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NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
March 25th 2020, 11:28 pm
Kenobi as of the end of Revenge Of The Sith, Arcann as of Knights Of The Eternal Throne.
This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidlines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:
>Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
>Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
>All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
Judges as of this time remain undecided (Post will be edited when that decision is made). There is no time limit, nor will there be a cap on the amount of characters afforded to each side bar for the finisher, which will contain a maximum of 5000. The debate shall have 3 posts per side, not including the finsher.
xoltholLevel Five
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
March 26th 2020, 2:53 am
TAEP Good Luck to both of you
HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
March 26th 2020, 2:54 am
Good luck fellas, wishing a nice debate, TAEP
The Adventurous JediLevel Seven
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
March 26th 2020, 7:50 am
TAEP.
TheNuisanceBird
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
March 26th 2020, 10:46 pm
This should be fun. Don't know what TAEP means though.
IGLevel Four
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
March 26th 2020, 11:00 pm
@TheNuisanceBird Tag After Every Post
The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
March 27th 2020, 1:43 am
TAEP
- IGLevel Four
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
April 9th 2020, 8:50 am
The Valklander
In Chapter 8 of Knights of the Fallen Empire, The Outlander fights Arcann in what is, to say the least, one of the most one-sided affairs in Star Wars. At the end of the fight, the player is given one of two choices:
Here, I’m going to be focusing on the latter incident, as it’s far more relevant to my point here. The idea that the Valklander blast is power beyond the HoT’s bodily potential is a contested one, but that’s fairly irrelevant considering the matter at hand. Arguing the power is beyond his potential would be akin to arguing Sidious achieved his bodily potential in The Phantom Menace, a tangent that’s fairly irrelevant here. The important part is that it’s too much power for his body to hold, and like mentioned before, knocks the latter out for two days. It’s far, far more power than anything the Outlander has wielded before, whether it be a nexus amp, a BM amp, or power from Valkorion himself, channeled through his body. The lightning also disables and destroys all ships surrounding the Spar, per SCORPIO, and kills “hundreds” caught in the blast:
Since the HoT was, to some, “competing” against Arcann, it’d stand to reason that because the latter can hold off against a blast in excess of the HoT’s potential, or at least, how much power the HoT can utilize before their body goes to shit, that the HoT was close to achieving their potential (or achieving the upper limit of power usable by their body). However, in KOTFE Chapter 5, The HoT, Senya Tirall, and Lana Beniko are struggling to hold off a group of Zakuulan Knights and Skytroopers. Valkorion says, mid fight, that he requires “only the briefest moment of control”, and with aforementioned control, he oneshots the entire group. It’s worth noting that Valk also mentions “you are outmatched” before he takes over, meaning that there’s not really a chance the Outlander and co could’ve defeated their foes.
We know that factually, Valkorion is pouring more power into the Outlander in the fight against Arcann than against the horde of Zakuul Knights and Skytroopers--the Outlander is fine after using this power, in sharp contrast to the Outlander’s state after using Valk’s power in Chapter 8. Just “the briefest moment” of projecting Valkorion’s power, to a lesser extent than against Arcann, has the Outlander going from struggling against a group of enemies alongside allies, being driven back slowly, to outright oneshotting them. It’s not unsimilar to jumping from a contemporary of, for example, Tiin or Kolar to outright blitzing them ala Sidious. And Arcann is holding out against the Valklander full-potential blast for an extended period of time after a drawn out duel against the Outlander, a clear indication of being near this full-potential HoT, if not equal or superior. Consider that Arcann’s using his barrier to block this, something that’s less effective than a usage of the force like tutaminis (external application of TK to block something versus energy absorption, tutaminis is more geared towards lightning). Thus, the Valklander blast that far, far exceeds the HoT’s current (as of Chapter 8) power, by not only an indeterminate amount, but a roughly quantifiable margin, amounting to a oneshot gap... if not more.
