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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 3:41 pm
u do know that when i state my reasons, im gonna have to hear a rebuttal of sorts, correct? which i will then counter, which will then be countered, and so on and so forth. see what i mean here? little bit more than two seconds. 

lol quorian beast. not gonna lie, i dont even know what that means. something to do with quotations maybe?
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 3:58 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd You don't need to respond if I address your reasons, but not bothering to provide them in the first place is kinda silly imo. You're on this forum to debate SW, yet you can't even provide reasons for a character winning when asked?
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 4:04 pm
Word Salad wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd You don't need to respond if I address your reasons, but not bothering to provide them in the first place is kinda silly imo. You're on this forum to debate SW, yet you can't even provide reasons for a character winning when asked?
Two things: One, how the heck did you tag him? Two, don't waste your time.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 4:07 pm
thats part of what i talking about ^^^ the guy above thinks im retarded cuz he 'totally debunked' my comment or some dumb shit like that, but i disagreed. its not fun at all to discuss with people like that. im sure u can relate, correct?
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 4:28 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:thats part of what i talking about ^^^ the guy above thinks im retarded cuz he 'totally debunked' my comment or some dumb shit like that, but i disagreed. its not fun at all to discuss with people like that. im sure u can relate, correct?
I don't think you're "retarded". I think you're like MyGod and refuse to listen to contrary evidence and facts because you overestimate your current abilities. It's a normal thing for debaters to go through. HP had a similar phase, as did I.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 4:43 pm
Caedus has this.
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 4:48 pm
@BreakofDawn I just did @"(Insert Name)".
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 4:54 pm
Huh, usually when I try to tag people with more than one word in their name or special characters it doesn't work.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 6:53 pm
sorry, i saw this but i had to rush out lol

im not gonna deny the fact that im cocky as shit, but i try to be very logical man. for one, vader was literally always my favorite character, and not even a year ago, i wouldve said he gets stomped by revan. now i think he wins pretty solidly, after i looked more into his both characters. i just changed my opinion. i hate luke as character (idk why, so dont ask me lol), but i can understand him beating vader. i just disagree with him beating vader as if vader was at his best, when he was clearly not. i think that luke is prolly a whole tier above the second best duelist in the verse, considering what he could do to vader in ROTJ. vader did want to beat him, so he was trying alright. i still do think that he wouldve semi stomped luke if he thought luke killed padme or something and didnt know he was his kid, though.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 6:54 pm
Honestly don't think I have to reply anymore (since others have aleready explained it), but I feel the need to show I didn't chicken out from giving an explaination:

I think Dooku wins since his power shouldn't be far behind Starkiller, and roughly equal with the others, but that he has a mayor advantage both in dueling and in skill/knowledge of the force.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 6:58 pm
i think ceadus is just too fast. reacting to luke is better feat than what any of them have. secondly, he has better powers than all of them (maybe not dooku) and is also more skilled with the force (not dooku, just arcann and SK), but he aint getting stomped by dooku in sabers ever, imo. even if he is tiers bellow luke, thats still incredibly good. i think dooku is better, but not massively so. plus, vader isnt a bad duelist either. SK matching him puts him in kenobi lvls of skill. arcann- idk about him. he is last place for a reason hahaha
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 7:35 pm
@BreakofDawn

They're both the most capable swordsmen,

I'm agreed that Dooku is the most capable swordsman, but why is Arcann above the others? In terms of technical skill, Starkiller has been stated to have "all but perfected Lightsaber combat." I certainly don't recall Arcann having accolades praising his technical skill this highly.

and both of them are powerful enough to tangle with the other combatants long enough for their skill edge to give them the win.

Based on what? I don't recall Dooku or Arcann possessing environmental feats close to SK's (cited previously) or scaling to any opponents that do. All-around SK seems to have a decisive power advantage, and while Dooku can maybe mitigate it with technical skill, my money is still on SK.

After that, it's a 50-50 as to who wins, though I'm leaning towards Dooku.

I would back Dooku over Arcann also.

@Cheth

I think Dooku wins since his power shouldn't be far behind Starkiller,

Feel free to provide feats form Dooku that compare to SK's (feats cited on the previous page).

and roughly equal with the others, but that he has a mayor advantage both in dueling and in skill/knowledge of the force.

Based on what is the advantage major?

@lorenzo.r.2nd

i think ceadus is just too fast. reacting to luke is better feat than what any of them have.

Luke was emotionally hindered, so the feat is entirely unquantifiable, we've seen Luke majorly job when emotional circumstances are involved. A more accurate display of Caedus's skill is his fight with Katarn and his strike team, who obviously aren't close to Luke.

secondly, he has better powers than all of them (maybe not dooku)

What role do Caedus's esoteric abilities play in the battle iyo?

and is also more skilled with the force (not dooku, just arcann and SK),

Based on what?

but he aint getting stomped by dooku in sabers ever, imo.

I agree, but relevance?

even if he is tiers bellow luke, thats still incredibly good.

He clearly doesn't share any remote parity, so relevance? I could say that while Arcann is tiers below Prime Valk, that's still incredibly good, but that doesn't remotely suggest he'd win this fight.

i think dooku is better, but not massively so.

