Re: Kueller Respect Thread (2020)

[NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven]

Dude, think for a second here. The lack of approval/amusement is specifically attributed to the old fashioned or unusual nature of something, not due to lack of power it possesses.

[The lord of hungerLevel Two]

Yeah, the quote in itself reveals its fallibility: if Mara "hadn't felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days," she evidently didn't have a measure of how powerful he became later on. @BoD makes a good point that she believed Luke and Vader to be capable of defeating him. Which then casts into doubt the veracity of the entire comparison, because if the Emperor never revealed the true depth of his strength to her later on, what guarantees he did so earlier either? Unless further evidence comes to light, I don't see a reason to believe the quote can be used to draw parity between Kueller and any iteration of the Emperor besides the extent to which Mara had been allowed to sense his power.

I know many these days have Vader in the dirt, the Kueller fans especially, so to make this succinct...  

Mara's perception:





Reality:

why did many have big vader boi on the dirt az.... and this is a serious question becuase it also happens to caedus too....

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

And why would being old-fashioned make Kun amusing to Vader? In any case, you're just reinforcing my point that Mara isn't a trustworthy source. The same Vader, who considered bowing to Karness Muur (another ancient Sith who he clearly respected), would find Kun "amusingly" strange, unusual and old-fashioned? Vader isn't stupid enough to laugh at a Sith much more powerful than himself because he's "old-fashioned", so it's pretty obvious she's talking about him being unusual or bizarre, indicating he wouldn't feel threatened by Kun:

Quaint can also be used to show that you do not approve of something, especially an opinion, belief, or way of behaving, because it is strange or old-fashioned:
"What a quaint idea!" she said, laughing at him.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

@The lord of hunger You ought to ask those who do, not me.

[The lord of hungerLevel Two]

@The lord of hunger You ought to ask those who do, not me.

seems fair to ask them then

[NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven]

@BoD:

And why would being old-fashioned make Kun amusing to Vader?

Because it makes him inferior in regards to achieving his goals, which is what Mara was referencing when she said Vader would have found Kun "amusingly quaint". That's also the more logical take as being old fashioned is often associated with a lack of sophistication, but is never correlated with a lack of power.

In any case, you're just reinforcing my point that Mara isn't a trustworthy source. The same Vader, who considered bowing to Karness Muur (another ancient Sith who he clearly respected), would find Kun "amusingly" strange, unusual and old-fashioned?

Mara wasn't referring to Vader meeting Kun in a combative scenario, which is the context he met Muur under.

For reference btw:

“What?” Exar Kun’s voice roared, as if in volume and intensity it could batter her down. “Who dares?”

“Who cares, more correctly.” She pointed at me. “Horn here has been worked over by the Empire’s best and never broke. Isard would have had you digitized, analyzed and discarded without a second thought, and she wasn’t even Force-sensitive. Darth Vader would have found you amusingly quaint, and the Emperor… well…” Mara Jade’s eyes flashed mercilessly. “The Emperor succeeded in destroying the Jedi, so he’d see you as the very definition of failure!”

This is the passage in question. Not only is it demonstrably not referencing power but it's also Mara clearly attempting to get under his skin. It's not something she really believes.

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

@ScionofSkywalker77 is absolutely correct. @BoD: You claim that you find Mara's claim about Kueller "clearly exaggerated" but then you go on to use Mara literally mocking Kun mid-fight as evidence?

This is the same Mara Jade that holds Sheev in a very high regard, akin to a "father figure", Sheev raised her pretty much from birth. One quote out of many is that Mara knows a lot of the extremities of Sheev's power, able to pull from "his own vast reserves of power". Note that Mara is at this point in time is explicitly drawing from Sheev's own "vast reserves of power", not what she perceives as Sheev's vast reserves of power.

And from the Emperor himself, Mara Jade learned to develop her Force powers. She learned to listen for his telepathic "voice," even across the galaxy, and to draw strength from his own vast reserves of power.

The main difference is Mara is clearly mocking Kun, while Mara is actually dumbfounded by Kueller's power and subsequent power-growth, as she explains to Han. So the basis at which to draw a comparison from simply isn't there. It also makes no sense for Mara to compare Kueller to Sheev if Kueller somehow isn't around the ballpark of RotJ Sheev, unless she was truly amazed by the Kueller's power and power-growth in comparison to RotJ Sheev's "vast reserves of power", which seems to be the case. Mara isn't shooting in the dark here, she is an accurate in being able to compare the power of both Kueller and Sheev.

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

@EmperorCaedus @ScionOfSkywalker77 I was using the quote as an example of the inconsistency in Mara's opinions. I wasn't using it to argue Vader > Kun as I don't believe that for a second. 