Revan and Malak
The Hero of Tython is easily one of the most powerful force users to ever live. To outline the growth the HoT receives and how it’s specifically relevant, the HoT grows a massive amount on Rishi, after they stop repressing their memories of their time under Vitiate’s thrall as a Sith. His former master, Orgus Din says, “You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you you pushed the memories of his training down deep”. Consider, per Nick Gillard, “Once you get to [tier] 7 or 8, you could easily jump to 9, but that’s the difference between light and dark”. Gillard specifically notes here that once you reach a tier like 7 or 8, you could easily jump up to a 9, but that’s what differentiates lightsided and darksided force users. We see this in action with Anakin Skywalker, as he jumps from a “8”, from the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, but once he taps into the dark, he becomes a 9. We see this in action with a host of other characters as well. Upon recovering his memories, the HoT says, “My memories of that time are power. The power is my right and weapon, I claim it”. Gillard likens the sensation to “force LSD”, a sensation the HoT experienced as a result of his spiritual experience on Rishi, where he’s able to come to terms with the dark within him.
The Hero of Tython, as of Act 3 is directly superior to Revan Reborn. When the Hero goes to fight Vitiate, Scourge refuses to accompany him, saying that he’d be immediately dominated by Vitiate, denoting at the least an outright oneshot gap. The same Scourge, 300 years earlier and thus far weaker, is considered a valuable ally for Revan against Vitiate. While he’s certainly far weaker than Vitiate himself, he’s not so much weaker that he’d be outright telepathically dominated, like Scourge in Act 3 would be. This ultimately cements the weakened Vitiate on Kaas as superior to the Vitiate in the Revan novel. However, the HoT allows Vitiate to “gather” his strength, and it is noted that Vitiate will “recover quickly”. The Hero of Tython, before he goes on to face Vitiate has to fight through the entirety of Kaas City, then fight through the Dark Temple, and an Imperial Guard bunker. For reference, the Imperial Guard were a force of elite warriors who were specially trained to fight and kill Jedi and Sith Lords. They were "physical perfection", and it was said that "merely one is worth a hundred ordinary troops." Darth Marr counted them "among the most dangerous in the galaxy”.
This HoT has run a gauntlet perhaps greater than that which Revan faced on the Star Forge, yet still he is able to defeat Vitiate, who’s described as “nothing before you”. Thus the Hero of Tython as of Act 3 defeats a Vitiate superior to the one that Revan Reborn lost to.
Before retrieving his mask and regaining old DS knowledge and power, Revan defeats Malak several times over after fighting through a gauntlet that’s described as having lasted an “hour” (KOTOR Prima Game Guide), while on an immensely powerful Dark Side Nexus. Per Malak, “The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us!”. Indisputably, this is a showing of immense superiority over Malak.
The above quote is evidence that Darth Malak is more powerful than Exar Kun. It asks whether Malak’s vocal mask provides him with power greater than Kun or Nadd, or whether that’s too simple of an explanation. The answer to the question of course, is the latter, a reference to the Star Forge, which provides Malak with aforementioned power.
Exar Kun grows far, far more powerful after obtaining the Dark Holocron, to the point where it’s solely attributed for his rise to power:
Before obtaining the holocron, Kun hides his presence from all the Jedi in Ossus, then proceeds to rip a holocron out of Odan Urr’s hand, resists Urr trying to sever him from the force, then goes on to kill the Jedi, while on an extremely powerful Light Side Nexus.
This is important because Odan-Urr, 1000 years prior (and therefore vastly pre-prime), at the end of the Great Hyperspace War is able to casually grab the Dark Holocron:
The Dark Holocron is “the most powerful Sith Holocron [ever]”, according to The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology. This of course, includes the Holocron of King Adas, an ancient Sith King from before the Republic existed. Adas’ Holocron causes Qui-Gon Jinn to hallucinate, and exhausts his power, as well as clouding his mind significantly, a sign of superiority or parity, or at the very least comparability:
The same Jinn is “past his prime” during The Phantom Menace, where he’s able to match Maul’s strength in a duel:
The relevance of this argument is pretty obvious. The gap between Arcann and TPM Maul is too great for Kenobi to ever surpass. Kenobi as of TPM is immensely inferior to his ROTS iteration, but his growth just doesn’t cover the gap between Arcann to Maul.
The Exiles
The idea that Arcann’s immense inferiors have a place higher up in the PT isn’t an idea only supported by Adas scaling, however. The scaling below substantiates this position as well.