Agreed.

plus, vader isnt a bad duelist either. SK matching him puts him in kenobi lvls of skill.

Well, SK was exhausted when he matched him, so I guess SK is tiers above Kenobi in skill? Great, thanks for further substantiating my position that SK wins.

arcann- idk about him. he is last place for a reason hahaha

Why is Arcann necessarily lower than Caedus?

My ranking would probably be SK>Dooku>Caedus~Arcann, and I'm really on the fence over those last two, so feel free to sway me to team Caedus.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 8:02 pm
Tossing around sith warships is close to destroying the cruiser, and being compared to apprentice Sheev also seems to indicate high force-sensitivity. He was also frequently noted to be one of the greatest masters of the order, with an ability to be the greatest. This was before becoming a sith and getting a large powerboost. 

As for the advantage in skill, its mainly for multiple times showing the ability to stalemate and outmatch superior duelists than anyone here (Like pre-IH anakin and IH Kenobi), as well as holding his own against Yoda, despite being tired from dueling Anakin and Kenobi. Managing to beat Grievous (pre-tcw 08 Grievous), presumably without or with minor useage of the force besides augmentation also suggests a high degree of skill.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 8:03 pm
I'm agreed that Dooku is the most capable swordsman, but why is Arcann above the others? In terms of technical skill, Starkiller has been stated to have "all but perfected Lightsaber combat." I certainly don't recall Arcann having accolades praising his technical skill this highly.

It's more about scaling. He scales above a character who even in TOR's golden age of swordsmen and women was regarded as having "legendary" martial abilities, was considered the greatest warrior of the Jedi Order long before their prime, etc. All of these accolades are very similar to Dooku's.

Also, SK was unable to pierce TFU II Vader's defences and was nearly struck down a couple of times during the fight, so I'm less impressed by one accolade that's likely to be hyperbole when compared to Arcann and Dooku's respective feats and accolades.


Based on what? I don't recall Dooku or Arcann possessing environmental feats close to SK's (cited previously) or scaling to any opponents that do.
Arcann off of chained Vaylin, who easily tore apart huge buildings and threw them like projectiles for example. He can also be scaled off the Outlander, who long before his prime and while wounded provided >1/3 of the power necessary to lift the Gravestone from the swamp it had been stuck in for centuries. 

Dooku can be scaled off the likes of AOTC/(maybe) TCW Mace and pre-IH Anakin, and a case could also be made for him being scaled off of pre-Plagueis boost Sheev. 



All-around SK seems to have a decisive power advantage, and while Dooku can maybe mitigate it with technical skill, my money is still on SK.

That would require him to have a power advantage so decisive that he'd be able to dominate. Dooku has arguably better mastery and both him and Arcann are not just better swordsmen but comparably powerful through a combination of scaling and feats.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 8:15 pm
Dooku's saber accolades should have more value since they encompass a greater period of time.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 16th 2019, 8:19 pm
They do, just pointing out that the HoT has very similar ones.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:38 pm
Word Salad wrote:
@EmperorCaedus wrote:
Word Salad wrote:
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Caedus edges

Why?

Superior feats and accolades.

What are his superior feats and accolades?

The only other person I could see an argument for is Starkiller

Then I shall make one. What does Caedus have on:

-Ragdolling Vader (additionally while exhausted SK blew away an army of his clones that could have easily overpowered Vader).
-Re-directing a falling ISD
-Atomisating half of a 300m long frigate

The answer: Nothing. Caedus's combat performances don't compare to SK's, nor do his environmental feats. He gets his shit kicked in here.

His superior feats include:
Jacen has achieved oneness, the most powerful and impressive feat out of any mortal force user. (Pre-prime)
Jacen has been poisoned and reduced it's effect using the force to stay alive, it would've easily killed him in minutes
Jacen augmented the powers and abilities of a mortal non-force user, something that no other being has done.
Jacen absorbed blaster fire from hundreds of bullets, before he was officially knighted.

A. Starkiller did not ragdoll Vader, we actually don't know if Starkiller is more conventionally powerful than Vader, it's impossible to gauge.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:43 pm
Team 1 takes this
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:44 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Team 1 takes this
It's free for all.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:44 pm
SK has achieved oneness
dooku has done that in low key 10 seconds, maybe less
i think valkorion and sheev have done that, but good point i suppose
19 BBY vader did that
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:46 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:SK has achieved oneness
dooku has done that in low key 10 seconds, maybe less
i think valkorion and sheev have done that, but good point i suppose
19 BBY vader did that
Starkiller has achieved oneness, yes

When exactly have the others achieved oneness while living?
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:47 pm
they havent? but ok lol oneness is no big deal tbh. i think weaker characters have done, and even obi wan has gotten close to it many times over
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:50 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:they havent? but ok lol oneness is no big deal tbh. i think weaker characters have done, and even obi wan has gotten close to it many times over
Why did you say Vader, Valkorion, and Sheev achieved oneness, when they haven't. You're just lying at this point

When has Obi-Wan got close to achieving oneness?
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 1:51 pm
ok, im done. too dumb for me. sorry.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

November 18th 2019, 2:39 pm
Lorenzo. That’s a lot coming from you.
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