★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander

I'll vote for Kun of Entities of all kinds are banned which I recommend to update the list.

Voting Outlander, 100%. He smites Kun.

You have already voted.

Outlander craps

THE DARK SIDE RISES: The Mental Powers of Exar Kun


In this little tirade, I will explain the exact nature and scale of Kun's telepathic abilities. Something I feel have often gone under-looked and unnoticed simply because Kun never displayed them prominently within TOTJ. However based on scaling and based on what we have seen, Kun is an INCREDIBLY potent telepath, one of the most potent we have seen in all of Star Wars. I will break this up into two posts and four sections. What we have seen in TOTJ, what see in I, Jedi and and Jedi Academy, Scaling, and what this means


What we see in Tales of the Jedi


What we see in Tales of the Jedi primarily establishes is the general scale and the ease of which Kun is capable of uses telepathic abilities. Here in the scene where we that even before Kun became a Sith Lord, he was capable of sending telekinetic threads all across the Galaxy

Ulic unleashes a force of unruly fury at the death of Master Arca, avenging the death by defeating Keto, and taking the Krath throne by the side of Aleema. Meanwhile on Yavin 4, a more powerful EXAR KUN rests in his meditation chamber, reaching out across the galaxy and detecting other Sith practitioners with his psychic tendrils.

What is important about this, and why I want to bring it up is that this isn't Kun talking to one known individual from across a galaxy. This isn't Kun reaching out or sensing someone he has a connection to. This is Kun sending psychic tendrils throughout the galaxy, individually searching for other practitioners of Sith Arts. If you conflate these two, you are quite simply a moron. The level of precision is astounding, that he must be going system by system, planet by planet and searching for force sensitives with specific force "signature", those being the practitioners of Sith Arts. This level of precision in this history of Star Wars is almost unparalleled. Here, we see this level of precision repeated with Kun's scanning of the city of Cinnigar

Credit: Tales of the Jedi Omnibus Vol.2 wrote:"Help!"
"No one will help you, no one even knows."
"But your ship! Energy blasts! Scanners!"
"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"
"Who.. are you?"
"I? Soon, I shall be the man who conquered this planet, the man who rules the galaxy. But for this moment, I am the man who murdered you."

Here, Kun again scans the minds of the continent sized City of Cinnigar. Again, this is NOT impressive because he was able to fuck with the mind of a couple of chumps. This is impressive because of the level precision involved. Before anyone could scan the ship or even notice its approach, Kun reached out through continent sized this city of billions and identified an mindwiped anyone who could have viewed him.

Here, we have the third major instance of Kun's telepathy, the Senate scene

Ulic’s trial was interrupted by Exar Kun, who met his former Master face to face for the first time since his long descent into darkness. The two fought, and Vodo-Siosk Baas was no match for Exar Kun’s double-bladed lightsaber and deep reserve of dark side power. Vodo-Siosk perished, slain by his former apprentice.
Credit: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook 

The point of this feat is not again that he did this feat. The power required to capture and freeze tens of thousands of individuals with telepathy is certainly no joke. But the point here is that he was able to use these abilities while actively in combat and with seemingly little to no effort. 

So what have we learnt from Tales of the Jedi? That Kun is capable of using telepathic abilities on an incredibly vast scale and do so with incredible precision

Jedi Academy and I, Jedi

Something I want to establish right off the bat is that Kun was hilariously weakened during the events of Jedi Academy and the Jedi Academy based section of I Jedi. This is almost unarguable, Kun after seemingly every use of power had to become dormant to regain his power. 

The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun's dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Sun Crusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out. I had no way to determine how powerful Exar Kun could be, but it struck me as possible that he'd expended a lot of energy to defeat a Jedi Master. There was no telling how long it would take for him to recover, but with each passing day the apprentices grew in strength as well.

Again, even if Kun himself had his potential increased by the Yavin IV ritual, I would liken this situation as being somewhat similar in nature to Vitiate existing as a wraithlike spirit before he regained a more potent level of power Zoist. He clearly had very little energy to actively expend on things. 

Even taking this into account, Kun displays a staggering level of proficiency with telepathic abilities in Jedi Academy and I, Jedi

Credit: Jedi Academy Trilogy Volume 3: Champions of the Force wrote:And then the haunting voice of Exar Kun rose to a wail in his mind, an utterly forlorn scream as if he were being torn out of this universe and exiled to another place entirely, where he could torment Kyp Durron no more. Kyp snapped backward in his control seat as if an invisible tow cable had been severed. His arms and head dangled like a puppet with suddenly snipped strings. The cool wind of freedom whistled through his mind and body. He blinked his eyes and shuddered with revulsion at what he had been about to do.

Here we see Kun directly possess and enslave the mind of a powerfully force sensitive individual from across the galaxy. This is notably very, very hard to do. Luke Skywalker himself found an incredible amount of difficulty bypassing the inner layers of a person's psyche. 

Luke reached to the back of her mind, an area of deep primal memories but little conscious thought. He doubted he could get any defensive reaction there, but no attacker would be likely to strike at such places. Her thoughts were like a map laid out in front of him, and Luke touched inward to an isolated nub in her mind. He pushed--
And suddenly felt as if a giant invisible palm had planted itself on his chest and shoved backward. Luke stumbled to keep his balance, taking two steps away from her. Leia's eyes went wide, and her mouth dropped open in surprise.

Even in this state of weakness, Kun maintained an incredible ability to bore into and and extract information from the mind of even force sensitives. Kun was capable of completely and utterly reading the mind Corran Horn insanely before he was even able to react to bring up his defenses.

"Quite droll, Keiran, not as full of anger or fear as the others." Exar Kun's obsidian gaze bored into me. I tried to armor my mind against him the way I had with Mara Jade, but he was in and out too quickly for me to stop him. "You have more experience and more maturity. You are a riper fruit."

It was explicitly noted that Mara Jade was also not capable of doing this to Corran Horn, and although Mara Jade was admittedly no TP savant she was capable of at least defending herself against Darth Vader in telepathic contests. It's even somewhat implied that Kun had read her mind in I Jedi as well. 

Source: The Last Command wrote:But there was a mental pattern the Emperor had taught her long ago, a pattern for those times when he'd wanted his instructions hidden even from Vader.

So we know that Kun is at the very least many times superior to Mara Jade and Vader in overall telepathic ability. 

Additionally, his attacks in this state are incredibly personal and completely devastating. His attack was able to completely paralyze Corran Horn with basically a mental panic attack of conflicting voices and personal attacks. 

This is a bit long, so I will spoiler tag it if possible 

Spoiler:

The personal nature of these attacks will become VERY relevant for later, but for now this is the end of post one. What we have learned from I, Jedi and Jedi Academy is that Kun had mental prowess while hideously weakened that was FAR above the level of Mara Jade at the absolute least, potentially far above the level of Vader. He uses these powers with extreme sadism, extracting knowledge in from his enemies within an instant and turning it on them in the most mentally traumatic ways his mind can think of

LadyKulvax wrote:You have already voted.

My bad, thought my last vote was for Darish Vol. Completely forgot I voted for this round too.

DARTH MALAK > EXAR KUN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd3QRTV9fFc

I apologize for not getting  to this sooner, since I may have been able to curb the influx of Kun votes before they began. 

