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DarthAnt66
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Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Empty Re: "The Darth Malak Quote"

on December 28th 2019, 8:46 pm
Message reputation : 100% (9 votes)
This is my rebuttal to @LadyKulvax's "The Darth Malak Quote" argument on his "Exar Kun: The Ultimate Respect Thread (2019)", since I disagreed with almost everything said there. I thought it was appropriate to post it in a separate thread rather than clog up the actual respect thread with debate.

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 2019-04-25

There are a few errors here in the text alone, namely that it was Malak who betrayed Revan. Thus, Malak would not be enraged.

The WOTC article phrases the capture of Darth Revan the same way every other KOTOR-centric source does:

"Malak seized the mantle of his fallen Sith Master and proclaimed himself the new Dark Lord, swearing revenge on those who had killed Revan." 
(Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Prima's Official Strategy Guide)

"Malak seized the mantle of his fallen Sith Master and proclaimed himself the new Dark Lord, swearing revenge on those who had killed Revan."
(Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic official website)

"The Jedi Council, in a last ditch effort to stop Revan and Malak, engineered a trap for the Sith Lords. Though the snare neutralized Darth Revan, Malak escaped and took control of the Sith forces. Some claim that Malak fled the battle. Others maintain that he survived simply because he was stronger than Revan. Still others believe Malak turned on Revan, using the Jedi's attack as an opportunity to wrest control from his former Master's failing grip. Whatever the truth, Malak survived, and returned with a vengeance.
(Star Wars Databank - Darth Malak)

Special emphasis on the blue text. "Whatever the truth" -- as in, even if Malak "turned on Revan" -- he still "returned with a vengeance" against the Jedi. This is reaffirmed by Malak "swearing revenge" per the prima guide and official website. As to why, Malak notes on the Leviathan, "I thought I could destroy all my enemies with a single glorious victory," yet he failed to subdue Bastila Shan. Shan's battle meditation soon proved to be the only obstacle holding Malak back from galactic dominance. Moreover, as indicated by the purple text, many Sith doubted Malak's claim since he attacked from afar. Malak viewed it as fate that Revan survived so he could have "a second chance to prove himself": "I always knew there were some who would think I acted out of fear, that I did not want to face you. But now fate has given me a second chance to prove myself. Once I defeat you in combat no one will question my claim to the Sith throne: my triumph will be complete!"

All in all, the article doesn't have any errors. Everything it says is true, but it doesn't want to spoil the game so it writes around Malak betraying Revan.

This is because the quote predates the actual Knights of the Old Republic source material.

True, but this works against your point. Per Leland Chee, the material Cory Herndon used to write with was what Lucasfilm sent him (refer to the blue underlined text below). That makes it more reliable than just a random author adding in a random accolade. Also, as I've said many times, Leland Chee "checked the information for grammar and accuracy" twice-over (again meaning the article has no errors), and he viewed the article as among his favorites due to his personal involvement with it. 

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 6424634-9674527593-Lelan

But perhaps more importantly, this source no longer exists because it was removed by Wizards of the Coast and was replaced, as is noted by Cory J. Herndon; the article's author, himself:

This is misleading. This article stayed on the WOTC website until mid 2010 when they removed the whole Star Wars page. That doesn't make those thousands of articles non-canon as all of them had been already added to the Holocron. Same applies for the old Star Wars databanks.

Per Cory, the most recent gameplay stats are correct and the article no longer is:

This is also misleading. The quote comes from a summary passage that is distinct from gameplay statistics, just like in every other sourcebook:

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Kenobi10
Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" C-cano11

Gameplay statistics are S-Canon (per Star Wars Insider) and secondary to written events (per Leland Chee), meaning they cannot override this quote no matter what.

Which, in case you're wondering is clear from the KotOR:CG:

The original WOTC article gave Malak and Kun nearly identical stats, but then included a section at the bottom where they added additional and unique gameplay features for the Star Forge. The Saga edition entries that you posted likewise give Malak and Kun basically identical stats -- the same class level, amount of Force points, and dark side score (note destiny points have nothing to do with Force sensitivity, as Boba Fett has three like Kun and Han Solo has two like Malak) -- but just don't feature an extra section for the Star Forge. I hardly see how that proves anything besides further solidification of Star Forge Malak supremacy. 

Darth Malak's concurrent replacement Wizards of the Coast descriptions make no mention of Exar Kun nor Freedon Nadd:

Why should it? Character summaries change every different sourcebook they are in. For example, notice none of ANH Vader's are the same: 

Spoiler:
Dark Side Sourcebook:

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Clad_i10

Rebellion Era Sourcebook:

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Vader_11

Revised Core Rulebook:

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Vader_12

Saga Edition Core Rulebook:

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Vader_10

An accolade from an older source doesn't need to be consistently repeated in newer sources for it to still hold. Otherwise, every accolade ever would be null.

Yet Bastila Shan gives Revan a good fight:

The combat is "fraught and frantic" because Revan does not want to harm Bastila. The dialogue shown below and the events of the fight make clear Revan is far superior, as he defeats a constantly rejuvenating Bastila three-times over. Bastila even initially believes Revan is tiring but is mistaken. Bastila eventually concedes she is "no match" for Revan and admits she always "felt so helpless before your destiny." Bastila also says she cannot help him fight Malak because his presence may corrupt her again. 

"Here on the Star Forge the power of the dark side is at its strongest. This time you will not defeat me."

