Luke Skywalker vs Starkiller

Round 1: Rebellion Era Luke vs TFU2 Marek
Round 2: RotJ Luke vs TFU1 Marek.

Make sure to explain your answer

As long as it stays a duel, Luke wins every single time because he scales to a much stronger and more skillful Vader but right when Marek breaks out his Force abilities then Luke is toast.

Starkiller.

Why?

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Why?

Because he ragdolled Vader a few years prior to the OT and Luke believe that had Vader been trying to actively kill him with the Force in RotJ he wouldn't have been able to stop him... I don't have any reason to believe that Vader grew so much over that few year gap that he's now bridged the distance between them.

You do realize that both the RotJ novel and Fightsaber say Vader had a noticeable power boost between the OT movies right? And Vader was equal to the Starkiller clone who was => OG Marek two whole years before ANH and he became equal to the Marek Clone in only about a years time. I know Luke said that but at the same time there are sources that say RotJ Luke was equal to RotJ Vader if not above him. If Vader was holding back then why did he go for at least two kill blows with the novel saying “he Did not want to kill the boy if he wasn’t fighting at his best but he would kill the boy who wouldn’t fight.” Even if Vader was holding back its clear that Luke was doing the same even going as far as to toss his saber on the floor and hide because he didn’t want to fight which is shown in the script and the fact that Vader is carrying Luke’s saber in the movie. Once Luke switched on the Dark Amp he became superior to Vader by literally blitzing a superior Vader who was trying to kill him. Oh and Marek had the advantage because Vader’s suit was weak to Force lightning meanwhile Luke had no such advantage nor weakness to such an attack.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Round 1: Rebellion Era Luke vs TFA2 Marek
Round 2: RotJ Luke vs TFA1 Marek.

Make sure to explain your answer

The Force Awakens Starkiller is a multi-planet destroyer, Luke couldn't life an X-wing, SK stomps

Isv wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Round 1: Rebellion Era Luke vs TFA2 Marek
Round 2: RotJ Luke vs TFA1 Marek.

Make sure to explain your answer

The Force Awakens Starkiller is a multi-planet destroyer, Luke couldn't life an X-wing, SK stomps

idk man, vader says that the power of the death star is nothing when compared to the force, and guess what buddy, luke can use the force.

Because he ragdolled Vader a few years prior to the OT

After badly injuring him and while Vader was "prepar(ing) for combat again." 

and Luke believe that had Vader been trying to actively kill him with the Force in RotJ he wouldn't have been able to stop him... I don't have any reason to believe that Vader grew so much over that few year gap that he's now bridged the distance between them.

Why not? He massively grew in power and skill.

Now you're just being dishonest. The quote says Vader "prepared" for combat again, which is past tense meaning he had already braced himself for SK's attack, he just wasn't powerful enough to defend against it.

ESB Luke beats TFU 2 SK

NotAA3 wrote:Now you're just being dishonest. The quote says Vader "prepared" for combat again, which is past tense meaning he had already braced himself for SK's attack, he just wasn't powerful enough to defend against it.

Lol. He's badly wounded and doesn't have a chance to defend himself or make any sort of offensive attack. So Vader got a few seconds to recover from being stabbed through the thigh, having his neck sliced and being sliced across the shoulder before a still enraged Galen went at him with the Force, all events which took place within seconds of each other. It's pretty clear Vader wasn't prepared since he barely even puts up a fight (which, like it or not, he's been shown to be capable of) once he's seized with the Force.

I'd also like to mention that "prepared" can be used to describe an ongoing process, as it does here. If a few seconds after a cataclysmic event you "prepared your defences" for example, that's describing you gathering your defences as you ready yourself. It does not necessarily mean that you're 100% ready and able to defend as you're doing it (I doubt Galen, enraged as he was, held back from ragdolling Vader for more than a few seconds at best, during which Vader would be dealing with severe injuries, apparently damaged prostheses, and a combination of pain and weariness).

@BoD

Lol. He's badly wounded and doesn't have a chance to defend himself or make any sort of offensive attack. So Vader got a few seconds to recover from being stabbed through the thigh, having his neck sliced and being sliced across the shoulder before a still enraged Galen went at him with the Force, all events which took place within seconds of each other.