Malak is also far more powerful than the Dark Jedi Exiles Ajunta Pall describes the power of an individual Star Map as “blinding”, and identifies it as the source of his and the Exiles’ power. Malak drives the Star Forge to 300%, displaying his ability to wield far greater power with far less strain than the Exiles, an undeniable showing of superiority. Before retrieving his mask and regaining old DS knowledge and power, Revan defeats Malak several times over after fighting through a gauntlet that’s described as having lasted an “hour” (KOTOR Prima Game Guide), while on an immensely powerful Dark Side Nexus. Per Malak,, “The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us!”. Indisputably, this is a showing of immense superiority over Malak.
Ajunta Pall notes remorsefully that the Exiles were “more powerful than those that came before us”. This isn’t a boasting declaration claiming he’s more powerful than everyone else, he’s rambling, sadly. Thus he’s more powerful than his predecessors. Andeddu was an ancient Sith preceding the Sith Empire. While we don’t know much of what time period he lived (Only indication is him being alive “thousands of years” before 137 ABY). However, he ruled Prakith, a Deep Core World. Around the time of the Golden Age of the Sith, when Ragnos and Sadow lived, the Republic was but a myth. There was no way for any of the Sith to even reach Mid-Rim planets, let alone Deep Core Worlds like Prakith. Andeddu being around from the time of the Dark Jedi Exiles, and thus weaker than Ajunta Pall, a character that’s nothing to Malak, who’s likewise nothing before the HoT (Act 3), who himself is nothing before Arcann. There is corroborating evidence for Andeddu being weaker than the Dark Jedi Exiles, however.
Andeddu faces off against Darth Wyyrlok in a telepathic duel, and Andeddu is thoroughly decimated. To call this fight anything less than a decisive defeat, if not a stomp, would be underselling Wyyrlok, and making Andeddu out to be far more powerful than he is:
Now contrast this to Karness Muur’s performance against a group of foes that together are far greater than Wyyrlok, and we see a far greater performance. Muur is not easily dismissed, as Andeddu is, he puts up an incredible fight, and ultimately overcomes his foes. Wyyrlok himself regards Muur and his contemporaries as “powerful”.
We see Muur able to engage in a prolonged duel with (an albeit weakened) Darth Krayt, among others. This is a much, much better performance than Andeddu, something that speaks to the Exiles’, and therefore Arcann’s immense, immense superiority to Andeddu.
Holocrons
This superiority to Andeddu is important because of Andeddu’s holocron. Upon obtaining Andeddu’s holocron, Dooku says, “Through this holocron I have access to the long dead wisdom of Darth Andeddu. The wisdom and power of the Sith”. More importantly however, he also says, “A Dark Jedi is Nothing to the power of the Sith”, speaking to Quinlan Vos. The meaning of this quote is immediately evident, the power of the Sith is far greater than that of a Dark Jedi like Vos. One may claim that it’s referring to Dooku’s own power, however when Vos insinuates Dooku’s a Sith, Dooku replies, “When did I ever say I was Sith?”, implying that he’s referring to Andeddu’s own power. Consider that Andeddu is the only other Sith there that he could be speaking about. He says that through the holocron, he has access to the “power of the Sith”, the term Sith there referring to Andeddu, explicitly. Next, he goes on saying that Dark Jedi are nothing before Sith, but the only Sith around to refer to that would make sense in this context were himself and Andeddu. But after this, he does not acknowledge himself as Sith, when Vos says he is Sith, instead denying it. Thus the quote has to refer to Andeddu, and thus Andeddu is more powerful than Vos. Andeddu is thus even more powerful than Ventress, as of this scan, as Ventress is no Sith, but a Dark Jedi as well/
Kenobi Himself
There’s plenty of arguments on where Kenobi places among the PT Titans, all of which, for now, I’ll leave alone, as they’re utterly irrelevant here. Arcann is not bound by the PT Titans. Any argument suggesting he is falls flat. Arcann is neither Jedi, nor Sith, and thus nor Yoda, nor Sidious have any supremacy over him. The strongest bound character, the Hero of Tython as of Shadow of Revan can be oneshotted by Arcann. So even if Kenobi is on par with Yoda and Sidious and Vader, he’s still not going to scale above Arcann in power.