[1].The quote you're using here is only applicable by depending on your sole interpretation. The Star Forge providing Malak with far greater powers and Malak himself having them are not one in the same. To 'provide' is to offer a supply or quantity of something to something else. It is not the same as literally having it. The Star Forge itself is far more powerful than anyone above. It can TP mindrape and destroy civilisations and no one is above it. Malak's amplification is simply not equating to this power.

Alright, let's go through this.

The Star Forge providing Malak with far greater powers and Malak himself having them are not one in the same. To 'provide' is to offer a supply or quantity of something to something else. It is not the same as literally having it.

Malak established a connection with the Star Forge's sentience, which then funnels the station's raw power into him. Hence, the Star Forge "provides Malak with powers far greater than Freedon Nadd or Exar Kun." I am lost why you claim the Star Forge "providing" Malak with power means ... the Star Forge isn't "providing" Malak with power? Huh? Did Malak not grow more powerful, and was that power not "provided" by the Star Forge? (He did, and it did.) If you are provided with the answer key to a test, do you not have the answer key? (You do.) Did the Valley of the Jedi not provide Jerec with powers beyond almost anyone can imagine? (It did.) You even define "provides" by "offering a quantity of something to something else. In this case, it's the Star Forge offering power to Malak. Let's look at what the very same article says, too.



Just as I said. Malak "possesses" "enhanced Force powers" via "using" the Star Forge. Put another way, the Star Forge "provides Malak with powers," which he then "possesses," thereby enhancing his Force powers. See how that works? Also, why do you figure they then gave Malak stats that far outstrip Nadd and Kun's own-- and explicitly attribute this to his enhanced Force powers--yet didn't mean to say Malak was far more powerful than Kun or Nadd half-a-page above? 

And, to beat a dead horse, the "provide" in "Did it provide him with powers far greater than Freedon Nadd or Exar Kun, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?" necessarily must also work in the context of cybernetic enhancement. Obviously cybernetic enhancement "provides" Malak with something that he, then, "literally has," contrary to your hot take that you don't "literally have" something provided to you. Let's both agree to forget that you ever argued that one. 

The Star Forge itself is far more powerful than anyone above. It can TP mindrape and destroy civilisations and no one is above it. Malak's amplification is simply not equating to this power.

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that you have famously and consistently argued in the past that Exar Kun is more powerful than the Star Forge. I only hope your change of opinion on this did not coincide with thinking this as a loophole you could exploit to sneak Kun under this quote.   No matter, though.



The quote isn't referring to the Star Forge space station itself, lol. That's known because the "too simple" alternative explanation is "cybernetic enhancement" (how Lord Draahg and Darth Skotia became more powerful). Cybernetic enhancement is strictly personal. To say it's "too simple" an explanation is to say there's a more complex explanation as to how he has benefits similar to those through cybernetic enhancement. Otherwise, it's not "too simple" an explanation--it's a wrong explanation. Your proposed theory of "Did cybernetic enhancement provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was that too simple an explanation and, in actuality, it is the STAR FORGE SPACE STATION?" doesn't work then, does it? If you have powers far greater than Nadd or Kun, the reason of having cybernetics enhance your Force powers wouldn't just be "too simple an explanation" for having a super-weapon that churns out ships and drains planets. That's a completely different thing--completely different meanings of power. However, what cybernetic enhancement is too simple an explanation for is his Star Forge-provided enhanced Force powers.

[2].Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, the quote is not by itself absolute. It needs to be demonstratably proven by holding up to scrutiny against other sources. Malak's quote does not.

Recall the origins of this quote. It's not just some randomly slipped in thing on some random article. Lucasfilm Licensing wanted this specific article written and to be meticulously involved at every stage in its creation, including hiring the writer, providing the relevant material, and fact-checking it twice. Leland Chee, who decides what is canon and what isn't, even says he loves this specific article because of his work on it. It's as valid as any C-Canon quote in continuity--arguably more so, given Chee's and Licensing's heavy involvement allows us to be confident everything is for-sure accurate. And hence why Chee "liked" on Twitter when the author said Malak is more powerful than Kun. So, with that in mind, let's check out the other sources that allegedly totally contradict this rigorously vetted statement ...

[3].KotOR's internal scaling places Ragnos and Nadd above Darth Nihilus in power who is a magnitude above Kreia and all of her peers due to Kreia's own admission which is supported by the script stating Nihilus was even further above them than that. All of which we know through canonically accurate estimations from Kreia through the Telos IV holocrons and the authorial support of Chris Avellone, as well as statements in KOTOR 2's strategy guide in further support.

If you're going to argue Malak's superiority to Kun "needs to be demonstrably proven by holding up to scrutiny against other sources," then you best not be arguing Ragnos or Nadd are with someone who can stroll up to a planet, reach out with his hands, and create turbolaser-barrage damage effects as he devours all its life and hundreds of Jedi. That's a feat of raw destructive potency unreplicated in the Star Wars mythos besides, perhaps, Palpatine's Force storm. Seriously, look at these images:

Link 1, link 2 (click both)

You see those explosions and rubble? A planet laid flat? That's, per the script, due to a cloud of dark side power Nihilus unleashed on the planet.



Good luck showing me where Nadd or Kun do that. Do you think Kun would have any reservations about just destroying Coruscant or a portion of Coruscant with his powers, if he could? Kun's not even trying to claim territory. He's just running from planet to planet causing genocides and chaos.

And, if we're somehow saying they can, then you best believe it Revan could too.

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else [Meetra Surik] had ever met. (Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan)

Right, "command of the Force" means Force mastery, right? No, lol. Command of the Force is already shown to refer to power earlier in the novel.

The Jedi’s command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength. (Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan)

Scourge "senses" Revan's command of the Force, even while drugged. Explain to me how Scourge is sensing Force mastery. Or, pretending it didn't just say "sense" twice in a row in reference to "his strength," how Revan would even be displaying Force mastery if he's locked in a cage with Force-depressant drugs?

Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. (Source: Star Wars Darth Bane - Path of Destruction)

But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host's physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force. (Source: Star Wars Darth Bane - Dynasty of Evil)

Karphysyn also has "command of the Force" to mean power repeatedly throughout his Bane Trilogy.

He came down with a heavy thud, the inexplicable power that still impeded his connection to the Force robbing him of a graceful landing ... The Iktotchi was too quick for him to beat in a straight-up fight: not with her disrupting his connection to the Force and slowing him down. (Source: Star Wars Darth Bane - Dynasty of Evil)

Karpyshyn distinguishes all that with "connection to the Force," which seemingly refers to the inflow of Force energy into the individual.

Command of the Force = usable power. Connection to the Force = Force inflow. Makes sense, too. While I disagree that Nihilus can be conventionally scaled or ranked and thus don't bind this quote to him, if you're throwing Nadd and Kun above him off Kreia then you best throw Revan above him off Meetra.

In the above quote, the Mandalorian is explaining who the tomb is for and why its taint is dangerous to them. Kreia agrees with this clearly, feels his 'legacy lives on in the very stones of his resting place' so is even more aware of his power. And rather infamously, whenever someone says something she disagrees with, be it the player or an NPC, she goes out of the way to say they're wrong.

