Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

looks good. stomp tho cough

THE POWER OF JEDI KNIGHT ULIC QEL DROMA

Ulic Qel Droma one shots Jacen Solo

Avast...

Warb Nulls armor was strongly imbued with sorcery from an ancient 'Sith Tome'


Null mastered the Dark Side which he combined with his martial prowess


Null possesses all the memories of Nadd and Adas through his armor granting him incredible lightsaber prowess and dark side knowledge

- Hammer wrote:Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.

And Nadd possesses training and skills that took people years to attain including Adas' vast mastery of combat

 

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties wrote:Ruling nearly 3,000 years before the rise of the Galactic Republic, King Adas was a massive, regal being encased in majestic ebon warrior armor. Raised from his youth as a chosen being due to the charcoal pigment of his skin, Adas demonstrated great intelligence, fighting prowess, and a tremendous aptitude for Sith magic. With his alchemically forged battle-ax, Adas led the bloody unification of Korriban's disparate nations and became its undisputed world ruler. The Sith people came to believe that King Adas was immortal and that his reign would be eternal.

And, everything of Sadow's 

Null's armor was discovered thousands of years later in 19BBY by Telloti, a failed Jedi Youngling, who was literally too weak to become a Padawan 

Star Wars Insider 147 - Short Story Hammer wrote:“Why shouldn't he take the armor? It had power. Real power. He could feel the Force like never “before.

even the presence of Null's armour and Lightsaber oozed the force like Telloti had never felt

- Hammer wrote:"As soon as his fingertips touched [Warb Null’s lightsaber] it, a wave of cold air blew over him, through his clothes, his skin, through his very soul. He shivered."

The Armour imbued Teloti like it did Null

- Hammer wrote:"When Telloti opened his eyes again, the helmet was in his hands, poised over his head, its dark iron hood casting a shadow over his blinking eyes. Inside, secret glyphs glowed with orange light, waiting to brand his cheeks, imbue him with their power."

- Hammer wrote:Master Ryelli stood in the door in his brown robes. His lightsaber hummed in his malformed hand. “Take that off, Telloti,” Ryelli urged, a tremor of something in his voice. Fear? It excited him to think a Jedi Master was afraid of him.
“It’s of the Sith. This place… it’s a tomb of some kind. That armor.. it’s infected with the dark side of the Force.”
The dark side? With this kind of power, he could be a hammer to crush the dark side. What did Ryelli know? He had no insight at all. Why shouldn’t he take this armor for himself? It had power in it. Real power. He could feel the Force like never before. With it, he could be a warrior. He could join the war, cut his way through legions of battle droids and take the Count of Serenno’s head, be the hero the Republic needed.

With the power of the armor Teloti stomps an all out Master Ryelli

- Hammer wrote:The armor was like a web of conduits. It drew the Force into him. Telloti felt it surging through his blood vessels, contracting muscles, swinging his arms up to defend the downward stroke of Ryelli’s lightsaber almost before Telloti could even think it. He was fast. So fast. And strong. He drove Ryelli back with shuddering blows. the emerald lightsabers flashed and buzzed as they clashed and were batted aside. inadvertently hewing chucks of glowing stone from the walls.
Telloti grinned ecstatically behind his grim metal face. His heart thundered.
Ryelli seemed so small now. Was he himself larger? He felt immense. Ryelli’s blade skimmed his shoulder, sending sparks cascading into the air. He laughed. He hadn’t even felt it. He forced Ryelli out into the corridor, and there locked blades with the Jedi Master. Master. What right did he have to that title? This squinting bookworm? This ditch digger? He looked for greatness in small, broken things, and failed to recognize it when it towered over him.

- Hammer wrote:Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.
His bare thumb felt along the length of the two-handed hilt to a small toggle, and as Ryelli forced his superior position, bearing down with all his strength,
Telloti triggered it and sidestepped.
The extra-long green blade of the ancient lightsaber retracted into the hilt. In the same instant, the butt sprang open like the maw of a sarlacc, revealing a hidden, secondary emitter. A blade of red energy erupted from it, the ingenious mechanism within realigning and refocusing the power in a nanosecond.
Without the resistance of the green blade,
Ryelli stumbled forward, dangerously off balance. Telloti shifted his grip and flipped the new red blade over, slicing neatly through the nape of Ryelli's neck. The Jedi Master tumbled to the floor.
Telloti straightened, listening to the sound of his own breathing, feeling his heart pounding deep behind the black shell of his breastplate.

This was only a fraction of the full potency of the Armour 

the armour was not even complete 

-Hammer wrote:There was a crooked molten scar across the neck, and the right arm was missing entirely from the elbow down.

And had lost potency for millennia 

Darth Bane: The Rule Of Two. wrote:They walked slowly along the length of the display cases, Zannah splitting her attention between Hetton's words and the intriguing array of Sith artifacts. She could still feel faint remnants of dark side energy clinging to them: fading memories of the incredible power they once contained.

if the Ancient Sith Dark Side imbued items only possess faint remnants (barely perceptible) of the power they once held, by 990BBY then by 39BBY, after a further 951 years the power Warb Nulls armor once held must be a miniscule fraction of what it once was, 951 further years of degradation from the 'faint remnants'

So the faint remnants of the faint remnants with missing pieces was still enough power to allow a youngling to stomp a Jedi Master

Amped Warb Null + Armour >>> Warb Null + Armour > Warb Nulls Armour > Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation > PT Jedi Master

Yet, Ulic quite literally oneshot blitzed Null baring the full potency of the armor


Ulic actually destroyed Warb Null 

- Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:Fighting past a wall of dark force, Ulic manages to destroy Warb Null.

All while weakened by the 'immeasurable' dark side energies surrounding the area, All while Null is aided by said energies

Star Wars: Insider 27 wrote:The Naddists were aided immeasurably by the mystical up welling of the dark-side power of Freedon Nadd still prevalent throughout Onderon.

that was stronger than anything Arca Jeth had ever felt 

Arca Jeth, Tales of the Jedi Audio Drama wrote:"Dark Side energy, the strongest I've ever felt."

Prime FNU Ulic >> Hindered Ulic >>> Amped Warb Null + Armour >> Warb Null + Armour >> Warb Nulls Armour >>>> Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation >> PT Jedi Master

So Ulic is one-shotting a Dark Side Adept that scales vastly over a PT Jedi Master while Jacen, after all this growth 

Dark Nest: Joiner King wrote:Jaina could not argue. During Jacen's five-year journey, she had felt him growing steadily stronger in the Force-but also more distant and isolated, like a hermit retreating to his mountaintop. At times, he had seemed to vanish into the Force entirely, and at other times she had sworn he was floating just above her shoulder.

11 years after TUF, going all out, is near stalemated by Aurra Sing

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:

Wait.
 
Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
.....
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. 

This is a post prime Aurra 

Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:

"I am curious about how you chose Aurra," Leia said. "She's hardly a well-known killer of Jedi anymore."

"And even if she was, this isn't the kind of job you'd look up an eighty-year-old woman for," Han pointed out.

Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:Aurra Sing had been a ruthless killer of Jedi Knights during the Old Republic.

60 years earlier in more prime condition she is evenly matched by Aayla Secura

Aurra Sing: Databank wrote:The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy façade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. Aurra attacked ferociously, but Aayla bested her.

Being a Jedi Knight, Aayla Secura is by default below Master Ryelli


So if a much more powerful iteration of Jacen is only just scraping by against a post prime Aurra, then a much weaker Jacen is not coming close to her, never mind a more capable iteration of Aurra who is stalemated by Jedi Knight Aayla who is not as powerful as esteemed Master Ryelli who is being stomped by a youngling drawing on faint remnants of faint remnants of Null's incomplete armor, which at full potency with the aid of 'immeasurable' dark side energies + a millennia of combat expertise, succumbed to the might of Ulic Qel Droma weakened by the immeasurable nexus

Prime FNU Ulic >> Nexus Hindered Ulic >>>(one shot gap) Nexus Amped Warb + Armour >> Warb Null + Armour > Warb's Armour > Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation >> (stomp gap) Ryelli >> Aayla  ~ 31 year old  Aurra Sing > 91 year old Post Prime Aurra ~ <40ABY Jacen >> 29ABY TUF Jacen

Kneel before the might of Ulic Qel Droma

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Jacen Solo is one of the strongest Jedi of the New Jedi Order. There are multiple sources that put him above all the other Jedi of the era:

What? he thought blankly. What? Dizzily, blurrily, he worked it out: that guy back there could use the Force--could use it as well as the most powerful of Jedi.

-Ganner Rhysode's thoughts (Traitor)

"Child, listen to me," she shouted to Allana. "Your father understood the beings who transformed this world. Long before you were born we were at war with them, but your father was a force for peace, and his powers were unmatched by those of any other Jedi. He wanted you to grow up in a galaxy free of war. He wanted to protect you at all costs. I want you to reach deep into yourself and find him. As painful as it is, you need to find your father. Stretch out with your feelings. Use the Force!"

-Millennium Falcon

---

Jacen is above Kyp Durron. As evidenced by the above quote as well as Jacen's superior performance against Vong Slayers. Let's compare their respective fights:

Kyp raced for the nearest one, catching the warrior across the chest with a powerful upswing of his blade. The Yuuzhan Vong growled and rolled, but his dark, unarmored flesh showed only a shallow bloodless furrow. Kyp whirled and brought the blade down like an ax. Evading the strike, the warrior rose to one knee and unfurled his amphistaff.

The serpentlike creature elongated and wrapped itself around the hilt of the lightsaber. But Kyp wasn't about to surrender his weapon. In a virtual tug-of-war with the creature, he spun and backflipped, but to little effect. At the same time, a second amphistaff lassoed him around the waist and arms and yanked him roughly to the ground. Han put three bolts into the second warrior, driving him two steps backward with each, but without killing him or persuading the amphistaff to loosen its constricting hold on Kyp. Han yelled for Wraw's help, but in a glance saw that the Bothan was trying desperately to keep the other pair of warriors from grabbing Page.

Without really thinking about it, Leia judged that Han and Kyp were in greater jeopardy. Holding her blade at her right hip and pointed slightly downward, she moved against the warrior whose amphistaff was flinging Kyp from side to side. Han felt rather than saw Leia race past him.

"Leia!" he screamed, firing constantly while he rushed to catch up with her.

A quartet of bolts holed the warrior Leia had targeted. But at once, the other warrior commanded his amphistaff to withdraw from the pommel of Kyp's lightsaber and fly toward Leia. Seeing what was coming, Han dived forward in a frantic attempt to place himself between Leia and the attenuating weapon. Leia watched in horror as the amphistaff struck Han solidly in the neck-and not merely with its rounded head. The jaws of the living weapon gaped, and it sank two long fangs into Han's flesh.