Style and Unique Traits
Kenobi is the master of a foremost defensive style. Per Bane, Soresu requires “patience to best your enemies”, Kenobi’s style is built around wearing his opponents down, and then striking when they’re running on fumes. But that won’t work against Arcann. Arcann has a “nearly unbeatable defense” as a result of his training, and his superior force power will give him a dominant edge against Kenobi as it did the Outlander. Kenobi won’t be able to tire Arcann, and he also won’t be able to penetrate Arcann’s defense if he does attempt to strike. Arcann utilizes the force frequently in his assaults, including Telekinesis (link, link, link, link, link, link, link), techniques like Dark Blast (link), and lightning (link).
Arcann’s use, mastery, and knowledge of the Force are attributes that give him a defining edge over Kenobi as well. According to Satele Shan, “Arcann and his Knights learned to use the Force in a way different than Jedi and Sith. It’s why we couldn’t truly defeat them”. Per Darth Marr, “Victory over Arcann requires new perspectives… and new weapons”. Arcann displays abilities like Dark Blast, as seen in a GIF linked before. Arcann can only have learned these esoteric abilities from his father. It stands to reason then, that this isn’t the only ability Arcann has knowledge of. The amount of knowledge Valkorion possesses is tremendous. Valkorion “performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives”. Suffice to say it, the knowledge he gained was incredible, both in quantity and quality. The most prominent of his captives was Revan. Revan’s sources of knowledge are perhaps among the greatest in the mythos. He got knowledge from the Trayus Academy, an “ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge”, as well as knowledge from Korriban and the Brotherhood of the Sith. Revan “uncovered the lost secrets of the Sith and became the heir to an ancient and evil legacy”. The meaning of this is evident, Revan is the heir to the Ancient Sith, who count Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, and Marka Ragnos among their ranks.
The knowledge that Revan, and therefore Valkorion and Arcann are privy to is immense, and something most in the Prequel era cannot counter. To prove this, we need look no further than the example of Exar Kun. When Kun attacks him, “Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly”. This is important because in DE, “the Emperor unveils his teaching, and Luke is given the knowledge that was bestowed on his father before him”. This includes knowledge from Sidious’ archives, knowledge that is at least around the kind of knowledge that is commonplace to PT Jedi like Kenobi, if not far, far more. So Luke with knowledge similar to that of Kenobi (but likely far greater, as Kenobi and Yoda trained him, and Luke also learns from Sidious’ archives) is utterly defenseless against Kun’s esoteric techniques. Nothing he knows can save him. Obviously, Kun is privy to knowledge that few, if any, know about, but there’s a precedent for ancient powers and knowledge to be unknown in the Prequel era. As shown earlier, Dooku seems to be learning new things from Andeddu’s holocron, knowledge that isn’t revolutionary in ancient times. Vitiate himself knows Essence Transfer, a coveted ability Andeddu knew, something that’s unknown during the Prequels, with the only exception being Sidious himself.
I’m not claiming Arcann knows these specific techniques, but every knowledge comparison between the Old Republic and the Prequels ends up favorable for the former, and rather devastating for the latter. It indicates a significant knowledge and haxx disparity between Kenobi and Arcann, yet another disadvantage for the former.
Conclusion
There’s an immense amount of evidence favoring Arcann in this matchup, including a ridiculous raw power advantage, a far greater amount of knowledge and mastery, as well as a style perfectly suited to take on Kenobi. There are multiple scaling chains here that I’ve presented that all display Arcann as immensely superior to almost everyone in the PT era. Arcann is directly more powerful (by oneshots gaps) than lesser iterations of Kenobi, and Kenobi’s growth is not enough to make up for the disparity between Arcann and the lesser iterations of himself.
@ScionofSkywalker77 Your move,
In Chapter 8 of Knights of the Fallen Empire, The Outlander fights Arcann in what is, to say the least, one of the most one-sided affairs in Star Wars. At the end of the fight, the player is given one of two choices:
- They can refuse Valkorion’s power, and then get outright pulled onto Arcann’s saber.
- They can accept his power, and unleash a burst of lightning so powerful that their body cannot handle the power, and they are injured enough that they’re out of commission for two days.