The main difference is Mara is clearly mocking Kun, while Mara is actually dumbfounded by Kueller's power and subsequent power-growth, as she explains to Han. So the basis at which to draw a comparison from simply isn't there. It also makes no sense for Mara to compare Kueller to Sheev if Kueller somehow isn't around the ballpark of RotJ Sheev, unless she was truly amazed by the Kueller's power and power-growth in comparison to RotJ Sheev's "vast reserves of power", which seems to be the case. Mara isn't shooting in the dark here, she is an accurate in being able to compare the power of both Kueller and Sheev.

As I should have started by saying, it's very, very common for a person to compare beings beyond you to others you know for a fact are beyond you. Mara knows Kueller is far beyond her, so her being terrified of Kueller's strength is natural. As I said before, Mara also believed that Luke, who was beyond her at that point, was strong enough (alongside Vader) to kill Sidious. She's not saying that they're literally more powerful nor even as powerful as Sidious, only that they're far enough above her to the point that the only way she can think to quantify that power is by comparing it to a figure of extreme strength and power, like Sidious (as she does by imagining them striking him down). That does not mean he's actually going to reach Sidious' level, only that she's so terrified of his power - that she can only quantify by comparing it to Sidious' - and fears it could reach Sidious' level. She has no way of knowing that for certain.

Other examples of beings who do this are Mace Windu (compares Kar Vastor to Yoda when Vastor is later stated to be <<< Vader), Luke (compares Exar Kun to DE Sidious), and so on.

As for this:

And from the Emperor himself, Mara Jade learned to develop her Force powers. She learned to listen for his telepathic "voice," even across the galaxy, and to draw strength from his own vast reserves of power.

Do you really think Sidious would let Mara tap into his full power, or is it more likely he let her tap into some of his power while stopping her from tapping into the rest? Why would she be able to feel the depths of his power? Has Sidious ever shown his full power around Mara?

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

@EmperorCaedus @ScionOfSkywalker77 I was using the quote as an example of the inconsistency in Mara's opinions. I wasn't using it to argue Vader > Kun as I don't believe that for a second. 

And it falls flat because Mara's opinions on Kun aren't her true opinions at all, she was literally spewing baseless taunts at Kun in the heat of the moment.

The main difference is Mara is clearly mocking Kun, while Mara is actually dumbfounded by Kueller's power and subsequent power-growth, as she explains to Han. So the basis at which to draw a comparison from simply isn't there. It also makes no sense for Mara to compare Kueller to Sheev if Kueller somehow isn't around the ballpark of RotJ Sheev, unless she was truly amazed by the Kueller's power and power-growth in comparison to RotJ Sheev's "vast reserves of power", which seems to be the case. Mara isn't shooting in the dark here, she is an accurate in being able to compare the power of both Kueller and Sheev.

As I should have started by saying, it's very, very common for a person to compare beings beyond you to others you know for a fact are beyond you. Mara knows Kueller is far beyond her, so her being terrified of Kueller's strength is natural. As I said before, Mara also believed that Luke, who was beyond her at that point, was strong enough (alongside Vader) to kill Sidious. She's not saying that they're literally more powerful nor even as powerful as Sidious, only that they're far enough above her to the point that the only way she can think to quantify that power is by comparing it to a figure of extreme strength and power, like Sidious (as she does by imagining them striking him down). That does not mean he's actually going to reach Sidious' level, only that she's so terrified of his power - that she can only quantify by comparing it to Sidious' - and fears it could reach Sidious' level. She has no way of knowing that for certain.

You are going through a set of extreme mental gymnastics to reach this conclusion, and you didn't/can't even substantiate this. Meanwhile I provided an exact quote stating Mara knew how "vast" RotJ Sheev's "reserves of power" are. Let's not get ourselves wrapped up in the copious amount of mental gymnastics/bending of the truth that is needed to reach your conclusion. You are simply wrong with these baseless assumptions until you provide further evidence.

Other examples of beings who do this are Mace Windu (compares Kar Vastor to Yoda when Vastor is later stated to be <<< Vader), Luke (compares Exar Kun to DE Sidious), and so on.

Mace's opinions are notoriously infallible by his own nature, even presuming himself incapable of TKing a train, and the Specter's of the Past quote only says they were the focal points of the dark side, not that they themselves are comparable in power. Even if you refute this, you'd have to substantiate the above statements for this to be relevant at all.

As for this:

And from the Emperor himself, Mara Jade learned to develop her Force powers. She learned to listen for his telepathic "voice," even across the galaxy, and to draw strength from his own vast reserves of power.

