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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Level Two

Darth Vader's placement Empty Darth Vader's placement

on December 18th 2019, 12:48 am
I like making these blogs to be honest, so i thought making a follow up one. It just me reiterating some of the quotes and feats, how they relate to each other, and simpler things like that. Ill try to divided it into different categories, going along with time, chronologically. Ill try to address everything as well as i can, so im sorry if i miss something, or misinterpret a quote, or if i get a wrong timeframe. 


POWER:

0 BBY- a weird time to start, but this is actually to support some of my later statements and claims. Darth Vader claims that his power grows momentarily.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833843-dw8.jpg
 

This is likely flowery lingo, a statement to how his powers grow as time passes, and maybe that they will never stop. This simply means that a gap in power between Vader in later years may be in fact quite big. Some of this is seen before- Vader's growth between The Force Unleashed 1 and 2 is actually quite big and obvious. Then, a year or so later (maybe less), Vader is stated to have been more powerful than ever, including his Force Unleashed 2 incarnation. 

Vader survived, but not unscarred- his shattered body encased in life-supporting armor and a breath mask. in spite of these handicaps, Vader thrived. In fact, he found a way to turn these to his advantage. He had his breath mask crafted into a sinister black helmet and, donning a block cloak over his black armor, he became a figure out of nightmare. From the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger. - Lightsaber Dueling Pack: Darth Vader


He then gains another bigger growth in power from A New Hope to The Empire Strikes Back. It seems to be a trend that Vader always gains a growth in power after some sort of mental stress is afflicted upon him. 

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. - Insider #62


When the Death Star exploded, it was believed that Vader had been lost to the void. But he returned, more powerful than before, and was given command of the fleet assigned to track down Skywalker and the Rebel fleet. - Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope


The more powerful figures may often be defeated but not slain. They may flee, like Darth Vader after the destruction of the Death Star, to return more powerful on another day. - Gamer 5


After a single with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. - https://www.writeurl.com/text/hvzw6ml3qvx978tdu09u/9dvm40pxnuot23wxuvna


Later, at the time of his death, we then have other accolades stating that Vader is now at his peak in Return Of The Jedi.

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. - Return Of The Jedi


More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star. - Darth Vader Return Of Anakin Skywalker



Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! - Return of the Jedi Comic


I actually decided to start from here simply to how far above Vader in his later years is from his first two years in his career. The gap in time between 18 BBY to TFU is that is of, more or less, 17 years. Vader in less than a year grew enough in power to possibly have, at least, a hard win against his previous self. He had 17 years to grow from 18 BBY to TFU. That might be a humongous growth in power. That doenst sound like much, but Vader by that point in time was actually already incredibly powerful. There is a common misconception that Sidious's growth in power is faster and greater than that of Vader's, but that is actually false- they grew equally. Vader could not surpass Sidious because every time he grew stronger, Sidious did the same. This does not mean that Vader cant reach Sidious' powers, it means that he cannot surpass Sidious if Sidious just grows stronger every time he tries to do so. Sidious in fact states that Vader would have reached his current powers (19 BBY, so Revenge Of The Sith era) given enough, and he says it in a way that makes it seem to be not too far off. He actually says that he should be careful and diligent with his training, since if he is not, Vader would surpass and simply kill him. He says 'a risk to his mastery', which may mean nothing more than a simple problem he may need to face, later in time. But Sidious is power hungry and obsessed. He does not take orders, he gives them. Him being supreme leader of the galaxy and the strongest sith ever, the greatest user of the dark side, might actually have been his greatest dream. Him stating that Vader would become a threat to such a thing is actually a huge deal, since the threat he poses is towards everything Sidious built and holds dear to his person. He is taking Vader very seriously here. He knows that Vader would reach a point that he could no longer could up with, unless, of course, if Sidious too kept growing power. 

More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his Mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking–the power of life over death. There would be no need to fear Vader. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Ill list some of Vader's best accolades from 19-18 BBY here, just to show far above TFU+ Vader is from his 19-18 BBY incarnation.


19 BBY-


Lucas' statement about Vader having 80% of Sidious' power comes from a 2005 interview, in which he uses the words "at this point" and "now" referring to Vader at the end of ROTS. This is actually more speculation than anything, but it might mean that the difference in power between Vader and Sidious has never actually been too huge. I personally do take this statement as exact, as Sidious is consistently portrayed as being 2 or more times stronger than Vader, but it does show that Vader may still be in the 30% or higher, when talking about Sidious' power (the only time wherein this may be case, in my opinion, may be in during ROTJ, in which Vader uses all of his powers, at his max, to save Luke. I think about that as Vader's 'max output'. He can pull it off, but its like being in the zone and using adrenaline at the same time- not easy at all to do).

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than. - him.http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2005/02/star-wars-george-lucas-story


Vader has immeasurable power. I actually tried looking for people that share an accolade of this kind, and yet again, only Vitiate and Sidious seem to have this. I could be wrong of course, so if i am, just tell me.

As his control over the dark side deepened, Vader grew increasingly contemptuous of his previous life as a mere student. The Dark Lord possessed immeasurable power, and unquestionable authority. - Anakin Skywalker: The Story Of Darth Vader



One of the strongest beings in the galaxy. There is an obvious implication here that Vader is among the strongest beings alive, and not just in the top 30, but more like the top 10, possibly even lower numbers. Obi Wan (a man who could fight Anakin at the height of his powers, and may actually have been just as skilled after his 'mental release'. Possibly a Dooku level force user after said amp as well), Sidious (the strongest sith ever, maybe the strongest mortal dark sider), Exar Kun's spirit, Gethzerion (she was later called one of Sidious' biggest threats, and dangerous enough that he trapped her in her planet), Darth Maul (i doubt i need to explain this one), Kar Vastor, among other beings.

Such threats hold no fear for Vader. Indeed, it is in such situations that he feels most alive...in such moments that he can forget the armored prison in which he exists...forget the many sacrifices he has made to reach his current position as one of the most powerful entities in the galaxy. - Dark Times: The Path To Nowhere


He may have other ones, so im sorry if i didnt name it.


18 BBY-


Vader fights against Roan Shryne, a well renowned jedi master, called extremely skilled and strong, and just as experienced ( As tenuous as his contact with the Force sometimes was, Shryne was still a master with a sword, and almost thirty years of training had honed his instincts and turned his body into an instrument of tremendous speed and power. -Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader ). He was part of the Old Guard, a group of Jedi masters who were likely to become Council Members. This group consisted of Obi Wan, Dooku, Sifo Dyas, Qui Gon, Mace Windu, and Kit Fisto, so it just goes to show how strong Roan actually was. The duel itself was quite even, both had disadvantages and all that (Vader was not even a year into his new body and with a new, bigger lightsaber, while Roan was somewhat rusty and also with a different lightsaber). The important thing here to consider is that Vader was not over his past life at all, and had not actually even 'accepted' the dark by this point. He was a mental mess. It did not heavily affect the fight all that much, but its something to consider, since he still beat Roan through superior use of the force, something that requires mental fortitude and concentration, alongside its acceptance. Its actually a long fight, so ill just say its towards the end of Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader. He is very casually Roan's superior in power, and could have likely stomped him if he so wished, to be honest. Stomping someone who may very likely have been a Kit Fisto/ Attack of the Clones era Obi Wan force user is incredible, to say the least.


After killing Roan, Vader experienced a pretty big boost in power. He felt it like never before, meaning that it was his biggest amp yet, bigger than the first time Anakin ever even used the dark side, bigger even than when Anakin finally gave in to the dark side in ROTS, which impressed him immensely, and made his powers grow as easily as time passed. This Darth Vader >> previous Darth Vader. 

More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.
--
Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Nick Rotsu says that Vader could have stomped Kar Vastor. Vastor fought against Mace Windu, Dooku level force user. Regardless of the circumstances during said fight, no one will disregard the fact that both were comparable in power at that. Some will say that Nick is unreliable as a source, as his weakness in the force makes it so. Funnily enough, Nick addresses this by saying that even with his weakness in the force, the obviousness regarding the difference in power between the two is still there. This may mean that the difference between Vader and Vastor could be bigger than what Nick could even sense, making this even more impressive than before.

Nick Rostu knew darkness.
He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, eventhough he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.
Until now.
Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.
As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick. Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.
Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor.
It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.
Waiting. - Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight


Considered to be the strongest force user by two other LEGITIMATELY TRAINED FORCE USERS. One of them was jedi for sure, then an inquisitor, while the other was, as far as i know, an inquisitor only. He may have been a jedi as well, but i will not assume, even though it is very likely. This would put Vader above most well knwon jedi during the Clone Wars, such as Obi Wan, Anakin, Mace Windu, and some other well known people, such as council members, Cin Drallig, etc.

Abruptly he experienced a sudden tingle that vibrated the lines of the Force—a plangent throb telling him that a new player was approaching the blasted landscape of the Factory District. Someone extremely strong in the Force—stronger than he’d ever encountered before. It could mean only one thing:
Darth Vader was coming. - Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight


No, Jax didn’t know what Darth Vader was capable of. Aboard the dying Far Ranger he thought he had seen him fail to manipulate Thi Xon Yimmon’s mind and have to settle, instead, for manipulating gravity. Still …
“I’ve never known a Force-user as powerful as Vader,” he admitted. “Which only makes it more critical that we rescue Yimmon.”
--
Not only was Darth Vader the most powerful Force-user Tesla had ever known, he had always thought of him as a towering genius. - The Last Jedi


Nick Rostu himself says that Vader was the only thing he could think of that could kill Mace Windu. We have previously gotten a quote from Nick stating that Vader's power was obviously above Vastor's, so this is reliable as well, in my opinion. Even better, this quote comes from the OT era, from a more powerful, experienced, and skilled Nick Rostu.

"You knew Old Republic Jedi?"
"Met a few. Only really knew one. Dead now, of course."
"Of course."
"Way I heard it, Vader killed him personally."
Luke let his eyes close. "Vader? You're sure?"
"Had to be. Nobody but Vader would have had a chance." - Luke Skywalker And The Shadows Of Mindor


These are the best power related quotes i could find. If you think i missed something, just tell me. I feel like the most obvious thing that can be taken from this is that Vader is stronger than AOTC era Mace Windu, TCW Obi Wan, and TCW Anakin, no matter how one looks at it. 


A New Hope-


His first seen incarnation in the big screen. He is likely one of Vader's more underrated versions. I think it might because of his stiff, weird portrayal in the movies. Vader seems to still suffer from this to this day, even though George Lucas himself has addressed this, saying that the stiffness was caused by the suit the actor wore, while the low budget didnt help him out whatsoever. I suppose some accolades could him out:


Greatest Jedi killer of all time. Underrated quote, as it actually puts him above incredibly powerful/skilled people, such as Darth Nihilus, Galen Marek, Lumiya, and likely The Emperor's Wrath, Darth Malgus, and Darth Malak.

Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal. - Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force


Is considered to be virtually invincible. Now, considering how strong the characters are by this point, one can understand how strong this makes Darth Vader, as it means that out of all those incredibly strong beings, only a literal handful can actually get a chance at realistically defeating him. 