Han landed hard on his side, but quickly got to his knees. He managed to squeeze off three more bolts before the blaster slipped from his trembling hand. He slumped backward on his heels in shock, then tipped to one side, his body curling inward, with his shaking hands close to his chest. Kyp raced forward, only to be set upon by three of the warriors. Leia's mouth fell open in a silent scream.

-The Unifying Force

Jacen took advantage of the gravitic anomaly now, as one of the slayers lunged for him. He leapt high into the air, and the warrior flew under his feet, only to be pulled to the floor facefirst, so that by the time Jacen had twisted in the air and landed he was able to drive his blade into the small of the warrior's back, almost pinioning him to the floor.
--
The short warrior hurried in, his weapon striking at Jacen like a serpent, then stiffening, jabbed him hard in the left forearm, as if to stake the arm to the floor. Jacen twisted out from under the attack, grasping that Luke had again been pressed to the wall. Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim's forehead.
--
Jacen allowed it to coil around his body; then, as the warrior was reeling the weapon in, Jacen hurled his lightsaber deep into the slayer's armpit.

-The Unifying Force

Han, Leia, Kyp, and a couple other operatives failed to defeat 4 Slayers. And those 4 Slayers, along with their weapons were weakened greatly by Alpha Red. On the flip side, Jacen, Luke, and Jaina were able to kill 15 full power Slayers. (Jacen and Luke really. Jaina didn't really do anything.) Jacen managed to kill 5 of them. He performed way better than Kyp did. That, along with the quotes from Traitor and MF, solidifies Jacen's superiority over Kyp.

---

Kyp Durron, many years prior managed to kill a Leviathan whilst unarmed.

-Jedi Academy Leviathan

Leviathans are the children of Tilotny, a demigod. They're made even more powerful through Sith alchemy.

Tilotny’s brood came to be some of the most feared beings in the universe, the ravenous Leviathans, the blasphemous Silans, the ghoulish Barracles and Glooths, the fearsome Faroe and Apollyon, the predatory Schinga, the hideous Nharqis'Al, and others who retained the all-consuming fear and hatred for life bequeathed from their mother, so that they became receptacles of the dark side, drawing sustenance from the life-energies of the living. The Sith Lords would later augment these creatures, making them even more powerful.

-Supernatural Encounters

They are the culmination of Sorzus Syn's creatures. They are the most powerful of her creatures. They were able to kill countless Jedi and splinter their barricade. They are nature advanced to perfection.

-The Book of Sith

Exar Kun struggles with a Sith Wyrm (which are inferior to Leviathans), he is only able to beat it with the power of a Sith amulet.

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith

---

Exar around this point is an equal to Ulic.

As the Jedi departed, a stranger strode confidently into the halls of the Iron Citadel. Flanked by Massassi guards stood Exar Kun, former Jedi and now Sith initiate. As the Krath had been unraveling their plan of galactic conquest, Kun had followed his own path into the darkness. A path that brought him to the Sith world of Korriban, and the Sith stronghold on Yavin Four. Now, he sought out the only other Sith practitioner who could challenge him -- Ulic Qel Droma.

-Databank - Qel-Droma, Ulic

Among the Krath, Exar Kun came face to face with another fallen Jedi, whose strength matched his own - Ulic Qel-Droma.

- SWTOR - Timeline - The Exar Kun War

Ulic has grown since the Uprising. Along with that, he got more powerful when he turned to the dark side

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith

(Chain for this is at the end. Stay tuned.)

---

Now to address some of your points:

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Vaelias wrote:Null's armor was discovered thousands of years later in 19BBY by Telloti, a failed Jedi Youngling, who was literally too weak to become a Padawan

Not at all. Telloti was merely just not chosen. It wasn't because he was weak. Hell... he beat the person who was chosen over him. Among others. He was average to above average in power and skill:

-Hammer

---

Vaelias wrote:With the power of the armor Teloti stomps an all out Master Ryelli

NO. HE. DID. NOT. It was not even close to an all out stomp. In fact.... Ryelli forced him back. Telloti only won through Null's lightsaber's secret blade. He would have died were it not for that. He only won because of that trick. Ryelli is outright stated to be stronger.

-Hammer

---

Vaelias wrote:the armour was not even complete

The armor was only missing the right arm.

---

Vaelias wrote:And had lost potency for millennia
--
if the Ancient Sith Dark Side imbued items only possess faint remnants (barely perceptible) of the power they once held, by 990BBY then by 39BBY, after a further 951 years the power Warb Nulls armor once held must be a miniscule fraction of what it once was, 951 further years of degradation from the 'faint remnants'
So the faint remnants of the faint remnants with missing pieces was still enough power to allow a youngling to stomp a Jedi Master

Wrong. Objects touched by alchemical science don't degrade. As shown by The Book of Sith. Even if they did, there is no evidence that Null's armor degraded by that much. Plus one thing to understand is that the quote in the Bane Trilogy can be referring to the artifacts in conjunction with its user when it says "fading memories of the incredible power they once contained." So no. Null's armor isn't a shadow of its former self by any means.

-The Book of Sith

---

Vaelias wrote:11 years after TUF, going all out, is near stalemated by Aurra Sing

Ah, the ever popular Aurra scaling. The entire passage you posted hardly helps you. It's the most circumstantial fight ever. He was not going all out with his power. He was trying to mentally dominate her to keep the damage around them minimal. And his struggle to do so was not entirely due to her power. We know that some characters have a resistance to persuasion. Even non force sensitives:

This fight does little for your case.

---

Vaelias wrote:This is a post prime Aurra

The first quote you posted is purely from Han and Leia's perspective and they're talking about her reputation, not power. Also Aurra isn't human. Her species' life span is probably way longer than humans. There isn't much to say she's post prime.

---

Vaelias wrote:60 years earlier in more prime condition she is evenly matched by Aayla Secura
--
Being a Jedi Knight, Aayla Secura is by default below Master Ryelli

Wrong. She was among the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis. And she's regarded as one of the greatest and strongest Jedi in the order. She is NOT below Ryelli. She may be around his tier or greater.

-Dark Horse

-Fact File 102

-Insider 62

---

Vaelias wrote:So if a much more powerful iteration of Jacen is only just scraping by against a post prime Aurra, then a much weaker Jacen is not coming close to her, never mind a more capable iteration of Aurra who is stalemated by Jedi Knight Aayla who is not as powerful as esteemed Master Ryelli who is being stomped by a youngling drawing on faint remnants of faint remnants of Null's incomplete armor, which at full potency with the aid of 'immeasurable' dark side energies + a millennia of combat expertise, succumbed to the might of Ulic Qel Droma weakened by the immeasurable nexus

Prime FNU Ulic >> Nexus Hindered Ulic >>>(one shot gap) Nexus Amped Warb + Armour >> Warb Null + Armour > Warb's Armour > Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation >> (stomp gap) Ryelli >> Aayla  ~ 31 year old  Aurra Sing > 91 year old Post Prime Aurra ~ <40ABY Jacen >> 29ABY TUF Jacen

Here's a correction to your chain:

Telloti < < < Armored Telloti < ~ Ryelli
And here's the correct chain:

And as promised, here's the final, correct chain:

Jacen Solo > > NJO Kyp > > Leviathan Kyp > Leviathan > > Sith Wyrm > ~ DLOTS Exar ~ Dark Side Ulic > > Nadd Uprising Ulic

---

Characters: 3567

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nice bro

ALL HAIL THE FALLEN KNIGHT

I shall start by addressing your rebuttals and the move onto my own

RNG wrote:Not at all. Telloti was merely just not chosen. It wasn't because he was weak. Hell... he beat the person who was chosen over him. Among others. He was average to above average in power and skill:

The point here is that he was Youngling Level, and not chosen to be a Padawan, so yeh average or above average, but for a Youngling. furthermore Telloti is directly stated to have failed his Apprentice trial 

RNG wrote:NO. HE. DID. NOT. It was not even close to an all out stomp. In fact.... Ryelli forced him back. Telloti only won through Null's lightsaber's secret blade. He would have died were it not for that. He only won because of that trick. Ryelli is outright stated to be stronger.

Perhaps stomped was the wrong word, but Telloti was definitely in the dominant position the entire fight, first blocking Ryelli's blows easily and in an instant before he can even think about it, compared to Ryelli, he was so fast and so strong 



and forcing back Ryelli, controlling most of the fight


within the context of the quote that notes Ryelli as being stronger it is clear that it is in reference to his physical strength and not force power

Hammer wrote:Ryelli's blade angled ever closer, forcing the great two handed lightsaber of Warb Null down. Telloti's left knee buckled and clanged against the stone floor, the archeologist was stronger

The fact that Ryelli is forcing Telloti's saber down implies this is purely a physical strength advantage made further evident by the amount of times the armor is stressed to be super powerful, like nothing Telloti had ever felt which would include any Jedi Telloti had ever encountered anywhere, not just Ryelli 

Telloti spent some time with Master Piell

A member of the Jedi high council, one of the greatest masters of the order

for which Piell fought many battles


despite this Telloti maintains that the miniscule amount of power remaining in Nulls armor is, in comparison, 'real power' and stronger than he has ever felt

so not only is the power greater than Master Ryelli, its more powerful than High Council Master Piell

indeed this is further demonstrated when Telloti demonstrates enough speed to swiftly evade a full strength strike from Ryelli, despite him having the dominant position

Hammer wrote:His bare thumb felt along the length of the two-handed hilt to a small toggle, and as Ryelli forced his superior position, bearing down with all his strength,

Telloti triggered it and sidestepped.

It was no trick, Malleus outperformed Ryelli except for a brief moment due to a physical strength edge

but lets say it that it is indeed talking about power, then this duel would seem more evenly matched, the armor is still more powerful than Council Master Piell, so that would just boost Ryelli to council master level, strengthening the case that he is undoubtedly more powerful than Aayla 

and we don't really need anything more than proximity for this scaling to work so either way this works in my favor 

Next...

RNG wrote:The armor was only missing the right arm.

and a massive gash on his neck 

Hammer wrote:There was a crooked molten scar across the neck, and the right arm was missing entirely from the elbow down.

-

RNG wrote:Wrong. Objects touched by alchemical science don't degrade. As shown by The Book of Sith

This quote you provided does not preclude the notion that imbued objects still decay, lets take a look at it...




Yes it will becomes force sensitive, forever retaining a mirror imprint of its forger, as the armor demonstrably does... 