[Revan and Bastila fight. Revan wins.]

"No, Revan. It is you who are doomed!" (ABR)

[Revan and Bastila fight. Revan wins.]

"The light side is failing you while the power of the Star Forge re-energizes me. Soon this will all be over."

"I have not faltered, Bastila. You have been misled by the dark side."

"The dark side will always triumph over the light! Malak has assured me of victory! You can't defeat me here on the Star Forge! You can't!"

[Revan and Bastila fight. Revan wins.]

"No, this is not possible! You have rejected the dark side, you are a weak and pathetic servant of the light! How can you still stand against me? Why can't I defeat you?"

"Now you see the dark side is not stronger than the light."

"Yes, I see you speak the truth. I am no match for you."

(Bastila Shan and Revan, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic)

This is consistent with Malak believing Vrook, Vandar, Kavar, or any other Jedi would have died fighting the first wave of the Star Forge war droids, yet said that every war droid, Sith trooper, and Sith apprentice converging on Revan's location "of course" would not be able to stop him. 

"I have news, Lord Malak. About the Jedi."

"Ah, the Jedi. Did my droids pass their test? Did they destroy our enemies?"

"No, Lord Malak. The droids could not stop them."

"Strange. I did not think there were any among the Order who could survive an attack by an army of the Star Forge's battle droids."

"It - it was Revan. Your old master is with the Jedi, here on the Star Forge!"

"Yes, that would explain why the droids failed."

"Revan was always strong in the Force. Very well - sound out all available troops. The apprentices, as well."

"Do you - do you think they can stop Revan, Lord Malak?"

"Of course not! But they will slow Revan down. That will give me the time I need to fully prepare the Star Forge's defenses."


(Darth Malak and Dark Jedi Master, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic)

To do one of those scaling chains: 

Revan in actuality >>> the Infinite Army >>> Malak's perception of Revan >>> all the Star Forge defenses >>> the first wave of the Star Forge defenses >>> any other Jedi.

Darth Nihilus wants Freedon Nadd's power for the Triumvirate, indicating a significant disparity:

That doesn't indicate a significant disparity. Nihilus can desire an additional power source that doesn't eclipse his existing power sources, obviously.

--- --- ---

tl;dr: The Malak quote does not have any errors and is not retconned by newer stats, Revan stomps Bastila, and Nadd is not necessarily above Nihilus. 
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Empty Re: Re: "The Darth Malak Quote"

on December 28th 2019, 9:38 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
this is just me asking, out of lack of knowledge, but which malak is being put above which kun here? are both at their best? is malak in base supposed to be above kun at his prime, or is malak supposed to above kun before the ritual, which is what most reader are familiar with, since we 'dont see what he looks like' post ritual?
LadyKulvax
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Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Empty Re: Re: "The Darth Malak Quote"

on December 28th 2019, 10:25 pm
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Yeah, this thread does nothing but only prove exactly what it is I have been saying. But I'm glad it clearly stirred the hornet's nest up enough to cause you to write this.

Whilst I concede to what I percieved as errors within the text, that's as far as that goes.

1.Whilst Leland Chee states that reference material is provided, this doesn't mean this reference material is specifically coming from LucasFilm but can just as easily be from BioWare as they worked on the game and its earlier drafts of the story. So your contention that this is greater than 'a random author quote' doesn't really stand.

1.b. Can we please not wave around the involvement of Leland Chee as if it's some Word of God rubber stamp by him? This doesn't work for numerous reasons. Leland Chee's possible involvement makes the articles provided no more canonically important just because of that. George Lucas line-editing novels himself didn't suddenly make them G-Canon or anything. Lucas's involvement in The Force Unleashed and his personal rubber stamp calling it an integral part in the story of Darth Vader doesn't suddenly provide it with a greater level of canon immunity than otherwise. In the end it got dumped just as quickly as anything else EU was.

2.Nevertheless, Herndon himself deems that the more up to date sources from WOTC that are LFL-approved to be more relevant than the article he wrote. He's abiding by general canon policy that a new version of a source takes precedent.

3.Cory J. Herndon clearly wrote that article, as you yourself just noted, as an all-in-one story piece. He's clearly writing the story into the statistics to reflect this. His statement here comes as an exact reply to a question about his thought processes on writing that article and why he deemed Malak > Kun. To him, the stats and the description are clearly one in the same as he goes to the effort to write the story into the stats, such as the 'Enhanced Force Powers' part of said article. You're not handwaving what he's said here by appealing to 'the description is canon but the stats aren't'. He clearly takes an indication that more up to date portrayals I.E. stats are capable of, and have the authority to, supercede what he himself wrote.

4.I'm not sure I even see the point you're trying to make with differentiating between Malak's supposed superiority in stats in Herndon's article and other sources through the Star Forge. The Star Forge clearly provided Malak with a permanent amplification to his power that didn't just not exist when he left the thing. And yes, I remain fully aware of the fact that there also exists a nexus on the Forge that would provide a secondary amplification and you'll undoubtedly appeal to Darth Malak stating that it was stupid of Revan to face Malak on the Forge itself to reinforce this. But I don't buy this at all, because what Malak is actually pointing out to is the following:


Darth Malak wrote:"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!"

So it's not the secondary nexus amp of the Star Forge Malak is calling Revan out on for facing him on it, it's actually because the Star Forge can allow him to drain on captured Jedi to replenish himself whenever he wants.

