Re: Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers]

Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:10 pm

@Rohirrim I don't think that statement necessarily has to be interpreted as all or any Jedi/Sith. It's more likely the author is generalising, and the quote can easily be interpreted as high level Jedi/Sith being better than them, but not randoms, which fits with the notion that they're less refined Inquisitors.

Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:13 pm

@DC77 (Reborn) Could be, fair enough.

Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:25 pm

OT: Rey takes round 1, Anakin round 2.

Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:31 am

Not really no.

They fought back and forth and Dooku repeatedly used the Force to gain any sort of edge. It was pretty even.

Slaughtering the KOR in a matter of seconds is meh? The same KOR who have been stated to be Inquisitor level, with the only difference being a disparity in refinement, or so the quote seems to indicate.

So the KoR could be Grand Inquisitor level, Second Sister/Seventh Sister level, Fifth Brother level, Ninth Sister level...or the Tenth Brother, who was killed by a small squad of Clones despite having the help of the Sixth Brother and Ninth Sister. It's vague as hell and hardly the basis for an argument.

Furthermore, Ren's accolades and general hype place him at a pretty high level circa TROS, a level I don't think mid-TCW Anakin can match.

Such as...?

Fighting defensively doesn't automatically mean it wasn't his intention to kill her, you'd get pretty zany results if you applied that logic to every engagement in the mythos. At the final part of the duel he blatantly raises his saber to strike her down, and as you yourself noted, would have ended her life had it not been for Leia's timely intervention. Rey might not be = to Ren, but she's close, as indicated by their lengthy duel. KJ and RGR are right, you're being far too liberal with the word "stomp". Ren only begins to "stomp" his adversary once her stamina starts flagging.

She's attacking the entire fight while he spends most of it either dodging or parrying/blocking, which is not Ren's M.O. He even says he's not going to kill her before this, promising her that he'll turn her to the dark side. He even reiterates this in the throne room.

Proof? Pretty sure that never happened.

Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers] - Page 2 Screen58

Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers] - Page 2 Screen60

Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers] - Page 2 Screen59

Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers] - Page 2 Screen61

Will post clearer images when I can get a better version, so will put a pin in this point for now.

Isn't this the case for 90% of character's victories throughout the mythos? A power advantage? Not sure why Ren's is being taken as some ridiculously unfair edge.

Fair point.

Citation needed for them beating Kenobi.

Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers] - Page 2 AngryWearyCapybara-max-1mb

It says they need to be "tamed", which I don't think indicates further training as a requirement, but rather something along the lines of further honing and refining for their already Inquisitor level abilities, if we're arguing in the nature of good faith.

Not going to argue what the quote refers to and instead point to how that could mean they're as skilled as the Grand Inquisitor, Second Sister or Seventh Sister (unlikely), or be as rough and unskilled as the Ninth Sister and Tenth Brother, with the former even openly admitting that saber combat isn't her strength.

Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:19 am

I refuse to read any of this thread I just want you to know after not seeing the movie and assuming rey busted a planet or some kriff, Nyax still curbstomps her harder than luke vs jacen, don't tag me I won't respond, but Nyax wins period

Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:26 am

No point in commenting, lel.

Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:32 am

Another fantastic contribution EC, thanks!

Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:34 am

Another poor attempt at baiting HP, thanks!

Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:44 am

The Apprentice wrote:Another fantastic contribution EC, thanks!

Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:26 pm

@BreakOfDawn FWIW, from the Visual Dictionary:

Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers] - Page 2 Blades10

Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:38 pm

@Rohirrim Thanks.

Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:39 pm

Saying Kylo disposing of the Knights of Ren is impressive is lunacy. Even if they are all Grand Inquisitor level it's not like Anakin couldn't do the same with less effort.

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:31 pm

I'll get back to this along with our other debates at some point BOD.

Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:49 am

@BreakOfDawn: Let's catch up shall we darling:

They fought back and forth and Dooku repeatedly used the Force to gain any sort of edge. It was pretty even.

Dooku wasn't trying to kill or even hurt Anakin, but escort Palpatine away, yet still effortlessly negates most of Anakin's hyper aggressive assault while barely striking back. Not sure how that shows parity.

So the KoR could be Grand Inquisitor level, Second Sister/Seventh Sister level, Fifth Brother level, Ninth Sister level...or the Tenth Brother, who was killed by a small squad of Clones despite having the help of the Sixth Brother and Ninth Sister. It's vague as hell and hardly the basis for an argument.

