3

NotAA3: wrote:Quote me where I said that they automatically have no weight when they're contradicted because I'm pretty sure I never said that. They show how powerful Palpatine is and can definitely be used to place him above the people who were intended to be bound by the quote, but they don't place him above everyone, which is the main point here.
^You didn’t say that they had no weight, at least that I’m aware of. I had know way of knowing if you were alluding to that or not. Glad we cleared that up.

NotAA3: wrote:Then there's no reason to assume your interpretation is correct over mine, ergo there's no reason to accept the quote as placing Sidious above all Dark Siders.
^I agree with the first point. I agreed with the second point already. There where force deities that could use the lightside/darkside before many of the quotes I posted existed, see the bedlam spirits. Who are obviously stronger practitioners of both sides of the force than any mortal force-user.

NotAA3: wrote:Which was the point... There's absolutely no reason to take supremacy quotes as binding given their subjective nature.
^I literally said this in my first post on this topic. However, you replied saying that subjective quotes weren't factual, which I already stated (look at my first post).


It was almost like you were alluding that only the quotes I posted weren't factual.

NotAA3: wrote:Why is Sidious necessarily supposed to be stronger than Taalon?
^That was posted in quotations ("supposed to be stronger"). I think many people perceive that Sidious is stronger because of his quotes and accolades that Taalon doesn’t have. I don’t necessarily agree with that.


Your long reply will be broken down into parts so my counters appear more clearly,  below:

NotAA3: wrote:Where do we draw the line on who would have been and who wouldn't have been included though?
^The line is not hard to draw. The category of mortals and deities are a night and day deference. Deities are cosmic level threats:
The Father: "And a prison. You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe." (TCW: Overlords)

NotAA3: wrote:Valkorion is described as an "almost Godlike avatar of the Dark Side" (a "God-tier force user" by all means), possesses the life force of an entire planet+8000 Sith Lords, and spent 1500 years studying the Force which given his insane potential should make him an absolutely colossal powerhouse.
Here is the quote you used:


Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side(Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia)


^The thing is, Sidious is still stated to be stronger many times than this version of  Vitiate. That technically makes Sidious also an almost godlike darkside user.


>Vitiate dominated the minds of thousands of Sith lords. Lord Kaan and Krayt also did this. This one showing does not make Vitiate automatically scale above Kaan and Krayt, and for sure doesn't put him in the same category as a deities. Also, his planet draining feats are comparable to Sidious' Byss feat. Nihilus also drained a planet, just by speaking.


>Sidious could content with Yoda who was 900 years around the time of his death. Yet, Sidious later surpassed him, all in a much shorter life. The fact Valk lived so long doesn't mean much.


>Valk is powerful for sure but not in a different category than mortal force users.

NotAA3: wrote:You admit they wouldn't want to bind The Son to the quote if he had existed at the time of its conception - given his status as an entity - but haven't given a single reason why they'd want to bind Valkorion either when he's likewise operating on another tier of power compared to most beings and can easily be argued to be a supremely powerful Dark Side entity as well.

Sidious and Nihilus have also been described as "dark entities":



The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine. (Source: Dark Empire Endnotes)
Eager to meet his captor, Luke learned that the dark side nexus he had sensed was none other than the cloned reincarnation of Emperor Palpatine himself. (The New Essential Chronology)

His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies, sacrificing itself to his hunger." (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


^him being described as an entity does not place him > everyone else. For sure not in the same category as force deities still.

NotAA3: wrote:Because Valk wasn't created at the time... You've already admitted that later beings (e.g. The Son) would be considered to be too powerful by the authors to be bound under the quote, but haven't at all considered Valk could likewise fall into this bracket. Again, where do we draw the line?
^Again, Valk not being created at the time does not exclude him from the quote. That's not how quotes work. Given that Valk"s character was molded into the lore already established there's no reason that the quote couldn't be applied to him.


>Valk is not in that bracket, not even close. His best feat is planetary, deities have shown to be Universal


Even if Valk, Sheev, and Nihilus have been described as having "dark entity status". They are still compared to other force users:


Darth Nihilus was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of the galaxy, so corrupted that his very presence meant death." (Star Wars Miniature Bust: Darth Nihilus (Gentle Giant Studios))

Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt. (Behind the Threat: The Sith, Part 3: Design)

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side. Over the millennia, many creatures have been broken, twisted, and rebuilt by this evil power. (The Dark Side Sourcebook)

^I know this the probably referring to vitiate, not Valk, but the notion that he grew in power enough for him to be put in the same category as deities after that would be an impossible claim.