So Malak in Herndon's article and Malak in other RPG sources is the same. Because the primary amp to his power from the SF is permanent. For a stroll down memory lane, you argued against this exact thing with Beni when this quote came to prominence and ironically enough he was right.

5.The point is not that Malak's later descriptions debunk his older one. It's that there's literally nothing that ever claims anything similar about Malak as soon as he actually appears in the games and in those games themselves, you know the actual source material, the tune changes massively.

6.Yeah, nothing, including Bastila is stating Revan stomps Bastila. You're inflating her stating she is no match to mean she gets stomped. A person can be no match and still put up a good fight. Galen Marek gave Sidious a 'desperate' fight in which he screamed in 'lascivious pain' but is stated to be no match for Palpatine afterwards. Bastila is not stomped by Revan, this is in fact demonstratably not the case.

Not only does Bastila on Lehon break through the combined passive Force barriers of Revan, Juhani and Jolee Bindo at once:

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 4420475-6355540190-Krp9Q

Whilst on the Star Forge, she's holding shut one of the big Rakatan doors with 'great power':

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 4420477-2429851518-Krp9o


Knights of the Old Republic wrote:This door is held closed by some great power.

It makes no logical sense that she could hold shut that door whilst facing Revan at the same time. Nor would it make sense that she could knock back him, Juhani and Jolee prior to that fight. If Revan can just stomp her.

But here's the real killer here, even if you do prove that Revan stomps her, all you've done is managed to confirm that he can do what Traya would also do. Traya Sever Force'd three Jedi Masters simultaneously who were individually comparable to Bastila and grew more powerful from them by feeding on them Triumvirate instinctive style.

And again, we know from Traya's personal admittance that Nihilus is a 'magnitude' beyond her in power. Which brings us to the final part of your post.

7.Whilst that individual point doesn't by itself confirm Nadd > Nihilus, all of the other quotes, specifically Traya's very well informed, Avellone-backed estimation, does.

I'm not too interested in a full-blown debate on this because we both know we have better things to do. So I guess it comes down to you. But I have an SS I'm about to get underway and I wouldn't want to split my attention, especially against a debater of your calibre.
DarthAnt66
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Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Empty Re: Re: "The Darth Malak Quote"

on December 30th 2019, 12:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
1.Whilst Leland Chee states that reference material is provided, this doesn't mean this reference material is specifically coming from LucasFilm but can just as easily be from BioWare as they worked on the game and its earlier drafts of the story. So your contention that this is greater than 'a random author quote' doesn't really stand.

Chee says "we" (i.e. Lucasfilm Licensing) provided the reference material, not BioWare. Furthermore, unlike "a random accolade" (which is distinct from a "random author quote," which has no authority whatsoever bar perhaps clarifying intent), Licensing actively fact-checked it twice-over, and Chee partook an active hand in its publication. That distinguishes the article from 'cereal box' accolades or even most sourcebooks, making it uniquely difficult to dismiss with anything except a hard retcon.  

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" We_lic10

1.b. Can we please not wave around the involvement of Leland Chee as if it's some Word of God rubber stamp by him? This doesn't work for numerous reasons. Leland Chee's possible involvement makes the articles provided no more canonically important just because of that. George Lucas line-editing novels himself didn't suddenly make them G-Canon or anything.

Within the Lucasfilm Licensing universe, Leland Chee is the ultimate arbiter of continuity, so much so that he even regulates Lucas' statements. Ergo, any work that featured his personal "involvement" can be taken as extraordinarily solidified within canon. Moreover, this was not just Cory Henrdon taking his own initiative, wanting to write this specific article, then having Lucasfilm Licensing give the thumbs up. This was Licensing wanting this specific article written and being meticulously involved at every stage in the process, including hiring the writer, providing the relevant material, fact-checking it twice, then publishing it. So, Licensing had the authority, the reason, the quick ability (it's less than a page long and almost a 1/5th of it concerns Malak versus Kun), and the opportunity to change the accolade if they disagreed. They didn't.

(Note that while the ROTS adult novel as a whole is not G-Canon, Lucas still considers it a part of his own universe separate from the EU, meaning it holds far greater weight than just the comic, junior novel, etc. And unlike the ROTS adult novel, the Malak article is not a vast 418 page book that is difficult to perfectly align with a vision.)

Lucas's involvement in The Force Unleashed and his personal rubber stamp calling it an integral part in the story of Darth Vader doesn't suddenly provide it with a greater level of canon immunity than otherwise. In the end it got dumped just as quickly as anything else EU was.

Lucas' involvement in TFU mostly centered around the concept phase and was largely minimal, in contrast to Chee and Licensing's active hand here. 

2.Nevertheless, Herndon himself deems that the more up to date sources from WOTC that are LFL-approved to be more relevant than the article he wrote. He's abiding by general canon policy that a new version of a source takes precedent.

(1) There are no "more up to date sources from WOTC." That was the first and last quote published on the subject. If a later source did label Kun "the most powerful ancient Sith Lord," "more powerful than Revan and Malak," etc. then I might agree. But, alas, none did. As I mentioned in my last post, stats are only S-Canon and cannot retcon C-Canon material, regardless of dating, so they're irrelevant here. And the existing stats would not retcon the quote even if they were C-Canon, as I'll explain later down. 