Hammer wrote:Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith

all this means is that it will forever be imprinted with these traits, not that it will forever be as strong in the dark side, as I proved in my last post, Hettons collection in RoT is direct proof of this

Rule of Two wrote:She could still feel faint remnants of dark side energy clinging to them: fading memories of the incredible power they once contained.

And Null's armor has even more degradation than these artifacts that only possess 'fading memories of incredible power'

RNG wrote: Even if they did, there is no evidence that Null's armor degraded by that much. 

the default assumption is that Null's armor acts the same as any other imbued item, I don't need evidence for that

RNG wrote:Plus one thing to understand is that the quote in the Bane Trilogy can be referring to the artifacts in conjunction with its user when it says "fading memories of the incredible power they once contained."

Citation needed

RNG wrote:Ah, the ever popular Aurra scaling. The entire passage you posted hardly helps you. It's the most circumstantial fight ever. He was not going all out with his power. He was trying to mentally dominate her to keep the damage around them minimal. And his struggle to do so was not entirely due to her power. We know that some characters have a resistance to persuasion. Even non force sensitives

Yes and he Opened himself fully to the force and was using the power of his anger, fear and hatred and all his concentration in doing so, add to that Jacen had the element of surprise 

Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free.

Given that Jacen had the element of surprise on Sing here and once in control needed to go all out and maintain his full concentration on her heavily suggests he would not be able to do this had he not caught her off guard, I might be able to jump out on a professional fighter and pin him down and keep him there, but I'm not going to be able to tap him on the shoulder and then take him down and keep him down easily, he was still holding her, but a simple lapse of his tense concentration and she was able to break the connection, this just goes to show the proximity between the two, ultimately he failed to crush her force presence despite his best efforts. and proximity is all we need for the scaling to work.

RNG wrote:The first quote you posted is purely from Han and Leia's perspective and they're talking about her reputation, not power. Also Aurra isn't human. Her species' life span is probably way longer than humans. There isn't much to say she's post prime.

Right so lets take a look at the evidence in more detail and dispel the silly notion that Aurra did not decline

Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:

"I am curious about how you chose Aurra," Leia said. "She's hardly a well-known killer of Jedi anymore."

"And even if she was, this isn't the kind of job you'd look up an eighty-year-old woman for," Han pointed out.

 Aurra she will have been largely inactive in recent times and is hardly known anymore per Leia, even as early as 18BBY over 58 years prior to Tempest Aurra is stated to be declining due to this

Coruscant Nights wrote:After all, one did not secure the release from prison of one of the galaxy’s most feared and formidable bounty hunters in order to have floral arrangements designed. For almost as long as Aurra Sing could remember it had been the thrill of the hunt that had kept her alive, that had given her a reason to progress from one day to the next. It was only when she relied solely on her own skills, her superb reflexes and unique training, that she felt anything even approaching a level of personal comfort. She had relied on nothing else for so long …

--

As Sing dumped her own load of plates into another tube, she kept her senses on full alert. Her connection to the Force would warn her of any imminent assault, sometimes even before it was initiated. That, and her deadly reputation, had kept her alive all these months in this rancor pit. Both would continue to do so. Or so she thought … The attack, when it came, was thus doubly surprising—first that anyone would dare attack her at all, and second because the Force had not warned her of it. Fortunately, that enigmatic energy was not her only ally. Even though the misbegotten Jedi flooz Aayla Secura had cut the antenna of her biocomputer implant, it still was capable of sensing danger at close range. That was what warned her now, barely in time, of the Trandoshan with the shiv who was lunging at her from behind.

Not only this but Leia refers to her as an 80 year old woman, an implication that she is now aging and within the context implies that its surprising she is still down for the job despite being an 80 year old woman, and indeed may be a reason for her inactivity, in fact, Aurra is directly stated to be aging 



She ages the same as a regular human, she is stated to be 'aging' during the OT in the above quote, but also is born in 51BBY, in TPM (32BBY) she is 19 Years old, and indeed does appear to be so:


By the time of TCW she is 30, its clear she aged

Aurra is aging as a normal human would

as is Darish Vol, who is 12 years younger than Sing yet is struggling with his age, by the same author 

Fate of the Jedi Ascension wrote:Vol would never admit it, but he tired more easily the older he grew. More and more, he found himself needing to take a few moments to utilize the Force to refresh himself

but the most clear cut link between Aurra and Jacen is in their stats

Aurra's card from 2004

--
Jacen's card from 2006 (same year as tempest )

further proof of PT Aurra's vast superiority to Jacen and proof of her decline

RNG wrote:Wrong. She was among the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis. And she's regarded as one of the greatest and strongest Jedi in the order. She is NOT below Ryelli. She may be around his tier or greater.

Ryelli too was one of the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis 

Hammer wrote:Master Ryelli had lost those fingers in the Pentranaki arena on Geonosis three years ago

and of course one of the few survivors 

despite being an Archeologist 'fighting brilliantly' 

Attack of the Clones Novelization wrote:But even with that, even with all of the remaining Jedi fighting brilliantly in the arena, the droids continued to press in, herding them all together in a hopeless position.

so he is still putting up a comparably good fight to Aayla and the other Jedi there, despite fighting not being a focus of his 

none of the quotes you provided put Aayla above Ryelli, whom, being a master, is by default more powerful unless directly proven untrue 

DEBUNKING LEVIATHAN SCALING 

I. Jacen > Kyp?

RNG wrote:Jacen is above Kyp Durron. As evidenced by the above quote as well as Jacen's superior performance against Vong Slayers. Let's compare their respective fights:

both the above quotes are in universe opinions for one, the fight comparison you made is, well, circumstantial, since in Kyp's fight  

The Unifying Force wrote:Kyp whirled and brought the blade down like an ax. Evading the strike, the warrior rose to one knee and unfurled his amphistaff.

The serpentlike creature elongated and wrapped itself around the hilt of the lightsaber. But Kyp wasn't about to surrender his weapon.

he is caught off guard which results in the Vong being able to grab a hold of his weapon, where as Jacen is straight up stated to have an advantage and of course doesn't have anyone clinging and dragging on his weapon

The Unifying Force wrote:Jacen took advantage of the gravitic anomaly now, as one of the slayers lunged for him. He leapt high into the air, and the warrior flew under his feet, only to be pulled to the floor facefirst, so that by the time Jacen had twisted in the air and landed he was able to drive his blade into the small of the warrior's back, almost pinioning him to the floor.

these are hardly good comparisons when one has a gravitic anomaly too his advantage and another gets his saber caught right from the get go after an unexpected move catching him mid strike, and then also consider that the strength of individual Vong's can vary, these reasons make TUF Jacen > Kyp ambiguous at best 

II. Kyp > Kun?

RNG wrote:Kyp Durron, many years prior managed to kill a Leviathan whilst unarmed.

Yes, and not even using his own power, It is the power of the Black Rain Storms of Corbos that kills the Leviathan










he is using the ability 'Alter Environment' to do this


So its not even Kyp's power here, talk about Malleus using trickery to beat Ryelli but not this

not to mention the Leviathan Kyp killed with the storm was a small juvenile, the second one that was full sized required the whole team of Jedi to defeat


  


there's clearly varying strengths of Leviathans and we don't know the extent to which each Leviathan is imbued with power, the small Leviathan seems to be on the weaker range so quite frankly there is nothing even putting it above a Wyrm, especially the ultra hyped Wyrm hailed as a god that Kun fought.
not to mention the Wyrm is far larger than the small Leviathan 


  
So there is absolutely no link to be here between Kyp and Kun  

RNG wrote:Exar Kun struggles with a Sith Wyrm (which are inferior to Leviathans), he is only able to beat it with the power of a Sith amulet.

the entire point of the fight was a test for Kun to use the amulet and embrace the power of the dark side, not only was he also weakened having just awoken from a concussion but his powers are also stated to have abandoned him, add to that the fact that much like Kyp, Kun too was unarmed at first





besides the whole conflict was a ploy set up by Nadd, so again another sketchy comparison 

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:offered Kun to a creature they thought of as a god: a Sith wyrm. The monster was an absolutely enormous
reptile/insect hybrid Naga Sadow had created centuries earlier. The Sith Wyrm prepared to devour Exar Kun. Unknown to either the Massassi or Exar Kun, the spirit of Freedon Nadd was engineering this conflict to turn Exar Kun to the dark side

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Neither Exar Kun nor the Massassi realized that this was just another of Freedon Nadd's tests for Exar Kun, a means to force him to embrace the dark side. When Kun destroyed the creature with an ancient Sith amulet, he won the approval of Nadd, the full strength of the dark side

once he got the amulet and was able to channel his hatred he stomped the Wyrm, the power of the amulet is not separate to his own (unlike the Corbos Storm), it was his own hatred all channeled into one blast 

Gnost Durral: SWTOR Timeline wrote:he channeled his hatred and killed the Wyrm

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Freedon Nadd knew that Kun could only defeat the wyrm by taking up an ancient Sith amulet and focusing the energy of the dark side in concentrated blasts. The wyrm soon fell to Kun

To conclude. Nothing changes. The Jacen > Kyp is dubious at best and Kyp > Kun has no basis, your case has fallen to its knees, don't try to heal a fatal wound. you'll just die slower. concede.

Note: I went waaaaay over the character limit. My character count is 8714. Both my opponent and a judge has approved of me going over the limit. To make up for this, my opponent will be granted an additional 3.3k characters in his response if he needs them.

---

Vaelias wrote:The point here is that he was Youngling Level, and not chosen to be a Padawan, so yeh average or above average, but for a Youngling. furthermore Telloti is directly stated to have failed his Apprentice trial

You tried to make the implication that he was too weak to be a Jedi. I merely corrected you there. Also, his failure of the apprentice trial had nothing to do with power as the story told us. Overall though, yes. Telloti very much was unrealized potential, which was my point.

---

Vaelias wrote:Perhaps stomped was the wrong word, but Telloti was definitely in the dominant position the entire fight, first blocking Ryelli's blows easily and in an instant before he can even think about it, compared to Ryelli, he was so fast and so strong

--

Vaelias wrote:The fact that Ryelli is forcing Telloti's saber down implies this is purely a physical strength advantage

Absolutely not. Let me break down the fight:

1: Pre fight (blue): Telloti puts the armor on. Ryelli tries to talk him down. It's clear that he's scared at this point

-Hammer

2: Fight begins (red): Ryelli starts swinging. Telloti defends. Ryelli gets in a glancing blow. Then Telloti goes on the offense. Pushes Ryelli back. Telloti notes how Ryelli feels weak and how he feels stronger. Ryelli is still scared. That is no doubt fueling Telloti's assault.

