AotC Anakin vs Darth Vader

Meatpants wrote:Well considering how far Dooku scales above TPM Maul, and the fact that Anakin can press him, coupled with the Pablo quote and some other insane stuff Anakin has done as a Padawan gives off a clear message here. There's no proof that Vader's on Dooku's tier, and if we take Ressurection as any indication he's barely able to kill TPM Maul.

What does TFM Maul have to do with anything? Jermey Barlow once said in an interview “he’s not on Vader level.” And why would Vader “barley be able to kill TFM Maul?”

Resurrection is not an indicator of anything. Even if it were, it's before Vader became "far more formidable" post ANH.

I personally think Vader takes it, albeit with considerable difficulty. 

First, Vader is far, far more experienced than Anakin, and there is nothing Anakin has learned that Vader doesn't know. In fact, Vader is a far more formidable lightsaber duelist, due to having a good 26 years of practice over Anakin. There is no possible way Anakin has a skill advantage, since he's literally up against an older and more experienced version of himself. 

Second, while Anakin is arguably more powerful (and even that is debatable, considering RotJ Vader is said to be more powerful than ever, which may include his time as Anakin, depending on your interpretation), Vader is far more skilled at using the Force. Statements from Obi-Wan and Jax Pavan let us know that Anakin was aloof as a Padawan, and didn't take his training seriously. Until the Clone Wars broke out, Anakin coasted by on immense natural talent, and arrogantly believed he was already an equal to the best Jedi in the Order. He only really developed into a peer of Yoda after being motivated by his loss to Dooku and his time in the war.

Meanwhile, Vader was constantly advancing his abilities. Between hunting Jedi, training for a rematch with Obi-Wan, preparing to overthrow Palpatine, training his own secret apprentice, and training to turn his son to the dark side, Vader was under constant pressure to develop. Even if he no longer has the raw strength that AotC Anakin has, he's still darn close, and he makes much, much better use of his power.

Let's not forget, while Anakin gave Dooku a good fight, post-AotC Anakin was immensely challenged by pre-prime Asajj Ventress, and only won due to a rage boost after she had solidly tooled him for most of the fight. Vader is factually well above the likes of Asajj at her best.

AotC Anakin has the skill, speed, and power to put up a serious fight against Vader, but he just doesn't have anything that Vader isn't prepared to deal with. Vader's lightsaber style is far more developed, his feats of power are easily comparable, he has better scaling, his feats of control far outweigh anything Anakin has shown by this point, and he's infinitely more durable.

Vader takes this.

Meatpants wrote:Anakin manhandles him.

Why?

DarthAdi wrote:

Meatpants wrote:Well considering how far Dooku scales above TPM Maul, and the fact that Anakin can press him, coupled with the Pablo quote and some other insane stuff Anakin has done as a Padawan gives off a clear message here. There's no proof that Vader's on Dooku's tier, and if we take Ressurection as any indication he's barely able to kill TPM Maul.

Do you think AOTC Anakin is above TPM Maul? Doesn't this contradict Gillard's system where Maul is an 8 and Anakin a 7.

Just because some guy said that doesn’t mean Anakin is beneath Maul. Maul was pressed by Obi Wan meanwhile Dooku toyed with an Obi Wan who had over 10+ years of active Force study (to a point where he gained Force powers and became much more refined in his already decent Force knowledge) and saber practice (to a point where he was highly proficient in form III as well as refining his form IV and form I skills to an even greater degree than they were when he fought Maul) and Dooku just toyed with him till he got bored and incapacitated him. After that Dooku would fight Yoda literally seconds after fighting Anakin (who had also exhausted him which has been stated Star Wars Fact Files 103 and 57) and battled Yoda to a near stalemate both with the blade and with the Force. Dooku is vastly above TFM Maul my friends.

DarthAdi wrote:Do you think AOTC Anakin is above TPM Maul? Doesn't this contradict Gillard's system where Maul is an 8 and Anakin a 7.

If only fighting ability is being considered, then yes, he is; Gillard has said as much.  His level system takes other factors into account, though, and Anakin's mentally a wreck in AOTC.