Here, I’m going to be focusing on the latter incident, as it’s far more relevant to my point here. The idea that the Valklander blast is power beyond the HoT’s bodily potential is a contested one, but that’s fairly irrelevant considering the matter at hand. Arguing the power is beyond his potential would be akin to arguing Sidious achieved his bodily potential in The Phantom Menace, a tangent that’s fairly irrelevant here. The important part is that it’s too much power for his body to hold, and like mentioned before, knocks the latter out for two days. It’s far, far more power than anything the Outlander has wielded before, whether it be a nexus amp, a BM amp, or power from Valkorion himself, channeled through his body. The lightning also disables and destroys all ships surrounding the Spar, per SCORPIO, and kills “hundreds” caught in the blast:
Since the HoT was, to some, “competing” against Arcann, it’d stand to reason that because the latter can hold off against a blast in excess of the HoT’s potential, or at least, how much power the HoT can utilize before their body goes to shit, that the HoT was close to achieving their potential (or achieving the upper limit of power usable by their body). However, in KOTFE Chapter 5, The HoT, Senya Tirall, and Lana Beniko are struggling to hold off a group of Zakuulan Knights and Skytroopers. Valkorion says, mid fight, that he requires “only the briefest moment of control”, and with aforementioned control, he oneshots the entire group. It’s worth noting that Valk also mentions “you are outmatched” before he takes over, meaning that there’s not really a chance the Outlander and co could’ve defeated their foes.
We know that factually, Valkorion is pouring more power into the Outlander in the fight against Arcann than against the horde of Zakuul Knights and Skytroopers--the Outlander is fine after using this power, in sharp contrast to the Outlander’s state after using Valk’s power in Chapter 8. Just “the briefest moment” of projecting Valkorion’s power, to a lesser extent than against Arcann, has the Outlander going from struggling against a group of enemies alongside allies, being driven back slowly, to outright oneshotting them. It’s not unsimilar to jumping from a contemporary of, for example, Tiin or Kolar to outright blitzing them ala Sidious. And Arcann is holding out against the Valklander full-potential blast for an extended period of time after a drawn out duel against the Outlander, a clear indication of being near this full-potential HoT, if not equal or superior. Consider that Arcann’s using his barrier to block this, something that’s less effective than a usage of the force like tutaminis (external application of TK to block something versus energy absorption, tutaminis is more geared towards lightning). Thus, the Valklander blast that far, far exceeds the HoT’s current (as of Chapter 8) power, by not only an indeterminate amount, but a roughly quantifiable margin, amounting to a oneshot gap... if not more.
Revan and Malak
The Hero of Tython is easily one of the most powerful force users to ever live. To outline the growth the HoT receives and how it’s specifically relevant, the HoT grows a massive amount on Rishi, after they stop repressing their memories of their time under Vitiate’s thrall as a Sith. His former master, Orgus Din says, “You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you you pushed the memories of his training down deep”. Consider, per Nick Gillard, “Once you get to [tier] 7 or 8, you could easily jump to 9, but that’s the difference between light and dark”. Gillard specifically notes here that once you reach a tier like 7 or 8, you could easily jump up to a 9, but that’s what differentiates lightsided and darksided force users. We see this in action with Anakin Skywalker, as he jumps from a “8”, from the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, but once he taps into the dark, he becomes a 9. We see this in action with a host of other characters as well. Upon recovering his memories, the HoT says, “My memories of that time are power. The power is my right and weapon, I claim it”. Gillard likens the sensation to “force LSD”, a sensation the HoT experienced as a result of his spiritual experience on Rishi, where he’s able to come to terms with the dark within him.