I also can't see how this could be claiming Nadd is a worse ruler or tyrant. Nadd was a dick to the people of Onderon. Malak bombarded Taris and Telos IV into slag and bombed Dantooine to boot. Along with other planets I may be unaware of. I'd wager that's being worse than Nadd in terms of cruelty and slaughter.

"Freedon Nadd was a dark Jedi, he conquered Onderon long ago and became their king. The royal line is directly descended from him. The stories say that he was far worse than Revan and Malak ever were. This place is tainted and the Sith presence here makes the danger great."

"The soldier is correct. The dark side is strong here... and it will grant its strength to the Sith."

So, we're tossing the Malak quote because of *squints* a line from Kreia that was cut from the final game? Nice. Let's list off the other issues. 

(1) Kreia agrees specifically with the last sentence, basically repeating the claim. She never agrees that they're far worse than Revan and Malak.

(2) How would the stories even convey he's more powerful than Revan and Malak? There's no in-universe way to know that, as you can't sense or fight both of them to compare since they lived in different centuries. Plus, Revan and Malak's best feats are personal. They don't have public displays of power like Nadd dominating Onderon. 

(3) There's no way Kreia could even potentially confirm the claim, as she never interacts with Revan or Malak after the Mandalorian Wars. 

(4) All Kreia does the entire game is fellate Revan. She says he's the personification of power and the heart of the Force, which Avellone clarifies to mean she thinks Revan is one of the most powerful Force users ever. And all Avellone--the writer of KOTOR 2--does promoting the game is fellate Revan. He says he's the Luke Skywalker of the era and could beat basically everyone and anyone. Meanwhile, Kreia walks into Nadd's tomb and notes how it seems she had previously underestimated Nadd's power, implying she didn't even think that highly of it when she agreed with the Mandalorian minutes before: "Freedon Nadd's power appears to be underestimated." Since you appealed to intent, I have a hard time believing Kreia or Avellone would randomly note, "Oh, yeah, but this Nadd guy who I don't even think that highly of is stronger than Power Incarnate." That seems like a big and narratively inconsistent claim. It's evident she's not agreeing with the Mandalorian about that. 

(5) Rather than a Mandalorian mentioning he somehow heard Nadd had greater Force power than Revan or Malak, consider Nadd is infamous for his cruelty against Onderon, violently subjugating its population and trying to kill those who resisted. Though Malak laid waste to worlds, that doesn't preclude Nadd being "worse" than Malak. "Worse" isn't just defined by death count. Now that's something the stories could plausibly convey and a non-Force sensitive Mandalorian would highlight.

Dantooine, Worlds, Knights of the Old Republic, Games, LucasArts website wrote:
The most notable feature of Dantooine is the Jedi academy, originally founded by Jedi Master Vodo-Siosk Baas. For generations now it has served to train promising Jedi Padawans, with several dozen students in attendance at any given time. The most infamous graduate, however, is that of Exar Kun, trained by Vodo-Siosk Baas himself. Exar Kun was a Jedi Apprentice that turned away from the light side to embrace the seductive power of ancient Sith magic. Forty years ago he began a war upon the Republic that had grave consequences, but through great effort and sacrifice on the part of the Jedi he was defeated. The legacy of his taint is slowly passing away in the wake of the Mandalorian Wars and the coming of a new Sith threat.

Exar Kun is the most infamous graduate of the Dantooine academy due to the powers he gained through Sith magic and the war he started after it.

Absolutely nowhere does that quote say Kun is more infamous than Revan or Malak because he's more powerful. That's not even why someone would be infamous. Infamous is not interchangeable with power. Kun is very famous and very bad. He ran around the galaxy with his many armies and superweapons killing everyone and everything. Trillions of people died in the conflict, way more than the Jedi Civil War. Revan and Malak had many worlds willingly join them because they were heroes and caused far less destruction. And how are you seriously using "infamous" to mean Force power when you're arguing the Malak quote isn't about Force power?



---

CONCLUSION

There's no getting around the Malak quote. All these different attempts to break it only further demonstrates its absolute veracity and resistance to scrutiny. Malak is far more powerful than Kun yet gets beat down many times in a row by a Revan who had just fought armies. A more powerful Revan loses to a foe (novel Vitiate) weaker than one (the Voice) that the Outlander defeats. Arcann pushes that Outlander's shit in, though the Outlander comes back after mega-growth! to push Arcann's shit in, then his far more powerful sister's shit in. Vote the Outlander because he's canonically superior. The Outlander >> Arcann >> Hero of Tython >> Revan Reborn >> Darth Malak >> Exar Kun. It just is what it is. If you disagree, please respond explaining how Kun would do better against Malgus than a laughably more powerful character would? 

 

@Gianfi
@CuckedCurry
@EmperorCaedus
@ScionOfSkywalker77
@lorenzo.r.2nd
@Jedi_Jesus
@> Korriban
@Syndiciate
@The lord of hunger

Since you all voted for Kun, I'm interested if you could justify your reasoning for putting Kun above Malak?

Ant's so scared of Outlander losing to Kun that he's resorted to tagging all of Kun's supporters to force them to switch to his opinion with a call-out.

The rebuttal will come shortly.

Just got a couple of nitpicks here.

I have no interest in debating the lesser SWTOR chains because I don't need to. They're simply not worthy of pointing out. Instead let's focus on much more direct comparisons of feats and go from there.

Interesting turn of events considering you're a huge proponent of TOR scaling:

LadyKulvax wrote:This is the kind of utterly insane scaling Outlander gets, which is why there's no way on earth that the team wins:

(Valkorion >> Spirit!Valkorion >> Outlander, Arcann & Spirit!Vaylin >>) The Outlander > Vaylin >> Chained!Vaylin ~ Arcann > (Weakened)Spirit!Valkorion >>> Spirit!Vitiate ~ Ziost > YavinIV!Vitiate > Dark Revan >> Hero of Tython, Lord Scourge, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko & the Protagonist Strike Team >> Protagonist Strike Team (aid of mental protection) > Dread Masters ~ multi-system power projection; TK dominating DreadWar!Hero of Tython; destroying fleets >> Emperor Malgus ~ Coalition Strike Team >>

1.ActIII Barsen'thor > First Son > > Children of the Emperor >/~ Act II Barsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

2.ActIIIDarth Nox >> Darth Thanaton >>> Teneb Kel ~\< Exal Kressh >> Children of the Emperor > ActIIBarsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ Draining 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

3.ActIII Wrath > Sel-Makor >> 'False Voice' Baras > Darth Ekkage > Darth Vengean > Master Wyellett > Xerender > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Ven Zallow ~ Darth Malgus > Aryn Leneer > Hope!Malgus > Knight Satele Shan > Lord Malgus ~ Kao Cen Darach > ToC!Darth Baras > Pre-Sel Makor amp!Baras > Lord Fulminiss ~ breaking the minds of four elite Sith Lords, strong enough to be hand-selected by the Emperor for his death cult.

4.Act III Slayer > (Weakened) Vitiate > Spirit!Vitiate ~ Dark Temple destruction > Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Leeha Narezz, Act II Slayer > Act II Slayer ~ Lord Scourge > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Leeha Narezz ~ all three are the most powerful Jedi and best warriors, in the Jedi Order.