-Hammer

3: Ryelli makes a comeback (green): Ryelli forces Telloti back. He is described as growing serene. Which means he's no longer scared. And is no longer fueling Telloti. Ryelli has taking the upper hand now that his mind is calm. He is stated to be stronger. It's clear that once he got past the fear, he's stronger. This NOT just physical strength. Once the master regains his composure, he's above Telloti.

-Hammer

4: Telloti uses the special nature of Null's lightsaber to win (yellow): Telloti is pushed back. Ryelli is basically in the position to kill him. Telloti activates the special feature on Null's lightsaber and sidesteps Ryelli's killing blow. While the master has over-extended himself, Telloti uses the secret blade to kill Ryelli. Were it not for this exploit, Telloti would be dead.

-Hammer

So no. Ryelli didn't gain the advantage because he was physically swole, he did so because truly, he is a superior to Telloti. Even with the armor. That's why it said he's stronger.

---

Vaelias wrote:The fact that Ryelli is forcing Telloti's saber down implies this is purely a physical strength advantage made further evident by the amount of times the armor is stressed to be super powerful, like nothing Telloti had ever felt which would include any Jedi Telloti had ever encountered anywhere, not just Ryelli

--

Vaelias wrote:Telloti spent some time with Master Piell

--

Vaelias wrote:A member of the Jedi high council, one of the greatest masters of the order

--

Vaelias wrote:for which Piell fought many battles

--

Vaelias wrote:despite this Telloti maintains that the miniscule amount of power remaining in Nulls armor is, in comparison, 'real power' and stronger than he has ever felt

so not only is the power greater than Master Ryelli, its more powerful than High Council Master Piell

This quote is clearly referring to Telloti's own power. The armor is making him more powerful than he ever was. It looks to me that you're actually buying into Telloti's delusions of grandeur. Don't tell me you're gonna start holding him>Dooku just because he thinks he can beat Dooku. This is a baffling leap in logic. Saying that he's high council tier. Especially when he can't beat a non council level master without using a cheap trick.

-Hammer

---

Vaelias wrote:but lets say it that it is indeed talking about power, then this duel would seem more evenly matched, the armor is still more powerful than Council Master Piell, so that would just boost Ryelli to council master level, strengthening the case that he is undoubtedly more powerful than Aayla

and we don't really need anything more than proximity for this scaling to work so either way this works in my favor

This would work if Telloti was above Piell but he wasn't. As I've covered, Telloti can potentially be on par with Ryelli but he's still below.

---

Vaelias wrote:all this means is that it will forever be imprinted with these traits, not that it will forever be as strong in the dark side, as I proved in my last post, Hettons collection in RoT is direct proof of this

Ultimately, the point is: Not all artifacts are the same. And not all decay. We have cases where we know there's no decay. Such as the Muur talisman.



-Dark Horse

Not all artifacts work the same way. You need more than just a quote from RoT to prove that Null's armor decayed. Nothing from Hammer implies that it decayed.

---

Vaelias wrote:Citation needed

I will relent on this point and say it's just a theory/potential possibility. But the original point stands. We have artifacts that haven't decayed. And we have many more with no implication of decay. It's not a hard and fast rule that every artifact decays. And even if Null's armor decayed, Null isn't some rando Sith. There's nothing to say his armor would decay at the same rate.

---

Vaelias wrote:Yes and he Opened himself fully to the force and was using the power of his anger, fear and hatred and all his concentration in doing so, add to that Jacen had the element of surprise

--

Vaelias wrote:Given that Jacen had the element of surprise on Sing here and once in control needed to go all out and maintain his full concentration on her heavily suggests he would not be able to do this had he not caught her off guard, I might be able to jump out on a professional fighter and pin him down and keep him there, but I'm not going to be able to tap him on the shoulder and then take him down and keep him down easily, he was still holding her, but a simple lapse of his tense concentration and she was able to break the connection, this just goes to show the proximity between the two, ultimately he failed to crush her force presence despite his best efforts. and proximity is all we need for the scaling to work.

This entire fight was very circumstantial. He was trying to stop her through mental domination. He had to be careful in how he stopped her because of the thermal det she had. And your irl example doesn't really apply here at all. I'm sure you're aware that mental domination and influence can be resisted by certain species or by strong minds. I've shown this in my Cad Bane example already. But here's more, even non Jedi can be trained to resist mental influence:

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Vaelias wrote:Right so lets take a look at the evidence in more detail and dispel the silly notion that Aurra did not decline

--

Vaelias wrote: Aurra she will have been largely inactive in recent times and is hardly known anymore per Leia, even as early as 18BBY over 58 years prior to Tempest Aurra is stated to be declining due to this

The Coruscant Nights passage you posted doesn't imply she's atrophied. Merely that the force failed to warn her one time. It's meant to portray her implant's effectiveness and her reflexes. There isn't any evidence that she's atrophied or weakened that much in the force.

---

Vaelias wrote:Not only this but Leia refers to her as an 80 year old woman, an implication that she is now aging and within the context implies that its surprising she is still down for the job despite being an 80 year old woman, and indeed may be a reason for her inactivity, in fact, Aurra is directly stated to be aging

Regarding Leia's comments, my point stands. In fact, Leia comments on Aurra's youthful appearance in the same book:

"Do you have nerf steaks?" Nashtah interrupted.
"Sure," Leia said. Nerf steaks were more dinner than lunch, but who knew what timetable Nashtah was on? "How would you like it?"
"Them," Nashtah corrected. "I need three. Just defrosted will be fine."
"Three?" Leia gasped. She did not mean to be rude, but even Saba would have trouble eating that much meat- and Saba was a Barabel. "Perhaps you're accustomed to smaller steaks than we stock. These are half a kilo apiece."
Nashtah's eyes flashed as though insulted. "Make it four," she ordered. "My species has an ... unusual metabolism."
"I think the word you're looking for is ferocious,'' Leia said. "Defrosted it is."
She punched an order into the galley's multiprocessor, requesting two gorba melts for her and Han, and the four steaks for Nashtah. Then she returned to the table and sat across from the assassin.
"What is your species?" Leia asked, trying to sound casual and polite. "You have a youthful appearance, but I sense that you've lived a long and interesting life already."

-Tempest

---

There's more to suggest that Aurra wasn't post physical prime at all. It's clear that she doesn't age as humans do. She took a lot after her father. Including his aging. Seeing as both these sources came after the NEG to Characters, the NEG saying she was aging should be disregarded.

"My mother was human. My father was a ghost in the night, and I doubt even my mother knew his species-but it was obviously a long-lived one." Nashtah drew her lips back in an indifferent smile. "If I ever find out who he was, perhaps I'll be able to hunt him down and kill him." Her hand drifted toward the swinging holster she wore on her hip. "So how come you and Captain Solo don't know who our employer is?"

-Tempest

She tried to remember how the galaxy's Outer Rim had looked from the observation deck of the pirate ship, so long ago. It had been many years. How many, Sing herself wasn't sure. She wasn't sure of a great many things about herself, including her age and her species. She knew her mother had been human, but her father's ancestry was a mystery. Those she had worked for, including Wallanooga the Hutt, had speculated that he had been Qiraash, Rattataki, Umbaran, perhaps even Anzati. Never mind that none of these could interbreed with humans without a certain amount of genetic tinkering, and that none of those genomes could account for her longevity. So her origins remained a mystery, even to herself.

The past held no interest for Aurra Sing. All that mattered was the now.

-Coruscant Nights: Street of Shadows

Sure, she may have aged, but it's nowhere near the crazy amount you seem to think.

---

Vaelias wrote:but the most clear cut link between Aurra and Jacen is in their stats

Vaelias wrote:Aurra's card from 2004

--

Vaelias wrote:Jacen's card from 2006 (same year as tempest)

--

Vaelias wrote:further proof of PT Aurra's vast superiority to Jacen and proof of her decline

You do know that the Jacen that that card portrays is Jacen as of Balance Point, right?

-Champions of the Force Preview 7

The Solo Kids experience some huge growth in Star By Star. Balance Point Jacen is below SBS Jacen. And SBS Jacen is below Traitor Jacen. And Traitor Jacen is below TUF Jacen.

-Talkin with JD

You're attempting to use the stats of a character who's massively pre NJO prime. This does not at all help your already wonky case.

---

Vaelias wrote:Ryelli too was one of the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis

--

Vaelias wrote:and of course one of the few survivors

despite being an Archeologist 'fighting brilliantly'

--

Vaelias wrote:so he is still putting up a comparably good fight to Aayla and the other Jedi there, despite fighting not being a focus of his

Vaelias wrote:none of the quotes you provided put Aayla above Ryelli, whom, being a master, is by default more powerful unless directly proven untrue

If that's not enough, she also fought as a Jedi general in the war.

-Complete Visual Guide

-Jedi Heroes

Compare that to Ryelli, who just becomes an archaeologist. He's not facing trials or fighting. And he's dispensable enough to send on exploration missions. At a time where the Jedi are spread super thin.

-Hammer

All those quotes I posted prove my point that just because he's a master, doesn't mean he's superior. But I got a much simpler way to prove that Ryelli isn't above Aayla:

He lost 3 fingers at Geonosis. Aayla lost none. She came out of that battle in a way better condition than he did. AND she has better hype. So no. Aayla is not sub Ryelli. In fact, there's a case to be made that she's above him.

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Vaelias wrote:both the above quotes are in universe opinions for one, the fight comparison you made is, well, circumstantial, since in Kyp's fight

Are they opinions? Both Leia and Ganner spend a lot of time around Jedi. They can feel the force in others. They would know how powerful someone is. And in Ganner's case, he was on the receiving end of Jacen's raw power. Both of em have spent a lot of time around Kyp too. So there's no reason the quotes don't bind NJO Kyp.

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Vaelias wrote:he is caught off guard which results in the Vong being able to grab a hold of his weapon, where as Jacen is straight up stated to have an advantage and of course doesn't have anyone clinging and dragging on his weapon

What you basically just said was "he lost because he lost. If he didn't lose, then he would not have lost"
At that point in time, it is no secret that amphistaffs are lightsaber resistant. Kyp is "caught of guard" by his opponent's superior maneuvering and strength.

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Vaelias wrote:where as Jacen is straight up stated to have an advantage and of course doesn't have anyone clinging and dragging on his weapon

--

Vaelias wrote:these are hardly good comparisons when one has a gravitic anomaly too his advantage

Way to ignore the rest of the fight. That's one kill out of the rest. Jacen killed 5 slayers in total. He was only able to use that "advantage" for that kill. He's stated to have killed 3 slayers. And it was without any unfair advantages.

Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim's forehead.

