SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

• Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  

• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  

• All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
  

Lords of the Sith wrote:VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

Insider 157 wrote:Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way.

• Ahsoka is capable of contending with Vader in a direct way, establishing relativity, if not parity.
  
• Maul is far more powerful than Ahsoka at this time, demonstrated by their respective performances against the Inquisitors. 
  
• Vader in Fallen Order is far weaker than Vader in Rebels, and the relativity of Maul’s inferior in Ahsoka establishes Maul’s direct superiority to JFO Vader. 
  
• Maul has a stylistic advantage in his mobility, which vastly exceeds that of Vader. 
  

IG (Exists) wrote:@The lord of hunger I don't know why, actually.

• Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels
  

• Eighth Brother, Twilight of the Apprentice: Part One.
  

https://youtu.be/Bx2bP5xv2jo?t=108

• Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels
  

• Ibid.
  

• Dave Filoni.
  

• Maul’s edge over Ahsoka is largely minimal, with very little to back it up except a few statements and contextual showings against Inquisitors who’ve never faced a Sith before (save for Vader, who stomped them all at the same time). 
  

• Vader is more powerful than Maul and has greater feats.
  
• Pre-JFO Vader could go toe to toe with the likes of Eeth Koth and fight him evenly.
  
• Despite Ahsoka having advantages like acrobatics and training to fight bigger opponents than her, Vader was still able to outmatch her in a duel. 
  
• Maul lacks these advantages, and would not perform nearly as well against Rebels Vader as a result, especially since he's past his prime.
  
• Rebels Vader may be Vader's prime, but JFO is close enough by feats to beat Maul.
  

BoD wrote:To begin, you yourself have relied heavily on scaling between Ahsoka and Maul, and how it puts him firmly above JFO Vader. I completely disagree. First, let’s examine their fights with the inquisitors:



You point to Maul and his first fight with the Inquisitors, where even while pretending to be weaker than he really is, he still clearly outmatches them. This is true. However, the Inquisitors, even the greatest of the Inquisitors - the Grand Inquisitor - has never fought someone of Maul’s level. He's not even more powerful than season 1 Kanan once he starts believing in himself:


I doubt I need to explain why the GI > the other Inquisitors. However, the Inquisitors at this point were never trained to fight beings of Maul or Ahsoka’s level, both of whom are far above them. It’s also worth noting that the Inquisitors were never trained to fight Sith, so Maul’s fighting technique and mindset would be almost completely foreign to them. 



What’s interesting about the Inquisitors, however, is how they benefit from experience when facing beings a second time. Let’s consider their fight with Ahsoka in season 2, episode 9, where she absolutely tools them despite not having fought lightsaber wielders in about 19 years:

BoD wrote:As Filoni puts it, Ahsoka is in absolutely no danger the entire fight:



I could have had that fight be all 22 minutes because I was so excited about it. She’s never really in jeopardy, Ashoka, in that fight.”

• 
  Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels
  

However, then we compare her fight with them in the finale:


The Inquisitors clearly know what to expect this time, yet they’re still being overpowered by her. This is despite the Inquisitors having the advantage of similar training to her, having been Jedi before their fall and recruitment into the program:
Maul, by contrast was a complete unknown. They didn’t even know if he existed: 




“The Shadow?”

Eighth Brother, Twilight of the Apprentice: Part One


“So, the rumours are true. Darth Maul lives.”
      -    Seventh Sister, ibid. 


While it’s true Maul was holding back, he had knowledge of the Inquisitors whereas they had no knowledge of him. 



Now, as for him killing them easily, that source is clearly lacking context.

BoD wrote:While Maul is superior, he is not superior by any noticeable or considerable margin. 

BoD wrote:Then, let’s look at Vader’s lightsaber skill. Even before JFO, he’s able to go toe to toe with Jedi masters like Eeth Koth, who could go toe to toe with Grievous:


For comparison, the same Grievous was matching Maul in his absolute prime in SoD:

BoD wrote:Now, let’s look again at the Ahsoka vs Vader fight. You point out how Vader would have an advantage over Ahsoka because he’d have knowledge of her style while he’d reinvented his own. This isn’t exactly true:



“Ahsoka has a fighting style that’s similar to where we left her in terms of having the two blades but she’s definitely more in control, she’s less impulsive. It may be less flashy, but its more effective.”

• 
  Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels-
  

“She’s extremely skilled, and I think over the years she’s probably had the opportunity to hone her abilities.”

• Ibid.
  

Ahsoka’s form has changed and matured as she’s gotten older. While at its core there are elements that are the same, the same can be said for Vader, who still has hints of his old fighting style. Ahsoka also had the advantage of Anakin’s training to fight larger opponents:




"It's ironic. Anakin taught her to fight much larger opponents than her. Someone exactly like Darth Vader.

• 
  Dave Filoni.
  

Ahsoka’s competing with Vader is even noted to be in part due to her acrobatic abilities and fighting style, one that Maul does not have:

BoD wrote:Even with these advantages (that Maul doesn’t have), Vader was still able to pull ahead of Ahsoka and outmatch her in a duel of strength, speed, skill and power, and broke through her defences twice after she tagged him with a push and he stopped underestimating her or fought more viciously: 

Lords of the Sith wrote:Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.

• Rebels is Maul’s prime in canon, and he’s shown an ability (via scaling) to at least be comparable to Prime Vader, if not equal.
  
• Said Vader is far, far more powerful than his Fallen Order iteration, therefore meaning that Maul is superior to Fallen Order Vader.
  
• Maul has a stylistic advantage against Vader in his agility and acrobatics.