Valk clearly is in the same category as most force users. He just happens to be one of the most powerful of them. All of his feats have also been replicated or similar to others.
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on February 6th 2020, 7:40 pm
@SnowxElf: I'll hopefully get back to you this weekend, but don't hold me to it.
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on February 6th 2020, 7:47 pm
Even if Valk, Sheev, and Nihilus have been described as having "dark entity status". They are still compared to other force users:


[size=13]Darth Nihilus was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of the galaxy, so corrupted that his very presence meant death." (Star Wars Miniature Bust: Darth Nihilus (Gentle Giant Studios))
[/size]
[size=13]Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt. (Behind the Threat: The Sith, Part 3: Design)
[/size]
[size=13]The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side. Over the millennia, many creatures have been broken, twisted, and rebuilt by this evil power. (The Dark Side Sourcebook)[/size]
^I know this the probably referring to vitiate, not Valk, but the notion that he grew in power enough for him to be put in the same category as deities after that would be an impossible claim.

Valk clearly is in the same category as most force users. He just happens to be one of the most powerful of them. All of his feats have also been replicated or similar to others.

Sidious is compared because he's a Sith. Vitiate is compared because he's a Sith. Valkorion is not a Sith, so he's not compared. He transcends those labels.
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on February 6th 2020, 8:15 pm
@MasterCilghal I have never fully examined the fight with post-pool Taalon in great detail. Thanks for the reply.

@NotAA3 Alright man, thanks for the reply.

@BoD

BoD: wrote:Sidious is compared because he's a Sith. Vitiate is compared because he's a Sith. Valkorion is not a Sith, so he's not compared. He transcends those labels.
^definition of transcend: be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division).


If you're implying that Valk is so powerful that he no longer is considered a Sith, that's not what the lore indicates. He stated not to be a Sith because he cut his ties with them. Also the goal of Vitiate (when he was a Sith) did not change even after his transformation into Valk, he had the same motives.


Also, how exactly do you transcend those labels? 
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on February 6th 2020, 8:24 pm
^definition of transcend: be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division).


If you're implying that Valk is so powerful that he no longer is considered a Sith, that's not what the lore indicates. He stated not to be a Sith because he cut his ties with them. Also the goal of Vitiate (when he was a Sith) did not change even after his transformation into Valk, he had the same motives.


Also, how exactly do you transcend those labels? 

"To pass or extend beyond or above a non-physical limit; to go beyond the limits of something immaterial; to exceed."



Valk ditched his moniker as Sith Emperor and went on to dabble in other areas of the Force, including the lights side. He cast aside the beliefs of the Sith. That is what I meant by "transcend": he moved beyond ancient Sith beliefs.
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on February 6th 2020, 9:01 pm
@BoD I see

Is there anything that indicates that he even believed in the ancient Sith Beliefs to begin with?

Also, Sidious basically did what you described. He moved beyond the rule-of-two, the old teaching, because he didn't want to be replaced. He also studied the light-side of the force and was stated to know every ability and create new ones.
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on February 6th 2020, 9:26 pm
Is there anything that indicates that he even believed in the ancient Sith Beliefs to begin with?

He was raised a Sith, was part of the Sith Order, was made a lord, etc. He was 100% a Sith.

Also, Sidious basically did what you described. He moved beyond the rule-of-two, the old teaching, because he didn't want to be replaced. He also studied the light-side of the force and was stated to know every ability and create new ones.

True, but Sidious still viewed himself as a Sith.
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on February 6th 2020, 9:57 pm
Can the sidious vs Valk argument be banned from the forum unless it's a formal CaV. Neither side will ever see things objectively, and in terms of shown feats (without further examination) Valk is portrayed as a godly force user.
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on February 8th 2020, 12:34 pm
@SnowxElf

You essentially conceded the specific quote you cited and also conceded supremacy quotes, in general, are subjective, so my job is basically done here. However, I'll respond to some more specific claims below:

^The line is not hard to draw. The category of mortals and deities are a night and day deference. Deities are cosmic level threats:
The Father: "And a prison. You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe." (TCW: Overlords)

You're fundamentally missing the point. The point is that as of the time it was written, neither Valk nor The Son was created, and thus they were not intended to be bound by it - the writer had no possible way of knowing a ridiculously powerful character like The Son would be created. They also had no knowledge that Valk would be created either. I asked where we draw the line on what the writer would be willing to include in the accolade - would they still be willing to write it if Valk were created at the time? Saying that, oh well, they wouldn't be cool with writing it if they'd known The Son existed is self-explanatory given his immense power, but you're ignoring the fact there's a fairly large gap between Sidious and The Son which plenty of characters could fit into. I'm asking you: can you substantiate where the writer would be willing to draw the line on who Sidious scales above - it certainly isn't just universe busters.