-TUF

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Vaelias wrote:and another gets his saber caught right from the get go after an unexpected move catching him mid strike

Wrong. Kyp was at no disadvantage at the beginning of that fight. It started off on neutral ground and ended on neutral ground.

Kyp raced for the nearest one, catching the warrior across the chest with a powerful upswing of his blade. The Yuuzhan Vong growled and rolled, but his dark, unarmored flesh showed only a shallow bloodless furrow. Kyp whirled and brought the blade down like an ax. Evading the strike, the warrior rose to one knee and unfurled his amphistaff.

-TUF

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Vaelias wrote:and then also consider that the strength of individual Vong's can vary, these reasons make TUF Jacen > Kyp ambiguous at best

This is a more than fair comparison. Kyp gets defeated by a weakened slayer. Jacen fights on much more even footing against multiple full power slayers. It's rather simple. And furthermore: There is no reason Jacen shouldn't be > Kyp. He's a Skywalker with a potent connection to the force and he played arguably the biggest role in ending the Vong War. Kyp is potent, but essentially... why wouldn't the hero of the story be more powerful than a side character? And that is supported by their power and feats.

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Vaelias wrote:Yes, and not even using his own power, It is the power of the Black Rain Storms of Corbos that kills the Leviathan

--

Vaelias wrote:he is using the ability 'Alter Environment' to do this

--

Vaelias wrote:So its not even Kyp's power here, talk about Malleus using trickery to beat Ryelli but not this

He's using his power to call down the lightning. He's able to direct the lightning rather precisely. I don't see how it's any less impressive.

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Vaelias wrote:not to mention the Leviathan Kyp killed with the storm was a small juvenile, the second one that was full sized required the whole team of Jedi to defeat

The fact that the other one was more powerful doesn't make the one Kyp contended with weak by any means.

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Vaelias wrote:there's clearly varying strengths of Leviathans and we don't know the extent to which each Leviathan is imbued with power, the small Leviathan seems to be on the weaker range so quite frankly there is nothing even putting it above a Wyrm, especially the ultra hyped Wyrm hailed as a god that Kun fought.

Yeah, Leviathans do vary. The small Leviathan being weaker than the large Leviathan by no means puts it below Wyrms. The Book of Sith quotes I posted favor Leviathans in general. It doesn't mention anything about size.

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Vaelias wrote:not to mention the Wyrm is far larger than the small Leviathan

Arguable:

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith

-Jedi Academy: Leviathan

Even if the Wyrm is that much bigger

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Vaelias wrote:So there is absolutely no link to be here between Kyp and Kun

Kyp fought on par with a creature that was a superior to the one that Kun fought. Even if it was small, as The Book of Sith quotes showed, these things are army level. They splintered Jedi barricades during the time of the Exiles. They were described as nature advanced to perfection. Everything favors Leviathans over wyrms.

Kyp gets hit and continues fighting like a champ

-Jedi Academy: Leviathan

Kun basically gets manhandled instantly.

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith

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Vaelias wrote:the entire point of the fight was a test for Kun to use the amulet and embrace the power of the dark side, not only was he also weakened having just awoken from a concussion but his powers are also stated to have abandoned him, add to that the fact that much like Kyp, Kun too was unarmed at first

--

Vaelias wrote:besides the whole conflict was a ploy set up by Nadd, so again another sketchy comparison

--

Vaelias wrote:once he got the amulet and was able to channel his hatred he stomped the Wyrm, the power of the amulet is not separate to his own (unlike the Corbos Storm), it was his own hatred all channeled into one blast

This proves my point. Look at the fights. Kyp fought on par with an army level creature (small as it may be, it's still superior.) Kun may not have been meant to kill the Wyrm on his own but his performing worse against an inferior creature does put Kyp above Kun at that point. Mind you, Kyp wasn't exactly running at 100% efficiency. He was offput by the despair of the Leviathan's victims and he still performed as well as he did.

Hell... He was still offput until the end of the fight with the second one. Even with all that distraction, Kyp managed to perform amazingly.

-Jedi Academy: Leviathan

As can be seen with Kun and Kyp's performance in their respective fights, they both were somewhat hindered. Yet Kyp performed far better than Kun did. And against a foe that is superior to the one Kun fought.

There isn't anything that puts Sadow's Wyrm above the Leviathan Kyp faced and there's a lot more hype for Leviathans in general.

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Vaelias wrote: To conclude. Nothing changes. The Jacen > Kyp is dubious at best and Kyp > Kun has no basis, your case has fallen to its knees, don't try to heal a fatal wound. you'll just die slower. concede.

You're correct. Nothing changes. The Hero of the New Jedi Order still decimates the soon-to-be Fallen Knight. Why would I need to concede? My case has stood firm and true.

---

Bow before the might of the Leviathans and the Hero of the New Jedi Order!

---

RNG wrote:You tried to make the implication that he was too weak to be a Jedi. I merely corrected you there. Also, his failure of the apprentice trial had nothing to do with power as the story told us. Overall though, yes. Telloti very much was unrealized potential, which was my point.

Ok, but what does that change? where has that gotten you? doesn't exactly help you, his power is still a non-factor in the situation, he is still at best slightly above average for a Youngling, which is... well, nothing really, but even still I doubt Telloti would have been thrown aside if he was some sort of prodigy

RNG wrote:Absolutely not. Let me break down the fight:

1: Pre fight (blue): Telloti puts the armor on. Ryelli tries to talk him down. It's clear that he's scared at this point

Ok before we continue there, why would Ryelli be scared if he knows he is more powerful? and then why would Telloti feel power like he has never felt before from Null's armor? if his own Master, Ryelli is stronger let alone all the other Jedi he has encountered? that doesn't seem to add up

RNG wrote:2: Fight begins (red): Ryelli starts swinging. Telloti defends. Ryelli gets in a glancing blow. Then Telloti goes on the offense. Pushes Ryelli back. Telloti notes how Ryelli feels weak and how he feels stronger. Ryelli is still scared. That is no doubt fueling Telloti's assault.

Right of the bat Ryelli charges and is on the offensive and Telloti is met with Ryelli's full frontal assault and is blocking his blows perfectly and effortlessly

and then proceeded to drive him back and push the offensive on to him, if this isn't dominating the fight Idk what is

Telloti pushes the assault onto Ryelli before Ryelli lands the blow on his shoulder, and you will have to refresh my memory here, where does it say Ryelli feels weak? all that is said is Telloti feels so big in comparison which seems like only another implication of his superiority

RNG wrote:Ryelli makes a comeback (green): Ryelli forces Telloti back. He is described as growing serene. Which means he's no longer scared. And is no longer fueling Telloti. Ryelli has taking the upper hand now that his mind is calm. He is stated to be stronger. It's clear that once he got past the fear, he's stronger. This NOT just physical strength. Once the master regains his composure, he's above Telloti.

Im still not 100% sure where you are getting this idea that he is fueling Telloti from?

and ok lets just look at that passage again here

Hammer wrote:The blades squealed and sizzled. Something strange happened. Ryelli forced him back. The Jedi Master with the mangled hand was winning. His expression grew serene. Why was he so calm? It was infuriating, like the face of that girl Enan during the Trials all those years ago, when she’d made a fool of him. Ryelli’s blade angled ever closer, forcing the great two-handed lightsaber of Warb Null down. Telloti’s left knee buckled and clanged against the stone floor. The archaeologist was stronger. How could that be?

Stronger... perhaps, but not smarter.
Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.

aside from what I consider to be an obvious show of physical strength, forcing the blade down, it is possible that this is just stating that Ryelli is stronger than he was before he gained his composure, and not stronger than Telloti

A) 'Stronger' is referencing physical strength

B) 'Stronger' is a comparison between Ryelli before his composure and after it

now given the many implications of the power of armor being mega powerful here these honestly seem like the only 2 realistic options, let me refresh your memory

Hammer wrote:Master Ryelli stood in the door in his brown robes. His lightsaber hummed in his malformed hand. “Take that off, Telloti,” Ryelli urged, a tremor of something in his voice. Fear? It excited him to think a Jedi Master was afraid of him.
“It’s of the Sith. This place… it’s a tomb of some kind. That armor.. it’s infected with the dark side of the Force.”
The dark side? With this kind of power, he could be a hammer to crush the dark side. What did Ryelli know? He had no insight at all. Why shouldn’t he take this armor for himself? It had power in it. Real power. He could feel the Force like never before.

Hammer wrote:“Why shouldn't he take the armor? It had power. Real power. He could feel the Force like never before.

but going back to either one of those options, or even your proposed option that Ryelli's composure makes him outright more powerful than ever, begs the question, why does it matter? does any of this even matter, all I need for my scaling to work is proximity, and Im sure you're not suggesting Ryelli is now suddenly stomp gaps above Telloti, which would be needed to break the scaling.

RNG wrote:4: Telloti uses the special nature of Null's lightsaber to win (yellow): Telloti is pushed back. Ryelli is basically in the position to kill him. Telloti activates the special feature on Null's lightsaber and sidesteps Ryelli's killing blow. While the master has over-extended himself, Telloti uses the secret blade to kill Ryelli. Were it not for this exploit, Telloti would be dead.

Hmm you seem to be missing an integral part of the passage here

Hammer wrote:His bare thumb felt along the length of the two-handed hilt to a small toggle, and as Ryelli forced his superior position, bearing down with all his strength,

Telloti triggered it and sidestepped.

Ryelli was not overextending, but simply baring down with all his strength from a superior position, and Telloti was fast enough to swiftly evade despite Ryelli's advantage

If it weren't for the 'exploit' of the Lightsabers second blade, Telloti would have still evaded Ryelli's all out attack

RNG wrote:This quote is clearly referring to Telloti's own power. The armor is making him more powerful than he ever was. It looks to me that you're actually buying into Telloti's delusions of grandeur. Don't tell me you're gonna start holding him>Dooku just because he thinks he can beat Dooku. This is a baffling leap in logic. Saying that he's high council tier. Especially when he can't beat a non council level master without using a cheap trick.

huh? he hasn't even put it on at this point he can just feel power

Hammer wrote:Why shouldn't he take the armor? It had power. Real power. He could feel the Force like never before.

