Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

This is the default thread for all discussion relating to this fight. Any updated opinions or new insights should be posted here. No other Darth Sidious Vs Valkorion threads should be made to avoid cluttering the forum with multiple similar threads.

Some potential starting points of discussion:

1. Tenebrae at 13 years of age, just before meeting Marka Ragnos.
   
2. Lord Vitiate at 113 years of age, prior to consuming Medriaas.
   
3. The Sith Emperor during The Old Republic: Revan.
   
4. The Sith Emperor during Act II of The Old Republic, after Revan is released but prior to being weakened.
   
5. Emperor Valkorion during Chapter 1 of The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire, prior to his death.
   

VS.

1. Sheev during Part 1 of Darth Plagueis, at 17 years of age.
   
2. Darth Sidious during Part 2 of Darth Plagueis, at 29 years of age.
   
3. Darth Sidious during The Phantom Menace, prior to killing his Master.
   
4. Darth Sidious during Revenge of the Sith.
   
5. Emperor Palpatine during The Force Unleashed.
   
6. Emperor Palpatine during Return of the Jedi.
   
7. The Reborn Emperor during Dark Empire.
   

Personally, I'm unsure as to where I hold the earlier iterations of Palpatine before the timeframe of the films. While obviously a prodigy, he doesn't really have lots of great feats to mark him as a high tier just yet. It's during The Phantom Menace where he has made a huge leap. Sidious himself remarked that his power had increased "tenfold" during his apprenticeship under Plagueis, which didn't truly begin until 52 BBY. Given his general proximity to his Master at that time, gut instinct tells me he has a good shot at defeating any incarnation of Valkorion even at that point, although my thoughts on that aren't finalized. After his murder of Plagueis and the resultant apotheosis, though, he should definitely be the more powerful of the two.

Early versions of Tenebrae all lose to any version of Sidious RotS or after, some fall to TPM as well. Later Tenebrae, Valkorion specifically, caps out around TFU Sidious imo.

Damn, your opinion of Valkorion appears to have regressed, DB. What made you change your perspective?

When Valkorion "stops time", is he just doing that in the Outlander's head?

Anakin before AotC learns an ability that slows his perception of time IIRC, maybe Valkorion does something similar?

In which case, the power isn't impressive at all.

Thoughts?

Prime Tenebrae stands a bit under RotJ Sidious. It is difficult to argue that he falls to TPM Sidious, however.

QuiGonDies wrote:When Valkorion "stops time", is he just doing that in the Outlander's head?

Anakin before AotC learns an ability that slows his perception of time IIRC, maybe Valkorion does something similar?

In which case, the power isn't impressive at all.

Thoughts?

It can't just be in the Outlander's head, because Vaylin "breaks through" it in KOTET Chapter 3.

QuiGonDies wrote:When Valkorion "stops time", is he just doing that in the Outlander's head?

Anakin before AotC learns an ability that slows his perception of time IIRC, maybe Valkorion does something similar?

In which case, the power isn't impressive at all.

Thoughts?

The writers have stated he's just influencing the Outlander's perception. However, Vaylin was able to break free of it, and I generally don't put much stock into author opinions anyway, so I'd argue in this case it's actually bona fide time manipulation.

Seems like there could be other explanations than jumping straight to Valkorion literally freezing time. Maybe Vaylin stopped Valkorion controlling their perceptions?

I'm not necessarily taking that stance, I'm not a TOR expert, just doesn't seem logical to jump to conclusions, especially since the Devs don't agree with that conclusion, and the matter is open to legitimate interpretation.

That doesn't work though because it physically immobilizes Vaylin. There really is no alternative interpretation.

If Valkorion can control people's perception of time, aka manipulating their brains, what's to say he can't do the same for their motor functions? Make them think they can't move? Make his thoughts their reality? Unless someone's willpower is strong enough to overpower it, like unchained Vaylin?

@QuiGonDies: To clarify, are you suggesting that Valkorion changes the time perception and motor functions of everyone in the room?

Yeah, because Koth stops moving too.

That is the suggestion, but the idea is contradicted by a different instance. Valkorion and the Outlander are walking while time is frozen, as when time resumes the other characters are the in the same position and Outlander and Valk have moved ahead of them. This goes beyond perception and motor function manipulation.

Dw, it got explained to me.

Forgot about that part @DarthSkywalker0.

Like I said, I'm a TOR noob.

Valkorion probably beats TFU Palps, but comes up short to ROTJ/DE Palps. Both versions Sith Emperor comes up a little bit shorter than ROTS Sids(good fight though).

After reviewing the scene again, there is moving electricity in the background. So he doesn't outright stop time, but slows it down to a significant degree, which is congruent with his statement in Chapter 4 of Knights of the Fallen Empire: "Time has not stopped."

The Divine Source wrote:Damn, your opinion of Valkorion appears to have regressed, DB. What made you change your perspective?

Mostly I've just raised RotJ and DE Sidious. Changed my stance on it a little while back, after Ant and I were talking about a convo that happened in Hangouts or Discord, can't remember which, but it ended with me raising Sidious.

@darthbane77

I'm curious: what points specifically made you raise the Emperor so far beyond his ancient counterpart?

Valkorion's scaling off of his own Ziost system feat, is probably the best feat in Star Wars Legends bar the Ones, etc.

"lady"





The deception is strong in this one.

KOTFE Valkorion~TFU Sheev.

TOR Vitiate~TPM Sheev.

Novel Vitiate~TPM Sidious.

SWTOR Vitiate~ROTS Sidious

Valkorion~ROTJ Sidious

DE>Any iteration of Valkorion.

Azronger wrote:@darthbane77

I'm curious: what points specifically made you raise the Emperor so far beyond his ancient counterpart?

@Azronger

Mostly the stuff about how Sidious possesses so much power that the only way he can even come close to expressing it is via his storms. Ant also convinced me about something along the lines of Sidious not being able to, in combat, use more than the power he wielded in RotS because it'd tear him apart, or something to that effect. All because of Sidious manipulating his own potential many times over. I just don't think Valkorion is quite THAT powerful.

Funny, because a huge deal is made out of Sidious becoming a Nexus that warps space and is more energy than being. Yet Vitiate had that the moment the Ritual of Nathema ended.