Re: Dooku vs. Starkiller

November 24th 2019, 7:43 pm

Greysentinel365 wrote:Dooku

November 24th 2019, 7:56 pm

Zenwolf wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:Nah, you can go first.

Edit: For anybody watching this thread for me and KoB's debate, we've decided we're going to move it over to this thread: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t219-dooku-vs-arcann-vs-caedus-vs-starkiller

I'll be responding to one of his main posts on there after he's had some time to edit it to his satisfaction.

Why not just bring it over here? Since Arcann and Caedus have nothing to do with Dooku and Starkiller?

Kills two birds with one stone for both of us.

November 24th 2019, 9:06 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Great post BoD. I am still leaning towards SK because of TFU II. Marek even as of first game appears to be above Dooku in power. Starkiller is superior to his previous self in every was IIRC.

November 25th 2019, 1:30 am

Simple comparison:

Dooku constantly challenging Yoda through the CW VS Starkiller circumstantially beating Vader two times.

Remembering that the Vader Luke is equal to in the Force and in dueling in ROTJ is "far more formidable" as an opponent compared to TFU Vader.

In other words, ROTJ Luke is "far more formidable" than the Vader who was challenged by Ben Kenobi and even more so compared to the Vader who can compete with Starkiller.

November 25th 2019, 2:12 am

Dooku

November 25th 2019, 2:20 am

Does SK share parity with 19 bby Yoda? I don’t think so.

November 25th 2019, 2:24 am

Meatpants wrote:Simple comparison:

Dooku constantly challenging Yoda through the CW VS Starkiller circumstantially beating Vader two times.

Remembering that the Vader Luke is equal to in the Force and in dueling in ROTJ is "far more formidable" as an opponent compared to TFU Vader.

In other words, ROTJ Luke is "far more formidable" than the Vader who was challenged by Ben Kenobi and even more so compared to the Vader who can compete with Starkiller.

Bold of you to be posting here when you still have SS's and other debates to respond to.

November 25th 2019, 2:55 am

Perhaps, but writing up a small post to contribute to the flow of discussion isn't illegal. Dooku vs. Starkiller - Page 2 228124001

November 25th 2019, 3:07 am

Dooku wins. Comparable in applicable power, greater in mastery, considerably superior swordsmanship. He has every advantage except for *raw* power.

November 25th 2019, 3:47 am

Since when did SK have more raw power than Dooku??

November 25th 2019, 12:07 pm

Dooku, Dooku stomps if Vjun

November 25th 2019, 12:37 pm

Meatpants wrote:Since when did SK have more raw power than Dooku??

He doesn't.

November 25th 2019, 1:08 pm

Meatpants wrote:Simple comparison:

Dooku constantly challenging Yoda through the CW VS Starkiller circumstantially beating Vader two times.

Remembering that the Vader Luke is equal to in the Force and in dueling in ROTJ is "far more formidable" as an opponent compared to TFU Vader.

In other words, ROTJ Luke is "far more formidable" than the Vader who was challenged by Ben Kenobi and even more so compared to the Vader who can compete with Starkiller.

Dooku's performance against Yoda doesn't impress as much as Galen's against TFU Sidious and a hindered Galen and SK defeating Vader impresses me more than any of Dooku's other performances. It's not a terrible fight, I agree, but I can't in good conscience side with Dooku despite him being my favorite character.

November 25th 2019, 1:09 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

Meatpants wrote:Since when did SK have more raw power than Dooku??

He doesn't.

He does. Both by feats and scaling.

November 25th 2019, 3:22 pm

Scaling off of who? Vader, who was far less formidable than his ESB/ROTJ iterations and who was wounded, exhausted and emotionally hindered when SK ragdolled him? Sidious, who tanked Galen's Oneness explosion to the face (with small second degree burns as the maximum amount of damage, I might add) and who was killing him with his lightning despite Galen putting everything he had into the struggle?

November 25th 2019, 3:36 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Wounded? Galen struck Vader's heavily armoured cybernetic limbs and "real blood" only started flowing when he threw the generator at him, there's no indication Vader's Lightsaber cuts affected his Force Power.

Exhausted? I read your posts and absolutely nothing you posted indicated Vader was exhausted.

Emotionally hindered? Baseless speculation, it's never once indicated Galen's Dun Moch (if it can even be called that) combatively affected Vader.

November 25th 2019, 3:38 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:Scaling off of who? Vader, who was far less formidable than his ESB/ROTJ iterations and who was wounded, exhausted and emotionally hindered when SK ragdolled him? Sidious, who tanked Galen's Oneness explosion to the face (with small second degree burns as the maximum amount of damage, I might add) and who was killing him with his lightning despite Galen putting everything he had into the struggle?

Vader was never "emotionally hindered" the only time emotions were a factor for Vader in the fight were when they benefited him when he grew angry at Galen's taunts and it caused him to perform better than he had at any point in the fight prior.

There is nothing to suggest that Vader was exhausted as he performed about as well as he had been for most of the fight prior to Galen actually injuring him. Injuries, especially shallow ones like the ones Vader received, are often shown to aid Darksiders in a fight.

Sidious being injured by an undirected explosion is irrelevant to his struggle with Galen during their Force lock. There is no evidence the lightning was "killing" Galen either. Considering we're discussing this in another thread though, you should probably respond to our current discussion there before starting a new one here.

November 25th 2019, 3:45 pm

Wounded? Galen struck Vader's heavily armoured cybernetic limbs and "real blood" only started flowing when he threw the generator at him, there's no indication Vader's Lightsaber cuts affected his Force Power.