The Outlander stomps.

LadyKulvax wrote:Morrhage was a galactic threat too. I don't even get what you're arguing at this point. Vivicar's plague had spread galaxy-wide at the point the Barsen'thor killed him, he just hadn't fully infected every Jedi he'd come in contact with.

Vivicar was casually dominating hundreds of Jedi Masters such as Yuon Par who Nomi Sunrider considered far too powerful to be telepathically influenced.

The Poof wank was debunked to be a mere chain reaction, not genuinely planetary destruction.

Is Tott even equal to a guy who can dominate 100s of Masters? Considering you use a quote that wanks the Masters above others, it seems doubtful. But alright, still this doesn't directly impact Tott so we'll let it slide, except...

LadyKulvax wrote:This is an all-primes list.

Tier 8:
Yoda
Vaylin
Revan
Exar Kun
Kyp Durron
The Outlander
Darth Nihilus

Tier 7:
Darth Malak
Count Dooku
Mace Windu
Darth Traya
Meetra Surik
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Darth Plagueis
Darth Maul
Emperor Krayt
Darth Malgus
Darth Tenebrous
Darth Caedus
Darth Nyriss
Barsen'thor
Darth Nox
Empire's Wrath
Hero of Tython
Ood Bnar
Thon
Odan-urr
Ulic Qel-Droma
Vodo-Siosk Baas

Tier 6:
Darth Thanaton
Asajj Ventress
Darth Bane
Darth Zannah
Darth Cognus
Darth Sion
Tott Doneeta
Qui-Gon Jinn
Bastila Shan

Rough estimates. If you're in the same tier, you at least give anyone else in it a decent fight.

The new main chain used for the Outlander is scaling from Arcann holding off some of the barrage of a Valkorion-amped Outlander:

Which could damage ships and kill muggles:


(Skip to 21:49)

What seems to be the problem here is that you're conflating the power radiating off of him as the power being released from his hands. We can see that the cone of energy persists even without him shooting energy from his hands:



That's not a side effect from his hand blasts shooting everywhere. That's his body shooting that energy outwards.


His shooting lightning out his hands still directs the lightning where he wants it to go. It's not losing energy when released from his hands. It still operates as normal lightning:




It's just so much energy in that body that it's also coming out of him, but we see he has control of the lightning to a degree where he can simply charge up a Kamehameha to overwhelm Arcann. And it's still Valk familiar with how to shoot lightning out of a body. It was just too much energy for Outlander to contain.

Even if you argue if was spraying everywhere from his hands, then the bulk of his energy is still focused on the smaller tight beams directed at Arcann. It would just be leaking energy in a cone as well... energy Arcann wasn't worried about.

And Arcann was still about as point-blank as he could be to this even with the nitpicking in play.



Just because you think it splayed out that doesn't mean it lost all its potency. Hell if anything that would just speak to how much uncontrollable power was released if he couldn't direct his beams in one shot and when they did go in one spot...

But the reason I didn't go too in-depth here is that one of our finer members has already explained it much better than I am able to.
Featuring @xolthol

xolthol:

I question why exactly it'd compare favorably in any way to Exar Kun. Tott Doneeta quelled, not just tanked, a heat storm with his power:



Heat storms are super-sized hurricanes:



That can incinerate people nigh-instantly:



Yet Tott Doneeta isn't on par with most Jedi Masters in his era, such as Thon and especially not Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr:

Well, a couple of things here.

First off, it's important to note "up to" which means not every storm is going to be the same size or power. You compare them to a hurricane so I'm sure you understand hurricanes vary drastically in power.




Why exactly is this important? Well because the picture you used of Heat Storms was all an illusion:





An illusion may, for instance, want to go with the absolute maximum storm on record to drive a little more fear of God into the users. That makes sense right? You don't script people's death to just be an average storm.

Is that convincing? Probably not. However, simply looked at the art of the Tott storm we can see that it does not in any way look as impressive as the illusion Heat Storm:




And we can explain that by simply understanding that it's possibly a lesser storm with likely less heat and power. The variable nature makes this very palatable.



But then we still have the issue of the feats itself. First off, the Encyclopedia contradicts itself:



Then we look at the actual feat:





Which doesn't exactly make it clear what happens. It either fights back and overloads, or it runs him over. In either case, he was not matching the entirety of the power. For someone arguing against the Arcann example up above you should understand this. He simply had enough power to make it buckle, and that set off the chain of events that led to the storm fighting back and knocking him out. What it seemed to me like he did was simply disrupt a portion of it that made it unstable and blow up as a result. Good feat sure, but not something that makes him interchangeable with a heat storm. He doesn't become heat storm level just because he caused it to blow up, or worse, just get run over.

What example do we want to use here... got it. Think of EC pointing out a flaw in your argument and collapsing the whole thing - a true nightmare if ever such a thing existed. He didn't out debate you, he didn't outwork you, he simply caught you at the weak area and capsized your entire argument. Now you may lash out and attack him, but that argument is truly dead now. What Tott did was cause a little buckle that ended with the storm kamikaze'ing both of them at best. It's like when Decaf used to flick his family pitbull's balls and then the pitbull turned around and bit him so his parents euthanized it. Yes, he managed to affect it, but he didn't become Pitbull level. Just like Tott is not suddenly Heat Storm level for causing a malfunction.


And we saw someone fighting back against the lightning storm Valklander unleashed anyway. It didn't cause a chain reaction or weaken it, it just made them turtle. Tott did this with concentration when he wasn't the target. Imagine him heads up trying to shield from Valklander focused lightning? What is Tott going to do if put in that same situation? Buckle the lightning storm capable of murdering people through ships and crashing ships? We don't know the level of power required for Tott's feat, but we do know the level of power required for Arcann's feat is a ways beyond pretty much any Master. Of which you said Tott doesn't compare, yet have made favorable comparisons to Tott's companions to lower people in TOR scaling chains. Hell, you wanked Nomi - who became the Grand Master - in comparison to Vivicarian feats. Tott is completely lost, and the feat isn't even that great anyway. It's actually much more dubious than any doubt you cast on Arcann.

Vodo was one-shotted by the spirit of Freedon Nadd from across space:



Actually, Nadd outright blocked Vodo's powers beforehand:

You have an odd perception of one-shotting, or perhaps I should say Ood perception since you argue Kun matched Ood in the same post when he ran away after one shot. You have Nadd forcing a wave of hatred towards Vodo who is stretching his mind light-years to that location to protect Kun, not fight Nadd. It looks good sure, but it's not an actual fight. He's surprising him with an unexpected wave of hatred when Vodo wasn't trying to defend himself... not even in that mindset actually; explicitly trying to save Kun. In both instances, Vodo was coming to Nadd's power and Nadd was reacting. It wasn't Nadd stretching his power, but rather Vodo over lightyears.

To make sense of this, imagine Kun trying to TP someone from light-years away. Now imagine Kun trying to TP someone in his direct line of sight. I would think without the extra exertion to stretch your mind light-years that the TP within a direct line of sight would be more potent. That makes sense right? Now imagine someone is stretching their presence those light-years to visit a huge Darkside nexus, and Nadd feels him in the area. He doesn't have to stretch his powers across light-years because Vodo has already done that for him and brought him a tangible target. He just has to reach out to the presence Vodo made available.