Clad in flowing black robes, protective armor, and a grotesque, combined breath mask and helmet, the imposing figure of Darth Vader was feared throughout the Empire. Utterly ruthless, his Sith powers made him virtually invincible. - Star Wars Fact File 3


Second strongest mortal being in the galaxy. Simplification would be that: if you are alive at the same time as Darth Vader, and your name is not Sheev Palpatine, then you are factually weaker than him, no questions asked. Makes him instantaneously stronger than Gethzerion (a threat so apparent that Sidious trapped her in her own planet, making her stronger than even Talzin in my eyes), Joruus (a genius clone of a Jedi named Jorus. He could legitimately stomp Mare Jade and Luke Skywalker one year before DE, and is as formidable as Vader himself, making for another great accolade for Vader himself), Karness Muur+Celeste Morne  (could give Darth Krayt and his One sith a very good fight, and was kriff talking their power, saying that he has beaten far stronger beings in his time), Starkiller (all allegations that Starkiller could still be stronger than Vader die here and now, as this 100% puts Vader above his apprentice in power), Darth Krayt (we do not know how strong Krayt was by this point, but one can assume that he is much stronger than the Krayt who gave Obi Wan a good fight), Exar Kun's spirit (Luke was threatened  by his power, and felt that he could kill him had he given Kun the chance to do so. Later on, we learn that Vader's level of power is as much of a threat to Luke as the combined powers of Kyp Durron and Exar Kun's spirit), Sedriss (considered to likely be Sidious' second strongest apprentice, putting him above even Dooku Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base. -Handbook #3: Dark Empire), among a good bit more.


Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself. - http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp


In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself. - Insider 65


At the beginning of A New Hope, Darth Vader is so powerful in the Dark Side that he is second in command of the entire galaxy! - Adventures Magazine 4

(^^^ His military might/influence grew alongside his power growth, hence why this is important for me to mention) 


Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid. - Death Star


Sidious says that Sedriss' powers and connection to the force is nothing when compared to Darth Vader's.   

As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executor Sedriss has been the most loyal, and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness, Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice. - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force


While he is clearly weaker, Vader is as formidable as Sidious. May be the fact that while Sidious is better with the force, Vader is the better warrior, which evens both of them out, in a way. Impressive thing about this is that Sidious is called the strongest being ever born by this point, and Vader is said to be as formidable as he is. This would not make him stronger than the Father, Son, or Daughter, as they are not normal living beings, and are often considered force deities.

Once Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the black-cloaked Darth Sidious has fulfilled his masterful plan and taken control of the entire galaxy, with the equally formidable Dark Lord of the Sith by his side. - Galactic Files: Emperor Palpatine



Vader would often fight against enemies that the empire and its forces could not deal with. Now, the empire has enforces throughout the while galaxy, and have weapons strong enough to wipe out whole cities, even islands, IN JUST ONE KIND OF SHIP. To think that an army of them could not defeat such people and organizations, but Vader by himself could just shows how powerful he was.

Aiding the Emperor in his monumental responsibilities is his apprentice and confidant, the formidable Lord Vader-a tragic hero who serves as the Emperor's strength when diplomacy fails. Vader personally battles against the Empire's most dangerous enemies-those individuals and organizations too powerful or too well-defended for the Imperial military alone to overcome. And as a price for his noble efforts, Lord Vader must suffer eternal confinement within his life-sustaining armor, without which he would surely perish within moments. - Hero's Guide


ROTJ, Vader's prime. He is a good deal above ESB Vader, who is even more powerful than the previously mentioned ANH Vader. 


Sidious complements Vader's ability to kill him to Vader's own power, even if he could never fully surpass Sidious. As i previously said, Sidious was considered the strongest being in the galaxy's history by that point (And what of the Emperor? He was mighty in the Force, perhaps the mightiest being who has ever lived. Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi) so no 'Valkorion', 'Revan', 'Soa', or any other mortal being is EVER one shotting, fodderizing, stomping, or EZ gg'in Vader, unless they are called Luke Skywalker, Sidious in Dark Empire, Darth Krayt at his prime, or Nyax. 

Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted for so long. - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force


Vader tanks Sidious' fully powered attack. I will not go over this, as it has been talked about too much, but one thing to keep in mind is that Sidious himself said that this was done by Vader's own powers, meaning that he could do such a thing more than once. Backs up what i said before, about him not being one shotted by anything unless they are a good deal stronger than Sidious himself.

When the evil Emperor, Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force, turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke, Anakin Skywalker suddenly awoke from the curse that had imprisoned him for so long… Shedding his bleak and soulless identity of Darth Vader, Anakin took the full force of his Dark Master’s evil lightning upon himself - and hurled the Emperor to his death. -Dark Empire 1 Endnotes


Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain. Vader grabs the Emperor from behind, fighting for control of the robed figure despite the Dark Lord's weakened body and gravely weakened arm.
The Emperor struggles in his embrace, his bolt-shooting hands now lifted high, away from Luke. Now the white lightning arcs back to strike at Vader. He stumbles with his load as the sparks rain off his helmet and flow down over his black cape. He holds his evil master high over his head and walks to the edge of the abyss at the central core of the throne room. With one final burst of his once awesome strength,
Darth Vader hurls the Emperor's body into the bottomless shaft.
The Emperor's body spins helplessly into the void, arcing as it falls into the abyss. Finally, when the body is far down the shaft, it explodes, creating a rush of air through the room.Vader's cape is whipped by the wind and he staggers, and collapses toward the bottomless hole. Luke crawls to his father's side and pulls him away from the edge of the abyss to safety. Both the young Jedi and the giant warrior are too weak to move. -Return Of The Jedi Movie Script


At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his very fiber of being on this one, concentrated act—the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weakness, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will—his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.
Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart. Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.
Palpatine's body, still spewing bolts of light, spun out of control, into the void, bouncing back and forth off the sides of the shaft as it fell. It disappeared at last; but then, a few seconds later, a distant explosion could be heard, far down at the core. A rush of air billowed out of the shaft, into the throne room. The wind whipped at Lord Vader's cape, as he staggered and collapsed toward the hole, trying to follow his master to the end. Luke crawled to his father's side, though, and pulled the Dark Lord away from the edge of the chasm, to safety. -Return Of The Jedi


As the Emperor continued to strike Luke with his barrage of Sith lightning, Vader struggled to his feet. One leg was broken, and the other wasn't working right. Moving awkwardly, he shifted his bulk to stand beside his Master. On the floor, Luke writhed in agony, and was on the verge of death as he groaned, "Father, please. Help me."
Vader watched Luke curl into a fetal position as the Emperor hurled an even more staggering wave of lightning at his victim. Vader had no doubt that Luke was about to die. His son screamed.
Not just my son . . .
The Emperor unleashed another round of lightning.
. . . or Padme's son . . .
Luke screamed louder.
. . . but my son . . . who loves me.
Luke's clothes began to smolder as his body involuntarily spasmed. Suddenly, Vader realized that he was no longer concerned about his own personal future. Despite all the terrible, unspeakable things he'd done in his life, he knew he could not stand by and allow the Emperor to kill Luke. And in that moment of awareness, he was Darth Vader no more.
He was Anakin Skywalker.
It took all of his remaining strength to seize the Emperor from behind, lift him off his feet, and carry him to the open elevator shaft. The wretched Emperor continued to release lightning bolts, but they veered away from Luke and arced back to crash down upon him and his insurgent apprentice. The lightning penetrated Vader's life-support suit and electrified Anakin's organic remains, but he lurched forward until he could throw the Emperor into the elevator shaft.
Palpatine screamed as his body plummeted down the shaft. Still trapped within Darth Vader's armor, Anakin collapsed at the shaft's edge, but heard the explosion of dark energy that consumed the falling Emperor. -The Rise And Fall Of Darth Vader


Vader mocks Cade's 'knowledge and understanding of power'. Why is this impressive? Because Cade has met and read about the Skywalker family before, enough to recognize their faces and voices instantly, and yet Vader laughs in his face because what Cade thinks he knows is pretty much a joke. Cade has apparently been in Luke Skywalker's presence more than once before, as well as Mara Jade's. This supports the idea that Vader > Anakin because 1) Cade knows about Anakin just like he knows about the rest of the Skywalker family well enough to easily recognize them, meaning that he probably knows much of their history as well, which would include his feats in battle and war, and 2) Anakin, to show Cade what 'real power' is like, turns into Darth Vader, the face of fear, the dark side, and unbeatable power. Funnily enough, Vader doenst even use the rage he actually speaks of here. He simply dons the suit and mask to scare and overwhelm Cade. A full power Darth Vader would in fact be far above the Vader presented here.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ISS-ZKbE3Gi4H1EbMJ3qwPWBZ4KnkgF_HURB9eXci8ckjmx2-QOqLzoVYd67ooBs_4DRFUdSwhUn=s1600



At worst, the scaling chain would be more or less like this:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader > ANH Vader > TFU2 Vader ~ Starkiller > Galen Marek ~ TFU Vader > 18 BBY Vader > Kar Vastor ~ AOTC Mace Windu.

I used 6 of these (>) things right there.

ROTJ Vader >>>>>> Kar Vastor ~ AOTC Mace Windu


At best:

ROTJ Vader (strong enough to be comparable to Sidious in power, and capable of taking on Sidious attacks. Sidious is likely the strongest being in the galaxy's history by this point.) > early ROTJ Vader > later ESB Vader > ESB Vader (fairly stronger than before) >> ANH Vader (as formidable as Darth Sidious himself, but not necessarily powerful enough to kill him. Could beat opponents that imperial army could not take care of. Far stronger than Sedriss, a Dooku level force user, likely stronger. Second strongest being in the galaxy, making him a bigger threat than all other of Sidious' previously mentioned threats. Virtually invincible. Greatest Jedi killer ever) > later TFU2 Vader > TFU2 Vader ~ Starkiller when angry >> Starkiller at the end of the game > Starkiller at the start of the game > Galen Marek ~ TFU1 Vader > earlier TFU Vader >>> 18 BBY Vader (far above Kar Vastor. Strong enough to kill Mace Windu. Strongest force user two jedi/inquisitors ever met. Much stronger than Roan Shryne, a jedi possibly as strong as Obi Wan during Attack Of The Clone) >>> Kar Vastor ~ AOTC Mace Windu ~ AOTC Dooku ~ 19 BBY Vader


I used 18 of these (>) things right there.

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kar Vastor ~ AOTC Mace Windu


Last edited by lorenzo.r.2nd on December 28th 2019, 3:20 pm; edited 6 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
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Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on December 18th 2019, 12:09 pm
FIGHTING SKILL


First things first, I have yet to see a statement saying that Darth Vader lost his fighting ability/skill after his loss on Mustafar. If someone could provide one made after Revenge of the Sith, i would be most impressed. Ill actually ignore that for now, focusing only on what Vader's feats and statements. 