(2) Regardless of point (1), whatever Cory Herndon alone says is irrelevant. He is a freelance writer with unequivocally no canonical weight or ties to Lucasfilm Licensing or any character. While I personally (you don't need to) take limited consideration toward the intent of authors as it relates to a character they exclusively or predominately created and wrote, e.g. Drew Karpyshyn with Revan or Jan Duursema with Quinlan Vos, Herndon has no relationship to Malak nor Kun. We neither have a rule nor reason to care about his intent. Herndon's word is only relevant when/if vetted and published by Licensing. Note that, contrary to popular belief, "that a new version of a source takes precedent" is actually explicitly not a part of continuity policy. Rather, "Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is correct." Thus, I would argue even if Kun had a "the most powerful ancient Sith Lord" or "more powerful than Revan and Malak" quote, the Malak article quote still might take precedent given how pervasive Lucasfilm Licensing's (i.e. the "internal group that makes the final determination") hand was in its creation.

3.Cory J. Herndon clearly wrote that article, as you yourself just noted, as an all-in-one story piece. He's clearly writing the story into the statistics to reflect this. His statement here comes as an exact reply to a question about his thought processes on writing that article and why he deemed Malak > Kun. To him, the stats and the description are clearly one in the same as he goes to the effort to write the story into the stats, such as the 'Enhanced Force Powers' part of said article. You're not handwaving what he's said here by appealing to 'the description is canon but the stats aren't'. He clearly takes an indication that more up to date portrayals I.E. stats are capable of, and have the authority to, supercede what he himself wrote.

Again, the appeal to Herndon's intent (which is what this is, as highlighted in red text) doesn't work. If I may break down what you said here more succinctly to better lay ou my issues (and feel free to correct me if I'm misrepresenting you): "Herndon wrote the article and the stats to be reflective of one-another. Since the stats have changed in later works, and Herndon said to refer to later works over his, the article likewise no longer holds."

Blue text: Everything else aside, as I said, this is an appeal to Herndon's intent. Herndon intending the article and stats to be consistent are irrelevant to the actual policies that control them. Herndon could have wrote the Malak quote then had his stats be far, far beneath's Kun and that wouldn't change the quote's canonical status.

Green text: Addressed in my point (2) response to your previous quote (i.e. "Regardless of point (1), whatever Cory Herndon...").

Purple text: The article's canonical status is independent of Herndon's intent. The breaking of Herndon's intent doesn't break the article. 

Red text: If anyone is just skimming this, THIS PART IS IMPORTANT. This will also cover address @LadyKulvax's point (4.), quoted below under spoiler tags. 

Spoiler:

4.I'm not sure I even see the point you're trying to make with differentiating between Malak's supposed superiority in stats in Herndon's article and other sources through the Star Forge. The Star Forge clearly provided Malak with a permanent amplification to his power that didn't just not exist when he left the thing. And yes, I remain fully aware of the fact that there also exists a nexus on the Forge that would provide a secondary amplification and you'll undoubtedly appeal to Darth Malak stating that it was stupid of Revan to face Malak on the Forge itself to reinforce this. But I don't buy this at all, because what Malak is actually pointing out to is the following:

So it's not the secondary nexus amp of the Star Forge Malak is calling Revan out on for facing him on it, it's actually because the Star Forge can allow him to drain on captured Jedi to replenish himself whenever he wants.

So Malak in Herndon's article and Malak in other RPG sources is the same. Because the primary amp to his power from the SF is permanent. For a stroll down memory lane, you argued against this exact thing with Beni when this quote came to prominence and ironically enough he was right.

(Cont.) THIS PART IS STILL IMPORTANT. Herndon actually gave Malak and Kun nearly identical stats. Both have a class level 20, a challenge code of H, and comparably potent Force powers. However, Herndon also gave Malak a trait called "enhanced Force powers," which the article clarifies: "Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered ... he gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills." These bonus stats, which give Malak three additional Force powers and a bunch of "points" to super buff up his existing Force powers, are NOT already built in. They would be added per the player's discretion (e.g. a player can decide to give Malak "Bolt of Hatred", "Dark Side Web," and "Transfer Essence," then add all 24 bonus points to "Force Fear" to make Malak's telepathy insane). All-in-all, the stats reflect Malak before being amped by the Star Forge, then the player adds the stats to get 'Star Forge Malak.' 

(Cont.) THIS PART IS STILL IMPORTANT. The 2006 Malak stat card copy-and-pastes Herndon's same stats but does not include the "enhanced Force powers" trait. Since the "enhanced Force powers" trait is what converted 'base Malak' to 'Star Forge Malak', the 2006 stats would essentially be Malak prior to discovering the Star Forge. Same for the 2008 Malak stat card. While the reasoning why is irrelevant, this switch was likely because 'Star Forge Malak' was so good he basically broke the game.

tl;dr: The stats have 'base Malak' ~ Kun and 'Star Forge Malak' >> Kun, so the Malak quote stands even if stats could override it (which they cannot since they are S-Canon).

5.The point is not that Malak's later descriptions debunk his older one. It's that there's literally nothing that ever claims anything similar about Malak as soon as he actually appears in the games and in those games themselves, you know the actual source material, the tune changes massively.

My response to that would still be the same: You don't need a quote to be repeatedly affirmed for it to remain canonical. I would also disagree that KOTOR doesn't insinuate Revan and Malak aren't beyond Kun anyway (I would say the Jedi Council believes so), but that's best to discuss after everything else.