I'm not saying this is quantifiable by any degree of course, but it's an extra pair of caveats that you seemed to gloss over. If the two were even equals in power, then the advantage would go to Nadd in these instances every time.



That being said, Vodo being weaker than Nadd (and pre-Nadd Kun) isn't very congruent with mega growth either considering he had an extended battle with Kun:

Chronicles of The Old Republic wrote:Master Vodo stepped onto the Senate floor, and challenged his wayward apprentice. The battle progressed and Vodo gradually weakened, vowed to defeat Kun, but was immediately slain. Kun and Ulic walked out of the Senate, and returned to Yavin 4.

Spoiler:

He didn't win no, but he did alright considering he should have been one shotted with all the unquantified growth you're parading around.
So he's kind of not the guy to bring up sandwiched between Nadd and mega growth to prove your point imo. Keep in mind this is after all your growth in the next section. Even odder is that you think Vodo > Ulic, which would make your scaling:

The Kun who was exactly equal to Ulic >>>> Nadd > Vodo > Ulic

It's undermining huge growth when you do stuff like this. Is Exar Kun combatively retarded? And if so, why should I vote for him in this thread? He's so powerful he is given fights by people he scales crazily over? Like he came there to kill Ulic, yet could only stalemate, quotes exist saying they would have killed each other for that matter.



Trying to conceptualize power growth with his feats is near impossible, and all it does is undercut the growth. So in your entire next section, all he can do with all this power growth is stuff he should have been capable of before. Where does that leave us for quantifiable growth? Whereas in TOR we see this growth happen. It's essentially just Dragon Ball with everyone leapfrogging the next baddy. Kun never has to overcome anything. He starts at the top and everything he does only seems to diminish any growth from that point on.

So when you say Kun grew in power it's almost meaningless if his feats aren't actualized instances of mega growth, but we'll get to that.

Exar Kun surpasses Nadd's spirit in power outright:

Vehicle and Starships Collection wrote:During the Great Sith War, a Jedi called Exar Kun was turned to the dark side of the Force by the spirit of Freedon Nadd. Nadd's teachings were too thorough, though, and Kun became so powerful that he destroyed Nadd's spirit forever.

Vodo-Siosk Baas, Tales of the Jedi Audio Drama wrote:"I sense a disturbance in the Force. As if one great power[Nadd] has fallen, and another[Kun] has risen in its place."

Kun absorbs all of Nadd's knowledge which makes him super powerful:

Exar Kun, Galactic Files wrote:This leads him to the tomb of a long-deceased Dark Lord named Freedon Nadd, a spirit who is destroyed by Kun after all of his magical knowledge is absorbed. Now super-powerful,

Then immediately rises further in power:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Exar Kun's power is in the ascendance.

He masters Sith alchemy which makes him more powerful in the process:

New Essential Chronology wrote:An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood.

And has become yet more powerful right after:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Meanwhile on Yavin 4, a more powerful EXAR KUN rests in his meditation chamber

Kun then has his clash with Ulic, resulting in the appearance of Marka Ragnos who bestows them with his power which alone is stated to be more power than Aleema Keto's magic ever gave her:



Exar Kun then spends several years gaining 'tremendous' power:

As I said, it's just a whole lot of nothing. Of course, he grows but there's no definition to it. There's nothing there that would allow him to completely erase a loss on his part for instance. Had Ulic not been stripped of his power at the end of the War yet he had growth quotes similar to that, would it be believable that he grew past Kun with no explicit comparison? Look at who you're trying to fight for example; Outlander. Someone who just randomly jumps in power above the guy who beat him every couple steps. That is tremendous growth, and that is constant. Kun doesn't have apparent examples like that, and when he experiences all this growth he still does about as well as he may have done previously. Unfortunately, you need some failure to bring growth to light and Kun suffers in that aspect ironically.

Why is growing from Nadd level impressive in comparison?

I don't know what his growth means. Can you tell me? He scales above Kun who scales above Kun who scales above Kun who scales above Nadd. A very hard-hitting example to hammer in growth. That could be anywhere from 1 percent to 100 percent power increase, and any percentage starting from Nadd would seem tremendous in the context of "power." A one percent increase of Nadd's full potency might be a 10-20 percent increase for an average Jedi, and that's huge. That still doesn't mean he is multiplying in power, just growing unquantifiably stronger. He grows to what and what does this combat? Where was the chink in his armor that this is shoring up exactly? I hate to be pedantic on stated growth, but it doesn't exactly lead to anything in the way you're using it, besides wanting to put him above Ood.

That being said, most of those quotes just sort of fold into another as they're happening at the same time. This makes him grow more power but also this does when he's doing this, yes. Naturally, he should be more powerful after all his growth, that's not in question.
And that Chronicles quote should be in full context because it will come up later:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Exar Kun proclaims himself the new Dark Lord of the Sith, enslaves the Massassi into building structures focused in dark force energy, and locates the buried battleship of Naga Sadow. Exar Kun's power is in the ascendance.

Also "Vehicle and Starships Collection" isn't really a source. They're issues with numbers attached to them. Not saying you faked a quote, but this is how Greybros snuck a Kenobi quote in there and let it ride.

Obtaining the Dark Holocron which makes him even more powerful:

Tales of the Jedi wrote:Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away from something that will make him even stronger.

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology wrote:The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years.

It's actually believed that this Holocron was responsible for most of Kun's rise to power:

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Exar Kun might not have risen to power so quickly had Odan-Urr destroyed the Sith Holocron when he’d had the chance.

He had the Dark Holocron for one trip from Ossus to Yavin and then punched It and broke it to possess the Jedi he brought back. Unless you're saying he got most of his power from the spirits escaping? But that would just lead him to no more than what the Jedi acquired. Knowledge sure, but not the same as extensively studying the Holocron in private for months.

Spoiler:

And yes, it being directly responsible for turning multiple Jedi instantly over to your cause would explain his rise in power. The whole reason the war was viewed so bad is because Jedi and lovers were turning on each other. Kun turning Jedi so they could murder their masters and gather more troops is a huge rise to power. I don't understand how you can read that quote and think of raw power as opposed to him cornering a niche and that expediting his rise to power. It was the beginning of turning Jedi, of course it was huge.

Exar Kun on a light-side nexus is matched in power by an Ood Bnar drawing on the planet's power:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith #6 wrote:Ood resists Kun's attempts to steal the lightsabers by undergoing a final metamorphosis, plunging roots into the ground and driving Kun back with a blast of power drawn from the depths of Ossus.

Yet Exar Kun ransacked the Chamber of Antiquities of the Great Library on Ossus, containing 'precious artifacts' that held more knowledge than Kun could ever use:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Vol.2 wrote:Looking at all the precious artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use.

This results in Exar becoming far more powerful than any Jedi in the Great Sith War timeline, including Ood and thus himself as of Ossus:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.

And Kun being unrivalled:

I, Jedi wrote:I let Streen fill Kun with our resolve to unite and defeat him, but Kun's contempt for us came rolling back along the line like an echo. He had faced fleets of ships and all the known Jedi. He had slain his own master. His power was unrivaled.