Do you really think Sidious would let Mara tap into his full power, or is it more likely he let her tap into some of his power while stopping her from tapping into the rest? Why would she be able to feel the depths of his power? Has Sidious ever shown his full power around Mara?

Why is your version of a rebuttal asking me a bunch of rhetorical questions without substantiating a thing? The quote I've given does state Mara tapped into Sidious' "vast reserves of power" And she did feel the depths of his "vast reserves" and these "vast reserves of power" would give Mara an extremely accurate opinion of Sheev's power, thus being able to accurately compare Kueller and RotJ Sheev's power.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

@EmperorCaedus

@ScionofSkywalker77 is absolutely correct. @BoD: You claim that you find Mara's claim about Kueller "clearly exaggerated" but then you go on to use Mara literally mocking Kun mid-fight as evidence?

This is the same Mara Jade that holds Sheev in a very high regard, akin to a "father figure", Sheev raised her pretty much from birth. One quote out of many is that Mara knows a lot of the extremities of Sheev's power, able to pull from "his own vast reserves of power". Note that Mara is at this point in time is explicitly drawing from Sheev's own "vast reserves of power", not what she perceives as Sheev's vast reserves of power.

And from the Emperor himself, Mara Jade learned to develop her Force powers. She learned to listen for his telepathic "voice," even across the galaxy, and to draw strength from his own vast reserves of power.

The main difference is Mara is clearly mocking Kun, while Mara is actually dumbfounded by Kueller's power and subsequent power-growth, as she explains to Han. So the basis at which to draw a comparison from simply isn't there. It also makes no sense for Mara to compare Kueller to Sheev if Kueller somehow isn't around the ballpark of RotJ Sheev, unless she was truly amazed by the Kueller's power and power-growth in comparison to RotJ Sheev's "vast reserves of power", which seems to be the case. Mara isn't shooting in the dark here, she is an accurate in being able to compare the power of both Kueller and Sheev.

You ought to address the opponent's argument directly next time. That Mara is able to draw from the Emperor's reserves does not remotely refute any of the relevant points raised. To give an analogy, one being able to draw water from a well does not necessitate one being privy to the exact depth of said well. If you want to make the argument that Kueller is on ROTJ Palpatine's tier using other evidence, go ahead, just don't use this quote.

Yeah, the quote in itself reveals its fallibility: if Mara "hadn't felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days," she evidently didn't have a measure of how powerful he became later on. @BoD makes a good point that she believed Luke and Vader to be capable of defeating him. Which then casts into doubt the veracity of the entire comparison, because if the Emperor never revealed the true depth of his strength to her later on, what guarantees he did so earlier either? Unless further evidence comes to light, I don't see a reason to believe the quote can be used to draw parity between Kueller and any iteration of the Emperor besides the extent to which Mara had been allowed to sense his power.

I know many these days have Vader in the dirt, the Kueller fans especially, so to make this succinct...

Mara's perception:





Reality:

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

You ought to address the opponent's argument directly next time. That Mara is able to draw from the Emperor's reserves does not remotely refute any of the relevant points raised. To give an analogy, one being able to draw water from a well does not necessitate one being privy to the exact depth of said well. If you want to make the argument that Kueller is on ROTJ Palpatine's tier using other evidence, go ahead, just don't use this quote.

That's not at all what it says though. Your analogy would work if Mara was drawing an amount of power from Sheev that isn't noted to be his "vast" reserves of power. If Mara was simply drawing from Sheev's presumably limited reserves as you implied, it wouldn't be specifically noted as his "vast" reserves, or of very great extent or quantity of reserves that she is drawing from. The passage noting that it was Sheev's "vast" reserves that Mara is drawing from means that the reserves are already a vast quantity of what Sheev's reserves contain, meaning that Mara knows generally how vast/deep Sheev reserves are, and thus is able to accurately draw a comparison. Note that this is not in anyway used to put Kueller directly on par with RotJ Sheev, just that Mara is accurate enough to put mid-novel Kueller in Sheev's general ballpark, this ballpark still being ragdoll gaps above the RotS Titans.

And from the Emperor himself, Mara Jade learned to develop her Force powers. She learned to listen for his telepathic "voice," even across the galaxy, and to draw strength from his own vast reserves of power.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

@EmperorCaedus The statement merely says the Emperor's reserves of power are vast and that Mara draws from those reserves. The word "vast" being used to describe the Emperor's reserves does not give any indication whatsoever as to the extent to which Mara is drawing on those reserves, or that she herself knows the exact depth of those reserves. To conclude such from that statement alone is just an inaccurate reading of the English language, plain and simple.