Anyway, regarding The Son's supposedly universal level power, we have absolutely no timeframe on how long it would have taken him nor his means of doing so. Remember, Vitiate would have been capable of wiping out the galaxy with the destruction of a single planet (from memory, Belsavis was the place I believe he wanted to be destroyed?) and a ritual circa SWTOR Act 3.

Regarding the next part, you're ignoring the fact that by itself none of this necessarily puts Vitiate with Sidious, it's just general holistics to make you ponder whether the writer would have wanted to bind such a being to Sidious's supremacy quotes:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. (Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia)


^The thing is, Sidious is still stated to be stronger many times than this version of  Vitiate. That technically makes Sidious also an almost godlike darkside user.

The point is to establish that Vitiate is continually holistically hyped up as Godlike. Obviously hyperbolic accolades aren't really anything to write home about, so I went into more detail on the holistics, this was just a preface.

>Vitiate dominated the minds of thousands of Sith lords. Lord Kaan and Krayt also did this. This one showing does not make Vitiate automatically scale above Kaan and Krayt, and for sure doesn't put him in the same category as a deities.

I never even brought up Vitiate dominating the minds of thousands of Sith Lords? I disagree on your comparisons with Kaan and Krayt, but as I don't want to stray off-topic, let's keep this relevant to the actual subject matter. What I actually said was:

Vitiate possesses the life force of an entire planet+8000 Sith Lords, and spent 1500 years studying the Force which given his insane potential should make him an absolutely colossal powerhouse.

Vitiate possesses the life force of an entire planet+8000 Sith Lords (and I actually forgot to mention the raw energy of "the largest Dark Side nexus the galaxy would ever see" on top of that) is what I actually stated. He absorbed immense power into his being and then spent 1500 years studying the Dark Side - amassing knowledge, and gaining power - which considering his immense potential (killing his father a fully trained Sith Lord who governed an entire planet at the age of 13 and perverting a Holocron to capture his father's spirit) is quite insane. Again, you're missing the point, which isn't that any of this necessarily puts him above Sidious, it's just that we've never seen a being quite like Vitiate in the lore.

Also, his planet draining feats are comparable to Sidious' Byss feat. Nihilus also drained a planet, just by speaking.

I'd love to delve into a debate on this, but keeping it relevant to the topic at hand, I never said Vitiate draining a planet paints him as some ultra-powerful being.

>Sidious could content with Yoda who was 900 years around the time of his death. Yet, Sidious later surpassed him, all in a much shorter life. The fact Valk lived so long doesn't mean much.

You're analysing the years Valk lived in a vacuum and not considering the larger context (i.e. the power he gained from Nathema+his insane potential).

>Valk is powerful for sure but not in a different category than mortal force users.

I'd say he's quite different from basically all mortal Force Users, and while he's not in the tier of The Son, that was never my argument.

Sidious and Nihilus have also been described as "dark entities":

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine. (Source: Dark Empire Endnotes)
Eager to meet his captor, Luke learned that the dark side nexus he had sensed was none other than the cloned reincarnation of Emperor Palpatine himself. (The New Essential Chronology)

His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies, sacrificing itself to his hunger." (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


^him being described as an entity does not place him > everyone else. For sure not in the same category as force deities still.

I never said him being described as an entity places him as > everyone else, that's a strawmann (much like the rest of your post).

^Again, Valk not being created at the time does not exclude him from the quote. That's not how quotes work. Given that Valk"s character was molded into the lore already established there's no reason that the quote couldn't be applied to him.

There's no reason that the quote couldn't be applied to him... apart from the fact that you'd have to place Sheev above The Son to do so.

>Valk is not in that bracket, not even close. His best feat is planetary, deities have shown to be Universal

The Ones have been shown to be universal under unknown context... Valk with a ritual and the destruction of a single planet could have eradicated all life in the galaxy.

Even if Valk, Sheev, and Nihilus have been described as having "dark entity status". They are still compared to other force users:


Darth Nihilus was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of the galaxy, so corrupted that his very presence meant death." (Star Wars Miniature Bust: Darth Nihilus (Gentle Giant Studios))

Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt. (Behind the Threat: The Sith, Part 3: Design)

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side. Over the millennia, many creatures have been broken, twisted, and rebuilt by this evil power. (The Dark Side Sourcebook)

^I know this the probably referring to vitiate, not Valk, but the notion that he grew in power enough for him to be put in the same category as deities after that would be an impossible claim.