Simply put, Exar Kun is magnitudes of power beyond quelling a more deadly storm than Arcann withstood some of temporarily.

He didn't match Ood, that's a lie. In fact there's quotes explicitly stating he defeated Kun. Your quote even says he was driving Kun back with a blast of power.



In fact, we can even look at the fight and see Ood just tossing him like a ragdoll:

Spoiler:

And again, he only gathered those artifacts and had them for a trip from Ossus to Yavin. You're telling me he grew in power from reading as much as he could from one hyperspace trip when he couldn't read it all in a lifetime? There's no stated growth for him in that timeframe just that he was stronger than every Jedi, and that's true without any growth.

The likelyhood it includes a momentrary amp for Ood - who couldn't rival Kun anymore due to being rooted to Ossus - is as likely as the quote talking about Kun's momentary amp in his spirit form. Even more likely they were talking about the amp since they directly reference his defeat. So you can either argue Amped Kun > Amped Ood and all the Jedi, and wind up with nothing useful for Kun, or you can argue the quote is putting those things aside and only talking about the base characters. Which really, you have a quote saying "Far more powerful" and that would suffice for most people.

But what you're expecting people to believe is that Kun grew far more powerful than his last actual base feat. Ood ~ Kun << Yavin Kun. Which kind of brings into question how powerful Kun was if he only becomes far more powerful than any Jedi after a short trip to Yavin? He randomly picked all the right books that massively boosted his power in a couple hours? And even without the spirit ritual, you're expecting people to divorce it from the context of his defeat - you know where he was on a massive nexus with focusing pyramids to funnel even more power to everything he does?



It doesn't work. It's not a viable explanation to exclude every amp but Kun's. I don't think it's good faith to include Kun's in those quotes, but it's a lot more viable of an alternative than assuming the guy that was believed dead at the time due to supernovas is included in the quote, and it specifically includes the amp he had for an extremely short time, but not Kun's many amps.

But I see I didn't explain why Kun only had a couple hours. My mistake.  

So the shootingnova will hit Ossus in a couple hours, and also explains that Ood can't participate in the attack on Yavin:




By the time the nova hits Ossus - a couple hours - all the Jedi are already assembled and on their way to Yavin:




So essentially you're arguing that Kun grew far more powerful than Ossus!Ood with a Mötley Crüe of random stuff he couldn't read in a lifetime within a couple hours?


It's just not feasible. You've already tried to wank all these great sources that took Kun a while to grow from - sources with actual wank and reason - and then you just throw out a hodgepodge of shit and go "Well he read a couple and just grew tremendously" based on well... not much. He just ctrl+Fs through all the scrolls and scriptures and gains super powers on the flight when he didn't know they'd follow him to Yavin and thus he was in no rush to read everything immediately? Nah.



Not to mention per this explanation, you're undermining the rest of Kun's career and allowing his spirit form from JA the chance to be closer or equal to every Kun incarnation except his last 3-4 pages of life. Yes Kun would be more powerful even following your logic, but it wouldn't preclude the rest of his showings including "matching" Ood. He's not at his full power, but he could be very close. In fact your whole thing of growing power just allows Spirit Kun to be within shooting distance of any Kun on panel as you desperately try and divorce Kun's power panel to panel from his own power. Ignoring Kyp who you have as a tier 8 helping Kun.



Even if we fall perfectly in-line with your thoughts on Kun scaling, you have created complete pandemonium of the scaling with only false promises that "Trust me bro, he's stronger than this... please"

The way you wank Kun is just reaching a little too far for my tastes. There's certainly wank, but not to be better than everyone by leaps and bounds or to act like he fodders his earlier showings when his feats kind of go against that.

And yet, it gets better, spirit Kun after expending great amounts of energy to summon the Suncrusher and defeat Luke Skywalker, channels a full-blown cyclone through Streen which was confirmed to be done through Kun's power:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends.

I, Jedi wrote:My thinking was that Kun, still taxed from his having funneled enough power through Streen to create that cyclone

A cyclone so powerful it could launch people thousands of feet into the air, if not crush them against stone and freeze the inside of a Temple. That's just spirit Kun after already expending a metric ton of his energy.

So not only does Kun utterly dwarf Tott achieving a more impressive feat in a far more extensive manner than the Outlander does over Arcann, but he can summon his own cyclone in a magnitudes weaker state than his prime.

Which you just posted Kirana Ti walking through - Kirana Ti who was far below Gantoris who was far below arrival Kyp. Essentially Padawan at best level. How do you scale something like this up to Malgus? He makes a cyclone that can blow Malgus' cape around? It's a completely useless application of power. Neat sure, but all it's doing is lifting coma!Luke and a weak Leia slowly into the air. How are you going to accurately scale a weak attack like this no matter how weakened Kun might have been?

Not only that, but it's not lifting them just thousands of feet in this possibility from ground level. It's lifting them from a very high point already and then dropping them from there. Considering the Temple dwarfs 140-170 meter trees, it's not exactly that far off just dropping them from the top of the Temple. It's also a constant application of power to get them to this height anyway. It's not just a Force Push launching them this height like SAESEE TIIN throwings hundreds of pounds of metal 4 kilometers. It requires constant exertion and it can be resisted by Padawan tier powers. There's no way to use this. Esoteric abilities are fine, but the examples you've used are almost entirely useless. Tott Storm buckles and cyclones useless against Padawans? Why.

The fact that you started your post off actually posting two high level Force users against each other in favor of Outlander is beyond me too. Like I wouldn't post Kun's best feats and then post Outlander throwing humans around I'll tell you that much.

So after much discussion with myself, I change my vote to Outlander!

Also Malak > Kun means he's > TOTT too right?

Exar Kun gets my vote.

Im still curious how we are getting Outlander >> HoT >> Malak. Nobody has ever discussed that, so I dont know why all the Malak scaling is even relevant in this thread? 

I've yet to see any actual reliable scaling that will show that

[1]You don't seem to have understood a word I've said. The source already defines Malak's own actual power for us. He's getting more power from an external source, that external source is far more powerful than Exar Kun. The way I've come to see the Star Forge is that it's essentially Nihilus but far worse. It is indeed sentient, it can influence those who draw on it until it gets to a climactic absorption of all Force energy on a galaxy-wide scale, which I imagine comes as it requires it. An ever-increasing demand for negative energy. Whilst Malak possesses the Star Forge and is amplified by it, he doesn't actually have all of the Star Forge's power. That is obvious. I once believed that like Vitiate, Exar Kun was an even bigger threat than the Star Forge. But it's obvious now that neither of them are as powerful.

Why? Because it is made absolutely clear that the Star Forge would eventually feed on and literally end the Force itself; with further implication that not even Revan can prevent this with his will:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force."

That's its potential, something a far more powerful (at least) incarnation of Vitiate than the one we all have over Malak, could never hope to achieve without a mega ritual to do so.

All of the above is compounded by the statement from Bastila Shan that Revan can 'destroy' Malak on the Star Forge but still thinks that no one can stand against the power of the Star Forge itself, including Malak:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"But you Revan - the power of the dark side is yours to command! You can use it to destroy Malak! With my help you could rule over the entire galaxy!"

"No one can stand against the power of the Star Forge!"

