Odan Urr vs Ben Kenobi

^

Ben due to his parity with Sheev, unless if Odan just so happens to be better than Sheev.

Ben is weaker than Sheev per Lucas in Making of ROTJ and Making of TPM.

Ben via parity with ANH Sheev and being a level or two below ESB Sheev.

@BreakofDawn: A reminder to respond here:

DarthAnt66 wrote:@BreakofDawn: 



Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression of your argument is: "Chee doesn't want to comment on power-levels, so he's just deferring to the last time Lucas commented on the subject. However, Lucas did this a long time ago, merely floated the idea, and never cemented it anywhere, so it's not binding." 

That's a fair stance, especially under our updated rules that members aren't forced to adhere to Lucasfilm Licensing policy, but note the argument is nevertheless not consistent with Lucasfilm Licensing policy. G-Canon includes both Lucas' official statements and internal draft notes. Chee recognizes that  Lucas' 1970s/1980s statements as G-Canon are potentially outdated and so regulates them, but he still uses this quote here, so clearly he doesn't think it's outdated. And the nature of the quote is less Lucas toying with ideas and more Lucas "immediately" devising a "simple explanation" to a possible plot hole and then moving on, never looking back. So, its default status is G-Canon, Chee affirms it as G-Canon by using it and not dismissing it as dated, and there's no reason for it to have changed anyway. Not to mention there's at least three post-ROTJ novels that also float this idea Ben is far more powerful than Vader in the Force, too.

As I noted, this doesn't cause Ben/Vader > ESB Palpatine as Lucas has directly stated in the Making of ROTJ that ESB and ROTJ Palpatine is far more powerful than Vader and Ben. Note the number systems refer to ESB Palpatine, not ANH Palpatine, so you can't try to force some ESB Palpatine >> ESB Vader >> ANH Palpatine dynamic (which would be overwritten by Lucas' Anakin/Maul/Jinn > Vader/Ben comments anyway). Also, note the difference between Lucas floating a possible power-level for a future character (Palpatine) versus Lucas looking back at a completed character and solidifying his power-level (Ben).

DarthAnt66 wrote:Ben is weaker than Sheev per Lucas in Making of ROTJ and Making of TPM.

Do these statements pertain to Force power?

@DarthAnt66 Don't worry, I haven't forgotten. Just taking longer to prioritise it than expected.

Ben

Latham2000 wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:Ben is weaker than Sheev per Lucas in Making of ROTJ and Making of TPM.

Do these statements pertain to Force power?

"Jedi are the chiefs, they are the warriors who go out and fight with their swords. The Emperor and
Yoda are the priests who are the spiritual chiefs; they have powers that are much stronger."

(George Lucas, Making of Return of the Jedi)

And I'm sure you're familiar with all of Lucas' PT / OT commentary.

@darthant66 Have a few minutes to spare so I'll respond here, if that's cool with you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression of your argument is: "Chee doesn't want to comment on power-levels, so he's just deferring to the last time Lucas commented on the subject. However, Lucas did this a long time ago, merely floated the idea, and never cemented it anywhere, so it's not binding."

That's a fair stance, especially under our updated rules that members aren't forced to adhere to Lucasfilm Licensing policy, but note the argument is nevertheless not consistent with Lucasfilm Licensing policy. G-Canon includes both Lucas' official statements and internal draft notes. Chee recognizes that  Lucas' 1970s/1980s statements as G-Canon are potentially outdated and so regulates them, but he still uses this quote here, so clearly he doesn't think it's outdated.

This doesn't refute my earlier point:


Chee acknowledging those quotes doesn't make them the official stance, nor representative of those of Lucas' and the narrative as a whole. On a platform where he insists that he avoids answering questions relating to power or "who would win/who's stronger?", he simply sticks to the medium presented, in which case he uses George's very early drafts of the script as they are the only real time Lucas commented on the two. Likewise, Lucas never committed those statements to binding material, as they were simply musings as possible ways to explain the story, ones that we can see never came to fruition for obvious reasons, arguably in a similar vein to his Vader being "maybe" 80% of Sidious:

Chee notes down George's musings and notes regardless of if they end up being canon or not, and in the same breath noted that Lucas would often change his mind before, during and after providing those notes:



Chee doesn't act like they're irrefutable facts. He throws them out to a Twitter user to show that he doesn't keep track.

It's also worth noting that Chee is potentially referring to Canon, in any case:



Unless you think he's nonchalantly blending continuities even as of 2019 (5 years after the EU became Legends), of course.