Some good arguments for Vader here, but quite honestly I can see Anakin easily replicating Luke's showing. Vader is undoubtably, crafter, more calculating, and more technically refined, but Luke has already proven that Vader can be outhustled by a strong come forward style and Anakin fights similarly to Luke and is just as powerful. Vader is more skilled and more seasoned but Anakin like Luke has greater ability.

@O-Siri: that’s a false equivalent because Vader is superior to Dooku (based on scaling) who bodied AtoC Anakin and Luke is far superior to AotC Anakin. If this was Anakin from RotS then yes that would work but unfortunately it’s not.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Maul was pressed by Obi Wan meanwhile Dooku toyed with an Obi Wan who had over 10+ years of active Force study (to a point where he gained Force powers and became much more refined in his already decent Force knowledge) and saber practice (to a point where he was highly proficient in form III as well as refining his form IV and form I skills to an even greater degree than they were when he fought Maul) and Dooku just toyed with him till he got bored and incapacitated him.

Obi-Wan was exhausted from the arena fight and having been held captive. Maul fought a frenetic Kenobi who was fighting with reckless abandon and frantic determination while Dooku fought an arm weary and cautious Kenobi. The Kenobi Maul fought is the one with the greater offensive pressure, the one Dooku fought wouldn't pressure Maul unless Maul toyed with him and Kenobi suddenly switched tactics and caught him off guard, as he did to Dooku briefly. 

After that Dooku would fight Yoda literally seconds after fighting Anakin (who had also exhausted him which has been stated Star Wars Fact Files 103 and 57) and battled Yoda to a near stalemate both with the blade and with the Force. Dooku is vastly above TFM Maul my friends.

Getting 'exhausted' in the first place doesn't bode well with Dooku's standing as an elite fighter. It just exposes critical weakness in Dooku's susceptibility to sustained pressure that doesn't hold the same for TPM Maul who was described as "fresh as ever", exaggeration or not it's a hell of a lot better than Dooku's showing. If AotC Anakin can do that much, Maul who is ever much the pressure fighter he is but more technically refined and mentally disciplined, can do far worse to Dooku. 


And Dooku was emphatically outclassed by Yoda as per the script and both novelizations, it wasn't even close to a stalemate. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:
Just because some guy said that doesn’t mean Anakin is beneath Maul. 

That "some guy" was Nick Gillard, a stunt coordinator that was heavily involved in the creative process of the lightsaber fights in the Prequels, and the system wasn't created by him, it was created by George Lucas. It holds more weight than a fan fiction tier system. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Maul was pressed by Obi Wan meanwhile

Maul was pressed by Obi-Wan because he was caught off guard by his rage boost:

"The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit." -- The Phantom Menace Novel.

Obi-Wan was able to initially force Maul on the defensive by catching him off guard because Maul's instincts and tactics were adjusted to a much slower and less aggressive Obi-Wan. Another source reinforces this, saying that Obi-Wan's rage was what helped him break Maul's saberstaff:

"He wore down Qui-Gon's defenses and dispatched the Jedi Master with a quick jab to the chest. The act enraged Obi-Wan, who attacked Darth Maul in a rush. Though Obi-Wan's heated assault cut through the Sith Lord's double-ended lightsaber handle, it left him vulnerable to a sudden counterattack." -- Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force.

Next: 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Dooku toyed with an Obi Wan who had over 10+ years of active Force study (to a point where he gained Force powers and became much more refined in his already decent Force knowledge) and saber practice (to a point where he was highly proficient in form III as well as refining his form IV and form I skills to an even greater degree than they were when he fought Maul) and Dooku just toyed with him till he got bored and incapacitated him.

This block of text is just a fallacious and meaningless use of ABC logic. Obi-Wan wasn't even at full strength when he fought Dooku in AotC:

"Alone, he knew he had little chance of winning against Dooku. Not only was Dooku a master swordsman, he was rested and fresh, while Obi-Wan was already weary from the fight at the arena." -- Attack of the Clones Junior Novel.