None of those quotes mention Valkorion...

Valk clearly is in the same category as most force users. He just happens to be one of the most powerful of them. All of his feats have also been replicated or similar to others.

Holistically Valk is entirely different from what we've seen before and absolutely nothing paints him as the same as most mortal Force Users (see my comments on his holistic standing above).

Overall, this post was filled with strawmanns and you failed to grasp the overarching point. Maybe your next post will be better.

P.S. Sorry if this post is filled with typos, I wrote it in like 5 minutes and haven't proof read it.


Last edited by NotAA3 on February 8th 2020, 12:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
MasterCilghal
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on February 8th 2020, 12:45 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:I have never fully examined the fight with post-pool Taalon in great detail. Thanks for the reply.

No problem. My overall point, which on second thoughts I think I should have explained better, is that Ben Skywalker is repeatedly shown to be capable of withstanding Taalon’s attacks, along with (more or less) all the instances of him supposedly giving Luke a challenge being simple cases of him taking Luke off guard. Needless to say, no force user of Sheev’s caliber would have trouble with Ben.
Moral of the story, Taalon sucks.
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on February 8th 2020, 6:07 pm
@NotAA3 will reply today or in a few days
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on February 9th 2020, 1:51 am
@NotAA3 This will likely be my last Post to this back and forth.
The point is to establish that Vitiate is continually holistically hyped up as Godlike. Obviously hyperbolic accolades aren't really anything to write home about, so I went into more detail on the holistics, this was just a preface.
Holistically Valk is entirely different from what we've seen before and absolutely nothing paints him as the same as most mortal Force Users (see my comments on his holistic standing above).
I'd say he's quite different from basically all mortal Force Users, and while he's not in the tier of The Son, that was never my argument.
Yes, Valk's uniqueness is what we are arguing over. 
Although, You also said that the fact he was described as an entity might place him in a higher category then mortal force-users, which of course doesn't (see below). Also an entity and a deity are different. Also, not enough evidence that Valk is operating at a higher level than other top tiers.

NotAA3: wrote:You admit they wouldn't want to bind The Son to the quote if he had existed at the time of its conception - given his status as an entity - but haven't given a single reason why they'd want to bind Valkorion either when he's likewise operating on another tier of power compared to most beings and can easily be argued to be a supremely powerful Dark Side entity as well.

Vitiate possesses the life force of an entire planet+8000 Sith Lords (and I actually forgot to mention the raw energy of "the largest Dark Side nexus the galaxy would ever see" on top of that) is what I actually stated. He absorbed immense power into his being and then spent 1500 years studying the Dark Side - amassing knowledge, and gaining power - which considering his immense potential (killing his father a fully trained Sith Lord who governed an entire planet at the age of 13 and perverting a Holocron to capture his father's spirit) is quite insane. Again, you're missing the point, which isn't that any of this necessarily puts him above Sidious, it's just that we've never seen a being quite like Vitiate in the lore.


Not sure I follow you. You list several of his feats, but they have been replicated or inspired from lore that already existed. As a character, Nihilus was created before him and could probably be argued as being the main base for Vitiate as a character, given that he also wanted to drain life from the galaxy ect. and was hyped as being able to do so.

As for his father, that fact he killed him is impressive. However, his father doesn't really have any feats.

Also, Even an untrained Zannah has one-shotted Jedi without training:

Instinctively she lashed out at him. She didn't know how she did it, it wasn't even a conscious thought. She only knew he had shot her friend, he had killed Laa. His voice was cut short as she snapped his neck with the Force. The eyes of his companion went wide in horror. But before he could do anything else she had broken his neck too.
Source: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

As for Valk being a God-like Darkside user, doubtful he is hyped to same level of Sidious with/without his hyperbolic accolades:


•             First, literally every Jedi force Ghost in history kept Sidious captive in “Star Wars hell” so that he couldn’t ever possibly return to the galaxy, Palps was the only one this happened to (Dark Empire).
•             One of his force storms was said to be able to consume all of space.
Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet. Source: The Comics Companion
•             He was also the only Sith that was able to summon and control (usually) such storms. Which are stated to be able to "kill worlds".
"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds."
•             The Force itself created Anakin to get rid of him, and technically Plagueis.
•             He is the only Sith in history that could manifest himself as a spirit without an anchor, not to mention, he traveled light-years through space to get to his clone bodies as a spirit.
Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
•             He also was said to aid Plaguies in his “cosmic MM feat”.