The Hero of Tython, as of Act 3 is directly superior to Revan Reborn. When the Hero goes to fight Vitiate, Scourge refuses to accompany him, saying that he’d be immediately dominated by Vitiate, denoting at the least an outright oneshot gap. The same Scourge, 300 years earlier and thus far weaker, is considered a valuable ally for Revan against Vitiate. While he’s certainly far weaker than Vitiate himself, he’s not so much weaker that he’d be outright telepathically dominated, like Scourge in Act 3 would be. This ultimately cements the weakened Vitiate on Kaas as superior to the Vitiate in the Revan novel. However, the HoT allows Vitiate to “gather” his strength, and it is noted that Vitiate will “recover quickly”. The Hero of Tython, before he goes on to face Vitiate has to fight through the entirety of Kaas City, then fight through the Dark Temple, and an Imperial Guard bunker. For reference, the Imperial Guard were a force of elite warriors who were specially trained to fight and kill Jedi and Sith Lords. They were "physical perfection", and it was said that "merely one is worth a hundred ordinary troops." Darth Marr counted them "among the most dangerous in the galaxy”.
This HoT has run a gauntlet perhaps greater than that which Revan faced on the Star Forge, yet still he is able to defeat Vitiate, who’s described as “nothing before you”. Thus the Hero of Tython as of Act 3 defeats a Vitiate superior to the one that Revan Reborn lost to.
Before retrieving his mask and regaining old DS knowledge and power, Revan defeats Malak several times over after fighting through a gauntlet that’s described as having lasted an “hour” (KOTOR Prima Game Guide), while on an immensely powerful Dark Side Nexus. Per Malak, “The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us!”. Indisputably, this is a showing of immense superiority over Malak.
Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and a devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed some form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?
The above quote is evidence that Darth Malak is more powerful than Exar Kun. It asks whether Malak’s vocal mask provides him with power greater than Kun or Nadd, or whether that’s too simple of an explanation. The answer to the question of course, is the latter, a reference to the Star Forge, which provides Malak with aforementioned power.
Exar Kun grows far, far more powerful after obtaining the Dark Holocron, to the point where it’s solely attributed for his rise to power:
Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Exar Kun might not have risen to power so quickly had Odan-Urr destroyed the Sith Holocron when he’d had the chance.
Before obtaining the holocron, Kun hides his presence from all the Jedi in Ossus, then proceeds to rip a holocron out of Odan Urr’s hand, resists Urr trying to sever him from the force, then goes on to kill the Jedi, while on an extremely powerful Light Side Nexus.
This is important because Odan-Urr, 1000 years prior (and therefore vastly pre-prime), at the end of the Great Hyperspace War is able to casually grab the Dark Holocron:
The Dark Holocron is “the most powerful Sith Holocron [ever]”, according to The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology. This of course, includes the Holocron of King Adas, an ancient Sith King from before the Republic existed. Adas’ Holocron causes Qui-Gon Jinn to hallucinate, and exhausts his power, as well as clouding his mind significantly, a sign of superiority or parity, or at the very least comparability:
Jedi Quest Special Edition: Followers wrote:Qui-Gon immediately anchored himself to the cliff and reached out to the Force to try and stop the fall. But the dark energy in the giant crevasse worked against him. He felt oddly exhausted and had little ability to concentrate.
--
"I don't see anything," Obi-Wan said. His voice sounded strangely hollow, and Qui-Gon wasn't sure if it was because of the chasm, his fall, or because they were so close to the Holocron. The concentration of dark knowledge could tap one's strength. He certainly weakened himself. But the strange hollow feeling also let Qui-Gon know they were on the right track. He felt at once repelled and drawn closer.
--
Qui-Gon's mind reeled. He could feel that they were close to the Holocron. Very close. He tried to focus, to find its location, but the dark side was playing tricks with his mind. It was so near and still beyond his mental vision. There was so much he didn't understand. If Lundi had held the Holocron, where was it now? Did someone else have it? Had he been unable to handle the power?
The same Jinn is “past his prime” during The Phantom Menace, where he’s able to match Maul’s strength in a duel:
Episode I Journal: Darth Maul wrote:I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance. My lightness and quickness will defeat this man, with his large body, his heavy movements. But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike. Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.
The relevance of this argument is pretty obvious. The gap between Arcann and TPM Maul is too great for Kenobi to ever surpass. Kenobi as of TPM is immensely inferior to his ROTS iteration, but his growth just doesn’t cover the gap between Arcann to Maul.
The Exiles
The idea that Arcann’s immense inferiors have a place higher up in the PT isn’t an idea only supported by Adas scaling, however. The scaling below substantiates this position as well.