Obi-Wan was weary (weary meaning feeling or showing extreme tiredness, especially as a result of excessive exertion), because he had already expended a lot of energy and effort into fighting off an army of droids in the Petranaki arena. 

There's also the fact that Obi-Wan as of AotC, wasn't even close to developing Soresu to the degree that he had in RotS. While fighting Dooku, Obi-Wan was mostly relying on Ataru, but Dooku has a unique knowledge advantage of Obi-Wan's version of Ataru because it stinks of Qui-Gon Jinn's fighting style, thanks to the fact that he had sparred with Qui-Gon at least a thousand times as Dooku says in his internal monologues in the RotS Novel. Dooku doesn't have an intimate knowledge advantage of Maul's fighting style because last time I checked the Star Wars canon, Maul and Dooku hadn't met each other until 19BBY, and they were never Jedi buddies that had thousands of sparring matches together. 

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:After that Dooku would fight Yoda literally seconds after fighting Anakin (who had also exhausted him which has been stated Star Wars Fact Files 103 and 57) and battled Yoda to a near stalemate both with the blade and with the Force. Dooku is vastly above TFM Maul my friends

Anakin's performance against Dooku is one of the biggest inconsistencies in the SW mythos, some sources say that he won easily, but since you subscribe to the view that Anakin gave Dooku a difficult fight as opposed to an easy fight on the basis that Fact Files says that Dooku was already taxed from fighting Anakin, then I'm going to quote Fact Files depiction of their duel:

"Ultimately, it came down to a battle of lightsabers. Dooku drew his weapon and leapt to attack. Yoda pushed back his cloak and called his own lightsaber to his hand. With a shout, Yoda leapt into battle in a dizzying flurry of motion.

Count Dooku used a mix of subtle blade engagements and crashing blows. Yoda used the force of Dooku’s attacks to propel his own leaping, spinning assault. Though Dooku was recognized as a master with a lightsaber, Yoda was simply never where the Count’s blade struck. The first exchange as the combatants paused, blades lock.

Yoda pushed up a gear, shifting Dooku’s blade away and launching a frightening attack, his shrill battle-cry echoing around the chamber. Yoda’s tumbling leaps now changed direct in midair as he rained blows down on a frantically defending Dooku.

Barely showing the stress of battle, Yoda drew Dooku into outstretching and unbalancing himself, before he, once again, locked lightsabers with his former Padawan.

Count Dooku was many things, but he was no fool. Knowing he was bested and facing imminent defeat and death if the conflict continued, Dooku reached out with the Force and crushed the base of a nearby piece of heavy machinery." -- The Official Star Wars Fact File 65.

Dooku was close to death, that's why he shit his pants and ran off. In fact this Fact Files depiction of the fight suggests that Yoda was initially holding back because the third paragraph says "Yoda pushed up a gear," evidently meaning that he was only fighting defensively at first. And what happens after he pushed up a gear? Dooku was "frantically" defending himself, while Yoda "barely showing the stress of battle," and locked blades with Dooku. Result? Dooku distracts Yoda by threatening the lives of Obi-Wan and the Chosen One, while running off to escape death.

Oof. Vader has such a rage amp at seeing his younger, more naïve self that he brutally cuts him down.

Switch canon ROTS Anakin with Legends AOTC Anakin.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@O-Siri: that’s a false equivalent because Vader is superior to Dooku (based on scaling) who bodied AtoC Anakin and Luke is far superior to AotC Anakin. If this was Anakin from RotS then yes that would work but unfortunately it’s not.

 Quotes for Vader improving or declining are all over the place. Some sources place the OT version of Vader as his absolute peak as a dark sider others state he's getting up there in years and not the fighter he once was as a Jedi. Writers can't agree on a consistent narrative, so building a case based on quotes is useless. His fighting style is pretty consistent though so we can compare styles and his feats are still set in stone. I have no reason to believe Luke is superior to Anakin who is more seasoned and has proper Jedi Training. Anakin is a bit of an emotional mess but then Luke wasn't exactly in the right state of mind either when he fought Vader and he still gave more than he got. Vader at least as of the OT can't deal with powerful aggressive duelists like Luke and Anakin is in Luke's range at least going by the basic logic he is just as gifted and more seasoned and better trained.

