Re: Darth Vader vs Asajj Ventress (Force only)

March 28th 2020, 7:34 am

Vader isn’t downplayed

March 28th 2020, 7:44 am

People like downplaying Legends Vader because of that one time George Lucas said that he was an old man in a robot suit.

March 28th 2020, 7:51 am

Seturna wrote:Vader isn’t downplayed

What's with the sub TPM Kenobi stuff that I saw u say? Or was that joking?

March 28th 2020, 8:41 am

It’s a meme lol. It’s not lowballing yo put a character lower than what you believe they should be at.

March 28th 2020, 8:49 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

IG wrote:It’s a meme lol. It’s not lowballing yo put a character lower than what you believe they should be at.

So is it also a meme when you keep saying Vader loses in every damn thread?

March 28th 2020, 9:53 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

I'll bite.

The main thing dragging Vader down appears to be quotes related to his standing next to his fully-formed self and his diminished saber skill in the suit. I'm assuming neither of these form the basis for Ventress' arguments, seeing as she never held a candle to Anakin in raw power anyway, and this thread has nothing to do with lightsaber combat.

From there, at best, Vader has accolades outright stating he's more powerful than Anakin/suitless Vader, but at least, he's more masterful than his old self, massively so. Additionally, some of his lower-end power feats blow Ventress' best out of the water.

So, I'm curious to hear if there is a new argument from the Ventress camp that could reasonably change my mind, because if I had to bet, I'd be putting all of my money on Vader destroying her pretty easily.

March 28th 2020, 10:47 am

Seturna wrote:Vader isn’t downplayed

yes it is lol for some reason the only versions that get wank are the pre suit one and canon vader boi

EU version is massively underrated on this forum like for no real reason.

March 28th 2020, 10:48 am

Latham2000 wrote:People like downplaying Legends Vader because of that one time George Lucas said that he was an old man in a robot suit.

tbh lucas is a jack on power levels

March 28th 2020, 10:50 am

IG wrote:It’s a meme lol. It’s not lowballing yo put a character lower than what you believe they should be at.

Mate, you say Vader loses in virtually every thread without any evidence, support or reasoning.

March 28th 2020, 10:50 am

BoD wrote:

IG wrote:It’s a meme lol. It’s not lowballing yo put a character lower than what you believe they should be at.

Mate, you say Vader loses in virtually every thread without any evidence, support or reasoning.

March 28th 2020, 11:21 am

When it comes to Vader, the problem is that those arguing for him have failed to address the Lucas quotes in a satisfying way. Shifting the attention to feats won’t help, the core of the problem would still remain as this forum recognizes G-canon as the highest authority, which takes precedence over everything else (not to mention that some authors do support Lucas’ view). So unless some way to get around them or reduce the “damage” is found, they stand.

March 28th 2020, 11:31 am

MasterCilghal wrote:Shifting the attention to feats won’t help, the core of the problem would still remain as this forum recognizes G-canon as the highest authority,

And that’s what’s causing the divide. Some ignore Lucas, others follow his every word. Besides, I’m not even entirely sure that Lucas himself holds the same opinion of Vader as he did 20 years ago, as several post 2005 sources, such as the Coruscant nights series, the purge comics, DLTRODV, the Force unleashed etc portray him pretty beastly. Alternatively, you have mega low showings, most of which predate 2005. All in all, it would appear that Lucas shifted his vision for Vader’s power, much in the same way he did with Grievous.

As long as Vader’s still beating Starkiller everything can be all good

March 28th 2020, 11:35 am

I have Vader <= TPM maul, which isn’t bad at all @BoD. Resurrection supports my stance too. It’s not lowball to have him there, Lucas himself goes ahead and says “we haven’t seen anything”, in regards to combat in the OT. He outright declares ROTJ Luke pales in comparison to PT combatants. I take this a bit lightly and think of it as ROTJ Luke (and by extension, his equal in Vader) as equals of Jinn b/c I can’t see them losing to TPM Kenobi. @“The Witness” It’s a meme to say Vader < TPM Kenobi. It is not a meme to say he’s with TPM Maul. Ventress scales directly above tpm maul ala Mace, thus she’s more powerful than Vader.