19 BBY-


Vader stomps Aurra Sing without his lightsaber, hand to hand. Doing this makes me believe him to be one of the best hand to hand fighters in the verse, to be honest. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/aurra-sing-respect-thread-1638099/  thats a respect thread for Aurra. If one were to go to the Combat Skills section, im sure one can also understand how skilled Vader had to be to pull this off. 

Her fist never made contact. Raising his right hand and bringing it around in a swift arc, Vader blocked the blow and sent the body behind it flying across the room. As she flew, a startled but still wholly self-aware Sing tucked and rolled. She hit the opposite wall hard, bounced off, landed on her feet, and immediately came at him again.
“The reflexes of an animal,” Vader murmured. His lightsaber hung at his waist. He ignored it, his fingers going nowhere near the weapon. “That’s what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals.”
“Domesticated? I’ll show you who’s domesticated!” She leapt high, kicking out, and in midthrust somehow bent sideways to kick harder with her other leg.
In a movement preternaturally fast, but which somehow looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord’s touch was more of a caress. He was letting her know what he could have done.
Landing in a crouch, a feral expression on her face, she raced at him again, low this time. Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration. She dropped low to the floor and swung her right leg around in a powerful circle sweep. Her intent was to take his legs out from under him. - Coruscant Nights II: Street Of Shadows 


Vader makes the only lightsaber form/style in the verse composed of all forms, from 1 to 7. All of their strengths, and none of their weaknesses. No other duelist in the verse has actually done this. The closest things i can think of is Dooku's/Yoda's perfection of their styles, which had attributes of other styles, Sidious with his quick swapping of forms mid fight, and Mace Windu's Vaapad, an advanced form of Juyo, the 7th style. This clearly shows Vader's skill with the blade, and his sheer fighting sense, when compared to the other well known duelists in the verse.

His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.
--
She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems. Ducking out from under a broad sweep of the crimson blade, she somersaulted to safety. -Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


He could fodderize incredibly skilled Jedi, more than once. In Rise of Darth Vader, Vader fights two jedi knights at the same time, both of who were using varying styles to throw Vader off his game. Vader destroyed them. 

And so Forte and Kulka went in as a team, each of them employing a radically different lightsaber style, determined to off-balance Vader.
But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault. Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved. Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.
Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed. Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.
Seeing the two Jedi Knights drop to their knees, wincing in pain, Padawan Klossi Anno broke from where she was helping Jambe and Nam engage the stormtroopers and got to Vader one step ahead of Starstone. Sidestepping, Vader slashed her across the back, sending her sprawling across the balcony; then he whirled on Forte and Kulka just as they were clambering to their feet and decapitated them. From behind Vader came Jambe and Nam, neither of whom was an experienced fighter and both of whom Vader immediately eliminated from the fight, amputating Jambe's right arm, and Nam's right leg.
To her horror, Starstone realized she was suddenly alone with Vader, who immediately signaled his stormtroopers to leave her to him, and to devote themselves to slaughtering the few Wookiees who remained on the tier. "Now you, Padawan," he said, as he began to circle her. Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with aver. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion.
So she retreated, altering her strategy and calming herself. Vader is so tall, so imposing... But perhaps I can get under or inside his guard as Master Chatak did "Your thoughts give you away, Padawan," he said in a flash. "You mustn't take the time to think. You must act on impulse. Instead of repressing youranger, call on it! Make use of it to defeat me."
Starstone feigned an attack, then sidestepped and slashed at him. Shifting to a one-handed hold on his lightsaber, he parried her blade and lunged forward. She snapped aside in the nick of time, but he kept coming at her, answering her increasingly frantic strikes with harsher ones and driving her inexorably toward the rim of the balcony. He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back...She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems. Ducking out from under a broad sweep of the crimson blade, she somersaulted to safety.
But only for a moment. -Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader



Second time is a month after his surgery. He fights 8 jedi at the same time, all of whom can be safely assumed to be more skilled than the previously shown jedi. One of them, the first one killed, is a famous jedi, known as his tribe's best warrior, i believe, even before he became a jedi. Vader one shot him without much trouble. I suppose this falls in line with Vader stomping Aurra.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833816-jd.jpg


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833817-jd1.jpg


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833818-jd2.jpg


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833819-jd3.jpg


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833820-jd4.jpg


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833821-jd5.jpg



Vader destroys Ferus Olin. He is also is far more powerful than Ferus as well, who is evened out in power and skill with Anakin back in AOTC era (Jedi Quest series; Last of the Jedi series)


18 BBY Vader, who is a good deal more skilled, mainly because he is now simply better at using what he has, and has now acostumed himself to his new body (he figured out how it works, to put it simply lol).


Fights evenly against Roan Shryne. I have previously mentioned him. He is an underrated council member level jedi master, who is extremely skilled in the way of the light saber. One thing i have to say about him is that it seems to me that his skill with a blade is greater than his powers in the force. He surely does have a weird connection, but that does not come from his power level, it comes from his mentality. He survived many years without the use of the force through sheer skill. He may be one more skilled Jedi that i can think of in the order. He seems to know how skilled and deadly General Grievous, so I will assume that he may have seen, or even fought against, Grievous before. Grievous is quite skilled, even thought he has lost to some Jedi before, which does not take away from his skillfulness. Jedi have precognition, often times 15 years of hard training, and by the time they become Padawans, some are as experienced as war veterans. Grievous losing to their most skilled and strongest members does not, at all, mean that he is less skilled than them. He may very well be, of course. My point is- losing to an opponent who often times has much better advantages than you does not make you necessarily less skilled than them. To finish this first paragraph here, Roan considers Vader to be a greater danger than Grievous himself, and yet Roan showed no fear in fighting him, and decided to go for a win too. I can safely say that Roan may be capable of fighting, and possibly beating Griveous at his best, and yet, a mentally unstable Darth Vader completely matched him. While both were not in best conditions (Roan was likely slightly rusty, and used someone else's lightsaber; Vader was new to his body, somewhat, and had a new lightsaber), Vader was established as the superior warrior right from the start. Makes me want to say that Vader could in fact beat Grievous in a duel, while possibly being the superior duelist. Grievous has been a somewhat implied, but almost established, superior duelist to Asajj Ventress, Adi Gallia, and Shak Ti, while fighting against some of the order's even more skilled duelists, such as Mace Windu, Eeth Koth, Kit Fisto, Obi Wan Kenobi (many times), and Ki-Adi Mundi, and once against Darth Maul as well. 

“Normally, I’d agree,” Shryne cut in. “But someone new has been added to the mix. A Lord Vader.” When Garrulan didn’t react to the name, he continued. “A sort of black-armored version of Grievous, only more dangerous, and apparently in charge of doing Palpatine’s dirty work.” -Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader 


Nick Rotsu considers the possibility that Vader likely killed Mace Windu. I did make this point previously, but i was talking about power. Now im talking about skill. Mace is well known as being the order's second best duelist for about 10 years, behind only its best duelist ever, Yoda, and his former, defected apprentice, Count Dooku, who was the verse's best makashi user, using it so supremely that he did not need to rely on other forms/styles, just like Yoda did with ataru. Not only did Nick see Mace fight, he also heard of Mace beforehand, so there is no way to say that Nick doesnt know what he is talking about. Could he be wrong? Yes he could. He very likely is, in my humble opinion, but no matter how you look at it, Nick still thought that Vader have in fact defeated Mace Windu.

"You knew Old Republic Jedi?"
"Met a few. Only really knew one. Dead now, of course."
"Of course."
"Way I heard it, Vader killed him personally."
Luke let his eyes close. "Vader? You're sure?"
"Had to be. Nobody but Vader would have had a chance." -Luke Skywalker And The Shadows Of Mindor


The Force Unleashed, many years after this 18 BBY, meaning that a much more skilled Vader is now being talked about. Unfortunately, only one thing that i could find was actually worth mentioning. Fortunately though, this one feat is actually quite good. 


(i kinda copy/pasted this from my respect thread lol im sorry for being lazy).

Against Proxy. Proxy was a training droid, programmed to kill, but not just anyone- it was programmed to fight Galen Marek. It had many, many different combat modules, which allowed it to almost perfectly imitate and replicate the skills and abilities of other people, some including Anakin and Obi Wan. He didnt just copy their abilities, he also could access some of their history, which i assume made him even deadlier. The obvious assumption here is Proxy's modules are about as close to perfect as they come. The techniques were very realistic, as they were in fact programmed by Vader. Even the lighsabers Proxy used were given to Proxy by Vader. He turned into Obi Wan, his self-proclaimed deadliest module, and engaged Vader. Vader completely destroys him, even after being caught off guard. He was clearly not Obi Wan exactly (mentally, i mean), and Vader was clearly stronger and faster, but it does show how a pissed off Vader wouldve against fought a weaker Obi Wan, even after Mustafar. To give some context here, Vader faced off against Proxy's deadliest module, which was deemed as such even though Proxy had a semi perfect module for Anakin (i sometimes wonder how he got this module in the first place...), which was considered impressive by Galen, even without the force. He could also copy some force techniques, such as saber throw, jumps, and such things, so he was not fully outmatched. The fight was a duel, and nothing more, so no force abilities aside from physical boosts came into play. Vader simply destroyed Proxy in a duel, even though Proxy started with the upper hand, WHILE Vader was throw off his game after seeing Obi Wan's face.

As though from a position high above, he watched his Master spin around to face Obi-Wan Kenobi.
The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff’s edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half. -The Force Unleashed


The Force Unleashed 2. Now this is where the fun begins. I actually like TFU2, to be honest. Back to topic lol


Vader is unparalleled as a lightsaber duelist. Now, this does not have a set time, so it may be talking about the time in which TFU2 takes place, or it may refer to all other duelists in the series of Star Wars. Technically speaking, both work, of course, and even though the second option is the better one, my point will still be at play, and be just as effective. Vader being unparalleled, even if we are speaking about TFU2 only, still puts him above Yoda and Sidious. The quote itself actually says that he is even better with the force, which i assume means that his skills with it are nothing but insane.

Now, the arguments against this could be: 

Sidious and Yoda were left out? Yeah, no. Yoda has been said so many to be the order's best duelist, or being one of the best duelists to have ever lived, or the most skilled jedi ever, that it simply counters this argument just by existing.


Sidious and Yoda were forgotten about? ... Forgotten about? Yoda? Sidious? the two babies who get all the best accolades in the verse, the best scaling chains, and the most hype/wank available. This argument is ridiculous. 


Sidious and Yoda are rusty? Sidious himself had not even TOUCHED his lightsabers in more than 10 years at one point, and was still more skilled than Maul, while being capable of fighting against Mace Windu at his peak, and a non rusty Yoda. Yoda on the other hand, has 'overcome' his rustiness by fighting once, in what is assumed to be his first fight since Dooku left the order (it has been said many times that the two seriously sparred often, something that stopped before TPM even happened), and yet, 2.5 years later, he goes and beats Sidious in a duel. So no, the rustiness argument also does not work.

Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder. -Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide


Vader defends himself from Starkiller's attack. Seems to be pretty basic precog stuff, but it gets more interesting when neither seems to have a speed advantage over the other, and even more interesting when Starkiller also had precog alongside another lightsaber. Vader blocked all of his attacks EASY. The fight itself is quite long, and it would take up too much space in here, so ill just say that one can find it in The Force Unleashed 2 novel.