6.Yeah, nothing, including Bastila is stating Revan stomps Bastila. You're inflating her stating she is no match to mean she gets stomped. A person can be no match and still put up a good fight. Galen Marek gave Sidious a 'desperate' fight in which he screamed in 'lascivious pain' but is stated to be no match for Palpatine afterwards. Bastila is not stomped by Revan, this is in fact demonstratably not the case.

Revan beat Bastila multiple-times in a row without tiring (as Bastila mocked Revan for tiring, then Revan said the dark side is deceiving her, and Bastila later conceded). Revan then went on to destroy the Infinite Army (which Malak believed to be a far, far greater threat than Bastila), and then Malak himself (Bastila said Malak's mere "dark presence" might "overwhelm" and re-corrupt her). If they were close, Revan would be stomped by the Infinite Army or Malak. Again, the "fraught" (i.e. anxiety-provoking) and "frantic" (i.e. wild and filled with emotion) description is because Revan loves her and doesn't want to hurt her, making the duel uniquely intense and difficult. 

Also, as I said last time and you forgot to respond to, Malak noted the first wave of the Star Forge droids could defeat any other Jedi alive yet said every wave (plus armies of Sith) converging on Revan "of course" would not stop him. And Malak had an explicitly lower opinion of Revan than actuality (as Malak later admited "you are stronger than I thought" after Revan defeated the Infinite Army)! So, this argument of Bastila ~ Revan ~ Vrook << Kreia << Kun doesn't hold anyway.

Not only does Bastila on Lehon break through the combined passive Force barriers of Revan, Juhani and Jolee Bindo at once:

None of the Jedi want to harm Bastila. Repulsing them back a few feet then running away is a far inferior gauge than all the above listed facts. 

Whilst on the Star Forge, she's holding shut one of the big Rakatan doors with 'great power': It makes no logical sense that she could hold shut that door whilst facing Revan at the same time.

Agreed, because she doesn't. It's either a once-and-done thing and/or the Star Forge itself is doing it, as a bunch of random doors across the Star Forge are "held together by some great power," including the ones where Revan fights Malak and one by three random and nameless dark Jedi that Revan slaughters. 

But here's the real killer here, even if you do prove that Revan stomps her, all you've done is managed to confirm that he can do what Traya would also do. Traya Sever Force'd three Jedi Masters simultaneously who were individually comparable to Bastila and grew more powerful from them by feeding on them Triumvirate instinctive style.

And again, we know from Traya's personal admittance that Nihilus is a 'magnitude' beyond her in power. Which brings us to the final part of your post.

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 39523600

The reason we're discussing this is because you proposed 'Bastila ~ Revan ~ Vrook << Kreia << Kun'. I have no responsibility to "prove" Revan is more powerful than Kreia; rather it's your job to prove why Bastila and Vrook are comparable with Revan. If you can't make that connection, the Malak quote holds. 

7.Whilst that individual point doesn't by itself confirm Nadd > Nihilus, all of the other quotes, specifically Traya's very well informed, Avellone-backed estimation, does.

A debatable vague impression of 'Nadd > Nihilus', taken from a character who never met an ancient Sith, may not even be referring to Nadd, and thinks Revan is Jesus Christ anyway, which then needs extensive super suspect scaling to link Kun to Malak, isn't beating a pen-to-paper statement that flat out says 'Malak > Kun'.

I'm not too interested in a full-blown debate on this because we both know we have better things to do. So I guess it comes down to you. But I have an SS I'm about to get underway and I wouldn't want to split my attention, especially against a debater of your calibre.

No worries. This isn't an official debate or anything, so there's no rush to respond or anything.
LadyKulvax
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Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Empty Re: Re: "The Darth Malak Quote"

on February 9th 2020, 12:53 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I've had an extremely difficult past few months and I apologise for this, but I'll be replying forthwith.
DarthAnt66
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Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Empty Re: Re: "The Darth Malak Quote"

on February 9th 2020, 2:11 am
No worries, no rush. Sorry you've been having some troubles. I'm glad to see you're back. Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 1289255181
LadyKulvax
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Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Empty Re: Re: "The Darth Malak Quote"

on February 9th 2020, 2:40 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
1.Whilst Leland Chee states that reference material is provided, this doesn't mean this reference material is specifically coming from LucasFilm but can just as easily be from BioWare as they worked on the game and its earlier drafts of the story. So your contention that this is greater than 'a random author quote' doesn't really stand.

Chee says "we" (i.e. Lucasfilm Licensing) provided the reference material, not BioWare. Furthermore, unlike "a random accolade" (which is distinct from a "random author quote," which has no authority whatsoever bar perhaps clarifying intent), Licensing actively fact-checked it twice-over, and Chee partook an active hand in its publication. That distinguishes the article from 'cereal box' accolades or even most sourcebooks, making it uniquely difficult to dismiss with anything except a hard retcon.  

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" We_lic10

You're taking this too literally, Chee only says that they provided Cory with information on what he was writing about. There's no reason to believe this was anything more than what Bioware themselves wrote when making the game themselves. You asserted that Lucasfilm themselves giving Cory this unspecified information somewhat makes this even more canonical but in reality you only made an assumption on what Chee said as if it was the only possibility.

1.b. Can we please not wave around the involvement of Leland Chee as if it's some Word of God rubber stamp by him? This doesn't work for numerous reasons. Leland Chee's possible involvement makes the articles provided no more canonically important just because of that. George Lucas line-editing novels himself didn't suddenly make them G-Canon or anything.