O-Siri wrote: Quotes for Vader improving or declining are all over the place. Some sources place the OT version of Vader as his absolute peak as a dark sider others state he's getting up there in years and not the fighter he once was as a Jedi. Writers can't agree on a consistent narrative, so building a case based on quotes is useless. His fighting style is pretty consistent though so we can compare styles and his feats are still set in stone. I have no reason to believe Luke is superior to Anakin who is more seasoned and has proper Jedi Training. Anakin is a bit of an emotional mess but then Luke wasn't exactly in the right state of mind either when he fought Vader and he still gave more than he got. Vader at least as of the OT can't deal with powerful aggressive duelists like Luke and Anakin is in Luke's range at least going by the basic logic he is just as gifted and more seasoned and better trained.

Don't forget that quotes for Anakin's performance against Dooku being an easy victory or not are also all over the place.

@O-Siri 

Vader at least as of the OT can't deal with powerful aggressive duelists like Luke

This isn't true. Hindered or not, Vader was facing a rage amped Luke and did very well, then lost in a short duel to a Zonakin style Luke.

O-Siri wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@O-Siri: that’s a false equivalent because Vader is superior to Dooku (based on scaling) who bodied AtoC Anakin and Luke is far superior to AotC Anakin. If this was Anakin from RotS then yes that would work but unfortunately it’s not.

 Quotes for Vader improving or declining are all over the place. Some sources place the OT version of Vader as his absolute peak as a dark sider others state he's getting up there in years and not the fighter he once was as a Jedi. Writers can't agree on a consistent narrative, so building a case based on quotes is useless. His fighting style is pretty consistent though so we can compare styles and his feats are still set in stone. I have no reason to believe Luke is superior to Anakin who is more seasoned and has proper Jedi Training. Anakin is a bit of an emotional mess but then Luke wasn't exactly in the right state of mind either when he fought Vader and he still gave more than he got. Vader at least as of the OT can't deal with powerful aggressive duelists like Luke and Anakin is in Luke's range at least going by the basic logic he is just as gifted and more seasoned and better trained.

Considering we're talking about AotC Anakin, I'm going to have to disagree about him being more seasoned. He definitely had more "proper Jedi training" than Luke, but the two had an entirely different sort of training.

Anakin has spent the past 10 years mostly studying in the Jedi temple along with the other younglings and Padawans. Outside of sparring sessions, I don't believe Anakin prior to AotC has taken part in a single serious lightsaber duel (that I recall), and he's gone on relatively few active missions. Heck, he hasn't even been on a solo mission until AotC, as stated within the movie. 

Luke, on the other hand, has been experiencing active combat for over 4 years. We know for a fact that Jedi develop far faster during active combat missions than they do from studying within the temple, as evidenced by the massive growth of many Jedi during the Clone Wars. Luke's engaged in heated duels against characters like Baron Orman Tagge, a stated master of lightsaber combat, and Kharys, who is said to use a modified Form VII style. Not to mention his three duels against Vader himself. He's also continually fought against forces that held far greater numerical superiority (with less backup than the Clone Wars-era Jedi typically had on their side), with there being many examples of Luke blocking blaster fire from a dozen+ sources (Shadows of the Empire, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, iirc), and defeating over 20+ armed foes during the fight on Jabba's sail barge in RotJ. Luke's combat experience as of RotJ far outweights AotC Anakin's.

So, while Anakin is the more well-rounded Jedi, Luke as of RotJ has far, far more combat experience than AotC Anakin, against superior forces than what AotC Anakin has faced, and with less aid on his side. Not to mention he's been in far, far more life-or-death lightsaber duels, considering Anakin's duel with Dooku is pretty much one of his first. Honestly, I don't see any way to rightly claim AotC Anakin is superior to RotJ Luke as a combatant.

BoD wrote:@O-Siri 

Vader at least as of the OT can't deal with powerful aggressive duelists like Luke

This isn't true. Hindered or not, Vader was facing a rage amped Luke and did very well, then lost in a short duel to a Zonakin style Luke.