Its not doing anything for him yet, he can just feel the force stronger than he has ever felt it before which includes the Force Auras / Signatures of their masters, some can even sense this from lightyears away



stronger than anything Telloti had ever felt means what it means, this presence was stronger than Ryelli and it was stronger than Piell

and no him feeling as though he can take on Dooku is obviously him just feeling mega powerful and boasting, its not the same as him directly comparing the power he is feeling to being beyond anything he has ever felt

RNG wrote:This would work if Telloti was above Piell but he wasn't. As I've covered, Telloti can potentially be on par with Ryelli but he's still below.

concession accepted   

RNG wrote:Ultimately, the point is: Not all artifacts are the same. And not all decay. We have cases where we know there's no decay. Such as the Muur talisman.

well the range of items in Hetton's collection is vast, consisting of all different types of artifacts and they are all decaying, dark side imbued items, and dark side energies decay over time by default, another example would be Korriban losing potency

RoT wrote:The room was part library, part museum. Shelves of ancient manuscripts and scrolls, and endless lines of old datatapes lined the walls, and there was a data terminal and large viewscreen in one corner. Several long glass display cases ran lengthwise down the center of the room, displaying the collection of Sith treasures Hetton had spent the past three decades acquiring: strange glowing amulets, small jewel-encrusted daggers, a variety of unusual stones and crystals, and the handles of at least a dozen different lightsabers.

And the example of the Muur Talisman doesn't really work, its an item containing a spirit, which is entirely different from a dark side imbued item, not to mention Muur is not even growing, so the deadlier quote is referring to Muur growing more deadly in a threat sense, so the longer he is cooped up in the Talisman the more his desire to seek revenge grows making him more deadly.

RNG wrote:Not all artifacts work the same way. You need more than just a quote from RoT to prove that Null's armor decayed. Nothing from Hammer implies that it decayed.

Yes, all regular dark side imbued items do work the same, and by default when they are not surrounded by other potent energies, they decline as shown, dark side potency in general declines, as seen with Korriban. so by default I am still correct, considering this I'm not convinced anything from Hammer actually needs to imply decay

RNG wrote:And we have many more with no implication of decay. It's not a hard and fast rule that every artifact decays. And even if Null's armor decayed, Null isn't some rando Sith. There's nothing to say his armor would decay at the same rate.

Per multiple sources, namely RoT and Book of Sith, yes that is a hard and fast rule actually. and well the fact it is desolate on barren planet lightyears from any sort of activity implies it does if I'm honest

RNG wrote:This entire fight was very circumstantial. He was trying to stop her through mental domination. He had to be careful in how he stopped her because of the thermal det she had. And your irl example doesn't really apply here at all. I'm sure you're aware that mental domination and influence can be resisted by certain species or by strong minds. I've shown this in my Cad Bane example already. But here's more, even non Jedi can be trained to resist mental influence:

Yes it was, and all the circumstances were stacked up in Jacens favor, and well he opted to stop her in this way because he wanted to keep things clean in front of Allana, but resisting TP is more of a will power feat and not so much force power, but it brings up the issue of Jacen going all out here and holding Aurra in place but is unable to do anything of effectiveness when it comes to an actual purely force based combative confrontation

we know Jacen here is amped by his emotions already, drawing fully on the force with all his emotions and is then further amped by the pain Aurra is inflicting on him

Tempest wrote:But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

which by the way is a lot, Aurra is quite literally beating the shit out of him. 

Tempest wrote:Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down. Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye. The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip. Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body. "Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..." She kicked again. "... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!" Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealinig his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

and he is still getting overpowered in a saber lock and getting beaten up even more, the word 'suddenly' here is telling of Aurra being too fast for Jacen to even react, especially when she is 'over him'

Jacen is only doing semi-decent against Aurra from a distance after catching her by surprise and in an engagement that is not purely force based, and again im not arguing for utter superiority on Aurra's part, but they are clearly close to each other, and again that's all that is needed for the scaling to work, for this to work in your favor you would have to argue that Jacen is just so far beyond Aurra, which is simply demonstrably untrue and honestly just bad-faith, if Aurra can do this to a much more powerful Jacen experiencing multiple Temporary Amps, then imagine a confrontation between TUF Jacen and Aurra, TUF Jacen of course being far weaker than Tempest Jacen

RNG wrote:The Coruscant Nights passage you posted doesn't imply she's atrophied. Merely that the force failed to warn her one time. It's meant to portray her implant's effectiveness and her reflexes. There isn't any evidence that she's atrophied or weakened that much in the force.

hmmm, lets take another look at this

Coruscant Nights wrote:After all, one did not secure the release from prison of one of the galaxy’s most feared and formidable bounty hunters in order to have floral arrangements designed. For almost as long as Aurra Sing could remember it had been the thrill of the hunt that had kept her alive, that had given her a reason to progress from one day to the next. It was only when she relied solely on her own skills, her superb reflexes and unique training, that she felt anything even approaching a level of personal comfort. She had relied on nothing else for so long …

here we see that it is Sing's drive and progression comes directly from her job and her being active, obviously post Empire there will be less activity and therefore less drive for progression 

Coruscant Nights wrote:As Sing dumped her own load of plates into another tube, she kept her senses on full alert. Her connection to the Force would warn her of any imminent assault, sometimes even before it was initiated. That, and her deadly reputation, had kept her alive all these months in this rancor pit. Both would continue to do so. Or so she thought … The attack, when it came, was thus doubly surprising—first that anyone would dare attack her at all, and second because the Force had not warned her of it. Fortunately, that enigmatic energy was not her only ally. Even though the misbegotten Jedi flooz Aayla Secura had cut the antenna of her biocomputer implant, it still was capable of sensing danger at close range. That was what warned her now, barely in time, of the Trandoshan with the shiv who was lunging at her from behind.

but now the force is not warning her and it was only the antenna that just about warned her in time, the force is no longer continuing to warn her

RNG wrote:Regarding Leia's comments, my point stands. In fact, Leia comments on Aurra's youthful appearance in the same book:

ok this doesnt mean much, Aurra is around 90 years old, based on her species she could look 70 and still appear youthful for her age

RNG wrote:There's more to suggest that Aurra wasn't post physical prime at all. It's clear that she doesn't age as humans do. She took a lot after her father. Including his aging. Seeing as both these sources came after the NEG to Characters, the NEG saying she was aging should be disregarded.

Why would be disregard the NEG quote, nothing precludes it, if an IU opinion on ones seemingly youthful appearance is your only basis for disregarding the quote then that's not sufficient evidence at all and your case falls flat once again 



I wouldn't say that is entirely true at all if Im honest, lets look at the evidence



--


AURRA SING DECLINE EVIDENCE
>Visible human-like aging from 51BBY - 31BBY and then more so up until 21BBY
>Is stated to be aging even by the OT
>demonstrated decline 
>relies on her job to keep her going
>is inactive and is hardly known anymore
>Leia's comments implying she is no longer active because she is an old woman 


AURRA SING NO DECLINE EVIDENCE
>Leia saying she looks younger than her actual age 

--

So no there is definitely not more to suggest she was not post prime in the slightest, and 0 evidence for growth

RNG wrote:Sure, she may have aged, but it's nowhere near the crazy amount you seem to think.

ahh but you concede anyways, cool

RNG wrote:You do know that the Jacen that that card portrays is Jacen as of Balance Point, right?

yeh sure, but the point still stands, Aurra is put above Jacen is the take away here, and quite substantially too, also you would have to prove the extent of that growth in the 4 years between BP and TUF, either way Its not going to be nearly as substantial as the gap between TUF Jacen and the one that is getting battered by Aurra 

RNG wrote:You're attempting to use the stats of a character who's massively pre NJO prime. This does not at all help your already wonky case.

Well its more the point Aurra is put > Jacen, even in stats, evidence which directly supports a very solid case actually, and you have yet to prove he is massively sub TUF Jacen 

RNG wrote:If that's not enough, she also fought as a Jedi general in the war.

Ok? doesn't change much

RNG wrote:Compare that to Ryelli, who just becomes an archaeologist. He's not facing trials or fighting. And he's dispensable enough to send on exploration missions. At a time where the Jedi are spread super thin.

yeh fighting is not his area of expertise and he still has a very similar feat to Aayla in surviving the Geonosian Arena, and in the scan you provided it states clearly Ryelli chose to go on that mission, because he doesn't like battles, not that he a battle hardened arena veteran was not worthy of anything else, he chose it himself

RNG wrote:All those quotes I posted prove my point that just because he's a master, doesn't mean he's superior. But I got a much simpler way to prove that Ryelli isn't above Aayla:

He lost 3 fingers at Geonosis. Aayla lost none. She came out of that battle in a way better condition than he did. AND she has better hype. So no. Aayla is not sub Ryelli. In fact, there's a case to be made that she's above him.

Well why was he a master and she was not ? Aayla was one of the youngest people ever to be made a master so she obviously got it as soon as it was due, and it was not yet due at this time, but, again I don't even need him to be more powerful for the scaling to work, only around the same level, which they evidently are given their similar feat, or are you suggesting Jedi Knight Aayla would one shot Master Ryelli? seems unlikely

RNG wrote:Are they opinions? Both Leia and Ganner spend a lot of time around Jedi. They can feel the force in others. They would know how powerful someone is. And in Ganner's case, he was on the receiving end of Jacen's raw power. Both of em have spent a lot of time around Kyp too. So there's no reason the quotes don't bind NJO Kyp.

Well ultimately yes they are still opinions, these quotes would put Jacen above Luke if taken literally, they are obviously just speaking to his power or potential, or perhaps most powerful 'Jedi' just refers to the Jedi Knights, thusly would not include Kyp

RNG wrote:What you basically just said was "he lost because he lost. If he didn't lose, then he would not have lost"
At that point in time, it is no secret that amphistaffs are lightsaber resistant. Kyp is "caught of guard" by his opponent's superior maneuvering and strength.

not really, right off the bat he has his weapon clutched, the very same thing could happen to Jacen in that situation, there are circumstances at play in all situations like this, which is why I don't like it as a definitive claim to ones superiority, not to mention the gravity advantage Jacen has

RNG wrote:Way to ignore the rest of the fight. That's one kill out of the rest. Jacen killed 5 slayers in total. He was only able to use that "advantage" for that kill. He's stated to have killed 3 slayers. And it was without any unfair advantages.

Why would he not still have the advantage for the rest of the kills? also consider the unknown varying strength of each Vong, like a gorilla could take on 10 femboys and then the other gorilla could take on 10 bodybuilders and strongmen its hardly a fair comparison to say the first gorilla is superior because he stomped the femboys instantly and the other nearly died to the 10 bodybuilders and strongmen, they are all still humans, Vongs could vary the same, we simply do not know the ins and outs which is why again, I don't like these types of comparisons

RNG wrote:Wrong. Kyp was at no disadvantage at the beginning of that fight. It started off on neutral ground and ended on neutral ground.

would you not call someone having a hold of your weapon a disadvantage ? the fight would have played out a lot differently if he had not been caught out by a cheap move such as that

RNG wrote:This is a more than fair comparison. Kyp gets defeated by a weakened slayer. Jacen fights on much more even footing against multiple full power slayers. It's rather simple. And furthermore: There is no reason Jacen shouldn't be > Kyp. He's a Skywalker with a potent connection to the force and he played arguably the biggest role in ending the Vong War. Kyp is potent, but essentially... why wouldn't the hero of the story be more powerful than a side character? And that is supported by their power and feats.

