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ILS

The State of Krayt 2019 Empty The State of Krayt 2019

on Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:57 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
This thread contains some of me and Azronger's recent Krayt arguments. My stuff on Force mechanics, Beyond Shadows, Abeloth and so on, due to its impromptu nature and length concerns, I've decided to put into its own thread.

Feats and Scaling

1. A'Sharad Hett vs Obi-Wan Kenobi
2. Krayt vs Cade Skywalker, compared to Darth Sidious vs Darth Maul
3. Prophetic Embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force
4. Sith Trooper Feat

Will hyperlink to a post here when it is completed.

@Moderators: would kindly appreciate if any posts not made by me are deleted until I am finished posting. @Slorg: ...oh who am I kidding? The State of Krayt 2019 4037459623

@DarthAnt66
@Azronger


Last edited by ILS on Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:55 pm; edited 4 times in total
ILS
ILS

The State of Krayt 2019 Empty Re: The State of Krayt 2019

on Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:00 pm

Krayt vs Cade Skywalker, compared to Darth Sidious vs Darth Maul

Krayt vs Sidious - Whose Feat is better?


If you operate on the premise that TCW Sheev could have ragdolled Maul casually whenever he wanted to, without needing a defensive lapse, then of course, Sidious' performance seems better than Krayt's vs Cade, and that was my belief for quite some time. However, according to Shadow Conspiracy, Sidious actually needed to create an opening just to Force blast and concuss Maul.

Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

In pure saber combat, him and Savage were doing quite well - Sidious' mastery of the Force made a world of difference.
TCW Magazine wrote:"Although the brothers initially gained the upper hand, Sidious proved too powerful, and impaled Opress in the chest with his lightsaber."
The above makes sense. Watch the fight purely up until the point where Sidious TK blasts Maul into a wall - it seems obvious that the brothers were doing well and forced him to use telekinesis to separate them.
https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=130

Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul saw that Savage was startled by the seemingly frail man’s enormous strength. Maul stared at his Master’s face. He saw the strain as Sidious called upon the Force to keep the brothers at bay. But there was something else there, too—a terrible pleasure. Sidious began to grin.
Shadow Conspiracy asserts that Sidious strained under their combined strength, and that he was giving ground to their ferocious strikes - not to say that Sidious was necessarily going to lose, but the point is, the brothers are doing far better here than they are usually given credit for. That's all.

So if we disregard the idea of Sidious ragdolling whenever he feels like it (which doesn't seem to be supported anywhere at this point), then what we're left with is Krayt two-panel stomping Cade while holding back at least as much as Sidious did with Maul... the fact is you would need to do an extreme amount of hairsplitting to try and argue that Sidious' performance was leagues better than Krayt's, at the very least, the two were comparable. But, as I am inclined to believe based on how Krayt won more easily against a naturally more potent enemy who "had a new mastery of the Force", it actually seems like Krayt's fight was a better feat.

In Depth Breakdown


No source states that Sidious disarmed Maul "effortlessly". In the episode, Sidious visually strains to overpower Maul, and in the novel, he "flies" at Maul, ramps up his speed immensely, and Maul meets his strikes that are "too many to count, and then even more than that" before he is disarmed.
Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

The "toying" quote, which to my knowledge is just one quote, refers to when he was ragdolling him at the end, once the fight had ended. Most quotes suggest that Sheev had the advantage throughout, but none suggest he could ragdoll, or end the fight whenever he wanted to, or was toying with them the whole time. Shadow Conspiracy contradicts that several times, and we have one TCW magazine quote which suggests the brothers had an initial advantage, which is some counter evidence to the quotes saying Sheev always had the advantage.

Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul saw that Savage was startled by the seemingly frail man’s enormous strength. Maul stared at his Master’s face. He saw the strain as Sidious called upon the Force to keep the brothers at bay. But there was something else there, too—a terrible pleasure. Sidious began to grin.
So for the above quote, it shows that Sidious straining and putting effort into the fight is not mutually exclusive from him enjoying the fight, any more than him experiencing "lascivious pain" against Oneness Galen Marek means he defeated him no effort whatsoever. Sidious enjoys pain and fighting, he even cackled during the fight of his life with Yoda. So that deals with Filoni's quote that Sidious was "enjoying" himself. I also underlined the part where Savage shows how surprised he is at how strong Sidious, which ties in later...

Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.
Just to reinforce the idea that Sidious is not screwing around here: Sidious was always willing to kill Maul during his training if he didn't measure up, and we even have one instance on Hypori where Sidious goaded Maul into a Force rage. And in that fight, Maul "nearly bested"/"nearly killed" Sidious. Now, Sidious was only fighting defensively there, but the point is, the Sidious Maul is fighting in Shadow Conspiracy is fighting on a totally different level (not power-wise, but in terms of him trying to kill Maul) than he had ever experienced before. I think this flies in the face of Sidious "toying" with Maul.

Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.
So, Sidious manufactured a small gap, a small overextension in Maul's defence, and then "pounced" on it to land a Force blast. That does not exactly scream to me that he was "toying" with the brothers and could TK them at will. Moreover, if Maul had not been slammed into a wall, but had fallen through open air until the momentum wore off, he would not have been stunned and could have kept fighting - Sidious did not stun him with the mere power of his Force push. He used a combination of tactics, skill and the environment to TK Maul out of the duel.

Savage knew the dangers of facing the Sith Lord alone, and pressed his attack before Sidious draw his hand back from Force-shoving Maul into the wall. Teeth bared, Savage windmilled his double saber, hoping to disarm Sidious or force him to give ground. If he did, that would allow the yellow-and-black Zabrak to follow his initial attack with a lightning-quick thrust that would penetrate Sidious’s defenses and wound or even kill him.
Maul tried to shake off his attack, rocketing up from the floor. Sidious neatly side-stepped Savage’s assault, drawing back as the massive Zabrak raised his double-bladed saber high to try to pummel him with it. Savage didn’t think Sidious was fast enough to take advantage of the brief opening in his defenses, but he was wrong.
Even Savage is quite underrated here. Savage had to fight Sidious alone for a spell, and according to Shadow Conspiracy, he tried to break through a brief opening in Sidious' defence after he blasted Maul - the problem is, Savage underestimated how fast Sidious is. And this makes sense, because unlike Maul, he has never fought anyone on this tier before. Maul has fought Sidious countless times, and still thinks he is "unknowable" according to Death Sentence, but nevertheless he has some measure of his master's power. Savage, as shown at the start when he was shocked at his strength, has no idea what to expect from Sidious, he's never fought on this level before. So Sidious actually capitalised on a tactical error on Savage's part, which is actually forgivable for Savage because he was doing his best to take the initiative in a situation where he was totally out of his depth - what other option did he have than to seize the advantage when he knows he's fighting a superior opponent?

According to Gillard, Sidious' style revolves around "suckering" the opponent in, letting them think they have the advantage and then punishing them for it. That's basically all that happened here - Savage was beaten by a sheer skill disparity. So when Filoni says Savage put up a "better fight" than Mace's Jedi strike team, I take that quite literally - I don't think Sidious can just blitz Savage.

The State of Krayt 2019 A9rvUWKEVq1uAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC

Then we have this from one of the TCW magazines. Now, while there's certainly more pro-Sidious quotes, I think you can strike a balance between the two. We saw at the start of the fight Maul is pushing Sidious back down a narrow corridor before Sidious drags the brothers down from the balcony. So to me, it may have seemed like the brothers had the upper hand, but really Sidious purposely gave ground and was still in full control of the fight. I don't think he was in much danger of losing...

...but none of that even comes close to saying Sidious "toyed" with them or could ragdoll them at will. I think in large part due to Silver's blog and a lot of chinese whispers over the years we have built up an embellished perception of what actually happened in this fight. Sidious was winning, he was in control, he was enjoying himself - but he was still in a serious fight, he was still there to kill his "rivals", and it's not at all evident he could end the fight whenever he wanted.

Also: If you are going to mention that Cade and Krayt's duel has an off-panel segment, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the cutaway between Sidious holding the brother's blades at bay to Sidious being pushed down a corridor by Maul.
https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=130

Some Common Complaints - Put To Rest

To paraphrase some much-used quotes that describe the duel:

"No one can compete with him"

Again, this doesn't require that he can ragdoll Maul or Savage whenever he pleases. Moreover, I'm not aware of why we should take Filoni 100% literally here. I think he means Sidious was not going to lose this fight, but Maul and Savage were certainly competing, and Yoda and Mace Windu are other examples of people who can compete with Sidious.

"nobody was really going to be able to touch him"

I mean, Maul did touch him, as did Savage, but to address the spirit of the statement - being a clear, decisive victor =/= ragdolling your opponents at will.