Luke using his emotions is irrelevant as Anakin almost always gives into his emotions when facing another dark sider likewise, at least pre-TCW. And even before Vader pulled the Leia card Luke was beating him before he stopped short and 'lowered his defenses'.

Sorry for the late reply, I was going to but it looks like someone else has already said the exact thing I was going to. Regardless Luke was said to be a fully trained Jedi while Anakin was only a Padwan and Luke only kicked Vader down the shaft because he underestimated him, once Vader regained his footing, they were equals. And If Vader can’t deal with aggressive duelists then why was he able to fight a superpowered clone of Maul, the Starkiller clone more years before the ANH which in tern is years before Vader’s prime, or numerous Jedi who used Ataru the “AGGRESSION” form?

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Sorry for the late reply, I was going to but it looks like someone else has already said the exact thing I was going to. Regardless Luke was said to be a fully trained Jedi while Anakin was only a Padwan and Luke only kicked Vader down the shaft because he underestimated him, once Vader regained his footing, they were equals. And If Vader can’t deal with aggressive duelists then why was he able to fight a superpowered clone of Maul, the Starkiller clone more years before the ANH which in tern is years before Vader’s prime, or numerous Jedi who used Ataru the “AGGRESSION” form?

The Maul clone wasn't "superpowered", it had the same capabilities and skill set as TPM Maul based on the comic's intent to show us how Maul and Vader compare in fighting prowess.

How do you know the comic was made to show us that they’re comparable?

The Maul comic should not be brought up in this thread, regardless of intent. The comic as of now is N-canon.

@Jacen: we’re using EU Continuity.

Yes, in Legends continuity it is N-canon.

Jacen wrote:Yes, in Legends continuity it is N-canon.

I only brought it up because the other user thought it was usable.

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:How do you know the comic was made to show us that they’re comparable?

The Resurrection comic was released in September 2001, 2 years after The Phantom Menace came out. Back then, lots of Star Wars fans, especially ones who liked the flashy lightsaber fights in The Phantom Menace, were obsessed with the idea of a Vader vs Maul battle because they're both cool and menacing, and wanted to know how they compare and who would win in a brawl. So the Resurrection comic was published to satisfy these fans expectations:

"Vader vs Maul. The Brawl to settle it all!

64 amazing pagess featuring Darth Vader and Darth Maul in a duel to the death!" -- Star Wars Tales Issue #9: Resurrection.

This is reinforced by the Dark Horse publisher:

"Ladies and Gentlemen! Boys and Girls! Droids and Jawas! Prepare yourselves for the battle of the century! In this corner, weighing in at 220 pounds, the terror from Tatooine, the Dark Lord of the Sith, the former Anakin Skywalker -- DARTH VADER! And in this corner, weighing in at 175 pounds, a killer of Jedi, the Naboo Annihilator, Darth Sidious' #1 apprentice -- DARTH MAUL! Make sure you're here on September 12th, 2001 for the answer to the question on everyone's lips: "Who's tougher? Vader or Maul?" Let the BATTLE begin!

Darth Maul had a screen time of approximately fifteen minutes in EPISODE I, but his fame is hardly over. Maul has, by far, been the character most requested by our readers to further explore. How to do it? Easy. Have him knuckle up against Darth Vader. Maul is vicious, physical, and primal. Vader is focused and calculating...but still has the faintest trace of humanity. Both have succumbed to the Dark Side of the force. Both are ambitious. But Sith law says there's only room for one." -- Dark Horse Publisher's Summary

Star Wars Insider echoes the same:

"It's an uphill battle whenever a storyteller has to live up to advance hype. And what could garner more hype than a knockdown, drag-out brawl between two of the baddest villains to ever menace movie audiences. Writer Ron Marz and illustrator Rick Leonardi deliver in this on-of-a-kind slugfest between the classic trilogy's Darth Vader and the prequels' death machine, Darth Maul." -- Star Wars Insider 83.

The ancient Star Wars website also echoed it:

"Star Wars Tales #9 sets out the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader? Sith doctrine clearly states that there can only be one survivor in this match." -- StarWars.com