Within the Lucasfilm Licensing universe, Leland Chee is the ultimate arbiter of continuity, so much so that he even regulates Lucas' statements. Ergo, any work that featured his personal "involvement" can be taken as extraordinarily solidified within canon. Moreover, this was not just Cory Henrdon taking his own initiative, wanting to write this specific article, then having Lucasfilm Licensing give the thumbs up. This was Licensing wanting this specific article written and being meticulously involved at every stage in the process, including hiring the writer, providing the relevant material, fact-checking it twice, then publishing it. So, Licensing had the authority, the reason, the quick ability (it's less than a page long and almost a 1/5th of it concerns Malak versus Kun), and the opportunity to change the accolade if they disagreed. They didn't.

And I can list a whole load of other works, such as Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi getting similar treatment and direct involvement with Lucas himself. Yet no one until now has given either of said projects more supposed canonicity due to that involvement. In fact, this kind of involvement is probably far more common than most people would assume. SWTOR, as one example, has been getting specific Disney story group involvement ever since to make sure that what they do is in line with what the story group wants. Are we going to give SWTOR a shiny new participation medal now?

No offense, but I feel like you've kind of just made this up as a reason why people should give this particular quote more infallibility than anything else.

Lucas's involvement in The Force Unleashed and his personal rubber stamp calling it an integral part in the story of Darth Vader doesn't suddenly provide it with a greater level of canon immunity than otherwise. In the end it got dumped just as quickly as anything else EU was.

Lucas' involvement in TFU mostly centered around the concept phase and was largely minimal, in contrast to Chee and Licensing's active hand here.

Actually no, he didn't just get involved in a concept. He was the concept. The whole idea of a secret apprentice was him. They had a plethora of different ideas until Lucas provided his vision. He went out of the way later to present the game himself not unlike how he presented his own saga.

2.Nevertheless, Herndon himself deems that the more up to date sources from WOTC that are LFL-approved to be more relevant than the article he wrote. He's abiding by general canon policy that a new version of a source takes precedent.

(1) There are no "more up to date sources from WOTC." That was the first and last quote published on the subject. If a later source did label Kun "the most powerful ancient Sith Lord," "more powerful than Revan and Malak," etc. then I might agree. But, alas, none did. As I mentioned in my last post, stats are only S-Canon and cannot retcon C-Canon material, regardless of dating, so they're irrelevant here. And the existing stats would not retcon the quote even if they were C-Canon, as I'll explain later down. 

Instead of taking my argument as a whole, you're taking it as its parts. Which was never the point. But Cory J. Herndon is specifically responsible for this quote in the first place, he deems the stats not to be S-canon. Quite frankly, with all due respect, I don't care what your stance on the Canon levels are. I care about what Herndon himself states. As you yourself stated repeatedly, Chee and Lucasfilm Licensing had specific involvement in the entire article and given Cory obviously worked with them all, I wouldn't say it's too much of a stretch to assert that he given his experience working with them knows how much stat lines matter in these cases. Given what he states, statistics do indeed matter and in fact have the specific ability to contest a character's strength.

(2) Regardless of point (1), whatever Cory Herndon alone says is irrelevant. He is a freelance writer with unequivocally no canonical weight or ties to Lucasfilm Licensing or any character. While I personally (you don't need to) take limited consideration toward the intent of authors as it relates to a character they exclusively or predominately created and wrote, e.g. Drew Karpyshyn with Revan or Jan Duursema with Quinlan Vos, Herndon has no relationship to Malak nor Kun. We neither have a rule nor reason to care about his intent. Herndon's word is only relevant when/if vetted and published by Licensing. Note that, contrary to popular belief, "that a new version of a source takes precedent" is actually explicitly not a part of continuity policy. Rather, "Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is correct." Thus, I would argue even if Kun had a "the most powerful ancient Sith Lord" or "more powerful than Revan and Malak" quote, the Malak article quote still might take precedent given how pervasive Lucasfilm Licensing's (i.e. the "internal group that makes the final determination") hand was in its creation.

I kind of already addressed both of these points prior.

3.Cory J. Herndon clearly wrote that article, as you yourself just noted, as an all-in-one story piece. He's clearly writing the story into the statistics to reflect this. His statement here comes as an exact reply to a question about his thought processes on writing that article and why he deemed Malak > Kun. To him, the stats and the description are clearly one in the same as he goes to the effort to write the story into the stats, such as the 'Enhanced Force Powers' part of said article. You're not handwaving what he's said here by appealing to 'the description is canon but the stats aren't'. He clearly takes an indication that more up to date portrayals I.E. stats are capable of, and have the authority to, supercede what he himself wrote.

Again, the appeal to Herndon's intent (which is what this is, as highlighted in red text) doesn't work. If I may break down what you said here more succinctly to better lay ou my issues (and feel free to correct me if I'm misrepresenting you): "Herndon wrote the article and the stats to be reflective of one-another. Since the stats have changed in later works, and Herndon said to refer to later works over his, the article likewise no longer holds."

Blue text: Everything else aside, as I said, this is an appeal to Herndon's intent. Herndon intending the article and stats to be consistent are irrelevant to the actual policies that control them. Herndon could have wrote the Malak quote then had his stats be far, far beneath's Kun and that wouldn't change the quote's canonical status.

Green text: Addressed in my point (2) response to your previous quote (i.e. "Regardless of point (1), whatever Cory Herndon...").