I mean Kyp isnt any random side character, he is consistently hyped up as top tier NJO Jedi even very early on in his career, and Jacen here is not exactly in the prime of his powers, but to be honest even if Jacen is > Kyp, it doesn't really help your case because there is still absolutely no link here

RNG wrote:He's using his power to call down the lightning. He's able to direct the lightning rather precisely. I don't see how it's any less impressive

you don't see how that is any less impressive ?? its not his power that is killing the Leviathan, its the storms power, its like driving a car to the top of the hill and letting it roll down, killing dozens of people, you directed the car, that doesnt mean you can kill dozens of people with such ease with your bare hands, this my friend is where your scaling completely falls apart, Kyp merely directs some lighting to kill the Leviathan

RNG wrote:The fact that the other one was more powerful doesn't make the one Kyp contended with weak by any means.

Well the implication is that its just a low tier leviathan, and Kyp still needed to call lighting down from the planets potent energies to be able to overcome it, there is absolutely no connection here at all

RNG wrote:Arguable:

Not really, the only shot where the small Leviathan appears so large is in an opening establishing shot, which are known in comic mediums to big up what its establishing, if you notice any other shot in the comic the Leviathan appears one consistent size, you are comparing an establishing shot where the Leviathan appears the size of the horizon to a normal mid fight shot


a good comparison would be both of the shots of beasts having been slain, in where yes the Wyrm utterly dwarfs the Leviathan

RNG wrote:Kyp fought on par with a creature that was a superior to the one that Kun fought. Even if it was small, as The Book of Sith quotes showed, these things are army level. They splintered Jedi barricades during the time of the Exiles. They were described as nature advanced to perfection. Everything favors Leviathans over wyrms.

Kyp gets hit and continues fighting like a champ

yeh some high level Leviathans may be above most Wyrm's by default, but in this case we have an ultra super hyped Wyrm worshiped as a god vs a Juvenile low tier Leviathan, holistically I really do not see any author agreeing this Leviathan would be above Naga Sadows God-Like Wyrm hyped as the test for the heir to the Dark Lord Mantle from the Sith's Golden Age, not that it matters anyway seeing as it was the power of the Corbos Storm that killed it not Kyp  

RNG wrote:Kun basically gets manhandled instantly.

Yes and I have already outlined the severity of Kun's handicaps in this scene

RNG wrote:This proves my point. Look at the fights. Kyp fought on par with an army level creature (small as it may be, it's still superior.) Kun may not have been meant to kill the Wyrm on his own but his performing worse against an inferior creature does put Kyp above Kun at that point. Mind you, Kyp wasn't exactly running at 100% efficiency. He was offput by the despair of the Leviathan's victims and he still performed as well as he did.

Hell... He was still offput until the end of the fight with the second one. Even with all that distraction, Kyp managed to perform amazingly.

Ahhh yes because being offput by the victims is much more of a hinderance than having just been concussed and stripped of your powers with terrible mental confliction, poor Kyp 

Kyp didn't fight on par with it, he danced around it for a bit before resorting to having to use the planetary nexus' power to kill it, saying he fought on par with it is implying Kyp could have defeated it without the use of the storm, which is simply untrue, Kyp (the side character) is simply not as powerful as Kun anyway, a fraction of Kuns power caused Kyp to decay and age shortly after where Kun never displayed any decay at all, meaning yes, Kun has far more potential than Kyp, actualized in a time where the Jedi are in a near prime state of power, as oppose to the New Jedi Order, which are 'half trained' compared to the TPM council, which I have proven Ulic scales to via Malleus Scaling  

Vergere wrote:"What became of it, then?" Vergere paced back and forth before Jacen, the patchy feathers on her frame fluffing and then smoothing again. "Perhaps you can tell me what has happened to the Republic in my absence. Tell me why the thousands of Jedi Knights I expected to contact on my return no longer exist, why there are only a few score half-trained young Jedi in their place, and what all of this has to do with this Sith Lord you mentioned on Coruscant, this Vader, your grandfather, whom I remember as that turbulent little Padawan, Anakin Skywalker."

So Kyp has far less potential and is 19 years old, Kun's age is not confirmed but is likely 22 as most main characters seem to be throughout star wars, but judging by his appearance id wager Kun is definitely older than 19, so we have Kun being older with more potential and better training add to that his mega hype as one of the most powerful Jedi ever even at this point, accolades Kyp does not possess 

RNG wrote:As can be seen with Kun and Kyp's performance in their respective fights, they both were somewhat hindered. Yet Kyp performed far better than Kun did. And against a foe that is superior to the one Kun fought.

There isn't anything that puts Sadow's Wyrm above the Leviathan Kyp faced and there's a lot more hype for Leviathans in general.

I think a more correct summary is...
Kun actually has legit hinderances in his fight with the mega hyped god-like Wyrm created by Naga Sadow himself and kills it with his own power channeled through the amulet, were as Kyp has no serious hinderance in his fight with the Juvenile basic low tier Leviathan with 0 hype created by an unknown exile in where he kills by directing the energies of a much greater external power source.

Vaelias wrote:Ok before we continue there, why would Ryelli be scared if he knows he is more powerful? and then why would Telloti feel power like he has never felt before from Null's armor? if his own Master, Ryelli is stronger let alone all the other Jedi he has encountered? that doesn't seem to add up

Ryelli being more powerful doesn't mean he can't be scared. There are instances of characters feeling fear/self doubt/etc against characters they're more powerful than. Just look at Luke in DN.

---

Vaelias wrote:Right of the bat Ryelli charges and is on the offensive and Telloti is met with Ryelli's full frontal assault and is blocking his blows perfectly and effortlessly
and then proceeded to drive him back and push the offensive on to him, if this isn't dominating the fight Idk what is

Driving someone back does not = dominating them.

---

Vaelias wrote:Im still not 100% sure where you are getting this idea that he is fueling Telloti from?

Do you need me to tell you that dark siders naturally thrive off of fear?

---

Vaelias wrote:but going back to either one of those options, or even your proposed option that Ryelli's composure makes him outright more powerful than ever, begs the question, why does it matter? does any of this even matter, all I need for my scaling to work is proximity, and Im sure you're not suggesting Ryelli is now suddenly stomp gaps above Telloti, which would be needed to break the scaling.

Don't mind me. I'm just dismantling your shaky argument. Don't you worry. This is just one of your many chain links I've broken. And as I've proven Ryelli is above Telloti.

---

Vaelias wrote:If it weren't for the 'exploit' of the Lightsabers second blade, Telloti would have still evaded Ryelli's all out attack

He could have possibly dodged. But as the Hammer portrays, it's the surprise factor that gave Telloti the edge. That cheap trick gave him a perfect opening to kill Ryelli. That's certainly what the story implies. Otherwise, why would it emphasize the exploit as much as it did?

---

Vaelias wrote:huh? he hasn't even put it on at this point he can just feel power

He had the armor on as he was thinking this lol. This was like right before the fight.

-Hammer

---

Vaelias wrote:Its not doing anything for him yet, he can just feel the force stronger than he has ever felt it before which includes the Force Auras / Signatures of their masters, some can even sense this from lightyears away

Again, he's clearly referring to his own power. Saying "I'm feeling happy like never before" means I'm happier than ever. Not that I'm happier than happy people I've met.

---

Vaelias wrote:well the range of items in Hetton's collection is vast, consisting of all different types of artifacts and they are all decaying, dark side imbued items, and dark side energies decay over time by default, another example would be Korriban losing potency

Hetton having a big collection is by no means proof that every single artifact decays. Plus, most of his stuff is unremarkable. Rando artifacts by no means sets a hard and fast rule. Also fashion/various artifacts =/= planet/location/nexus.

---

Vaelias wrote:Yes, all regular dark side imbued items do work the same, and by default when they are not surrounded by other potent energies, they decline as shown, dark side potency in general declines, as seen with Korriban. so by default I am still correct, considering this I'm not convinced anything from Hammer actually needs to imply decay

You operate on wonky assumptions.

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Vaelias wrote:Yes it was, and all the circumstances were stacked up in Jacens favor, and well he opted to stop her in this way because he wanted to keep things clean in front of Allana, but resisting TP is more of a will power feat and not so much force power, but it brings up the issue of Jacen going all out here and holding Aurra in place but is unable to do anything of effectiveness when it comes to an actual purely force based combative confrontation

The TP thing actually works in my favor. Jacen completely TP dominated her. To the point where she could only twitch a finger. It was because of the det that this was even a fight at all. She needed that much prep.

Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.

Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."

Her thumb twitched.

The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind, watching in horror as she pitched the detonator toward the refresher where Allana was hid-ing.

-Tempest

---

Vaelias wrote:we know Jacen here is amped by his emotions already, drawing fully on the force with all his emotions and is then further amped by the pain Aurra is inflicting on him

He wasn't being amped by the pain. The passage is just explaining how he's immune to pain.

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

-Tempest

But that's besides the point. Allow me to summarize what actually happened. (important parts in scan are bolded):

To make things clean as possible, Jacen decides to TP dominate Aurra. He does so and is only thrown off by the activation of a thermal det by the slightest finger twitch from her. Aurra throws the det, Jacen TK catches it and disarms it. Aurra gets the drop on him and gets him on the ground. She then uses the surprise + a foot blade to hit him multiple times. He force pushes her but loses his saber in the process. Once she got up, they were practically on neutral ground. He had her dead to rights, he could have easily killed her with lightning. But decided not to for Allana's sake. (red)

Aurra Fight:

So it's clear he trumped her in power. Only through cheap tricks and specific prep was she able to perform somewhat decently against him. Absolutely nothing in the fight puts her close to him in power. This is the most circumstantial ever fight with one side holding back multiple times. Had she not had the thermal det, she'd be long dead.

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Vaelias wrote:and he is still getting overpowered in a saber lock and getting beaten up even more, the word 'suddenly' here is telling of Aurra being too fast for Jacen to even react, especially when she is 'over him'

Jacen is only doing semi-decent against Aurra from a distance after catching her by surprise and in an engagement that is not purely force based, and again im not arguing for utter superiority on Aurra's part, but they are clearly close to each other, and again that's all that is needed for the scaling to work, for this to work in your favor you would have to argue that Jacen is just so far beyond Aurra, which is simply demonstrably untrue and honestly just bad-faith, if Aurra can do this to a much more powerful Jacen experiencing multiple Temporary Amps, then imagine a confrontation between TUF Jacen and Aurra, TUF Jacen of course being far weaker than Tempest Jacen

Lol. I could use your "muh superior ground and physical strength only" point against you here but I've more than dismantled this claim. There is no proximity. He is far beyond her. I could go further, but I've proved my point.