Malak is also far more powerful than the Dark Jedi Exiles Ajunta Pall describes the power of an individual Star Map as “blinding”, and identifies it as the source of his and the Exiles’ power. Malak drives the Star Forge to 300%, displaying his ability to wield far greater power with far less strain than the Exiles, an undeniable showing of superiority. Before retrieving his mask and regaining old DS knowledge and power, Revan defeats Malak several times over after fighting through a gauntlet that’s described as having lasted an “hour” (KOTOR Prima Game Guide), while on an immensely powerful Dark Side Nexus. Per Malak,, “The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us!”. Indisputably, this is a showing of immense superiority over Malak.
Ajunta Pall notes remorsefully that the Exiles were “more powerful than those that came before us”. This isn’t a boasting declaration claiming he’s more powerful than everyone else, he’s rambling, sadly. Thus he’s more powerful than his predecessors. Andeddu was an ancient Sith preceding the Sith Empire. While we don’t know much of what time period he lived (Only indication is him being alive “thousands of years” before 137 ABY). However, he ruled Prakith, a Deep Core World. Around the time of the Golden Age of the Sith, when Ragnos and Sadow lived, the Republic was but a myth. There was no way for any of the Sith to even reach Mid-Rim planets, let alone Deep Core Worlds like Prakith. Andeddu being around from the time of the Dark Jedi Exiles, and thus weaker than Ajunta Pall, a character that’s nothing to Malak, who’s likewise nothing before the HoT (Act 3), who himself is nothing before Arcann. There is corroborating evidence for Andeddu being weaker than the Dark Jedi Exiles, however.
Andeddu faces off against Darth Wyyrlok in a telepathic duel, and Andeddu is thoroughly decimated. To call this fight anything less than a decisive defeat, if not a stomp, would be underselling Wyyrlok, and making Andeddu out to be far more powerful than he is:
Now contrast this to Karness Muur’s performance against a group of foes that together are far greater than Wyyrlok, and we see a far greater performance. Muur is not easily dismissed, as Andeddu is, he puts up an incredible fight, and ultimately overcomes his foes. Wyyrlok himself regards Muur and his contemporaries as “powerful”.
We see Muur able to engage in a prolonged duel with (an albeit weakened) Darth Krayt, among others. This is a much, much better performance than Andeddu, something that speaks to the Exiles’, and therefore Arcann’s immense, immense superiority to Andeddu.
Holocrons
This superiority to Andeddu is important because of Andeddu’s holocron. Upon obtaining Andeddu’s holocron, Dooku says, “Through this holocron I have access to the long dead wisdom of Darth Andeddu. The wisdom and power of the Sith”. More importantly however, he also says, “A Dark Jedi is Nothing to the power of the Sith”, speaking to Quinlan Vos. The meaning of this quote is immediately evident, the power of the Sith is far greater than that of a Dark Jedi like Vos. One may claim that it’s referring to Dooku’s own power, however when Vos insinuates Dooku’s a Sith, Dooku replies, “When did I ever say I was Sith?”, implying that he’s referring to Andeddu’s own power. Consider that Andeddu is the only other Sith there that he could be speaking about. He says that through the holocron, he has access to the “power of the Sith”, the term Sith there referring to Andeddu, explicitly. Next, he goes on saying that Dark Jedi are nothing before Sith, but the only Sith around to refer to that would make sense in this context were himself and Andeddu. But after this, he does not acknowledge himself as Sith, when Vos says he is Sith, instead denying it. Thus the quote has to refer to Andeddu, and thus Andeddu is more powerful than Vos. Andeddu is thus even more powerful than Ventress, as of this scan, as Ventress is no Sith, but a Dark Jedi as well/
Kenobi Himself
There’s plenty of arguments on where Kenobi places among the PT Titans, all of which, for now, I’ll leave alone, as they’re utterly irrelevant here. Arcann is not bound by the PT Titans. Any argument suggesting he is falls flat. Arcann is neither Jedi, nor Sith, and thus nor Yoda, nor Sidious have any supremacy over him. The strongest bound character, the Hero of Tython as of Shadow of Revan can be oneshotted by Arcann. So even if Kenobi is on par with Yoda and Sidious and Vader, he’s still not going to scale above Arcann in power.