March 28th 2020, 11:37 am

MasterCilghal wrote:When it comes to Vader, the problem is that those arguing for him have failed to address the Lucas quotes in a satisfying way. Shifting the attention to feats won’t help, the core of the problem would still remain as this forum recognizes G-canon as the highest authority, which takes precedence over everything else (not to mention that some authors do support Lucas’ view). So unless some way to get around them or reduce the “damage” is found, they stand.

That is a very valid criticism. At this point one can only argue about the contradictions Lucas made, his intents constantly changing while building the universe/creating characters etc. etc. However as you said, that doesn't provide a satisfying case and is a dead end. People need to find a brand new way to approach his character and debate it, other than it is reasonable many of the people here will perceive him to be a former shadow of himself.

March 28th 2020, 11:38 am

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:Vader isn’t downplayed

yes it is lol for some reason the only versions that get wank are the pre suit one and canon vader boi

EU version is massively underrated on this forum like for no real reason.

Well if he’s so underrated as you potray him to be.

Why don’t you create and blog and change the forum’s
opinion?

March 28th 2020, 11:39 am

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:Vader isn’t downplayed

yes it is lol for some reason the only versions that get wank are the pre suit one and canon vader boi

EU version is massively underrated on this forum like for no real reason.

Well if he’s so underrated as you potray him to be.

Why don’t you create and blog and change the forum’s
opinion?

pointless to do,also there is some threads in progress made by other debaters about vader right now

March 28th 2020, 11:40 am

@HellfireUnit The thing is that under our methodology, unless it’s outright retconned by Lucas, his statements stand. It’s reasonable to dismiss something from the seventies, maybe, but more recent stuff, around late 90s, early 2000s can’t just be thrown out of existence. Vader being lowballed to sub-TPM Kenobi is ridiculous, tbh, but so is wanking him to the level of the PT Titans, as many do on CV and other sites (which I’m sure you’ve witnessed firsthand).

March 28th 2020, 11:40 am

MasterCilghal wrote:When it comes to Vader, the problem is that those arguing for him have failed to address the Lucas quotes in a satisfying way. Shifting the attention to feats won’t help, the core of the problem would still remain as this forum recognizes G-canon as the highest authority, which takes precedence over everything else (not to mention that some authors do support Lucas’ view). So unless some way to get around them or reduce the “damage” is found, they stand.

If this should be the case, than Legends Grievous doesn't exist, and therefore we should only judge Grievous by his cowardly incarnation (which is Lucas's version) as seen in ROTS and TCW. But no one here does. When people debate Grievous, they mainly bring up all his legends hype. Why shouldn't we do the same for Vader?

March 28th 2020, 11:42 am

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:Vader isn’t downplayed

yes it is lol for some reason the only versions that get wank are the pre suit one and canon vader boi

EU version is massively underrated on this forum like for no real reason.

Well if he’s so underrated as you potray him to be.

Why don’t you create and blog and change the forum’s
opinion?

pointless to do since many people wont support that,also becuase there is some threads in progress made by various other debaters about vader right now

It’s not pointless if the blog would be good.

March 28th 2020, 11:44 am

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:Vader isn’t downplayed

yes it is lol for some reason the only versions that get wank are the pre suit one and canon vader boi

EU version is massively underrated on this forum like for no real reason.

Well if he’s so underrated as you potray him to be.