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying. - The Force Unleashed 2



ANH time period.


Guess first things first- a statement of equal value to the previous one. This backs up the fact that he is indeed the best duelist alive, possibly ever, by this point. Good thing about this is this Vader is in fact more skilled than TFU2 Vader, who had an equally good accolade, meaning that Vader, technically speaking, is a better duelist than the verse's previously mentioned best duelist. To be sure of what I am affirming here is legitimate, i decided to look for statements like this for Yoda, and he does in fact posses one of them. But only one, from what i could find. I looked for accolades for Sidious as well, but i could find nothing like this. Sidious has already been beaten by Yoda in ROTS, making him the 'lesser' duelist of the two. 

No one was a match for the lightsaber skills of the dark lord of the Sith. -Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game: The Shadow Syndicate


Said to be as formidable as Sidious himself. Since Sidious is the superior force user as well as the smarter person, the only possible things i can think of to even them out, enough to make their formidability equal to one another, would be that Vader be the greater fighter and the more physically capable of the two. Makes sense, from my point of view. 

Once Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the black-cloaked Darth Sidious has fulfilled his masterful plan and taken control of the entire galaxy, with the equally formidable Dark Lord of the Sith by his side. -Galactic Files: Emperor Palpatine


He can beat people/organizations too powerful, or well defended for the empire to beat. I believe that i mentioned this already, and how that would mean that he would have to outsmart/overpower/outskill said opponents. Either one of these is already kind of a HUGE accolade, but i will try to focus on the skill part of this, as some of the enemies that the often cannot beat are individuals, and not just organizations, meaning that Vader would've had to outskill people that armies of storm troopers could not, even with the aid of ships, planning, and genius minds on their side. We have seen Vader walk through armies before, but this seems to be a much bigger threat, as it is explicitly said that the empire's forces could not beat them, and yet, Vader by himself, would go there, get the job done, and come back.

Aiding the Emperor in his monumental responsibilities is his apprentice and confidant, the formidable Lord Vader-a tragic hero who serves as the Emperor's strength when diplomacy fails. Vader personally battles against the Empire's most dangerous enemies-those individuals and organizations too powerful or too well-defended for the Imperial military alone to overcome. And as a price for his noble efforts, Lord Vader must suffer eternal confinement within his life-sustaining armor, without which he would surely perish within moments. -Hero's Guide


Vader trained and easily beat droids programmed to kill him, with knowledge and skills of a dozen different martial artists and their arts, alongside some weapons. He actually beat them without using the force, and its implied that he fought against more than one at a time. Even more importantly, Vader likely made them more dangerous as well, considering his mechanical and technological knowledge, and his obsession of not losing, being the best, and such things. I would not dismiss the idea that they were a good deal above magna guards, and at 'wank' levels, they could be as deadly as Grievous himself.

He left his lightsaber clipped to his belt. Ordinarily he would have used it to practice on the dueling droids that had been specially designed and constructed to test his mettle. Programmed with the knowledge and skills of a dozen different martial artists, and armed with deadly cutting or impact weapons, they were formidable opponents indeed, and had been an integral part of Sith training since time immemorial. But not everything was about the lightsaber. There were other attributes, other weapons in his arsenal, that needed exercising as well. -Death Star


Empire Strikes Back. 


Vader is now much more formidable than before. As Im sure you have previously read, Vader was kind of a big deal already, and now, he has surpassed himself yet again, by a noticeable margin too.


Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. -Insider #62


Vader stomps some more, droids seemingly, and very likely superior to the previously mentioned ones He then complains that they were too weak, and how he will need some better ones. He has been doing this for two decades now, so he mustve kept asking for new ones constantly. These droids could very honestly have been deadly enough to kill full blown jedi, something we have seen much older droids do. Them being above the best of magna guards is honestly something very, very likely now, and the idea of them being as dangerous as Grievous is not nearly as crazy. Hell, he helped make Proxy. He could have made these droids just as dangerous as Proxy himself. 

Darth Vader held his lightsaber firmly, wrists locked, and watched the killer droid circle to its left. The droid was a new model, one of a dozen identical units constructed to his personal specifications. Like Vader, it also held a lightsaber. It was tall, spindly, looked something like the general-purpose Asps to be found all over the Empire, but with a number of special modifications. The unit was faster than an ordinary man, stronger, programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen different fighting styles. Against a normal person, the droid would be unbeatable and deadly-The droid stepped in fast and cut at Vader's head. Vader blocked, and the droid chopped again, circling the humming blade in a second cut at Vader's side. Fast, but again a block-The droid's third attack came from the opposite side as its blade flashed in a large half circle-Vader parried and riposted, angling a slash at thedroid's head - The droid blocked and slid back a meter, out of range, blade held over its head, point angled down.
The slight ache in Vader's shoulder where Luke had cut through his armor during their fight was definitely better. He hardly felt any soreness at all with that series. He moved in, swung a feint at the droid's neck, twisted his wrists, and pivoted the lightsaber for a sec-ond feint at the same side, then a third feint, a jab at the midsection. The droid stepped back and crossblocked the finalfeint-Vader V-stepped to his left, cocked his blade over hisleft shoulder, and hacked forty-five degrees at the base of the metal neck-The droid's block was a quarter second slow. Strong as it was, it was not strong enough to offset the power and momentum of Vader's strike.
The blades met, hissed and sparked, but Vader's sword shoved the droid's blade to the side. It tried to backpedal-Too late. The lightsaber hit midway between the droid's neck and shoulder joint, sheared through the exoframe and halfway through the chest. Circuitrysparked, shorted out. Sparks and acrid smoke erupted from the droid's body. It dropped the lightsaber as its hand controls died. Fell to its knees. Vader cocked the weapon over his right shoulderand swung in a flat horizontal arc-The lightsaber sliced through the droid's neck and took its head off. The head fell, bounced, and the droid's decapitated body fell backward.
Vader stood over the downed droid. Soon he would have to order another dozen of them produced-this was the eighth one of the originals; he had but four left. And the next batch would need to be improved. It was getting too easy. -Shadows Of The Empire


Return of the Jedi.


More skilled and deadly than ever before. Pretty simple one, simply to state that he is now more skilled than before, and that he is at his best now.

Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! -Return of the Jedi Comic


Vader couldve stomped Lumiya. This is from 40 BBY, from Luke himself. Funny thing about this is, Luke has never fought a fully serious, or full powered Vader, at his best, and yet, he still thinks that Vader would have defeated Lumiya, whom Luke has fought against more than once before. Quite the impressive accolade.

Luke frowned over that one. "Lady has to be Lumiya. She used to style herself the Dark Lady of the Sith ... after Emperor Palpatine and my father were no longer around to slap her down for presumption."-Legacy of the Force: Exile


Vader destroy's Cade Skywalker in a fight. Cade was, before the fight started, somewhat affected by 'deathsticks', a drug from the Star Wars Verse. I have seen arguments here that Cade lost because he was still under its effects, but this honestly doesn't cut it for me. Cade uses the dark side, which, as we know, can temporarily cure/heal one of their ailments, which would include the effects produced by the deathsticks here. As for Vader, while he may look like Vader in this passage, he is actually Anakin, in his light sider form. He looks like Vader to prove a point, saying that hatred can be good and useful, but only if the user himself is smart about it, and knows how to use it, unlike Anakin on Mustafar, who lost to Obi Wan because he couldnt control himself (there is more to this, but i wont go into much detail).

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/lcqXvpIK316xCLK6zIru2-CAg5Xs1fGXwL1BN4i1GnZ_cPWFqp-EnV2bA-_U1CNgqYlwRcQxBepl=s1600


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/TycW-yTNZIlTvV9ky9ml5UFwcfJtvbStoZDawuADwNwhv8AZtvUnee-hkr2Zp4R-GiCC3M_IzcqV=s1600


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/8dyW2ezgr6MZrvo0wVl5vjuLzy9nyG28-MuqKjJ_yk2W7nmi2mYOIr6_ZVH8yaPHbD-G3QHxcvc_=s1600


This is more or less all of it for his skills section. I actually cannot think of a fair a duel in which Vader lost, and this just goes to show why that is the case. Some simple scaling chain to help visualize things. 


At worst:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader > ANH Vader > TFU2 Vader > TFU1 Vader > 18 BBY Vader ~ AOTC Mace Windu > Grievous > Asajj Ventress

I used 7 of these (>) things right there.

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>> Grievous


At best:

ROTJ Vader (deadlier than ever; capable of stomping Lumiya while not at his best; far above Cade early in Legacy) > ESB Vader (much more formidable than before; could easily stomp droids that were likely far above magna guards, possible even more dangerous, that were even more dangerous than the ANH ones) >> ANH Vader (could stomp droids likely far tougher than magna guards; could beat individuals too powerful/skilled/smart for the empire's army to beat; as formidable as Sidious himself; virtually invincible; unmatched with a lighsaber; better than before by a small, but noticeable margin) > TFU2 Vader (could easily block Starkiller's attacks; unparalleled duelist) >> TFU1 Vader (stomped Proxy, a droid who could copy and apply into combat Anakin's and Obi Wan's skills, as well as access their history, and could pull off mock force abilities like it was nothing, even thought he was caught by a surprise) >>> 18 BBY Vader (could have killed Mace Windu; fought evenly against Roan Shryne, who thought himself skill enough to have beaten a Grievous level duelist, even though he was mentally unstable; deadlier than Grievous) ~ Mace Windu > Grievous ~ Roan Shryne ~ TCW Shak Ti, etc > Asajj Ventress

I use 12 of these (>) things right there.

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>>>>>> Greivous.


Last edited by lorenzo.r.2nd on December 28th 2019, 3:32 pm; edited 9 times in total
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on December 18th 2019, 12:31 pm
1. You may wanna fix some of the quotes and space out the paragraphs a bit for easier reading.

2. Nice work.
BoD
BoD
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on December 18th 2019, 1:42 pm
Small correction: Vader's technique does have flaws. It centres around protecting his life support system on his chest, leaving him vulnerable to attacks to his limbs or other body parts. He also lacks the agility of beings like Yoda, Sidious or Luke.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on December 18th 2019, 2:33 pm
im not saying the techique itself, or he himself was flawless- i said that the style is flawless as just that, a style. if the user cant use it to its fullest, then it becomes flawed, which in this case, comes from his lack of normal human agility. agility does not affect his dueling ability, it affects how well he fights. were he to fight someone who didnt jump around, did flips, and climbed on top of things  IE someone like him, not as agile, he wouldve won 99% of his battles in the first 10 seconds. I actually think Luke is the only person who ever beat him in a duel in a fair fight, believe, and even then, it had circumstances that u know about. final thing is that vader is not as stiff as people think. he is stiff compared to jedi and super trained athletes. he is more agile than ur normal human though, as im sure u already know.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on December 20th 2019, 4:18 pm
SKILL (FORCE) 


This might be one of my shorter, but hard to do sections. Vader has incredible displays of power, but not enough displays of skill with the force, even though he is in fact skilled in his own right. Ill try to do my best here. 