Palpatine overall seems more God-like and more unique to me. Also, he was stated to perhaps be the strongest being in general:
And what of the Emperor? He was mighty in the Force, perhaps the mightiest being who has ever lived.
Source: Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi


You're analysing the years Valk lived in a vacuum and not considering the larger context (i.e. the power he gained from Nathema+his insane potential).

His potential is never really touched on. Of course, he never reached his full potential, still not convinced it would be higher than Luke’s, Anakin's, Plaguies' or Sidious’.

Rather doubtful as well that Valk is several times more powerful than Vitiate.

Also, Meetra could of killed Vitiate if she wanted to. This takes place hundreds of years after he performed many of his well known feats:

Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade, she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan’s. But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy, and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity. 


Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand. 


Vitiate on a Darkside nexus didn't sense Meetra's Saber flying to him.

Anyway, regarding The Son's supposedly universal level power, we have absolutely no timeframe on how long it would have taken him nor his means of doing so. Remember, Vitiate would have been capable of wiping out the galaxy with the destruction of a single planet (from memory, Belsavis was the place I believe he wanted to be destroyed?) and a ritual circa SWTOR Act 3.


The Children of the ones where still stated able to tear apart the universe. I don' think there's a reason to suggest that any mortal force user would be cable of doing so, or come close to it. Which is also why The Ones were stated to be able to do so given there status as deities.


As for Vitiate draining the entire galaxy, we never get to see if it actually would of worked. Also, the Universe is infinitely bigger than the galaxy. 

Nihilus was hyped to be able to drain the galaxy as well. He clearly didn't get very far.

You're fundamentally missing the point. The point is that as of the time it was written, neither Valk nor The Son was created, and thus they were not intended to be bound by it - the writer had no possible way of knowing a ridiculously powerful character like The Son would be created. They also had no knowledge that Valk would be created either. I asked where we draw the line on what the writer would be willing to include in the accolade - would they still be willing to write it if Valk were created at the time? Saying that, oh well, they wouldn't be cool with writing it if they'd known The Son existed is self-explanatory given his immense power, but you're ignoring the fact there's a fairly large gap between Sidious and The Son which plenty of characters could fit into. I'm asking you: can you substantiate where the writer would be willing to draw the line on who Sidious scales above - it certainly isn't just universe busters.


There are other Deities yeah. Abeloth, should also be around that level with full power. She did break her body apart into various avatars which made weaker versions of herself though. As for Waru, not a lot is really known about him, it's debatable if Waru is even a Force-User. The Bedlam spirits are stated as being all powerful, so they are taken out of the quotes for sure. The force priestesses aren't really known about, they also have to "follow rules" so to speak of. Even if the other Deities have a fraction of the power of The Ones that would still put them into a different category as well, IMO.   

If you believe there are other characters that go into that gap not sure who they are.

IMO, Luke is where the line is drawn because he is hyped to be the most powerful mortal force user. Still, mortals are never really compared to Deities throughout the lore.


Regarding the next part, you're ignoring the fact that by itself none of this necessarily puts Vitiate with Sidious, it's just general holistics to make you ponder whether the writer would have wanted to bind such a being to Sidious's supremacy quotes:


I Don't see why not, Sheev just has better feats.
NotAA3
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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 9th 2020, 1:57 am
I honestly don't see how you can still completely miss the point despite me making it clear in my post. Whatever though, I'll respond next weekend probably.
NotAA3
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on February 9th 2020, 1:35 pm
@SnowxElf I don't feel the need to respond on second thoughts, and my time is best spent on other tasks. I probably won't get back to this.
SnowxElf
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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 9th 2020, 1:52 pm
@NotAA3 okay man
LadyKulvax
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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 10th 2020, 12:29 pm
It's not that they're invalid, it's that they aren't debate-enders.

Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 BothLongAstrangiacoral
The lord of hunger
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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 10th 2020, 1:56 pm
no
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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 10th 2020, 2:52 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:It's not that they're invalid, it's that they aren't debate-enders.

Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 BothLongAstrangiacoral
Most appropriate use of this gif I've ever seen.
Blade_of_Dorin
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Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid? - Page 2 Empty Re: Are Palpatine's "Most Powerful" Accolades invalid?

on February 11th 2020, 10:07 am
No lmfao
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