And the nature of the quote is less Lucas toying with ideas and more Lucas "immediately" devising a "simple explanation" to a possible plot hole and then moving on, never looking back. So, its default status is G-Canon, Chee affirms it as G-Canon by using it and not dismissing it as dated, and there's no reason for it to have changed anyway. Not to mention there's at least three post-ROTJ novels that also float this idea Ben is far more powerful than Vader in the Force, too.

Actually, Lucas' actual quote regarding it was an unsure one in tone:



It was an idea that Lucas toyed with but never committed to, fairly clearly proven by the fact that he never committed it to any version of the script, nor even the novel, which Chee has also clarified is a medium Lucas would often use to convey details he couldn't in the film:



I'm also curious what three post-ROTJ novels you're referring to, or why they override ANH's script, novel, From The Adventures of Luke Skywalker or the other material like Death Star and The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobithat portrays Vader as clearly more powerful (his exerting of his strength in the Force causing Ben to sweat buckets and his eyes to become bleary).

As I noted, this doesn't cause Ben/Vader > ESB Palpatine as Lucas has directly stated in the Making of ROTJ that ESB and ROTJ Palpatine is far more powerful than Vader and Ben.

I'm confused by this, actually. Where in the ROTJ quote do you see it pertaining to ESB Sidious being >> Vader or Ben? I'm assuming you mean this one:

"Jedi are the chiefs, they are the warriors who go out and fight with their swords. The Emperor and Yoda are the priests who are the spiritual chiefs; they have powers that are much stronger."

In which case, I don't see the contradiction since the Lucas quote explicitly states that Sidious is well on his way to becoming an all-powerful 10:



So nothing in those two Lucas quotes stops Sidious growing exponentially more powerful, going from a 6 as of ANH/ESB to, say, an 8 or 9 by ROTJ. If anything, Lucas' words only serve to supplement that, as does the fact that the Making of shows that Lucas was treating ROTJ as the first time we've ever been shown Sidious' powers and so they had to be clarified (and so exponentially more powerful than those of the likes of Vader, which - again - doesn't prevent Sidious from being a 6).

Note the number systems refer to ESB Palpatine, not ANH Palpatine, so you can't try to force some ESB Palpatine >> ESB Vader >> ANH Palpatine dynamic

I never tried to do so. In fact, that's an argument I've derided in my own blog as a potential interpretation of a very messy and hypothetical quote by Lucas.

(which would be overwritten by Lucas' Anakin/Maul/Jinn > Vader/Ben comments anyway).

From two decades ago. He hasn't reiterated these claims since around 2000, - coincidentally, when he was promoting the PT and the choreography and fight scenes which were criticised around the time - nor are they reflected in material past that point, including in countless Dark Times material (which Lucas had been extremely secretive about until after ROTS) where Vader defeats PT Jedi or scales above characters who have done so. As Chee himself has said, this material cannot stray from Lucas' intent (unless he for some reason or another explicitly approves it, of course):



From TFU to the Purge comics, Lucas has been heavily involved in Vader-related material since making those claims. Should Vader be shown to be powerful or skilled enough to take on Jedi "in their full flower" or "in their prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" and Lucas had a problem with it, then he most certainly would have vetoed it. The fact that he has never vetoed anything showing Vader as a powerhouse capable of taking on PT Jedi or material comparing him to PT Jedi/Sith is rather telling, as is his A) retconning of his original comments that Vader, Ben and Luke aren't Jedi, B) comparisons between Vader and Dooku (once) or Maul (twice), C) clarification that only ANH Vader was the "cripple" he identifies in his earlier comments (which in turn line up with the IU material and context that Lucas has overseen and approved for around 43 years, now). That's not to mention Vader at his weakest point in the trilogy (ANH) being able to contend with and hold his own (even gain the advantage a couple of times) against TPM Maul despite significant disadvantages in S-Canon material that, while not part of continuity (hence its nature as S-Canon), is referenced in existing lore.

Also, note the difference between Lucas floating a possible power-level for a future character (Palpatine) versus Lucas looking back at a completed character and solidifying his power-level (Ben).

Again, nothing about that ROTJ quote I've posted (please correct me if you had another in mind) pertains to ESB Sidious. It's purely referring to ROTJ Sidious, who can be exponentially more powerful than ESB Sidious.

Missed this. Bump for later today

@DarthAnt66

Missed this. Bump for later today

>Doesn't post.

Legit me tier, tbh.

Urr is above Thon probably and is just really OP