First things first- Vader is not less skilled with the force than Anakin. 

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”-A New Hope


Now that we are done with that, some showings as to how skilled Anakin is, regarding the skills he had at the time at least. I wont claim that Anakin is better than Sidious at sorcery or alchemy, but it does show how skilled he is with his abilities at this point.

Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple. -Databank (old): Darth Vader


"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." -Revenge of the Sith


19 BBY, Vader starts learning and collecting information that he did not have beforehand. He actually needs to master them to see how useful they even were, and honestly, he had tons upon tons of stuff to cover, and he did in fact learn them. I somewhat explained why/how in my respect thread: 


"Vader had learned a lot from the most knowledgeable force user in the verse. He likely had the biggest amount of information to cover out of anybody who was not Darth Sidious. Vader had 1000 years worth of information from the Banite order to cover, newly rediscovered information that Sidious found (which would mean information resurfacing every now and then that covered over 25,000 years), tons upon tons of incredible, hidden holocrons in jedi temples all over the galaxy (both sith and jedi holocrons, and of the highest caliber too, some too dangerous for jedi masters to even study, with information more ancient than even the existence of the first sith lords), not to mention the powers Sidious himself invented, and the stuff only Vader himself knew (he had 20+ years to roam the galaxy freely, to do what he so wished in his free time, and he did nothing short of scouring said galaxy looking for information on how to revive Padme, or to find the power to kill Palatine, or maybe to restore himself to his old self. He might just be one of the most knowledgeable force users in the verse). Im only putting this here, so early in his career, simply because thats how early he started said search/lessons. Luke himself started learning about things he had never heard of from Sidious quite early in his 'training', and he was still a less skilled force user than Anakin by this point, so it makes me think that Anakin too might've started said 'lessons' as early as this timeframe."

Thats impressive because it took Anakin only 20 years to actually learn just the Dark Side stuff. It took Palpatine more than 35ish years to master the stuff that Plagueis had in his library, which had less information then than it did now. Granted, Vader did have an extra 12.5 years to master his ability to use the force before he started his training, which mightve given him a head start, but he would still do just as well as Sidious did with his ability to learn/ training, showing how skilled Vader is. 

A list of what Vader had available to him in those 20 years, among other things. 

Luke is, perhaps, learning more about the Dark Side than he wants to know. The more the Emperor reveals, the more Luke is repulsed. The sheer depravity of the man would shake the soul of the strongest Jedi.
But Luke must continually remind himself of his vow to conquer the Dark Side from within.
Luke's father understood these secrets, these powers, and willingly used them to crush and enslave multitudes of Galactic citizens.
"Your father knew the Dark Side well...especially my teachings of weakness. How he could inspire fear! Yes...you have that talent...you are a Skywalker after all... You can be like him... You can be greater than he was!"
--
Satisfied that his "young apprentice" has crossed the threshold from which there is no returning, the Emperor unveils his teaching, and Luke is given the knowledge that was bestowed on his father before him! -Dark Empire Endnotes


"I found knowledge there...all the dark things father knew so well...the ability to control others...to destroy others, if I so choose. -Dark Empire I


On Vjun, Vader conducted his own studies of the dark side. He had no doubt that the Emperor knew what he wanted more than anything: the power to kill his Master. -The Rise And Fall Of Darth Vader


As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side. -Force And Destiny Core Rulebook


After the Emperor completed Vader's dark training, he granted him the title of "Lord Vader." -Heir To The Empire Sourcebook



https://www.writeurl.com/text/erglziw58zpfhn28hs9k/qs73424aelclbjo5cnus


(^^^ Sidious is quite famous for being knowledgeable in all sorts of applications of the force, somewhat obsessed with power and information, and a quick learner just like Vader, so it makes sense that the person who conducted Vader's training must have also made Vader train quite extensively before he finished said training, which likely included everything that Sidious thought was necessary, which yet again, was a whole big lot. No wonder both are called the supreme masters of the dark side later on)


Vader's knowledge of the dark side of the Force makes him a powerful and dangerous figure. -Star Wars: Sith Wars


Vader's knowledge of the dark side of the Force makes him unnerving and dangerous. -Character Encyclopedia



Darth Bane's Rule of Two was a keystone of the Sith Order for centuries. The Battle of Ruusan, nearly a millennium ago, would have ended the Sith Order had Darth Bane not reconstituted it as a diarchy operating from the shadows. His writings became part of the Sith Archives passed down from master to apprentice for generations. -Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side



For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation. -Episode I: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook



The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new. -Revenge Of The Sith


Krimsan was a humanoid female with more than two hundred years of teaching experience at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. It remains unknown how the holocron that she maintained came into Darth Vader's possession. Although the Asli Krimsan Holocron was primarily conceived for the education of young Jedi, it also contains information on a wide range of events, including tales of the Jedi Knight of the old Republic and their battles against the Sith. -Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force


Black armorweave and feats of strength weren't the only things that distinguished Darth Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader–even light-years from Coruscant–could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters. -Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


"Beyond this door lies the Holocron Vault. The Holocrons contain the most closely guarded secrets of the Jedi Order.-The Clone Wars Season 2: Holocron Heist


The Archives vault contains the only known Sith Holocrons, whose very existence is revealed only to a handful of Jedi at the highest levels. -Attack Of The Clones Visual Dictionary


For a thousand generations, the Jedi worked hard to ensure that peace flourished throughout the galaxy. During that time, a number of repositories of Jedi knowledge developed, whose scope and sheer magnitude have become legendary. Of these, the library on the planet Ossus is perhaps the most infamous. Tragically, it was obliterated when the stars of the nearby Cron cluster were exploded by the weapon of the ancient Sith High Priest, Naga Sadow. What vast knowledge and wisdom was lost in the ensuing conflagration is now a matter for myths and stories to imagine. In more recent times, the Archives at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant were similarly vast. -Star Wars Fact File 46



https://www.writeurl.com/text/veshwvpvk530j6151z04/as04pufzrghag2c36f0f



Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers. -The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


While he retained his knowledge of the Jedi arts, he felt uncertain about his place in the Force; and while he had taken his first steps toward awakening the power of the dark side, he felt uncertain about his ability to sustain that power. How far he might have been now had fate not intervened to strip him of almost everything he possessed, as a means of remaking him! -Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader


I have my own agents among the Blackguard. Any secrets they uncover become mine soon after. -Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side


The Blackguard operates from the molten world of Mustafar. They are largely recluses and have sought dark side lore since they emerged from the ruins of Sith philosophy after the Battle of Ruusan nearly a thousand years ago. The Blackguard clings to the principle that acquiring knowledge is superior to exerting physical power. -Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side



The Blackguard is a dark side cult that seeks to increase its knowledge and power by searching for secrets held by Force traditions all over the galaxy. -Jedi Academy Training Manual


(^^^ Said Blackguard not only set up bases on Mustafar, but also worked for an ex-member of the brotherhood of darkness, under Skere Khan, who amassed their info until their leader defected, and the Blackguard went with him. If Khan had the info, Qordis had the info, and if Qordis had the info, Bane had the info, and if Bane had the info, Vader had the info. They semi worshiped information, kinda like Plagueis, Sidious, and the Banites did, interestingly enough, but on a more extreme fashion).


Much later, one of the pupils returned. He told us that Obi-Wan and the Jedi were destroyed—by his hand—then, he invoked our oath and made Skye an Imperial satrapy, to be ruled in his name by Kharys, to whom he gave a portion of his knowledge and powers. That man was Darth Vader. -Star Wars Annual 1: The Long Hunt


The excerpts from the journal of Darth Malgus kept during the Great Galactic War some thirty-six centuries ago are a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage. The war was an unbounded success for the era's Sith Emperor, and Malgus was one of his best soldiers. I obtained this text many decades ago from a dealer in antiquities, and have recently passed it to Darth Vader so he might gain inspiration. -Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side


Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith
--
Vader held fast to his Jedi training, but he freely drew upon the dark side for additional strength and power. He also embraced the Sith teachings passed on to him by the Emperor, earning the title of Dark Lord through deeds and mastery, by utilizing the deep well of anger within him. -Rebellion Era Sourcebook


Vader is highly skilled in manipulating the Force. His knowledge of the dark side is enough to render most of your Force attacks useless. -The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide


18 BBY 


Vader can, by this point in time at least, move things without hand movements, while his connection to the force was probably at its lowest ever, as his mind was split, confused, and unstable. This worsens one's control of the force by a good deal, so this feat is very impressive, considering the fact that he is only 23 by this point, making him by far the youngest person capable of doing this. Sidious, Vitiate, Freedon Nadd, Revan, Traya, and only the most skilled force users can do this. Vader is well known for doing this often, more often than any other character in the verse, actually, so i can safely say that his skill with telekinesis might just arguably be the best in the verse, supported by his skills being unparalleled while being less skilled than now. 

Before Shryne could begin to make sense of it, he heard a creaking sound from below, and something flew at him from one of the ramps. Only a last-instant turn of his sword kept the object from striking him in the head. It was a plank-ripped from a ramp they had taken to the bridge. Shryne gazed in awe at unreadable Vader, then began to race toward him, blade held high over his right shoulder. He didn't make half the distance when a storm of similar planks and lengths of handrail came whirling at him. Vader was using his dark side abilities to dismantle the ramps!
Surrendering to the guidance of the Force, Shryne swung his lightsaber in a flurry of deflecting maneuvers-side-to-side, overhead, low down, behind his back-but the floorboards were coming in larger and larger pieces, from all directions, and faster than he could parry them. The butt end of a board struck him on the outer left thigh. The face of a wide plank slammed him across the shoulders. Wooden pegs flew at his face; other speared into his arms.
Then a short support post hit him squarely in the forehead, knocking the wind out of him and dropping him to his knees. Blood running into his eyes, he fought to remain conscious, extending the lightsaber in one shaking hand while clamping the other on the bridge's handrail. Five meters away Vader stood, his hands crossed in front of him, lightsaber hanging on his belt. Shryne tried to keep him in focus.
Another board, whirling end-over-end, came out of nowhere, hitting him in the kidneys. Reflexively the hand that was grasping the railing went to the small of his back, and he lost balance. Trying but failing to catch himself, he fell through space.Give in the wooden floor saved his life, but at the expense of all the bones in his left arm and shoulder.Above him Vader jumped from the bridge, dropping to the floor with a grace he hadn't displayed before and alighting just meters away. -Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader  


He can destroy a force user's mind. Force user's have a natural protection against the telepathic attacks of other force users. This doenst just require power, it also requires skill. The natural protection can be augmented at user's will, making it much stronger than before, but Vader still destroyed his mind.