This isn't a rebuttal. You're adding in your own inference that he was unprepared without acknowledging the quote that says he was prepared. As for him being "badly wounded", I'm not convinced he was. Dark Siders can draw upon pain from negligent wounds, and in Vader's case he's fully armoured, there's no indication the Lightsaber wounds crippled him. Note that Vader goes on to take getting a generator thrown at him, and being hit by Galen's Oneness explosion, without even being knocked out showing he clearly wasn't badly crippled like you're suggesting. Moreover, SK, when he throws the generator, is glad that "some real blood was flowing" indicating that the wounds Vader sustained prior weren't extremely debilitating (else SK wouldn't be so happy blood was flowing).

It's pretty clear Vader wasn't prepared since he barely even puts up a fight (which, like it or not, he's been shown to be capable of) once he's seized with the Force.

Vader's never been shown to put up a fight against Enlightened!SK. Their "fight" was a single paragraph of Vader backpedalling and getting dominated in Lightsaber combat.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:You do realize that both the RotJ novel and Fightsaber say Vader had a noticeable power boost between the OT movies right?

I'm aware that Vader grew throughout the OT. I have no reason to believe his growth during this period was any greater then his growth over any other 4 year period. In fact, it's far more reasonable to assume that his growth during those 4 years would have been less than any 4 year gap before this point due to the fact that Vader would've logically had diminishing returns as time went on. To put it in simpler terms, who grows faster, a youngling or a middle aged Jedi master? 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:And Vader was equal to the Starkiller clone who was => OG Marek two whole years before ANH and he became equal to the Marek Clone in only about a years time.

Vader was a peer of a Starkiller clone that was left physically shaking with exhaustion after blowing apart an army of his own clones that would have been able to easily overwhelm Vader after having passed out less than an hour prior as a result of blowing apart the Salvation, moving capital ship sized debris and powering a cannon blast that split a Star Destroyer in two. He's directly described to be "more exhausted than he's ever been" and we're shown that SK's exhaustion prior to this makes it so that he struggles to lift objects that are far smaller than ones he's been shown to move casually in a less hindered state, meaning that we're directly shown that in a less hindered state, Starkiller's ability to use the Force is diminished. That being the case, I don't see how you can argue Vader's performance against Starkiller in TFU2 to be an accurate gauge of either character's abilities. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:I know Luke said that but at the same time there are sources that say RotJ Luke was equal to RotJ Vader if not above him. I know Luke said that but at the same time there are sources that say RotJ Luke was equal to RotJ Vader if not above him.

I'm sorry, but how exactly does this contradict Luke's claim? The ability to utilize an ability and defend against it are not only tied to one's power in the Force but also their knowledge and skill with the ability. Basic Force abilities such as augmentation or telekinesis are of course going to be less effected by this but that doesn't mean Vader would be unable to circumvent Luke's defenses in the way Luke believes him capable of with a more advanced technique. In fact, he actually does this to Luke in their fight in RotJ.

"Luke closed his eyes. I’m sorry, Leia and Han. I’d do anything to save you, but I must resist the dark side. Suddenly, Luke felt a dull ache in his head, and sensed that Vader was using the Force to probe his mind. 

“Yes, your thoughts betray you,” Vader spoke, confirming Luke’s suspicion. “Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for …” 

Luke tried to block his thoughts — and failed. 

“Sister!” Vader said." - RotJ Junior Novelization.

This is further backed up in the Dark Empire comic run wherein Sidious states that Luke COULD surpass his father, implying that he hadn't by that point. Since we know power is not the only metric by which ability is measured and Sidious emphasizes Luke's lack of knowledge and need for training, this falls in line with the idea that Luke requires further training to be as formidable as his father. 

"The reborn emperor tried in vain to convince Luke that his destiny was to be a dark Jedi. Luke could be strong, stronger than his father." - Fact File 105. 

-





By the end of the Dark Empire, Luke is confirmed to have been taught the knowledge his father had meaning he did not possess such knowledge previously. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:If Vader was holding back then why did he go for at least two kill blows with the novel saying “he Did not want to kill the boy if he wasn’t fighting at his best but he would kill the boy who wouldn’t fight.”

I just reread the entire RotJ fight along with the junior novelization. Please quote me the instances where Vader went for "two killing blow" because I did not see them. 

First off, you misquoted the passage: 

"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness." - Return of the Jedi. 

The quote doesn't say that he wasn't holding back. Only that he was willing to kill Luke if necessary. The problem with this interpretation however is twofold: 

One, Vader's stated intent prior to this is NOT to kill Luke but rather to turn him. It's only after Luke refuses to fight that his thoughts turn to potentially killing him in order to "win." Winning in this scenario likely refers to survival. Either by turning Luke and beating him in order to use him to overthrow the Emperor later or ending his son's life if he refuses to fight to prevent him from becoming a tool for the Emperor later on or simply because those are his master's wishes and he cannot go against them. 

"Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down - then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled. Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy. So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places - or in the right places prematurely." - Return of the Jedi. 

Two, Vader himself isn't certain on his feelings and he grows more uncertain and conflicted as the fight progresses with Luke sensing this. 

Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed - Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.

-

"With grave uncertainty, [Vader] entered the shadowy overhang." 

-

"Luke heard something else, though. 'Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you ... the conflict." - Return of the Jedi. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Even if Vader was holding back its clear that Luke was doing the same even going as far as to toss his saber on the floor and hide because he didn’t want to fight which is shown in the script and the fact that Vader is carrying Luke’s saber in the movie.

Upon initially engaging Vader, Luke was furious and drawing heavily on the Darkside:

Spoiler:

Luke only began holding back once he realized the hold the Darkside had on him and actively calmed himself after this. THAT is when Luke only defends himself and throws away his saber.

Spoiler:

I.E. the only time we actually see Luke engage with Vader in lightsaber combat outside of fending off Vader's attack after having initially gained the advantage is when he's actively drawing on his rage and hatred and giving in to the Darkside. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Once Luke switched on the Dark Amp he became superior to Vader by literally blitzing a superior Vader who was trying to kill him. 

Vader at that point is explicitly stated to be heavily conflicted and Luke himself was enraged. Not sure why you think such contextual circumstances would be at all relevant to a fight between Luke and Starkiller if I'm being honest. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Oh and Marek had the advantage because Vader’s suit was weak to Force lightning meanwhile Luke had no such advantage nor weakness to such an attack.

I'm sorry, but the only time Marek explicitly used Force lightning on Vader in their fight was to halt Vader's momentum and gain some breathing room. What does that have to do with Marek telekinetically dominating him?

BoD wrote:

Because he ragdolled Vader a few years prior to the OT

After badly injuring him and while Vader was "prepar(ing) for combat again." 

1. The hits Vader took were stated to not even have drawn blood with Galen being happy that he finally DID draw blood after landing those blows. 

2. Injuries like the one Vader received have been known to empower Darksiders. While I could see a viable argument being made for such injuries impairing Vader's efficiency as a lightsaber combatant, I don't see any reason to think that they would diminish his capacity to use the Force. 

3. Vader wasn't stated to have been "preparing for combat." Vader was stated to have been "prepared for combat" with the text nothing that DESPITE this, such efforts were futile against Galen by this point: 

"Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued," - The Force Unleashed. 

Spoiler:

He's even stated to have attempted to defend himself against Galen's telekinetic assault but failed to stop it despite his efforts. 

BoD wrote:

and Luke believe that had Vader been trying to actively kill him with the Force in RotJ he wouldn't have been able to stop him... I don't have any reason to believe that Vader grew so much over that few year gap that he's now bridged the distance between them.

Why not? He massively grew in power and skill.

He had 4 years of growth that would've logically been less than any prior 4 year gap and the only quote to mention significant growth overall is from an article from Fightsaber focusing on Vader's improved ability as a lightsaber combat.

BoD wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Now you're just being dishonest. The quote says Vader "prepared" for combat again, which is past tense meaning he had already braced himself for SK's attack, he just wasn't powerful enough to defend against it.

1. Lol. He's badly wounded and doesn't have a chance to defend himself or make any sort of offensive attack. So Vader got a few seconds to recover from being stabbed through the thigh, having his neck sliced and being sliced across the shoulder

2. before a still enraged Galen went at him with the Force,

3. all events which took place within seconds of each other.

4. It's pretty clear Vader wasn't prepared since he barely even puts up a fight (which, like it or not, he's been shown to be capable of) once he's seized with the Force.

1. As I mentioned, the wounds in question didn't even bleed with Galen being surprised and Vader mocking him for it. 

"The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat.

-

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was." For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator. Then the Dark Lord laughed. It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery." - The Force Unleashed. 

2. Galen was no longer enraged when he "went at him with the Force" as you claimed. The text goes out of its way to make note of this: 

"The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued" - The Force Unleashed. 

3. Based on what are you making the claim that all of these events happened within a few seconds? 

4. Vader is stated to be prepared. The reason he couldn't defend against Galen is because, as the text notes, DESPITE him being prepared, his power over Galen is gone because Galen realizes that Vader is a pathetic figure that shouldn't be emulated. 