And no, your attempt to appeal to the cybernetics, is irrelevant. Cybernetics are providing an amp, but that amp comes from external power. There's no way around that.

[2]It having the involvement of Leland Chee doesn't render it any less fallible at all. It's a C-canon statement vetted by LFL. Chee doesn't have some magic infallibility touch. It must stand up to scrutiny as much as anything else.

[3]The fun thing about this is that the big dog ancients are consistently top tier throughout all Star Wars mythos works. And unfortunately for you Nihilus' planet-killing is part of his technique which is literally taught to him by Kreia, who explains that the ancient Sith can all achieve this themselves. So no, you can't use my logic against me when it comes to what he can do in terms of feats. Because everything he does beyond the planet drain, is demonstratably within the scope of the ancients. And Exar Kun's whole mission statement is to bring the Sith Empire back as the sole superpower, not destroy all planets. They literally try to conquer Coruscant and win the galaxy.

Meetra's opinion isn't nearly the same as Kreia's statements and you know it. Kreia's statements aren't just confirmed to be accurate as is the generic confirmation. Avellone has outright called her his in-universe mouthpiece and gives us an in-universe reason as to why she's right. She has the holocrons of Telos IV to provide her with a frame of reference.

[4]First of all, calling out cut-content when we have Cory Herndon himself discrediting your quote on the basis of it no longer existing in its original form is an incredibly slippy slope for you to try and stand on.

Kreia agreeing with the statement isn't limited, the whole point of Nadd being worse than Revan and Malak is an explanation of the tomb and its power, and the fact the entire quest is stopping Nadd's return and making sure the Sith don't get his power. The greater context makes it blatant that they're hyping up Freedon Nadd:

Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight.

"The Sith Master says we'll have reinforcements soon, when I ask for details he says it's a 'surprise'. I hate the ones with a sense of humor."



Freedon Nadd's power is literally the entire backbone of the dark-sider royals that dominated Onderon for centuries and caused the system to be corrupted. His power is all anyone ever heard about in TOTJ and the Naddist revolt. Per The Old Republic's in-universe galactic histories, he's still infamous for that 300 years later.

Revan is famous (or infamous) for:
1.Killing Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat and destroying Malachor V.
2.Being the literal prodigal knight among the Jedi even moreso than Kavar was who was famed for his combat prowess.
3.Would be even more feared than Meetra was among the Mandalorians for her prowess on the battlefield.
4.Is infamous for killing Yusanis in single-combat.
5.Is famous for killing Malak and ending the Sith Empire.

I'm sure I could keep going, Revan's 'best feats' are literally the most well-known stories amongst the Mandalorians who have countless frames of reference for fighting the Jedi in combat. And the accuracy of the Mandalorian's claim is supported by and confirmed through Kreia.

As far as only having a frame of reference for Mandalorian Wars Revan goes. She quite literally could see his future and was aware of his potential. That's the context behind your heart of the Force quote, she knows.

As far as Kreia speaking to Revan's power, most of that is in comparison to her later apprentices and some of it isn't even strictly in reference to power in the first place. She has a bias for Revan because he proved her teachings right. This doesn't help you in any case. She deems Nihilus as being near too powerful to be stopped at all. Yet fears that he may only rival some of the ancient Sith. I don't think Kreia's bias towards Revan means as much as you're suggesting.

But worse yet is that you appear to suggest that Kreia's later statement somehow contradicts the quote. On the contrary, if Kreia already agrees (and if she didn't she would say so because she calls everyone out all the time when they say something wrong, including Canderous in the same questline.) and then says she underestimated him, then that makes it even better. Not only does she already agree, but the deeper into the temple she goes the more she agrees. Thanks for that, things just got better.

Again, the Mandalorian has every reason to be considering what Revan and Malak were most famous for. Victories in war and combat. Leaving entire populations to get destroyed. Bombing worlds. Torturing Jedi. Murdering people first-hand and en masse. Freedon Nadd is famous for conquering the Onderon system, killing more Jedi than any Sith in history, corrupting the Onderon system and empowering all his descendants after death.

But nearly all of this is moot. Because we know for a fact, by actually reading, that the Mandalorian is talking about how dangerous the dark side taint of the tomb is, and explaining why. He's talking about the Force: 'This place is tainted.

[5]Absolutely nowhere? Did you actually read it?

The most infamous graduate, however, is that of Exar Kun, trained by Vodo-Siosk Baas himself. Exar Kun was a Jedi Apprentice that turned away from the light side to embrace the seductive power of ancient Sith magic.Forty years ago he began a war upon the Republic that had grave consequences, but through great effort and sacrifice on the part of the Jedi he was defeated. The legacy of his taint is slowly passing away in the wake of the Mandalorian Wars and the coming of a new Sith threat.

The quote is entirely about him, his power, defeating him specifically and his lasting taint slowly fading. But what's the greater context immediately preceding the statement that the Academy's most infamous graduate is Kun?

The most notable feature of Dantooine is the Jedi academy, originally founded by Jedi Master Vodo-Siosk Baas. For generations now it has served to train promising Jedi Padawans, with several dozen students in attendance at any given time.

It's talking about Jedi, from the Dantooine Academy. He's most infamous for the powers he gained through Sith magic. But I was really hoping you'd bite, to be honest. Because there's another quote:

Jedi Enclave Ruins Codex Entry wrote:Some of history's most powerful Force-users trained in the halls of the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. Only students with great potential were admitted, and while the rigorous training produced exceptional Jedi, the fall of several notable students to the dark side cast a pall on the institution's legacy. Exar Kun, Darth Revan, and Darth Malak all trained at the enclave on Dantooine.

So an academy dedicated to the Jedi with the greatest potential and is the source of some of the most powerful Force-users(guess who) has a 'pall' (infamy) cast on its legacy because of Exar Kun, Malak and Revan. Guess who is stated to be the most infamous graduate? The quote couldn't be more obviously talking about his power.

Exar Kun isn't bound by this quote, and Malak couldn't dream of having power rivalling the likes of Luke Skywalker.

Vote Exar Kun.

Oh yay, two massive walls of text directed at me, that's great. As if I have the time to be battling both of you at once, which I'm sure was precisely the idea. I'll reply to you Bran eventually. I'm not in this for your fifth time at jumping on me out of nowhere with passive aggressive arguments and attempts to call me out on a double-standard. If you're apparently so much more of a Kun savant, you might try giving it a go instead of flooding me with another massive response right after Ant.

@Quorian Debatist Great post

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Im still curious how we are getting Outlander >> HoT >> Malak. Nobody has ever discussed that, so I dont know why all the Malak scaling is even relevant in this thread? 

I've yet to see any actual reliable scaling that will show that

Which part? I can happily explain the Outlander >> HoT scaling, and I can give a good shot at the HoT >> Malak scaling if you'd like.

@Decaf_Beverages

Im still curious how we are getting Outlander >> HoT >> Malak.

For starters, we can draw a direct comparison between the Act 3 Voice and Novel Vitiate:

-Act 3 Vitiate: Scourge states that the HoT shouldn't bring him along to confront Vitiate at the end of the Jedi Knight storyline, because he can't resist the Emperor's direct influence, and thus would not be able to assist the Hero in defeating Vitiate - his presence would only make things harder.