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Vaelias wrote:here we see that it is Sing's drive and progression comes directly from her job and her being active, obviously post Empire there will be less activity and therefore less drive for progression

Okay, so? Basically just says she loves hunting. Doesn't mean she's weaker.

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Vaelias wrote:ok this doesnt mean much, Aurra is around 90 years old, based on her species she could look 70 and still appear youthful for her age

Leia is clearly judging her by human standards

In fact..... I'll just ignore all your points regarding Aurra's age and let the evidence of her physical capabilities and appearance and age speak for itself. TLDR: No. She's not past her physical prime. Not in performance or age. Her species ages way slower and has a longer lifespan. Tempest and Coruscant Nights came out well after the NEGC. And therefore contradicts and overwrites the aging line.

Post Prime? Nay:

To recap:

Vaelias wrote:Visible human-like aging from 51BBY - 31BBY and then more so up until 21BBY

This means jack.

Vaelias wrote:Is stated to be aging even by the OT

And is contradicted later on.

Vaelias wrote:demonstrated decline

Not really.

Vaelias wrote:relies on her job to keep her going

This means jack. And doesn't even help your case as per the Databank entry I've posted.

Vaelias wrote:is inactive and is hardly known anymore

Wrong. As per the scans above.

Vaelias wrote:AURRA SING NO DECLINE EVIDENCE
>Leia saying she looks younger than her actual age

You seem to forget the other scans I posted that support my point. Face it. There's more to back my case than yours.

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Vaelias wrote:Well its more the point Aurra is put > Jacen, even in stats, evidence which directly supports a very solid case actually, and you have yet to prove he is massively sub TUF Jacen

Already did. But here's more:

-First Look: Traitor

"Jacen, I am so proud of you," she whispered. "This is the greatest moment of a teacher's life: when she is surpassed by her student."

-Traitor

---

Vaelias wrote:Well why was he a master and she was not ? Aayla was one of the youngest people ever to be made a master so she obviously got it as soon as it was due, and it was not yet due at this time, but, again I don't even need him to be more powerful for the scaling to work, only around the same level, which they evidently are given their similar feat, or are you suggesting Jedi Knight Aayla would one shot Master Ryelli? seems unlikely

I'm glad you concede to Aayla>Ryelli. Another chain link broken.

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Vaelias wrote:or perhaps most powerful 'Jedi' just refers to the Jedi Knights, thusly would not include Kyp

Citation needed.

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Vaelias wrote:not really, right off the bat he has his weapon clutched, the very same thing could happen to Jacen in that situation, there are circumstances at play in all situations like this, which is why I don't like it as a definitive claim to ones superiority, not to mention the gravity advantage Jacen has

Read the passage again. Kyp struck with his lightsaber, it didn't do anything, then he got his lightsaber caught in a tug of war. It started on neutral ground and is valid.

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Vaelias wrote:Why would he not still have the advantage for the rest of the kills?

It was just that one. Jacen was close enough to that dovin basal for the gravitic advantage for that kill only. He was moving around the citadel the rest of the fight. And come on now. Such a trick would only work once.

The gravity-tweaking dovin basal set in the base of the throne made it impossible for Jacen or his opponents to venture closer to the throne than the shallow moat that encircled it without being tugged violently to the yorik coral floor. Jacen took advantage of the gravitic anomaly now, as one of the slayers lunged for him. He leapt high into the air, and the warrior flew under his feet, only to be pulled to the floor facefirst, so that by the time Jacen had twisted in the air and landed he was able to drive his blade into the small of the warrior's back, almost pinioning him to the floor.

-TUF

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Vaelias wrote:like a gorilla could take on 10 femboys and then the other gorilla could take on 10 bodybuilders and strongmen its hardly a fair comparison to say the first gorilla is superior because he stomped the femboys instantly and the other nearly died to the 10 bodybuilders and strongmen, we simply do not know the ins and outs which is why again, I don't like these types of comparisons

Do you know what Slayers are? They're not normal warriors. They were very specifically engineered. This is a super close one to one feat comparison lol. You have yet to make any debunk to this feat comparison.

-EG to Warfare

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Vaelias wrote:you don't see how that is any less impressive ?? its not his power that is killing the Leviathan, its the storms power, its like driving a car to the top of the hill and letting it roll down, killing dozens of people, you directed the car, that doesnt mean you can kill dozens of people with such ease with your bare hands, this my friend is where your scaling completely falls apart, Kyp merely directs some lighting to kill the Leviathan

Even IF it's not an impressive showing of his control, hardly hurts me. Because him killing the beast isn't the only evidence of his superiority/parity. As I've covered. He still puts up an amazing fight.

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Vaelias wrote:yeh some high level Leviathans may be above most Wyrm's by default, but in this case we have an ultra super hyped Wyrm worshiped as a god vs a Juvenile low tier Leviathan, holistically I really do not see any author agreeing this Leviathan would be above Naga Sadows God-Like Wyrm hyped as the test for the heir to the Dark Lord Mantle from the Sith's Golden Age, not that it matters anyway seeing as it was the power of the Corbos Storm that killed it not Kyp

Being worshipped as a deity = stronger? All hail C3-PO and Han then.



It's no stretch to assume the spawn of a demigod is greater than a normal wyrm. It's just default above.

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Vaelias wrote:Ahhh yes because being offput by the victims is much more of a hinderance than having just been concussed and stripped of your powers with terrible mental confliction, poor Kyp

Hearing anguished screams of thousands nonstop. Feeling their suffering. That right there is a hindrance.

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Vaelias wrote:Kyp didn't fight on par with it, he danced around it for a bit before resorting to having to use the planetary nexus' power to kill it, saying he fought on par with it is implying Kyp could have defeated it without the use of the storm, which is simply untrue, Kyp (the side character) is simply not as powerful as Kun anyway, a fraction of Kuns power caused Kyp to decay and age shortly after where Kun never displayed any decay at all, meaning yes, Kun has far more potential than Kyp,

Where is it said that Kyp would've lost without the storm? And again. Even if he would have, he still fought on par with the creature for longer than Kun. As for Kun during JA, that's obviously a different Kun. Wonky comparison on your part.

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Vaelias wrote:actualized in a time where the Jedi are in a near prime state of power, as oppose to the New Jedi Order, which are 'half trained' compared to the TPM council, which I have proven Ulic scales to via Malleus Scaling

Lol. You're really using that Vergere quote? Well for one: Prior to that scene, she only met the Myrkr strike team. So obviously she would be referring to them. (Almost all of em weren't even knighted lol) Even IF she wasn't, you do know Vergere is infamous for bullshitting, right? And furthermore, power isn't even the subject of this quote.

In fact, there's more evidence to suggest NJO>PT. And this evidence is way more reliable than Vergere in that scene.

-SW Miniatures: Universe Preview 3

-Power of the Jedi

This is another break in you case. (By default) NJO Master > NJO Knight > PT Knight < PT Master

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Stats:

Don't for a second think that creature scaling is the only avenue I have of supremacy.

Let's look at some stats. As we see here, Balance Point Jacen is solidly below Ulic. These stats portray Ulic shortly after Arca's death. This Ulic would be greater than or equal to Uprising Ulic.

-NJO Sourcebook

-Power of the Jedi

Compare that with Kyp's stats. Ulic is below Kyp here. But wait. This is Kyp as of Vector Prime.

-NJO Sourcebook

Kyp would no doubt be stronger as of TUF.
As for Jacen, we have direct confirmation that he grows greatly as of Star By Star by JD Wilker (One of the authors for both POTJ and the NJO Sourcebook)

-WOTC Talkin with JD

So:
Uprising Ulic ~ < Post Uprising Ulic > Balance Point Jacen < < SBS Jacen < < < < TUF Jacen

As well as:
Uprising Ulic ~ < Post Uprising Ulic < VP Kyp < < < TUF Kyp < TUF Jacen

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Jacen's superior force knowledge:

There's more hype in Jacen's favor too. He has abilities that Ulic has no experience with:

Jacen has experience and knowledge with Electric Judgment. It was strong enough to throw back and knock out a bunch of Vong warriors:

The Yuuzhan Vong kept coming, dozens of them lunging, charging, hurling thud bugs., spitting poison from the heads of their amphistaffs. Jacen's blaster was running out of charges. His lightsaber was a brilliant green blur as it parried and slashed. Pace by pace., he stepped back into the narrowing shaft.

Jacen felt rage building in him, a red fury that was his response to his own despair. The blaster hummed empty and he threw it at the warrior. And then he remembered the power he could call upon, the power fueled by the kind of despair and anger he felt now and had felt before, and he hurled it at the warrior, the brilliant emerald fire that lanced from his fingertips.

The Force lightning threw the first rank of Yuuzhan Vong back into their comrades, and in the confusion Jacen launched another blaze of fire. He hadn't killed them-the murderous form of lightning was a dark side weapon-but they wouldn't be waking for a long time.

-Destiny's Way

He also has knowledge on the art of the small. He's so potent with it that he's able to tank a point blank blast of lethal poison and only be somewhat weakened:

Poison spewed from the plaeryin bol. Han was too encumbered to twist himself or Jaina out of its path. In a blur, Jacen interposed himself between Nom Anor and his father, and took the lethal gush full in the face.

Even better than hoped for! Nom Anor thought. With Jacen out of the way, he could easily incapacitate the others. With his right hand, he reached for the little finger of his left. At the same time, he steeled himself for a dash across the grotto. It would take a moment for the knockout gas released by the false digit to reach full effect, and that moment constituted all the time he had to reach the escape craft lock and seal it behind him. In the instant his hands met, he heard the snap-hiss of a lightsaber.

And in the interminable instant that followed, he watched Leia's energy blade sever his left hand at the wrist, and watched himself falling to his knees in shock and searing pain. Worse, it was Jacen who came to his side, weakened by the plaeryin bol's venom, but very much alive.

-TUF

-Jedi vs Sith

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So not only does Jacen have scaling that'd make him superior to Ulic, he's also favored in stats and he has abilities that will help him a lot more in fights.

Jacen stands firm.

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Character count: 7136 (I went beyond the character limit. As Vaelias and I have agreed upon, he will be granted more characters in his coming response)

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More on Warb Null in my coming response. Best of luck with the response. Good debate so far.