Now, putting that point aside, you still haven't refuted my main deduction, which is also very simple:

Premise One: Mara states she hasn't felt power like Kueller's since Palpatine "in the early days."
Premise Two: Palpatine grew more powerful after "the early days."
Conclusion: Mara never sensed Palpatine's true power after "the early days" i.e. during Return of the Jedi.

Which, then, casts into doubt her entirely judgement as there's no guarantee the Emperor revealed his full potency to her earlier either if he neglected to do so later on. Again, see the juxtaposition between Mara's vision and how devastating Sheev is in actuality.

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

To add to the above, Mara Jade was working for Palpatine long before ANH. Early days would be referring to this point.

[The LostLevel Five]

Also... from what I gather in order to know a Force user's full potency you need to witness it first hand. There's more examples of this than I can think of.

Maul sparred against Sidious innumerable times but still believed he was "unknowable", and noticed a marked difference when he was "actually trying to kill him." Luke trained under Sidious in Dark Empire but only experienced his "full potency" in the form of a Force storm. Bane and Kas'im both realized the other had been holding something in reserve when they fought on Lehon, even though they had sparred intensely prior. Galen noted that Vader had been holding back in their own spars.

So why Mara would have an accurate gauge of Sheev's full potency is unknown to me.

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

@Azronger: After further investigation, I concede to the errors I have perceived in the text. Nothing will change on the Respect Thread though, since I did not draw any further conclusions (i.e: Kueller ~ Sheev). If any evidence of Mara knowing Sheev's potency comes up, I'll be sure to run it by this thread again. Note, there are still many other comparisons from Luke's and Leia's perspective, those being accurate.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

Luke states Kueller is more powerful than any living being he has felt since Palpatine. Note that this is likely in reference to Return of the Jedi Palpatine, as Bantam Books either differentiate Dark Empire Palpatine as instead the “reborn Emperor” or outright ignore the series, meaning the quote includes Joruus C’baoth and Gethzerion.

The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

I'm also unconvinced this is in reference to ROTJ Palpatine. Not only do I not care for some supposed "trend" in Bantam-published books, but the sentence itself would not make sense in the greater context of the lore as Luke has felt the power of DE Palpatine which is greater than that of his ROTJ counterpart. In other words, if he's referring to ROTJ Sheev, then he's by default also suggesting that the DE Sheev is less powerful than ROTJ Sheev, which both sourcebooks and Luke himself have opined to be untrue. By extension, then, this quote doesn't put Kueller above Joruus C'baoth or Gethzerion either.

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

@Azronger

I'm also unconvinced this is in reference to ROTJ Palpatine. Not only do I not care for some supposed "trend" in Bantam-published books, but the sentence itself would not make sense in the greater context of the lore as Luke has felt the power of DE Palpatine which is greater than that of his ROTJ counterpart. In other words, if he's referring to ROTJ Sheev, then he's by default also suggesting that the DE Sheev is less powerful than ROTJ Sheev, which both sourcebooks and Luke himself have opined to be untrue. By extension, then, this quote doesn't put Kueller above Joruus C'baoth or Gethzerion either.

I understand where you are coming from, since you are looking at the quote in a vacuum. 

Exhibit A:

"What happened, Master Skywalker?" Eelysa was crouched beside him, her small, slender body hunched against an unseen enemy. She had been a surprise, a native of Coruscant, born after the Emperor's death, her Force abilities untainted by the poisons around her. She was young. So very, very young.

According to you, Eelysa would be born sometime after 11 ABY after the reborn Emperor's death. But, Eelysa was born in 4 ABY, so the "Emperor" is referred to as his RotJ iteration rather than his "reborn" iteration. Note how there is no explicit mention of the "Emperor" being referred to as "Old Body Sidious" or something along those lines, thus making it known that the "Emperor" should be referred to his RotJ iteration unless explicitly mentioned otherwise. 

Exhibit B: 

Then a wave of emotion slammed into him-cold, hard, and filled with terror. The pain was worse than anything he had ever felt, worse than the near loss of his leg on the Eye ofPalpatine, worse than the Emperor's electric blast on the Death Star, worse than the destruction of his face on Hoth. Mixed with the terror and pain was the shock of betrayal, a shock multiplied by the millions of minds who felt it.

This instance is more clear cut. The "Emperor" is specifically referred to the iteration that shocked Luke on the Death Star. According to your logic, the Dark Empire iteration of the Emperor would be the one who shocked Luke on the Death Star, which is obviously wrong. Again, I feel the need to reiterate any and all times the "Emperor" is mentioned, it's always implied to be the one from Return of the Jedi. There is no mention of anything related to Dark Empire in this book, so there is no need to differentiate RotJ Sidious and Dark Empire Sidious from eachother. 