Purple text: The article's canonical status is independent of Herndon's intent. The breaking of Herndon's intent doesn't break the article. 

Red text: If anyone is just skimming this, THIS PART IS IMPORTANT. This will also cover address @LadyKulvax's point (4.), quoted below under spoiler tags.

Yeah, except as I've stated. By appealing to the direct involvement of Chee and Lucasfilm Licensing kinda shot yourself in the foot here. He worked closely with them, to provide them with a satisfactory article. At no point are we told that this was only involvement in the description part of the article. He has a lot of experience with those people and their stances on said matter. He knows exactly how much weight they themselves would put on statistics and clearly had the impression that statistics can indeed have such an effect on a character's standing.

Given that we have Chee himself stating that we can use statistics as a measure, this sounds rather consistent, now that I think about it, with what Herndon has asserted.

But again, you're taking my argument at the sum of its parts instead of the whole.

Spoiler:

4.I'm not sure I even see the point you're trying to make with differentiating between Malak's supposed superiority in stats in Herndon's article and other sources through the Star Forge. The Star Forge clearly provided Malak with a permanent amplification to his power that didn't just not exist when he left the thing. And yes, I remain fully aware of the fact that there also exists a nexus on the Forge that would provide a secondary amplification and you'll undoubtedly appeal to Darth Malak stating that it was stupid of Revan to face Malak on the Forge itself to reinforce this. But I don't buy this at all, because what Malak is actually pointing out to is the following:

So it's not the secondary nexus amp of the Star Forge Malak is calling Revan out on for facing him on it, it's actually because the Star Forge can allow him to drain on captured Jedi to replenish himself whenever he wants.

So Malak in Herndon's article and Malak in other RPG sources is the same. Because the primary amp to his power from the SF is permanent. For a stroll down memory lane, you argued against this exact thing with Beni when this quote came to prominence and ironically enough he was right.

(Cont.) THIS PART IS STILL IMPORTANT. Herndon actually gave Malak and Kun nearly identical stats. Both have a class level 20, a challenge code of H, and comparably potent Force powers. However, Herndon also gave Malak a trait called "enhanced Force powers," which the article clarifies: "Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered ... he gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills." These bonus stats, which give Malak three additional Force powers and a bunch of "points" to super buff up his existing Force powers, are NOT already built in. They would be added per the player's discretion (e.g. a player can decide to give Malak "Bolt of Hatred", "Dark Side Web," and "Transfer Essence," then add all 24 bonus points to "Force Fear" to make Malak's telepathy insane). All-in-all, the stats reflect Malak before being amped by the Star Forge, then the player adds the stats to get 'Star Forge Malak.' 

(Cont.) THIS PART IS STILL IMPORTANT. The 2006 Malak stat card copy-and-pastes Herndon's same stats but does not include the "enhanced Force powers" trait. Since the "enhanced Force powers" trait is what converted 'base Malak' to 'Star Forge Malak', the 2006 stats would essentially be Malak prior to discovering the Star Forge. Same for the 2008 Malak stat card. While the reasoning why is irrelevant, this switch was likely because 'Star Forge Malak' was so good he basically broke the game.

tl;dr: The stats have 'base Malak' ~ Kun and 'Star Forge Malak' >> Kun, so the Malak quote stands even if stats could override it (which they cannot since they are S-Canon).

Um, the descriptions of Malak in both the 2006 and 2008 iterations clearly shows that this is definitely Malak as of after discovering the Star Forge. It makes no sense that it would be prior to this.

Again, your problem is that Malak is always permanently amped by the Star Forge. Or rather his growth in power is permanently increased to a nigh--exponential rate by it. So trying to appeal to the added stats doesn't really work. And again, Malak recieving extra Force powers and added skill points to those Force powers in no way means he'd be far more powerful than Exar Kun in terms of stats regardless.

5.The point is not that Malak's later descriptions debunk his older one. It's that there's literally nothing that ever claims anything similar about Malak as soon as he actually appears in the games and in those games themselves, you know the actual source material, the tune changes massively.

My response to that would still be the same: You don't need a quote to be repeatedly affirmed for it to remain canonical. I would also disagree that KOTOR doesn't insinuate Revan and Malak aren't beyond Kun anyway (I would say the Jedi Council believes so), but that's best to discuss after everything else.

No, but when the actual KotOR source material makes almost exactly the opposite assertions regarding Malak and his placement next to the ancients, you're gonna need something more than an article to hold up to the absolutely gargantuan disparity in literally everything between the two.

Oh and the Jedi Council never even met Exar Kun, nor taught him. Vodo Siosk Baas taught Kun, Sylvar and Crado and he was the Watchman of Dantooine at the time. The Enclave Council never even existed at that time. The reformations the Jedi Order underwent, such as Dantooine's Enclave and Council happened as a direct reply to what happened in the Kun war. So there's literally no reason to think they're referencing Exar Kun in any statement they make concerning Revan or Malak's power.

6.Yeah, nothing, including Bastila is stating Revan stomps Bastila. You're inflating her stating she is no match to mean she gets stomped. A person can be no match and still put up a good fight. Galen Marek gave Sidious a 'desperate' fight in which he screamed in 'lascivious pain' but is stated to be no match for Palpatine afterwards. Bastila is not stomped by Revan, this is in fact demonstratably not the case.