BoD wrote:I'd also like to mention that "prepared" can be used to describe an ongoing process, as it does here. If a few seconds after a cataclysmic event you "prepared your defences" for example, that's describing you gathering your defences as you ready yourself. It does not necessarily mean that you're 100% ready and able to defend as you're doing it (I doubt Galen, enraged as he was, held back from ragdolling Vader for more than a few seconds at best, during which Vader would be dealing with severe injuries, apparently damaged prostheses, and a combination of pain and weariness).

Galen was not enraged at the time as has already been addressed. 

The text emphasizes that Vader being prepared for combat was a point in his favor as the text goes on to make it clear that his efforts in this regard makes no difference due to Galen's altered mental state:

"Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone." - The Force Unleashed.

The text emphasizes Vader preparing for combat as a positive thing in his favor by using the word "however" ( I.E. "despite these efforts" ).

Although Luke is the superior lightsaber duellist, I'm siding with Starkiller due to his tendency to resort to violent Force usage.

BoD wrote:

Because he ragdolled Vader a few years prior to the OT

After badly injuring him and while Vader was "prepar(ing) for combat again." 


and Luke believe that had Vader been trying to actively kill him with the Force in RotJ he wouldn't have been able to stop him... I don't have any reason to believe that Vader grew so much over that few year gap that he's now bridged the distance between them.

Why not? He “massively” grew in power and skill.


Wheres your proof that he grew “massively?” I do agree he grew tho.

@NotAA3 @Syndiciate @AlakanSpacewalker Will get back to all three of you in the next few days. If I haven't replied by the weekend, please tag me.

@Syndiciate:

I'm aware that Vader grew throughout the OT. I have no reason to believe his growth during this period was any greater then his growth over any other 4 year period. In fact, it's far more reasonable to assume that his growth during those 4 years would have been less than any 4 year gap before this point due to the fact that Vader would've logically had diminishing returns as time went on. To put it in simpler terms, who grows faster, a youngling or a middle aged Jedi master?

Well I do since it’s been implied that Vader was training to be strong enough to overthrow Palpatine once Luke showed up.

Vader was a peer of a Starkiller clone that was left physically shaking with exhaustion after blowing apart an army of his own clones that would have been able to easily overwhelm Vader after having passed out less than an hour prior as a result of blowing apart the Salvation, moving capital ship sized debris and powering a cannon blast that split a Star Destroyer in two. He's directly described to be "more exhausted than he's ever been" and we're shown that SK's exhaustion prior to this makes it so that he struggles to lift objects that are far smaller than ones he's been shown to move casually in a less hindered state, meaning that we're directly shown that in a less hindered state, Starkiller's ability to use the Force is diminished. That being the case, I don't see how you can argue Vader's performance against Starkiller in TFU2 to be an accurate gauge of either character's abilities.

No, he was shaking because he just had a memory flash of Juno, not because he was exhausted, heck he barley showed sight of exhaustion from what I could tell. In the TFU comic Juno manages to slice open Vader’s control box which heavily injures him because that’s the only way he can breath making his injuries far worse than any “exhaustion” Marek could have had. And when was Marek “more exhausted than he’s ever been?” It’s been a while since I’ve played the game so can you post your scans plz? I’m terribly sorry for asking this.

I'm sorry, but how exactly does this contradict Luke's claim?

Because those sources also know what’s truly going through Vader’s mind. Plus all Luke said was that he felt the good in him but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Vader was holding back.

The ability to utilize an ability and defend against it are not only tied to one's power in the Force but also their knowledge and skill with the ability. Basic Force abilities such as augmentation or telekinesis are of course going to be less effected by this but that doesn't mean Vader would be unable to circumvent Luke's defenses in the way Luke believes him capable of with a more advanced technique. In fact, he actually does this to Luke in their fight in RotJ.

What’s this have to do with anything? I never said anything about the two being equal Force users, I said they were equal SWORDSMAN https://servimg.com/view/20069174/318

This is further backed up in the Dark Empire comic run wherein Sidious states that Luke COULD surpass his father, implying that he hadn't by that point. Since we know power is not the only metric by which ability is measured and Sidious emphasizes Luke's lack of knowledge and need for training, this falls in line with the idea that Luke requires further training to be as formidable as his father.

Imagine thinking “DE era Luke is < Vader” as duelists when Luke was already flat out said to be equal to Vader in RotJ. Though again I agree he needed training in the “Dark Side” to be equal to Vader as a Force practitioner so I’ll give you that.

George Lucas Star Wars Featurette Birth of the Lightsaber says:
"And then as we go on into the next fight, it becomes more of an equal confrontation."