“You want me to find Jax Pavan for you,” Nick said. “I won’t do it.” His voice shook a little, but he got the words out.
Vader stepped closer to him. "I think you will. In fact, I know you will. You are brave; your record makes that clear. You do not fear death." He raised his left hand, index finger slightly extended, as if making a point. "But there are far worse things than mere death ...".
And before Nick realized what was going on, the Dark Lord was somehow inside his head, a dark shadow interrupting the flow of his thoughts. The shadow seemed to expand...Nick screamed, and fell into a blackness even more perfect than the eyes of Darth Vader.
--
Rhinann took Nick Rostu down to the hangar bay. Rostu was conscious, but silent, staring into the distance. Rhinann had become somewhat familiar with human facial expressions and body language, and he could tell that Rostu had seen or heard something that had nearly stunned him into a vegetative state. Rhinann shuddered, trying not to think about what horrors Vader had imparted to the human. Whatever they had been, they had left him in such shock that the forcecuffs he was wearing seemed almost superfluous.
--
His mind felt like it had been punched full of holes—holes that let conscious thoughts drain from it as fast as they popped into existence. Or maybe it was just that the thoughts were too horrible to hold on to for any length of time.
--
It was the human, Rostu, who had been the stick that broke the bantha’s back. After Rhinann had sent him on his way in the freighter, the Elomin had had time to speculate on whatever Vader had done to him to cause such a state of fear and despair in a hardened guerrilla warrior. -Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight


Vader can reach out to people who are forcefully hiding themselves, from across the galaxy, without even knowing where they are. There are feats of Sith contacting other across the galaxy as well, and while this may seem way less impressive, one must keep in mind that when said Sith do that, their sith lackeys werent masking their presence, and werent in the farthest places in the galaxy, specially so that they could not be found. They reached out back at their master, bettering the connection, and letting their guard down so that they could listen to what he has to say, making their master's job much easier, while Roan did the exact opposite.

The moon was arid Jaguada’s sole companion in a desolate system slaved to a dying star, far from major hyperlanes. The fact that remote Jaguada should host a garrison of clone troopers in the desert planet’s modest population center struck Shryne as something of a mystery. But the troopers’ presence could owe to plans to salvage the Separatist war machines that had been left abandoned on the moon, as troopers were known to be doing in numerous Outer Rim systems.
--
Behind Armand Isard and the two Internal Security Bureau technicians seated at the Temple beacon control console, Vader stood with his arms folded across his chest, Commander Appo at his right hand.
“I want to know how the beacon was accessed,” Vader said.
“By means of a Jedi transceiver, Lord Vader,” the tech closest to Armand said.
“Cross-check the transceiver code with the identity database,” the ISB chief said, anticipating Vader.
“The name should be coming up in a moment,” the other tech said, eyes glued to rapidly scrolling text on one of the display screens. “Chatak,” he added a moment later. “Bol Chatak.”
The sound of Vader’s breathing filled the ensuing silence.
Shryne and Starstone, he thought. Obviously they had been in possession of Chatak’s beacon transceiver when they had evaded him at Murkhana. Now they were attempting to determine the location of other Jedi when Order Sixty-Six had been issued. Certainly they were hoping to establish contact with survivors, hoping to pick up the pieces of their shattered order.
And… what?
Devise their revenge? Unlikely, since that would entail calling on the dark side. Formulate a plan to kill the Emperor? Perhaps. Although, ignorant of the fact that Palpatine was a Sith, they would not plot an assassination. So perhaps they were contemplating an attack on the Emperor’s enforcer?
Vader considered reaching out to Shryne through the Force, but rejected the idea.
“What is the source of the transmission?” he asked finally.
“The Jaguada system, Lord Vader,” the first technician said. “More precisely, the moon of the system’s only inhabited world.”
A large holomap of the galaxy emerged from the console’s holoprojector. Linked to myriad databases throughout the Temple, the map made use of a palette of colors to indicate trouble spots. Just now, in preservation of the moment Order Sixty-Six had been executed, more than two hundred worlds glowed blood red.
Perhaps this explained why Sidious hadn’t had the Temple dismantled, Vader thought. So he could regard it from his lofty new throne room and gloat. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


The Force Unleashed. More or less 17 and half years later, with a much more skilled Vader in mind this time around.


Vader reads Galen's emotions and thoughts from a hologram, from very far away. Per the same reasons mentioned above when talking about Nick Rostu, this is impressive because Galen too had a natural protection against telepathy, and since Gale is far, far more powerful than Nick, i can safely say that his natural shields are much, much, much stronger than Nick's as well. He may have also tried to stop Vader, which, obviously in this in case, failed.

https://youtu.be/fdBF95J0MTY (1:45)


The Force Unleashed 2. From this point on, Vader is remarkably superior to his previous incarnation. Starkiller makes note of this, as well.


Not only is he the best duelist around right now (likely one of the best ones ever), he is actually an even better force user. I dont need to say how impressive this is. To put this into context, imagine if Magnus Carlsen, the best chess player alive right, was actually better at playing League Of Legends than he is at playing chess. Magnus is, honestly speaking, easily the best chess player alive right now. He is honestly the one in a million in the world's history at playing chess, and yet, thats not even what he is actually even good at. Thats more or less what this accolade represents/means/shows.

Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder. - Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prime Official Game Guide


He can, quite effortlessly, use the force mid duel to make his opponents miss their attacks. He was not only being attacked by two lightsabers at the same, he also made his move at the last minute, to easily throw Starkiller's attack off his target. This actually shows great precognition as well, as he, like i said, had to move at the last moment, while not caring about Starkiller's attacks at all, he also knew when and how to defend himself, while using telekinesis to move stuff around at the same time. I have not actually seen another character do this, so if someone has, please inform me.

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying. - The Force Unleashed 2  


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A New Hope.


His Sith powers make him virtually invincible. I have previously mentioned this as well, and its impressive because that would mean that, of all the beings roaming this galaxy, barely any can actually beat him. The ones that do have a chance at beating him, would likely lose more than they would win, and at best, would evenly match Vader, as he is more powerful than any other being not named Palpatine, and probably even more knowledgeable.

Clad in flowing black robes, protective armor, and a grotesque, combined breath mask and helmet, the imposing figure of Darth Vader was feared throughout the Empire. Utterly ruthless, his Sith powers made him virtually invincible. - Star Wars Fact File 3 


His mastery is one of the main things that makes him the second strongest being on the galaxy. This may indirectly be saying that he is also the second most skilled dark sider around as well. Impressive, as this makes him more skilled than Gethzerion, Exar Kun, Mark Ragnos (the last two are both spirits, who can affect the world of the living, and still use the force), Joruus (easily one of the most skilled Jedi around, before he got much better), Darth Krayt, Xoxaan, Karness Muur, the Sorcerers of Rhand, Cronal (who is known as the best seer alive, probably ever. He can see whatever future he wants, whenever he wants, far better than even Palpatine himself) 

Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself. - http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp


He is as formidable as Sidious himself. He is clearly is not as skilled as Sidious, but this shows that the disparity in skill between the two is not nearly as big as people think it is.

Once Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the black-cloaked Darth Sidious has fulfilled his masterful plan and taken control of the entire galaxy, with the equally formidable Dark Lord of the Sith by his side. - Galactic Files: Emperor Palpatine


He is said to be a full blown master of the Dark side many, many, many times over. This corroborates the fact that he did master the dark side abilities i talked about before. Sidious thought that for one to be a true sith, and true master of the force, one would have to learn everything, about everything, from everyone, for as long as one could. Sidious is the one who trained Vader, and Sidious is the one whom Vader wanted to kill, so i believe its somewhat obvious that for Vader to kill Sidious, he would need to learn how to counter what Sidious had in his arsenal, not to mention him learning said abilities himself. He did this, like i said, in 20 years (max 33 years), while it took Sidious more than 35 years to do so. 

Vader. The thought of him made Tash's skin crawl. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith, a master of the dark side of the Force and, next to the Emperor, the most powerful man in the galaxy. - Galaxy Of Fear: Army Of Terror


However, even Vader's considerable powers and mastery of the dark side could not stop a young Rebel pilot, himself strong with the Force, from destroying the Empire's greatest weapon. - Star Wars Sourcebook


He is Emperor Palpatine's Sith apprentice and a fierce military leader. He is feared throughout the galaxy for his mastery of the dark side of the Force. - Star Wars Collection   


Answering only to the Emperor, Darth Vader uses fear, terror, and mastery of the dark side of the Force to destroy the Empire's enemies. Despite his loyalty to his master, Vader retains some connection to the light side and the Jedi he used to be. - Star Wars Force Collection


Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, was the scourge of the Jedi, a master of the dark side of the Force, and one of the Emperor's most trusted servants. - Star Wars Databank (Old): Darth Vader 


You are Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, master of the Dark Side of the Force. - Lightsaber Dueling Pack: Darth Vader 


Anakin had become Darth Vader, master of the dark side and Dark Lord of the Sith.
--
As a Master of the dark side of the Force, Vader was expert at wielding a lightsaber. - The Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook: The Galatic Empire.


Before Joruus C'baoth come out of his seclusion to threaten the New Republic, Luke Skywalker had to face perhaps the ultimate masters of the Dark Side, Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. - Heir To The Empire Sourcebook


https://www.writeurl.com/text/t9p85g1b2h76lw9ghqzb/7bp7c10vfjefqmqld1t2



He can force choke people from across the galaxy. He can do stuff like this without hand movements too. I believe that the only person whom i remember doing this to have been Sidious himself.

Xizor turned toward the hologram of the dark-caped figure-an intimidatingly life-sized image, transmitted from the Devastator, Lord Vader's personal flagship. Standing against Vader-even in this insubstantial form-was like facing radiation hard enough to strip flesh from bone. Not for the first time Xizor felt an invisible hand settle around his throat. His own willpower kept the breath sliding in and out of his lungs. - Bounty Hunter Wars 


High probability of Vader knowing sorcery and alchemy. Why? He has done many illusions before, to people all over the galaxy, often times while he is not even there, some of them being quite realistic too. Sorcery is one of the main sources of these illusions, aside from basic mind control. The difference is that Sorcery makes much more potent illusions. Another thing that supports his knowledge of Sorcery is his study of Sorzus Syn's teachings, who was one of the most skilled force users in the verse, more skilled even than Karness Muur. Her sorcery was of the highest quality too. Yet again, this also supports the idea that Vader knew Alchemy as well, as Syn was known as the one who created the Muur and Dreypa talismans, which makes me think that she's likely better than both of them in her use of alchemy and sorcery. We know that he mastered the dark, meaning that he mastered's Syn's teachings as well. Both alchemy and and sorcery require extremely control and mastery of the dark side. 

But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. - Darth Plagueis 


Much later, one of the pupils returned. He told us that Obi-Wan and the Jedi were destroyed—by his hand—then, he invoked our oath and made Skye an Imperial satrapy, to be ruled in his name by Kharys, to whom he gave a portion of his knowledge and powers. That man was Darth Vader. Star Wars Annual 1: The Long Hunt 


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The Empire Strikes Back. Not much for me to work with here, unfortunately, but this was not a surprise for me.


Vader is more formidable than before, by a good bit too. This means he is, in all senses of the word, better than before. This would include his control/skill with the force.

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. - Insider #62


Return Of The Jedi


Vader is more skillful, deadly, and invincible than ever before. Second statement that calls him invincible, so thats quite good.

Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! - Return Of The Jedi Comic 


Vader can rip information out of Luke's mind very easily, without any effort. Vader said Luke was the strongest of the jedi he ever fought, making him more powerful than Obi Wan, making Luke's natural defenses even higher. Luke was trying to defend his mind the whole time as well, making said natural defenses much, much stronger than before. 

“Give yourself to the dark side, Luke,” he entreated. “It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you, son. Your feelings for them are strong, especially for—“ Vader stopped. He sensed something.
Luke withdrew further into shadow. He tried to hide, but there was no way to hide what was in his mind—Leia was in pain. Her agony cried to him now, and his spirit cried with her. He tried to shut it out, to shut it up, but the cry was loud, and he couldn't stifle it, couldn't leave it alone, had to cradle it openly, to give it solace. Vader's consciousness invaded that private place. “No!” screamed Luke.
Vader was incredulous. “Sister? Sister!” he bellowed. “Your feelings have now betrayed her, too... Twins!” he roared triumphantly. “Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.” - Return Of The Jedi


Then, Vader and Palpatine both gained access to Luke's innermost thoughts, those that protected his sister, Princess Leia Organa. - The Essential Guide To Characters


This is it for now. As per the usual, if i missed something, just tell me. Now some scaling chain


At worst:

ROTJ Vader (more skilled, deadly, and invincible than before; can rip information out of a force user's head who is stronger than Obi Wan, very easily) > ESB Vader (far more formidable than before, making him far more skilled as well) > ANH Vader (his skill and powers in the force make him not only the second strongest being in the galaxy, they also make him virtually invincible; as formidable as Sidious, insinuating small discrepancy between their skill; an all out master of the dark side, like the second best too; mastered alchemy and sorcery, something only the most skilled force users can do; can force choke people across the galaxy very casually) > TFU2 Vader (effortlessly use the force mid duel, while seemingly even distracted; is more skilled with the force than he is with a lightsaber, while being the best lightsaber duelist around) > TFU1 Vader (can easily read Galen's mind from very far away, while Galen resisted) > 18 BBY Vader (can move things without hand movements, while mentally hindered; can destroys a force users mind who resisted; talk to people from across the galaxy, easily, while said people are forcefully hiding themselves) > 19 BBY Vader (even more skilled than before; started his lessons, which are incredibly advanced) > ROTS Vader (better skills than all sith before him; unparalleled at what he can do)

I used 7 of these (>) right here


ROTJ Vader >>>>>>> ROTS Vader 


At best:

ROTJ Vader (more skilled, deadly, and invincible than before; can rip information out of a force user's head who is stronger than Obi Wan, very easily) > ESB Vader (far more formidable than before, making him far more skilled as well) >> ANH Vader (his skill and powers in the force make him not only the second strongest being in the galaxy, they also make him virtually invincible; as formidable as Sidious, insinuating small discrepancy between their skill; an all out master of the dark side, like the second best too; mastered alchemy and sorcery, something only the most skilled force users can do; can force choke people across the galaxy very casually) > TFU2 Vader (effortlessly use the force mid duel, while seemingly even distracted; is more skilled with the force than he is with a lightsaber, while being the best lightsaber duelist around) >> TFU1 Vader (can easily read Galen's mind from very far away, while Galen resisted) >>> 18 BBY Vader (can move things without hand movements, while mentally hindered; can destroys a force users mind who resisted; talk to people from across the galaxy, easily, while said people are forcefully hiding themselves) > 19 BBY Vader (even more skilled than before; started his lessons, which are incredibly advanced) > ROTS Vader (better skills than all sith before him; unparalleled at what he can do)

I used 10 of these (>) right here


ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>>>> ROTS Vader


Last edited by lorenzo.r.2nd on December 28th 2019, 3:44 pm; edited 4 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on December 20th 2019, 4:19 pm
SPEED 


While there are no exact statements that i could find, it is obviously the case that Vader, after Mustafar, lost a lot of the speed he previously had. Vader is not slow. He is actually one of the faster characters around. He gets some low balling because he gets tagged by slower people, he got outsped by Luke, or gets called slow by Jedi often times.


- Getting tagged by slower characters happens 99% during his first or second year in his suit, most of time when there is more than 1 enemy, or when he gets caught by surprise, and often times when he is mentally unstable.


- Luke is by no means slow. He is actually deceptively fast. For one, he could put his force shields up against Palpatine, iirc, before the light could even hit him. This was a Luke caught completely off guard. For him to have been faster that a Vader faster than TFU2 Vader, he would have had to have been faster than Starkiller as well. Actually, he would have been faster than pretty much all of Vader's opponents by this point.


- I believe that all Jedi that called him that are now dead, but regardless of that, mocking is a very, very useful tool in star wars. I cannot stress that fact enough to be honest.


19 BBY


First things first, he is often is portrayed as slow because the suit/armor is quite heavy, alongside his mechanic limbs, which in the end also makes him very stiff, like knights in medieval times. The limbs dont restrict his movements nearly as badly as the armor and life support does, by the way, but in the end, it all amounts to a 45 y/o man with heavy asthma who wont take his armor off. He is heavy (265 pounds or 120 kg); his mask doenst let him see nearly as much around him as a normal human sees; his helmet restricts his neck movement by a lot (cannot look at his own feet, or turn his head much more than 45 degrees, left or right); his whole body makes it dangerous for him to lean in any direction because of the risk of falling; he cannot raise his arms above his shoulders because of his shoulder armor, and for him to actually do so would need for him to lean his body; he cannot move at tops speeds for too long without getting tired too fast, and without the use of the force, among a few other things that i might have forgotten. Agility does not translate to speed, nor to skill. It means that his range of movement is not nearly as much of a normal human. This does not mean that he cannot be fast, or be skilled; that he cant jump or dodge. It means that its harder for him to do so, but he can still do it nonetheless. Now that we are done with this, we get into some accolades.


While the armor is in fact heavy, it actually makes him incredibly fast and strong even without the use of the force. The force is the only thing that actually made Anakin is strong and as fast as before. His normal body is nothing compared to Vader's mechanical limbs. Adding force augmentation to it, and one gets a Vader who can move faster than Jedi can see or react to, crazy good reaction time, and physicals that match Anakin's at his best. 

Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles, providing him with great mobility and strength despite his severely damaged muscles and nerves. - The New Essential Guide To Weapons And Technology 


Destroyer of the Jedi Order, the Emperor's personal enforcer, Darth Vader, had overcome the physical restrictions from the injuries he had received in his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi, and from the bulky armor he had to wear to stay alive. - The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 8 


It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda. - The Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833418-tlp.jpg


"He is a former associate, yes, but --"
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart. - Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon 


He'd stood by and watched, too slow to react, as Darth Vader had casually flipped his lightsaber and ran it through his best friend, his partner, Roan Lands. Last Of The Jedi: Against The Empire


This was it, then. The final confrontation.
He was ready. His rage was ice and fire.
He charged.
His first blow was easily parried. He came at Vader again. Again. Circling, jumping, vaulting past him, turning. Each time his lightsaber came toward him, it was eilher deflected in a shock that ran up his arm, Vader simply wasn't there.
---
Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air. - Last Of The Jedi: Reckoning


Vader leapt, his powerful prosthetic legs carrying him to the top of a broad but short flight of steps in time to see Shryne sprint across the bridge at Jedi speed, motioning to his accomplices to move Zar through the gate.
Vader leapt again, this time to the bridge, and to within only a few meters of Shryne, who spun about, dropping to one knee and firing repeatedly. This time Vader decided to show Shryne whom he was dealing with. Holding his lightsaber to one side, he raised his right hand to absorb the blaster bolts.
Clearly astonished, Shryne remained on one knee, but only briefly. In an instant he had passed through the gate and was shouldering his way through the crowd outside the wall.
Vader's final leap landed him just short of the rampart. Over the heads of the milling beings, at the forward edge of a landing platform, a woman with gray-laced black hair was gesturing frantically to Shryne and his cohorts, who were already hauling Fang Zar up the platform steps.
All too easy, Vader told himself.
Time to end it. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


For an instant it seemed that the blade was going to pass clear through Vader's knees, but Vader leapt high, half twisting in midair and coming down behind Shryne. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Wings uplifted, the shuttle made a rough landing on the tier, bolts from Wookiee blasters careening from the fuselage. When the boarding ramp had extended, Appo and his stormtroopers hurried outside, Vader right behind him, his ignited blade deflecting fire from all sides. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip. Spinning, Shryne regained his balance and raced forward, feinting a diagonal slash from the left, then twisting the blade around to the right and surging forward. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Her fist never made contact. Raising his right hand and bringing it around in a swift arc, Vader blocked the blow and sent the body behind it flying across the room. As she flew, a startled but still wholly self-aware Sing tucked and rolled. She hit the opposite wall hard, bounced off, landed on her feet, and immediately came at him again.
“The reflexes of an animal,” Vader murmured. His lightsaber hung at his waist. He ignored it, his fingers going nowhere near the weapon. “That’s what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals.”
“Domesticated? I’ll show you who’s domesticated!” She leapt high, kicking out, and in midthrust somehow bent sideways to kick harder with her other leg.
In a movement preternaturally fast, but which somehow looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord’s touch was more of a caress. He was letting her know what he could have done.
Landing in a crouch, a feral expression on her face, she raced at him again, low this time. Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration. She dropped low to the floor and swung her right leg around in a powerful circle sweep. Her intent was to take his legs out from under him. - Coruscant Nights II: Streets Of Shadows


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/6489246-6238708-5392407759-62385.png


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833469-door.jpg


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/5833473-crush.jpg


Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip. Spinning, Shryne regained his balance and raced forward, feinting a diagonal slash from the left, then twisting the blade around to the right and surging forward. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833816-jd.jpg


Much faster than Aurra Sing. Aurra was a jedi, back in the day, who then became a bounty hunter. She was fast enough to fight Qui Gon and padawan Obi Wan, like faster than both as well. Vader could destroy her in a fight, moving at speeds she considered to be preternatural speeds, while all he did was casually duck. He could attack fast enough that she couldnt dodge, without fighting seriously. Simply put, he might be capable of blitzing jedi as fast as Qui Gon and padawan Obi Wan, making him faster than Darth Maul as well. 