Vs

-Novel Vitiate: Revan in the novel believes that alone he's unable to defeat Vitiate, but with the help of Meetra and Scourge (a far weaker iteration than the one we see in SWTOR) he has a real chance of victory - indicating that Scourge's presence would help Revan in the battle.

This comparison clearly shows the Act 3 Voice as the stronger of the two iterations of Vitiate - Scourge is useless in a fight against the Act 3 Voice, whereas a far weaker iteration of him can actually assist Revan Reborn against Novel Vitiate. In terms of how the Hero and Revan performed against these iterations respectively, the HoT overpowered the Act 3 Voice, whereas RR was overpowered by Vitiate pretty thoroughly.

Just to add to the above: Revan knew he couldn't resist Vitiate's TP and resorts to a physical attack to stop him from doing so:

The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.

Regarding his growth, a more powerful version of the HoT than the one that overpowered Vitiate got his ass kicked by Arcann in KOTFE Chapter 8, yet grew powerful enough to defeat Arcann by KOTFE Chapter 16. After beating Arcann, however, he got slapped by Chained Vaylin in KOTET Chapter 3, who then grew far more powerful upon becoming Unchained in KOTET Chapter 7. The Outlander then increased in power enough across KOTET to defeat this far more powerful version of Vaylin twice over - once in KOTET Chapter 8, and again in KOTET Chapter 9.

Given the Malak quote just got eviscerated, probably not relevant anymore.

Even from a simpler point of view: the Outlander is simply a better duelist than Exar Kun, with more experience to boot. It's conceivable he'd just blitz Deceived Malgus within seconds.

NotAA3 wrote:@Decaf_Beverages

Im still curious how we are getting Outlander >> HoT >> Malak.

For starters, we can draw a direct comparison between the Act 3 Voice and Novel Vitiate:

-Act 3 Vitiate: Scourge states that the HoT shouldn't bring him along to confront Vitiate at the end of the Jedi Knight storyline, because he can't resist the Emperor's direct influence, and thus would not be able to assist the Hero in defeating Vitiate - his presence would only make things harder.

Vs

-Novel Vitiate: Revan in the novel believes that alone he's unable to defeat Vitiate, but with the help of Meetra and Scourge (a far weaker iteration than the one we see in SWTOR) he has a real chance of victory - indicating that Scourge's presence would help Revan in the battle.

This comparison clearly shows the Act 3 Voice as the stronger of the two iterations of Vitiate - Scourge is useless in a fight against the Act 3 Voice, whereas a far weaker iteration of him can actually assist Revan Reborn against Novel Vitiate. In terms of how the Hero and Revan performed against these iterations respectively, the HoT overpowered the Act 3 Voice, whereas RR was overpowered by Vitiate pretty thoroughly.

I really hope this isn't all thats backing up the scaling in this scenario. Vitiate was INFAMOUS for his corrupting influence and Scourge had been around Vitiate for hundreds of years. 

His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi’s connection to the light side

Jedi Master Tol Braga's strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader's oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. 

Furthermore, Vitiate virtually re-made Scourge with his own power

Feel your mortality as it is stripped away.”
Scourge screamed as invisible claws tore at his insides, seemingly shredding his vital organs.
The heat in his chest had spread to the rest of his body; it felt as if his blood were made of fire. The agony became unbearable, and he shrieked and collapsed to the floor.
“The ritual cannot be undone,” the Emperor said as Scourge writhed and wept at his feet.
Through his torment, Scourge realized with dawning horror what the Emperor was saying. The ritual was over, but the searing heat and the rending of his insides continued unabated.
Focusing his will, he managed to still the convulsions racking his body. He forced himself to his knees, though every movement seemed to amplify the pain. Trembling, he rose to his feet and addressed the Emperor.

Why the hell would one of the Emperor's own playthings be able to resist his direct corrupting influence when he had been virtually remade by it, and not only that, had been around it for years upon years

I have some issues with the post from Quarian Debatist, and while I won't send some amazing counter I'd still like to see you respond to them, so everyone can make proper judgements with proper facts:

You start your post with two LadyKulvax quotes, one about Outlander scaling chains and one about a tier list, but they just seem odd to use for a number of reasons:

Outlander scaling chains: 
-Context. This chain was to show why Outlander beats Savage and Maul, neither of which have even been mentioned for this tournament. So while the chains are too much for that duo, they can easily be considered "lesser" for someone in the running for #12 place. 

-Age. The scaling chains were written over a year ago, and like most arguments and beliefs could likely be outdated. 

Tier list: 
- Again age. Its half a year old and likely to be outdated. 

Digging out old statements made by community users seem irrelevant to current debates, and just makes it look like you lack actual arguments to make. 

Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:Is Tott even equal to a guy who can dominate 100s of Masters? 

Maybe, maybe not, but Tott is massively bellow Kun anyways. And you made no attempt of showing otherwise. 

Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:Hell, you wanked Nomi - who became the Grand Master - in comparison to Vivicarian feats. 

Again, thats from a year-old post. Maybe refer to his relevant posts instead? 

Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:But the reason I didn't go too in-depth here is that one of our finer members has already explained it much better than I am able to.
Featuring @xolthol

You use the argument of Xolthol to show why the Outlander deserves spot #12. Yet she also made arguments for why Vaylin >>> Outlander, so should we actually restart this round and vote for Vaylin instead? 

Further you never actually debunked LadyKulvax's point. He only claimed that Arcann didn't meet the full power of the lightning. Claiming that LadyKulvax thinks "it lost all its potency" exaggerates his stance in what I assume is a bad attempt to ridicule his statements, or to try and make people extra critical of the rest of Ladykulvax's posts. 

 Xolthol explained why the energy that Arcann faced was stronger than the one that destroyed the ships. Yet Xolthol's post still admits that Arcann doesn't face all of it. You admit to the same. That is LadyKulvax's point, and in my opinion you just showed why its true. 

Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:He didn't win no, but he did alright considering he should have been one shotted with all the unquantified growth you're parading around.

Decaf already explained how Kun performed one of the greatest TP feats in all of SW while dueling Vodo. And still it was a pretty one-sided fight for Kun, Vodo never was close to an advantage. 

There are some other parts I'm curious about but I'm kind of busy so this is it for now. Looking forward for your respone

Changing my vote to Kun. 

If tournament is supposed to be an objective ranking based on hollistics Kun is hyped up to be close to Sidious

If based on IU showings he's plain better

If based on my subjective opinion Outlander MAY have more power and be more skilled, but Kun still wins by esoteric abilities and mastery

If based on which character I like more it would actually be Outlander, but i doubt its what we want the poll to be about

Can we stop pretending like the Vodo fight was anything other than Kun fucking around? The second he pulls out his saberstaff, Vodo gets annihilated within a few panels. Kun was trying to seduce Vodo to the dark side which was very explicit on the panel. When he realized he couldn't, he just killed him

Furthermore, there seems to be a preponderance of evidence that Kun could have just one-shotted him outright with force abilities had he chosen that avenue, given that a vastly inferior version managed to get what was quite likely a Force Wound one-shot against Odan-Urr, with Vodo and Urr being considered the "Mace and Yoda of their era" respectively by out of universe sourcebooks. 

Kun was showboating in the senate, as per his usual style.