Style and Unique Traits
Kenobi is the master of a foremost defensive style. Per Bane, Soresu requires “patience to best your enemies”, Kenobi’s style is built around wearing his opponents down, and then striking when they’re running on fumes. But that won’t work against Arcann. Arcann has a “nearly unbeatable defense” as a result of his training, and his superior force power will give him a dominant edge against Kenobi as it did the Outlander. Kenobi won’t be able to tire Arcann, and he also won’t be able to penetrate Arcann’s defense if he does attempt to strike. Arcann utilizes the force frequently in his assaults, including Telekinesis (link, link, link, link, link, link, link), techniques like Dark Blast (link), and lightning (link).
Arcann’s use, mastery, and knowledge of the Force are attributes that give him a defining edge over Kenobi as well. According to Satele Shan, “Arcann and his Knights learned to use the Force in a way different than Jedi and Sith. It’s why we couldn’t truly defeat them”. Per Darth Marr, “Victory over Arcann requires new perspectives… and new weapons”. Arcann displays abilities like Dark Blast, as seen in a GIF linked before. Arcann can only have learned these esoteric abilities from his father. It stands to reason then, that this isn’t the only ability Arcann has knowledge of. The amount of knowledge Valkorion possesses is tremendous. Valkorion “performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives”. Suffice to say it, the knowledge he gained was incredible, both in quantity and quality. The most prominent of his captives was Revan. Revan’s sources of knowledge are perhaps among the greatest in the mythos. He got knowledge from the Trayus Academy, an “ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge”, as well as knowledge from Korriban and the Brotherhood of the Sith. Revan “uncovered the lost secrets of the Sith and became the heir to an ancient and evil legacy”. The meaning of this is evident, Revan is the heir to the Ancient Sith, who count Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, and Marka Ragnos among their ranks.
The knowledge that Revan, and therefore Valkorion and Arcann are privy to is immense, and something most in the Prequel era cannot counter. To prove this, we need look no further than the example of Exar Kun. When Kun attacks him, “Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly”. This is important because in DE, “the Emperor unveils his teaching, and Luke is given the knowledge that was bestowed on his father before him”. This includes knowledge from Sidious’ archives, knowledge that is at least around the kind of knowledge that is commonplace to PT Jedi like Kenobi, if not far, far more. So Luke with knowledge similar to that of Kenobi (but likely far greater, as Kenobi and Yoda trained him, and Luke also learns from Sidious’ archives) is utterly defenseless against Kun’s esoteric techniques. Nothing he knows can save him. Obviously, Kun is privy to knowledge that few, if any, know about, but there’s a precedent for ancient powers and knowledge to be unknown in the Prequel era. As shown earlier, Dooku seems to be learning new things from Andeddu’s holocron, knowledge that isn’t revolutionary in ancient times. Vitiate himself knows Essence Transfer, a coveted ability Andeddu knew, something that’s unknown during the Prequels, with the only exception being Sidious himself.
I’m not claiming Arcann knows these specific techniques, but every knowledge comparison between the Old Republic and the Prequels ends up favorable for the former, and rather devastating for the latter. It indicates a significant knowledge and haxx disparity between Kenobi and Arcann, yet another disadvantage for the former.
Conclusion
There’s an immense amount of evidence favoring Arcann in this matchup, including a ridiculous raw power advantage, a far greater amount of knowledge and mastery, as well as a style perfectly suited to take on Kenobi. There are multiple scaling chains here that I’ve presented that all display Arcann as immensely superior to almost everyone in the PT era. Arcann is directly more powerful (by oneshots gaps) than lesser iterations of Kenobi, and Kenobi’s growth is not enough to make up for the disparity between Arcann and the lesser iterations of himself.
@ScionofSkywalker77 Your move,
- IGLevel Four
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
April 9th 2020, 8:50 am
@HellfireUnit @NotAA3 @xolthol @TheNuisanceBird @”The lord of hunger” @BoD
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
April 9th 2020, 12:41 pm
solid post
MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: SS - Obi-Wan Kenobi (DC77) vs Arcann (IG)
May 12th 2020, 8:59 am
The thread has been moved here on DC’s and IG’s request, as IG has decided to leave SW debating.
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