Exhibit C: 

But the injury made other things possible. The injury did weaken Skywalker, and it would weaken his resolve. He might need some fast, easy strength. Kueller might succeed where the Emperor had not.

Kueller might be able to turn Luke Skywalker to the dark side.

And then they would rule together: Kueller as Emperor, and Luke as his Darth Vader.

How very appropriate.

This instance is the most discernible of them all. Not only is the "Emperor" referred to as his RotJ iteration, but Kueller notes the Emperor had failed in turning Luke to the dark side, which directly contradicts the events of Dark Empire, in which the reborn Emperor successfully turns Luke to the dark side. 

I've scavenged New Rebellion looking for any mention of Dark Empire, and there are none at all, thus making it redundant to refer to RotJ Sidious as anything more specific than "the Emperor.

The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Now back to this quote. Since all of the material above suggests the "Emperor" is referred to his RotJ iteration, every time, then I don't see why here it would be different.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

@EmperorCaedus You've not even remotely addressed my actual argument, which gives a very real reason for why the sentence is in reference to DE, not ROTJ. All you've done is give some pointless and irrelevant exhibits with different contexts, and then strawmanned my entire position with the fallacy of hasty generalization by asserting that I supposedly believe that every time the Emperor is mentioned, it must refer to DE, from the fact that I believe DE to have been referenced once. The entire basis for my argument was that the alternative interpretation contradicts the lore, and yet here you're alleging that I, at the same time, hold multiple lore-breaking opinions, in complete opposition to what I'm really arguing.

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

@Azronger: If you were right, Leia believes that Kueller is more powerful than DE Sheev, and she is accurate in making that claim. Either way scales Kueller above Gethzerion and Joruus C'baoth 

She wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

...nothing in that quote even remotely indicates Kueller is more powerful than DE Sheev.

Anyway, do you concede the previous argument?

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

Leia believes Kueller "had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun" Which would indicate Kueller has more force capability than DE Sheev. The logical conclusion is that every reference to the "Emperor" is referring to it's RotJ iteration, which would explain why Sheev was left out of this quote. 

This isn't a concession. I'm using your train of thought to come to the conclusion that Kueller has more Force capability than DE Sheev.

[Master AzrongerModerator]

No, nothing dictates that DE Sheev is included in that quote given that he precedes Exar Kun in the timeline - we know that Sheev is more powerful than even spirit Kun per an objective source. And you've not even remotely explained how my train of thought supposedly leads to the conclusion that Kueller is above DE Sheev. Saying it without substantiation doesn't help your case at all.

[EmperorCaedusLevel Three]

No, nothing dictates that DE Sheev is included in that quote given that he precedes Exar Kun in the timeline

What does Exar Kun coming after Sheev in the timeline have to do with Sheev being included or not? She claims Kueller has more Force capability than any "she had encountered in years." Leia encountered DE Sidious less than 6 years ago at this point.

we know that Sheev is more powerful than even spirit Kun per an objective source.

I didn't object to that. 

And you've not even remotely explained how my train of thought supposedly leads to the conclusion that Kueller is above DE Sheev. Saying it without substantiation doesn't help your case at all.

Your train of thought: The sentence does not make sense as Luke has felt the power of Dark Empire Sidious which is greater than that of his RotJ counterpart.

Me: The quote referring to RotJ Sidious makes sense in the greater context of the book because all times that the "Emperor" are mentioned, it specifically refers to the RotJ iteration, and even contradicts the events of Dark Empire.

You: All you've done is give some pointless and irrelevant exhibits with different contexts. It must refer to DE, from the fact that I believe DE to have been referenced once.

Me: Even if you were true - and the "Emperor" refers to the Dark Empire iteration for this quote, this would mean Dark Empire isn't ignored. Then, the implications would be that Leia believes Kueller has more Force capability than anyone she's encountered in years, besides Exar Kun, which therefore includes DE Sidious. Unless you continue to argue "years" doesn't encompass Dark Empire Sidious, (which is a very weak argument) then your line of thought would work perfect well for this, and as a result Kueller would scale above Dark Empire Sidious, and by extension Gethzerion and Joruus C'baoth.

[The LostLevel Five]

Or maybe Leia's cut off for "years" is less than six? Maybe it's like three or four?

[The Adventurous JediLevel Seven]

EC is once again not elaborating on his points. He calls the argument "weak", but never explains why.

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