Why don’t you create and blog and change the forum’s
opinion?

pointless to do since many people wont support that,also becuase there is some threads in progress made by various other debaters about vader right now

It’s not pointless if the blog would be good.

maybe but nothing will guarantee that,after all the character have been on a limbo for many people on here

March 28th 2020, 11:45 am

IG wrote:@HellfireUnit The thing is that under our methodology, unless it’s outright retconned by Lucas, his statements stand. It’s reasonable to dismiss something from the seventies, maybe, but more recent stuff, around late 90s, early 2000s can’t just be thrown out of existence. Vader being lowballed to sub-TPM Kenobi is ridiculous, tbh, but so is wanking him to the level of the PT Titans, as many do on CV and other sites (which I’m sure you’ve witnessed firsthand).

Not really. The stuff that is released around seventies and on which directly prepares the foundation of the universe. And if we were to accept Lucas fully, why not just throw the entire Old Republic, NJO into the trashcan? Lucas doesn't really considers anything but his own as canon. He wants to be respectful towards to the material authors and designers create but despite that he says them they are completely something else.

March 28th 2020, 11:48 am

CuckedCurry wrote:And that’s what’s causing the divide. Some ignore Lucas, others follow his every word. Besides, I’m not even entirely sure that Lucas himself holds the same opinion of Vader as he did 20 years ago, as several post 2005 sources, such as the Coruscant nights series, the purge comics, DLTRODV, the Force unleashed etc portray him pretty beastly. Alternatively, you have mega low showings, most of which predate 2005. All in all, it would appear that Lucas shifted his vision for Vader’s power, much in the same way he did with Grievous.

And this essentially what I was trying to say. If the Vader brigade somehow manages to prove Lucas’ view changed and that it is consistent with the various authors’ portrayal of him (mainly referring to Michael Reaves) then Vader will have a chance, otherwise there’s no real way to get around around those statements, at best limit their damage. However, I recall Hayden Blackman was having several problems at writing Vader because his take on him was completely different from Lucas’ own, and that was way after 2005.

CuckedCurry wrote:As long as Vader’s still beating Starkiller everything can be all good

I agree, that’s all that really matters.

March 28th 2020, 11:49 am

@HellfireUnit Which is a fair point, but under our own methodology, we use G-Canon as it’s an official part of Legends canon in the Holocron. It’s the official highest ranking of canon. Lucas’ vision and the EU are separate entities, yes, but the foundation of this so called “lowballing” is substantiated in non-Lucas works as well. Resurrection is perhaps the greatest example.

March 28th 2020, 12:14 pm

IG wrote:I have Vader <= TPM maul, which isn’t bad at all @BoD. Resurrection supports my stance too. It’s not lowball to have him there, Lucas himself goes ahead and says “we haven’t seen anything”, in regards to combat in the OT. He outright declares ROTJ Luke pales in comparison to PT combatants. I take this a bit lightly and think of it as ROTJ Luke (and by extension, his equal in Vader) as equals of Jinn b/c I can’t see them losing to TPM Kenobi. @“The Witness” It’s a meme to say Vader < TPM Kenobi. It is not a meme to say he’s with TPM Maul. Ventress scales directly above tpm maul ala Mace, thus she’s more powerful than Vader.

We've had this argument time after time. None of that refers to power in any respect. Resurrection has author statements explaining it (including that Vader could have potentially killed Maul and the Prophets with the Force instead of limiting himself to saber combat). Vader then grew "far more formidable" with both the blade and the Force.

Even in skill, true, Vader can't flip around like Maul, TPM Kenobi or other characters in the PT, but his combination of skill, power, physicals (especially strength) and ruthlessness make him a match for many of them. Not all of course (Yoda, Sidious, Windu, KFV, etc are still far from reach), but many of them.

Now, perhaps you can explain how Ventress scaling above TPM Maul is more impressive than Vader apparently being capable of potentially killing Maul and the Prophets with the Force, then growing "far more formidable" and far more powerful after ANH. Not to mention even 19 BBY Vader has TK feats that crap on most of Ventress'.

March 28th 2020, 12:51 pm

On the topic of Legends Vader's placement, I typically put him with Dooku and ROTS Kenobi, just under ROTS Mace. He's not Ventress level, but he's nowhere near where lots of people on YouTube put him.