Consider the terminology. "Perfect" implies they're probably a lot better than the lowest possible Inquisitor.

Such as...?

Kylo's portrayed as having the potential to be the next Vader... with Snoke seeming to think his only limitation is that of internal conflict, something Kylo eradicates during TLJ. Given this premise, it appears feasible Kylo actualised that potential circa TROS, and his contrasting feats in TLJ and TROS certainly support that notion (Compare him getting beat by 3 Praetorians to slaughtering the KOR in 10 seconds flat).

She's attacking the entire fight while he spends most of it either dodging or parrying/blocking, which is not Ren's M.O.

Because he's trying to wear her out... which he does, by which point he goes on the offensive with the intent to kill and beats her down. The fact that he waits the entire fight before going on the attack actually speaks to parity between the two combatants, given he's only confident he can overwhelm her once she's totally drained of energy lol, which takes several minutes of even combat.

He even says he's not going to kill her before this, promising her that he'll turn her to the dark side. He even reiterates this in the throne room.

Ignoring the fact that he clearly attempts to strike her down.

Will post clearer images when I can get a better version, so will put a pin in this point for now.

Yeah, too blury to make a judgement call. As for the quote @Rohirrim posted, it does note that a cetain amount of pressure is required, a level of pressure it's plausible Kylo did not reach.

As far as Anakin's performance goes it's not that much better than Kenobi's, and we already know he's better regardless so it feels like a non feat compared to what I've presented for Kylo.

Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:56 am

@DC77 (Reborn)

Let's catch up shall we darling:

Rey vs Anakin Skywalker [Spoilers] - Page 2 Giphy

Dooku wasn't trying to kill or even hurt Anakin, but escort Palpatine away, yet still effortlessly negates most of Anakin's hyper aggressive assault while barel strikung back. Not sure how that shows parity.

No, he repeatedly uses the Force to gain any sort of edge in the duel. First with the cutlery, then blasting the chair back, then pushing Anakin again when he gets close, and then using a combination of lightning and a Force push after Anakin breaks through his defences and has him pinned on the ground.

For reference, their first fight on Naboo left an enraged Dooku pretty tired (breathing heavily) despite facing a tiring and hurt Anakin with the help of lanterns and four magnaguards.

Consider the terminology. "Perfect" implies they're probably a lot better than the lowest possible Inquisitor.

Meaningless. Being "perfect stock" for an inquisitor puts you anywhere around above-padawan level at your lowest and knight level at highest. It's not specified, so it more than likely refers to < Second/Seventh Sister level, and per feats it obviously doesn't refer to GI level.

Kylo's portrayed as having the potential to be the next Vader...

No, he's said to have that potential by Snoke because Snoke knows Ren still idolises Vader at this point. Snoke has no idea what Vader's power was like.

with Snoke seeming to think his only limitation is that of internal conflict, something Kylo eradicates during TLJ.

Clearly not, considering TROS.

Given this premise, it appears feasible Kylo actualised that potential circa TROS,

No evidence for this potential beyond the words of a clone with no knowledge of Vader's power.

and his contrasting feats in TLJ and TROS certainly support that notion (Compare him getting beat by 3 Praetorians to slaughtering the KOR in 10 seconds flat).

Again, the Praetorians had weapons capable of resisting a lightsaber and are Snoke's equivalent of the Imperial royal guards, whereas the KoR's weapons are confirmed to be able to be cut through with a lightsaber and have almost no feats whatsoever. Hardly a fair comparison.

Because he's trying to wear her out... which he does, by which point he goes on the offensive with the intent to kill and beats her down. The fact that he waits the entire fight before going on the attack actually speaks to parity between the two combatants, given he's only confident he can overwhelm her once she's totally drained of energy lol, which takes several minutes of even combat.

Except she wasn't totally drained of energy. He walks out of the wave and finally has enough. At this point, he quickly gains the advantage and overpowers her. Remember that Ren's entire shtick here was showing her the darkness within herself. Of course he's not going to beat her down before she starts showing it, only when he's had enough of the fight.

Ignoring the fact that he clearly attempts to strike her down.

...Like Vader trying to strike ESB Luke down despite being confirmed by every source to have no intention of killing him? Or Yoda attempting to land a strike on Ahsoka with a fully powered lightsaber during a sparring session and while teaching her? Or Anakin aiming a powerful overhead strike at corrupted Ahsoka despite knowing he's far stronger than her and could kill her if she weren't strong enough to stop it?