By the end of the Dark Empire, Luke is confirmed to have been taught the knowledge his father had meaning he did not possess such knowledge previously.

Yeah, his knowledge in the Dark Side but that doesn’t necessarily mean he wasn’t less powerful than him before that after all freaking Asajj Ventress has more knowledge of the Dark Side than say Mustifar Kenobi but that doesn’t mean she’s now stronger than Mustifar Kenobi. FACTS except them.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:If Vader was holding back then why did he go for at least two kill blows with the novel saying “he Did not want to kill the boy if he wasn’t fighting at his best but he would kill the boy who wouldn’t fight.”

I just reread the entire RotJ fight along with the junior novelization. Please quote me the instances where Vader went for "two killing blow" because I did not see them. 

https://youtu.be/U1MnMA0TzGI

1:47 mark where he says “you are unwise to lower your defenses and straight up drawls his saber and slashes at Luke.

And

2:37 mark where he literally throws his lightsaber at Luke.

If Luke wasn’t fast enough to dodge them all then he would have been killed.

Oh, and I find it noteworthy to mention that Luke as early as ESB gave Vader a “serious fight” so...

One, Vader's stated intent prior to this is NOT to kill Luke but rather to turn him. It's only after Luke refuses to fight that his thoughts turn to potentially killing him in order to "win." Winning in this scenario likely refers to survival. Either by turning Luke and beating him in order to use him to overthrow the Emperor later or ending his son's life if he refuses to fight to prevent him from becoming a tool for the Emperor later on or simply because those are his master's wishes and he cannot go against them.

Palpatine wasn’t going to let both Skywalkers live, one of them had to die, Vader knew this, and his mentality was “one of us is gonna die right now and it will not be me.” I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but Vader valued his place with the Emperor as more important than Luke’s life to him and I think the novel makes it clear that Vader was willing to use his full skills to beat his son yet he fails; DARTH VADER a seasoned warrior of over 35 years of training combat experience was unable to instantly turn the tide of the fight in his favor at any moment Luke started to lose and the RotJ novel also said Vader was angry after Luke kicked him and wanted revenge.

Two, Vader himself isn't certain on his feelings and he grows more uncertain and conflicted as the fight progresses with Luke sensing this.

Being conflicted still doesn’t change how fast, strong, or skilled you are and again Luke was reluctant aswell.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Even if Vader was holding back its clear that Luke was doing the same even going as far as to toss his saber on the floor and hide because he didn’t want to fight which is shown in the script and the fact that Vader is carrying Luke’s saber in the movie.

Upon initially engaging Vader, Luke was furious and drawing heavily on the Darkside:

Luke jumped back, and turned, lightsaber upraised, to face his father. Vader extended his own blade, poised to do battle." - Return of the Jedi.[/spoiler]

Luke only began holding back once he realized the hold the Darkside had on him and actively calmed himself after this. THAT is when Luke only defends himself and throws away his saber.

I’m aware Luke was using the Dark Side but once he deactivated his saber, that’s when he started holding back

the Ultimate Guide says: "Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but “LUKE” held back."

I.E. the only time we actually see Luke engage with Vader in lightsaber combat outside of fending off Vader's attack after having initially gained the advantage is when he's actively drawing on his rage and hatred and giving in to the Darkside.

Well that just goes to show that prime Vader can’t break through Luke’s defenses. And you do realize that Vader uses the Dark Side all the time so it’s not really an amp on Luke’s part.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Once Luke switched on the Dark Amp he became superior to Vader by literally blitzing a superior Vader who was trying to kill him. 

Vader at that point is explicitly stated to be heavily conflicted and Luke himself was enraged. Not sure why you think such contextual circumstances would be at all relevant to a fight between Luke and Starkiller if I'm being honest

While it’s not even debatable that he was conflicted, there’s not much evidence to suggest that it was a hindrance and sources say it wasn’t. Also Marek always uses the Dark Side so I don’t see what’s the problem with Luke doing the same especially when he’s done it before.

I'm sorry, but the only time Marek explicitly used Force lightning on Vader in their fight was to halt Vader's momentum and gain some breathing room. What does that have to do with Marek telekinetically dominating him?

He did that to him while he was injured and distracted because Marek threw other stuff at him before hitting him. And when I posted that I was referring to TFU2.

Sorry to ask this but could you reformat your post a little bit? I think you accidentally didn't quote some sections of my post and it's kind of jumbled as a result.

@AlakanSpacewalker

Is it better now?

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Is it better now?

Yep.