Revan beat Bastila multiple-times in a row without tiring (as Bastila mocked Revan for tiring, then Revan said the dark side is deceiving her, and Bastila later conceded). Revan then went on to destroy the Infinite Army (which Malak believed to be a far, far greater threat than Bastila), and then Malak himself (Bastila said Malak's mere "dark presence" might "overwhelm" and re-corrupt her). If they were close, Revan would be stomped by the Infinite Army or Malak. Again, the "fraught" (i.e. anxiety-provoking) and "frantic" (i.e. wild and filled with emotion) description is because Revan loves her and doesn't want to hurt her, making the duel uniquely intense and difficult.

Yes and Meetra defeats Traya multiple times in the Trayus Core but Traya's confirmed to be more powerful at that time. You can't use multiple defeats as a measure for how a character performs in the KotOR games. Revan's stamina is truly impressive, yes. But I wouldn't go around using Meetra defeating multiple Sith Masters, Sion and then Traya to then claim she straight up stomped an entire legion of what were essentially very high-level Sith who can scale far above the average PT Jedi then equating that with Meetra's power >> a legion of said Sith. Force reserves are a thing.

Also, as I said last time and you forgot to respond to, Malak noted the first wave of the Star Forge droids could defeat any other Jedi alive yet said every wave (plus armies of Sith) converging on Revan "of course" would not stop him. And Malak had an explicitly lower opinion of Revan than actuality (as Malak later admited "you are stronger than I thought" after Revan defeated the Infinite Army)! So, this argument of Bastila ~ Revan ~ Vrook << Kreia << Kun doesn't hold anyway.

My argument doesn't hold because Malak, who himself admits he was deluded, doesn't think any Jedi left alive could get through the infinite army? When Malak attacked Dantooine prior and thought he'd killed the Jedi Council? I'm sure you see the problem here.

Not only does Bastila on Lehon break through the combined passive Force barriers of Revan, Juhani and Jolee Bindo at once:

None of the Jedi want to harm Bastila. Repulsing them back a few feet then running away is a far inferior gauge than all the above listed facts.

Trying to take Bastila alive means they can't defend themselves from her Force attacks? She didn't just knock them back a few feet either.

A far inferior gauge by itself, but luckily my argument isn't based on that one feat. As you well know.

Whilst on the Star Forge, she's holding shut one of the big Rakatan doors with 'great power': It makes no logical sense that she could hold shut that door whilst facing Revan at the same time.

Agreed, because she doesn't. It's either a once-and-done thing and/or the Star Forge itself is doing it, as a bunch of random doors across the Star Forge are "held together by some great power," including the ones where Revan fights Malak and one by three random and nameless dark Jedi that Revan slaughters.

It's pretty clearly the enemy you fight doing this, so no, it isn't the Star Forge. Because they open when you beat them. But nice feat for the three strongest Sith in the entire Empire after Bastila herself, though. Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 1289255181

But here's the real killer here, even if you do prove that Revan stomps her, all you've done is managed to confirm that he can do what Traya would also do. Traya Sever Force'd three Jedi Masters simultaneously who were individually comparable to Bastila and grew more powerful from them by feeding on them Triumvirate instinctive style.

And again, we know from Traya's personal admittance that Nihilus is a 'magnitude' beyond her in power. Which brings us to the final part of your post.

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 39523600

The reason we're discussing this is because you proposed 'Bastila ~ Revan ~ Vrook << Kreia << Kun'. I have no responsibility to "prove" Revan is more powerful than Kreia; rather it's your job to prove why Bastila and Vrook are comparable with Revan. If you can't make that connection, the Malak quote holds.

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" 2864379292

Um, no. Traya literally one-shotted all three (four counting Lonna Vash) Jedi Masters simultaneously and absorbed their power. She's a mile beyond Bastila. That's not disputable. So Revan stomping Bastila, if you can unequivocally prove so, only puts him somewhere near Traya. She herself admits that Nihilus is a magnitude of power beyond her. Mind you, this is her measure of Nihilus' power as of him severing and draining her power. Not his full might by the point of Nihilus resurrecting Freedon Nadd.

7.Whilst that individual point doesn't by itself confirm Nadd > Nihilus, all of the other quotes, specifically Traya's very well informed, Avellone-backed estimation, does.

A debatable vague impression of 'Nadd > Nihilus', taken from a character who never met an ancient Sith, may not even be referring to Nadd, and thinks Revan is Jesus Christ anyway, which then needs extensive super suspect scaling to link Kun to Malak, isn't beating a pen-to-paper statement that flat out says 'Malak > Kun'.

Oh please, we're told and are given a concrete reason to believe, that Kreia has a solid measure of the power of the ancient Sith due to her studying of a trove of ancient Sith holocrons and a whole lot more. And that these estimations are correct. This along with Nihilus' depiction next to Nadd and other ancients within the game is more than enough to deduct what the actual KotOR source material shows, instead of just an article that literally advertises the KotOR game, not unlike a publisher's blurb.

And The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia specifically depicts that the power of the dark side at this time was getting worse, due to the events taking place on Dxun, rather than better, as they should've been with Malak's death and the Star Forge's destruction if either of those were indeed 'far greater' than Nadd or Nihilus.

Re: "The Darth Malak Quote" Screen36

I'm not too interested in a full-blown debate on this because we both know we have better things to do. So I guess it comes down to you. But I have an SS I'm about to get underway and I wouldn't want to split my attention, especially against a debater of your calibre.

No worries. This isn't an official debate or anything, so there's no rush to respond or anything.

Appreciated.
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