It's thematic tension. It's meaningless when we know he had no intention of going through with it.

Also, for someone who was "exhausted", she recovered pretty damn quickly when Ren dropped his lightsaber (space of a few seconds between disarming Rey and this), was able to heal him from what would have been a fatal wound and thus required huge amounts of energy, and then casually leave.

As far as Anakin's performance goes it's not that much better than Kenobi's,

He lasts a fair few seconds more against Zygeerians with obvious knowledge of how to take down Jedi and with unfamiliar weapons.

and we already know he's better regardless

Than Obi-Wan?

so it feels like a non feat compared to what I've presented for Kylo.

...Obi-Wan at this point was > Grievous and has some great showings. It's hardly a non-feat.

Tue May 12, 2020 8:39 pm

@BoD:

No, he repeatedly uses the Force to gain any sort of edge in the duel. First with the cutlery, then blasting the chair back, then pushing Anakin again when he gets close, and then using a combination of lightning and a Force push after Anakin breaks through his defences and has him pinned on the ground.

Again, because he wasn't there for Anakin, he was there for the chancellor. He was playing a defensive game for basically the whole fight and thus his guard was destined to break eventually. Doesn't change the fact that he still blocked Anakin's every blow without much effort. On top of that, using the force to gain an advantage is something any force sensitive fighter can do in any fight. It's not like Dooku using it is some sort of underhand tactic, it just demonstrates his vastly superior skill and mastery.

Meaningless. Being "perfect stock" for an inquisitor puts you anywhere around above-padawan level at your lowest and knight level at highest. It's not specified, so it more than likely refers to < Second/Seventh Sister level, and per feats it obviously doesn't refer to GI level.

Strawman, I never claimed it made them GI level, just that it puts them above the lowest possible Inquisitor. And I'm not sure how you can just handwave them being "perfect stock", when its significance is so obvious. They're such great stock that any Inquisitor could beat them, even the worst possible one? That totally follows.

No, he's said to have that potential by Snoke because Snoke knows Ren still idolises Vader at this point.

Doesn't matter given not only does Snoke have no reason to lie, but his assessment is corroborated by Luke's anyway.

Snoke has no idea what Vader's power was like.

A creation of Palpatine in possession of vast knowledge of the Empire doesn't know how powerful Vader was? That's some suspect insight.

Clearly not, considering TROS.

Uh, did you watch the film? Kylo expresses no real inner conflict until both his mother's death, and him being taken to the brink (Metaphorically and literally), merely some minor regret over Han's death.

Except she wasn't totally drained of energy.

You can quite clearly see her energy flagging lol.

He walks out of the wave and finally has enough. At this point, he quickly gains the advantage and overpowers her. Remember that Ren's entire shtick here was showing her the darkness within herself. Of course he's not going to beat her down before she starts showing it, only when he's had enough of the fight.

This is all headcanon and indicated nowhere. Fights alter and change as they progress based on reduced energy levels and such. That doesn't mean somebody is holding back and only gets serious once they go on the offensive. You can apply that logic to any fight, including one's where it's obviously not the case. That Ren's desire is to turn her to the darkness doesn't change that fact, especially given there's no specific moment in the fight where she ever ups the intensity and gives Ren an excuse to end it, like you claim.

It's thematic tension. It's meaningless when we know he had no intention of going through with it.

This is baseless. And none of the examples you cited have the opponent helpless with nowhere to move, completely drained of energy and without a weapon, relying on external circumstance to survive.

Also, for someone who was "exhausted", she recovered pretty damn quickly when Ren dropped his lightsaber (space of a few seconds between disarming Rey and this), was able to heal him from what would have been a fatal wound and thus required huge amounts of energy, and then casually leave.

She's already shown she can heal without effort and walking off/stabbing a distracted Kylo aren't particularly exerting tasks. I said she was too exhausted to fight (Which requires far more energy), not any of the above.

Than Obi-Wan?

Yes.

...Obi-Wan at this point was > Grievous and has some great showings. It's hardly a non-feat.

Elaborate on anything he has that's above Kylo. Being worse than Grievous as an overall combatant, who is very limited himself won't cut it.

Thu May 14, 2020 11:43 am

Scenario 1: assuming this is s6 Anakin and not S7, Rey wins

Scenario 2: unsure

Sun May 17, 2020 1:26 pm

Anakin stomps in both rounds.