It took only a few steps. A little of the Force per-fectly in tune with bands of lithe muscle. In a second one out-thrust fist would be in his face and she would see what that composite armor was made of. She knew of no one who had ever seen what lay beneath that mask. She intended to be the first. Her fist never made contact. Raising his right hand and bringing it around in a swift arc, Vader blocked the blow and sent the body behind it flying across the room. As she flew, a startled but still wholly self-aware Sing tucked and rolled. She hit the opposite wall hard, bounced off, landed on her feet, and imme-diately came at him again.
"The reflexes of an animal," Vader murmured. His lightsaber hung at his waist. He ignored it, his fingers going nowhere near the weapon. "That's what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals."
"Domesticated? I'll show you who's domesticated!" She leapt high, kicking out, and in midthrust somehow bent sideways to kick harder with her other leg.
In a movement preternaturally fast, but which some-how looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord's touch was more of a caress. He was let-ting her know what he could have done. Landing in a crouch, a feral expression on her face, she raced at him again, low this time. Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration. She dropped low to the floor and swung her right leg around in a powerful circle sweep. Her intent was to take his legs out from under him.
She might as well have been trying to cut down a bronzewood tree. At the last instant the Dark Lord thrust both hands downward toward the spinning bounty hunter. A profound surge in the Force rippled through the room. Guards posted at a distance in the hallway nearby were nearly knocked off their feet by it. But the strength of the emanation had not been directed at them. Casually, as if inspecting a new exhibit that had been donated to the Imperial Museum, Vader walked around the now motionless figure on the floor. Aurra Sing lay on her back, unable to move. It was as if a giant weight pressed her down. Seething in impotent rage, she watched the Dark Lord pass through her field of vision and beyond. - Coruscant Nights II: Street Of Shadows



18 BBY


Roan says that Vader is more dangerous than Grievous. This could mean a lot of things, alongside him being faster than Grievous. Grievous is faster than Obi Wan even in Revenge of The Sith. He has blitzed many jedi before, and fight many jedi at the same time as well. He can, iirc, attack 20 times in one second. This is the guy that Vader is faster than. Obviously speaking, no characters bar Sidious, Yoda, and the rest of the Sheev tiers are blitzing him.

“Normally, I’d agree,” Shryne cut in. “But someone new has been added to the mix. A Lord Vader.” When Garrulan didn’t react to the name, he continued. “A sort of black-armored version of Grievous, only more dangerous, and apparently in charge of doing Palpatine’s dirty work.” Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


After Vader kills Roan Shryne, he gains a huge boost in power. This would also make him much faster too.

More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.
--
Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals. -Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


Ferus Olin says that Vader is faster than anybody here has ever seen, aside from Yoda himself. This would make him faster than AOTC Anakin, Obi Wan after Mustafar, and possibly Mace Windu and a lot of other Jedi council members.

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda. - Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon 



TFU 1 


Vader is now likely much faster than before too. He can choke Kota before Kota can even get close to him. Kota is actually quite fast. Iirc, he is faster even than Gale Marek at first, i believe.

Before anyone else could react, Kota whisked the lightsaber from Starkiller's belt and launched himself at the Dark Lord. Vader raised a hand and caught the general telekinetically about the throat. Kota dropped the lightsaber and desperately clutched at the invisible fingers choking him, but the pressure only increased. When his resistance was crushed, Vader threw him bodily toward the stormtroopers and turned his attention elsewhere. -The Force Unleashed


He is too fast for Proxy to even react to, while he was caught by surprise, and was mentally hindered.

As though from a position high above, he watched his Master spin around to face Obi-Wan Kenobi.
The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff’s edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half. -The Force Unleashed


TFU 2 


He is much faster than before, and likely a good bit faster than Starkiller too. He can defends himself casually from Starkiller fastest attacks, using his full force, while being extremely casual. Before this final fight takes place, in the game at least, Vader seems to move fast enough that he can just appear and disappear from place to place very easily, almost like he teleported, when attacking Starkiller.

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.
He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.
Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.
Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.
Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.
But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.
The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.
Juno lying limp in his arms.
The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.
Juno-dead.
He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?
The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind.
--
Starkiller ran past Darth Vader to where Juno lay broken on the edge of the cloning spire's roof. Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it. He and his former Master had reacted at the same rime. If Starkiller had moved an instant faster, had a fraction more of a second to think the problem through, he would have pushed Vader just as Vader had pushed Juno, impaling him on the blade before it was whisked away. Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure.
He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her.
"Juno!"
A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief.
Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.
Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.
"Get out of my way. "
"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.
"They are real to me. "
Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.
--
Starkiller knew nothing about the Dark Lord's origins, but he knew what he had become. More monolith than man, his shadow bestrode the Empire, casting darkness wherever it fell. But what was the source of that scourge? What twisted psychology had brought him to where he stood now-risking his life to prevent the clone of his failed apprentice from coming near the body of the woman he had loved?
Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. Where Starkiller had seen hope, where Starkiller had been willing to sacrifice his own destiny to give the woman he had loved a chance to live, his former Master had seen only opportunity for betrayal- for without Juno, what did Starkiller have left to live and fight for? He had no family, friends, or allies. Juno was always intended to be the catalyst for his downfall. Her precipitous attack had merely brought the critical moment forward.
Starkiller saw things very differently. It wasn't Juno who had to die to complete Starkiller's training. It was Darth Vader himself, and he had brought this moment upon himself. Had he been content to let Starkiller go, none of this would have happened. Were he dead or freely searching for Juno, either way, he would never have willingly come back to Kamino. He would have gone anywhere else, and never returned.
Darth Vader simply wouldn't let go. The massive cloning exercise itself was proof of that. He had raised Starkiller to be a monster, and he would let nothing get in the way of achieving that outcome. Not even Starkiller's own death. Even if it took a thousand reincarnations and the death of trillions of innocent people, Darth Vader would not give up. His persistence, his unwillingness to accept defeat, was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness.
All the clones were destroyed. As far as Starkiller knew, he was the last one left-so that was one vision averted, at least. No matter what happened, no version of him would hill foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now.
They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them.
Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate.
Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.
They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled.
Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.
"Let me go, " Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now. "
"You are wrong. I have given you everything. "
"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me. "
"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together. "
There it was, Starkiller thought. That promise again. Surely Darth Vader could see that it meant nothing now, after so many times offered in the past, and none of them fulfilled?
Unless... A deeper layer of understanding presented itself. Unless Darth Vader felt exactly the same as he did.
What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?
"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"
Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?
But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.
Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire's roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.
It needed to end now, or else it might never end.
Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.
Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.
He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces.
Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.
"This is your last chance, " Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller's chest.
Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot.
The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.
Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.
Any rational being would at least consider Vader's offer.
The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he's won.
Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances. "
With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.
The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread out across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.
He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat. -The Force Unleashed 2


ANH


Said to be as formidable as Sidious. Formidable, in this case, means anything combat related, which would include speed. He might not be as fast as Sidious, of course, but this supports the idea that Sidious also cannot blitz him either. Vader catching Sidious off guard (as ridiculous as that sounds) shows that he is fast enough to grab Palpatine before he can react. 

Once Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the black-cloaked Darth Sidious has fulfilled his masterful plan and taken control of the entire galaxy, with the equally formidable Dark Lord of the Sith by his side. -Galactic Files: Emperor Palpatine


Other feats of speed that makes it seem that he teleports. Honestly, i cannot think of another character fast enough to move as if they were teleporting in so many different feats and instances.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833418-tlp.jpg


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/5833451-tlp1.jpg



ESB


Far more formidable than before, implying that he overall far above his ANH self. 

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. -Insider #62


ROTJ


Vader is faster than before, more deadly and invincible too. 

Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! -Return of the Jedi Comic


Luke's superior speed in their final fight might very likely be the cause of Luke's dark side amp, and Vader's mental instability. People dont know this, but Palpatine wanted Luke to win, and for that to happen, he would have done anything in his power. That would consist of: 


- Battle meditation, which would not only make Luke 'better', it would also make Vader 'worse'.

Sith battle meditation was a comparatively rare discipline, though Palpatine, Lumiya and Darth Caedus proved capable of it. - The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


- A possible power amp that Sidious can give other's- this may be a sort of dark side nexus that Sidious has become, or a simple technique that allows him to make other's stronger than before, which is what i believe he did to Sedriss at one point. Either one of them would work just as well, since A) if it was a nexus, it wouldve amped Luke whenever he used the dark side, and it wouldve weakened Vader the more he became a light sider, and B) if it was a simple power amp, Luke wouldve been affected by it whether he used the dark side or not. 

During the Rebellion era, dark side devotees become a bit more open, drawn by the power of the Emperor and their acceptance into his court. They are much easier to find anywhere in the Empire, especially in the Imperial Palace, where their power is focused and augmented by that of the Emperor. - The Dark Side Sourcebook



- Weakening Vader using a power called suppression. This would have made Vader weaker throughout the whole fight.

Though Vader found Rillao had all the makings of a Jedi healer, Hethir possessed Darth Sidious' rare talent to cast a dark side shadow over Force users, dulling their abilities. - Aliens in the Empire Part II


Other things to consider:


- Luke using the dark side would have made him FAR stronger than before. People seem to forget this small fact. Using the dark side was the only thing that actually let him fully Vader, even while Vader had all those disadvantages, and while Luke had all those advantages.


- Luke trained to fight Vader, and Vader only. Vader never expected Luke to have been that skilled, strong, and fast. He completely underestimated Luke, while Luke trained for a whole year, mastering his father's style (which was made for killing and fighting against jedi and force users), which is something that Vader never even knew about.


- Luke thought Vader was holding back on him the whole time.

She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. -The Courtship of Princess Leia


Now that that is over, some scaling chains.


At worse:

ROTJ Vader (faster than before; very likely faster than Luke if he was were at his best) > ESB Vader (far faster than before) > ANH Vader (almost as fast as Sidious; more speed feats in which he seemingly teleports) >TFU2 Vader (can easily and casually block Starkiller's attacks; seemingly fast enough to appear and disappear fast enough that it seems like he teleports) > TFU1 Vader (far faster than Kota and Proxy) > 18 BBY Vader (faster than Grievous; faster than Obi Wan; far faster than before) > 19 BBY Vader (much faster than any normal jedi; far faster than Aurra Sing) > Aurra Sing ~ Padawan Obi Wan > Qui Gon

I used 8 of these (>) right here

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>> Qui Gon


At best: 

ROTJ Vader (faster than before; very likely faster than Luke if he was were at his best) > ESB Vader (far faster than before) >> ANH Vader (almost as fast as Sidious; more speed feats in which he seemingly teleports) > TFU2 Vader (can easily and casually block Starkiller's attacks; seemingly fast enough to appear and disappear fast enough that it seems like he teleports) >> TFU1 Vader (far faster than Kota and Proxy) >>> 18 BBY Vader (faster than Grievous; faster than Obi Wan; far faster than before) >> 19 BBY Vader (much faster than any normal jedi; far faster than Aurra Sing) >>> Aurra Sing ~ Padawan Obi Wan > Qui Gon

I used 15 of these (>) right here

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Qui Gon


Last edited by lorenzo.r.2nd on December 28th 2019, 6:33 pm; edited 7 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on December 20th 2019, 4:20 pm
FORCE ABILITIES to be done
IG
IG
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Level Four

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on January 3rd 2020, 7:05 am
Dude, the amount of > in a thing doesn’t matter lmao. You can’t use that while debating.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on January 3rd 2020, 1:38 pm
doest matter, and cannot be used? now thats debatable, isnt it? unless u know of some rules that i didnt. do u? are there rules to how i use those? do they really not matter? cuz i disagree.
IG
IG
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Level Four

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on January 3rd 2020, 2:37 pm
Not a rule, just stupidity in general. Gaps vary.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

on January 3rd 2020, 3:15 pm
oh ok. better write that down so i dont forget it next time, lol
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Darth Vader's placement Empty Re: Darth Vader's placement

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