Darth Vader and Galen Marek vs Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar

Perfect Synergy between teammates. The Fight takes place in the Theed Hanger.

Mace can solo unless Galen goes ham in which case Mace & Kolar will be enough

Mace can solo

Team 1 every time.

Is this TFU or RotJ Vader?

If Mace Windu sinks into vaapad, he solos. Without vaapad, he can still defeat either combatant on team 1. Given the location, Vader or Galen can probably defeat the B-team with difficulty. Not sure whether Windu wins before the B-team falls though. But given that he has vaapad here, team 2 takes it.

Mace honestly solos if TFU Vader. If ROTJ Vader, it's a lot closer.

Team 2. Mace is too much.

Tbh I may back team 1. If Marek engages Mace, and the latter would be unable to utilize from Vaapad against Marek (who is a Jedi), Marek may actually have a chance of stalemate, even defeating him. Vader would also take down the 3 other masters by himself.

Can someone actually quantify Vader's growth between TFU and RotJ instead of just assuming it was significant because of...reasons?

Prime Mace honestly doesn't need Vaapad, he's just too much anyway. Not sure why people think Mace is about as useless as a knitted condom without Vaapad considering his fight with Sheev and other feats but okay. 

Can someone actually quantify Vader's growth between TFU and RotJ instead of just assuming it was significant because of...reasons?

It can't really be quantified. We know he grew considerably, but beyond that it's not particularly clear. His TP feats are certainly better, but that's about it.

Mace can potentially solo

I would like some reasoning as to why Mace solos.

Not sure why people think Mace is about as useless as a knitted condom without Vaapad considering his fight with Sheev

Where he used Vapaad...

Nobody here has a clue how Vaapad works

StrangerThingsFan77 wrote:I would like some reasoning as to why Mace solos.

Not sure why people think Mace is about as useless as a knitted condom without Vaapad considering his fight with Sheev

Where he used Vapaad...

I was talking about his individual feats in that fight where he was outside of Vaapad but okay then.

CuckedCurry wrote:Nobody here has a clue how Vaapad works

Care to explain us, to the peasants?

BreakofDawn wrote:

StrangerThingsFan77 wrote:I would like some reasoning as to why Mace solos.

Not sure why people think Mace is about as useless as a knitted condom without Vaapad considering his fight with Sheev

Where he used Vapaad...

I was talking about his individual feats in that fight where he was outside of Vaapad but okay then.

Which feats?

Are you talking about Sheev TKing Windu when he was out of Vaapad?

Vaapad is Mace drawing from his own darkness, not that of others. Although external darkness does help with one’s connection to Vaapad, it is not essential. Mace explains in Shatterpoint how he is able to accept his own inner darkness, and that is what is the source of Vaapad. Saying nonsense like “Mace without Vaapad” is like saying Dooku without augmentation. Vaapad is what makes Mace so powerful, not his natural aptitude. We know that his potential is below the likes of Dooku, Kar Vastor, Anakin, Yoda & perhaps even Maul.

Power manifests itself in strange ways, and it is certainly not linear. Vaapad is Mace’s gift, and that is how his potential has manifested itself. Mace is not amazingly talented in a convential sense, and this is echoed in Shatterpoint, Labyrinth of Evil, the ROTS novel, and even his mission with Saesee Tiin. Much like, say, Nejaa Halcyon or Darth Zannah, his power doesn’t stem from raw tk or mass domination, but the ability to connect with the fault lines of the Force and the darkness in his heart. Much like how you wouldn’t say Corran Horn is less powerful than Whie Malreaux just because Whie has better TK, you wouldn’t say Saesee Tiin is more powerful than Mace. Power doesn’t just cover tk. 

We have no idea how powerful Base Mace is with tk, but I would say that he isn’t as conventionally viable as you may believe. I mean, when he was as deep as he could go with Vaapad, he was still painfully outmatched by Darth Sidious with regards to conventional force power.

BreakofDawn wrote:

Can someone actually quantify Vader's growth between TFU and RotJ instead of just assuming it was significant because of...reasons?

It can't really be quantified. We know he grew considerably, but beyond that it's not particularly clear. His TP feats are certainly better, but that's about it.

How is it exactly, that you know Vader grew considerably? Is there a source stating this is the case?

OT: Mace wrecks Vader swiftly while the rest of the team holds off Marek who gets overwhelmed once Mace enters the fold.

KingofBlades wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:

Can someone actually quantify Vader's growth between TFU and RotJ instead of just assuming it was significant because of...reasons?

It can't really be quantified. We know he grew considerably, but beyond that it's not particularly clear. His TP feats are certainly better, but that's about it.

How is it exactly, that you know Vader grew considerably? Is there a source stating this is the case?

More that this wasn't his peak:

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

--Insider 62

Ben was still clutching his lightsaber when he reached an access tunnel that led back to Docking Bay 327. As he entered the tunnel, he sighted a tall, shadowy form at the tunnel's other the end. Even if Ben had never seen Darth Vader's cybernetic incarnation via a HoloNet broadcast on Tatooine, he still would have sensed the power of his former apprentice, now concealed within black armor.

-- The Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

-- A New Hope

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

Almost all of those are in reference to Anakin vs Vader and they're contradicted by Lucas. Insider 62 doesn't suggest he grew (both TFU and ESB can simultaneously be the height of his powers), and while the ROTJ quote does say he grew it doesn't really suggest how much he increased in power. All Force Users increase in power constantly, but we don't just assume MEGAGROWTH unless the quotes state the growth is massive, or if we have comparisons between the characters pre-boost and post-boost self (e.g. they fight character X and get stomped, but come back later and beat character X).

Once again, any arguments for Vader that can’t be oneshot by a GL quote?

I can't be asked to do this anymore. Do and believe what you want.

BreakofDawn wrote:I can't be asked to do this anymore. Do and believe what you want.

Yo... You good?

Mace doesn’t solo, but Jedi teams wins solidly.