Mate...he got sliced across the throat, across the shoulder, and then took a blade through the thigh. He was literally barely standing:

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

Exhausted? I read your posts and absolutely nothing you posted indicated Vader was exhausted.

So you concede that Starkiller's blades shaking in TFU 2 doesn't prove he was exhausted and is utterly meaningless as an assessment of his exhaustion. Good, makes discussing how he "had never been so exhausted" is clearly hyperbole a lot easier.

Emotionally hindered? Baseless speculation, it's never once indicated Galen's Dun Moch (if it can even be called that) combatively affected Vader.

Riiight...

“I understand you now,” he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. “You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?” The intensity of Darth Vader’s attack redoubled. “I have no father.” The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader’s misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve. Glancing over Darth Vader’s shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill … Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn’t beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Annnnd then as soon as Sk lands a hit with his lightning Vader is unable to focus and bring his full strength to bear like he did here. Vader is emotionally unbalanced at this point, flying into a rage (which has consistently screwed him over throughout Legends) and then is unable to do much against SK as Galen continues to goad him.

November 25th 2019, 3:59 pm

@BreakofDawn

Mate...he got sliced across the throat, across the shoulder, and then took a blade through the thigh. He was literally barely standing:

Your quote doesn't state he was "barely standing." And as I said, the cuts don't mean anything, it's stated absolutely nowhere they hampered his ability to draw on the Force; there's no indication SK's lightsaber even made contact with skin (it's only when he SK throws a generator at him that "real blood" starts to flow).

So you concede that Starkiller's blades shaking in TFU 2 doesn't prove he was exhausted and is utterly meaningless as an assessment of his exhaustion.

??? Galen's shaking in TFU 2 is cited alongside his exhaustion, in total contrast, nowhere is the cause of Vader's shaking mentioned. We don't just assume Vader's exhausted, because it fits your pro-Vader agenda.

Riiight... Annnnd then as soon as Sk lands a hit with his lightning Vader is unable to focus and bring his full strength to bear like he did here. Vader is emotionally unbalanced at this point, flying into a rage (which has consistently screwed him over throughout Legends) and then is unable to do much against SK as Galen continues to goad him.

That doesn't prove he was emotionally unbalanced... The cause for him not being able to do shit against SK is literally explained in the following passage, that being that SK "forced him on the back foot" "with a new strength of his own."

November 25th 2019, 5:09 pm

He got stabbed through the thigh how is that not making contact with skin? :thinking face emoji:

November 26th 2019, 11:21 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Your quote doesn't state he was "barely standing."

It literally says the servos in his prosthetics were whining (note that a sound like a whining in a prosthetic or other similar device generally means a fault has developed that needs to be corrected, or that the machine is under significant stress), indicating that his prosthesis were struggling to cope. It also explicitly says his limbs were "injured".

And as I said, the cuts don't mean anything, it's stated absolutely nowhere they hampered his ability to draw on the Force;

So you don't think being stabbed in the thigh, sliced across the throat and hit in the shoulder wouldn't at all hamper a Force user's being to immediately call upon the Force afterwards? Galen barely gives him a few seconds to recover.

there's no indication SK's lightsaber even made contact with skin (it's only when he SK throws a generator at him that "real blood" starts to flow).

...Seriously?

Vader’s lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice’s blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder.

[i][b]A third stabbed deep into his thigh.
[/b][/i]

[i][b][i][b]servos whining in his injured limbs
[/b][/i][/b][/i]

Lightsabers usually cauterise wounds, so of course it wouldn't draw blood. It doesn't make the injury any more significant (compare a third degree burn to to a stab wound). Speaking as someone who poured boiling water over their finger the other day, you can't judge the severity of an injury by whether it bleeds or not. Vader's injuries are described as leaving his "servos whining in his injured limbs" and with his "lightsaber shaking." It's pretty clear that they had a significant impact on him.

??? Galen's shaking in TFU 2 is cited alongside his exhaustion, in total contrast, nowhere is the cause of Vader's shaking mentioned. We don't just assume Vader's exhausted, because it fits your pro-Vader agenda.

It's pretty clear it's a result of exhaustion or pain. There's no other explanation for his lightsaber hand shaking alongside his "servos whining in his injured limbs". We have this detail preceded by a clear acknowledgement of Vader being injured. If you have another explanation for why his lightsaber was shaking, I'd be interested to hear it.

That doesn't prove he was emotionally unbalanced... The cause for him not being able to do shit against SK is literally explained in the following passage, that being that SK "forced him on the back foot" "with a new strength of his own."

Only the eyes showed the slightest signs of life: blue and full of pain, they stared up at him with undisguised weariness.

Done fighting, even though we've seen Sith keep trying to fight after suffering far worse injuries than what Vader went through.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray. “I don’t hate you,” the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. “I pity you.” With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot.

Has to deal with Galen's mockery and pity (both of which have unbalanced Vader in the past). It's repeatedly noted throughout Legends that Vader is at his most effective when his emotions are under control and disciplined. Enraging him unbalances him and makes him easier to defeat.

It's worth mentioning also that Vader showed the power to break through Galen's Force barrier and choke him. Not something that mismatched opponents can do, and certainly not consistent with Galen ragdolling Vader after heavily injuring him and leaving him with virtually no time to recover before being attacked. Seriously, Galen is only noted to be able to be capable of ragdolling Vader after wounding him and while "Vader prepared for combat again", giving him no time to mount an effective defence while SK had time, a focused mindset and the physical edge (being uninjured).

November 26th 2019, 12:27 pm

Break of dawn, you are doing God’s work