He puts his lightsabers away "at the end of the fight"... so let's look at that scene again:

https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=257

So, after a brief exchange where Sidious and Maul both land kicks, they smash into each other in a blade lock. Sidious audibly strains as he overpowers Maul and disarms him. Maul is on his knees panting, looking away - clearly defeated. Then Sidious ragdolls him.

Sidious did not "ragdoll a rage amped Maul" - he ragdolled a defeated, floored Maul who had no defences prepared.

The State of Krayt 2019 Screen13
The State of Krayt 2019 Screen15 The State of Krayt 2019 Screen14

Here's the confusion: this is not that different from when in Sith Hunters Maul chokes Kenobi half to death. Except in that case Kenobi is ready with his lightsaber ignited... but none of us, even I, really accept that Maul can destroy Kenobi with TK whenever he wants. Kenobi is only human, so we'll say he left himself open and Maul took advantage of it. The narrative idea that Maul can destroy Kenobi seems unlikely because there's plenty of times where that would have seemed useful for Maul, where it didn't happen.

In contrast, narratively, it's much more believable that Sidious can destroy Maul that way, even though the evidence for it is even more flaky than Maul destroying Kenobi. And Filoni seems to buy into and to some extent perpetuate that narrative by implying and adding things to the duel which aren't really there. "Nobody can touch Sidious", well not literally. "He puts his lightsabers away and says I'm done with this", yes, because the fight was done. "He was enjoying himself, too", yes, he was, and he was also being strained according to both versions of the fight.

The narrative is that Maul is in a hopeless fight against someone leagues more powerful than him, but the idea that Sidious can ragdoll Maul at will is merely an appendage to that narrative. It's not actually supported by anything. The trouble is, it's much easier to believe certain ideas, even if the evidence is weak, if it fits the narrative. And the problem with narratives (especially on youtube versus debating, where it's almost 95% conjecture), is that you can take a narrative and run away with it and add pieces to it which were never there.

Krayt vs Cade In Comparison


So with that in mind... look at Krayt vs Cade.

The State of Krayt 2019 NjQxWUc
The State of Krayt 2019 YPhGk2H

That's... one of the shortest fights in Star Wars. In the context of Legacy, and John Ostrander's other series Republic and Dawn of the Jedi, that is barely worth calling a fight - most of his serious duels last between 3-7 pages or even more. This was in the climatic final comic issue of the entire run, so the excuse that Cade was giving Krayt hell off-panel seems to be quite silly - why would they leave the most important part of the duel off-panel, when Ostrander has never done that in the dozens+ of other duels he has written? They have 20 clean pages to show us Cade giving Krayt hell, instead they gave us barely a page and a half. And Krayt did not want to kill Cade, in fact, he specifically wanted to transform him into a dark side vassal so that he could one day take him over and extend his life. And the way Krayt won - by reaching out awkwardly and palming Cade's chest - is actually extremely dangerous tactically. I remember back in the day when I would argue that Krayt could end fights easily with Dark Transfer, people would always reply "Yeah, but that's only if he doesn't get his hand cut off trying to use it!" - well, that's a fair point, because a lightsaber gives you an extra metre of range, and Krayt being a Jar'kai user, could have used his second saber to cut Cade in half there - but he didn't even use his second saber, something he has never done before, even against Wyyrlok or the fodder Imperial Knights.

So yeah... not sure what else there is to say. I've not seen any counter arguments to this which are satisfying, so I don't see a better place for Krayt than RotS Sidious+ tier. Even if Sidious has more natural power than Krayt, Sidious was pre-prime by many decades in RotS, whereas Krayt was a dark side master who has literally been to hell and back a few times with over 100+ years of experience. It's not inconceivable that he is better than Sidious very early in his career. Same with Yoda - Yoda might naturally have more midichlorians than Krayt, but according to Dooku in Dark Rendezvous, Yoda could be far more powerful when using the dark side - he actually thought Yoda would "annihilate" Sidious if he used the dark side. And, Yoda was near the end of his life span, and past his prime in RotS. Krayt, on the other hand, had used Dark Transfer to fully maximise his physical potential (he even regrew a missing arm), and is completely steeped in the dark side, so it's not as if there is a hard and fast rule that post-prime, non Sith Yoda is above every maxed-out dark sider like Krayt.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

The State of Krayt 2019 Empty Re: The State of Krayt 2019

on Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:28 pm
sorry to comment if ur still not done, but i always love reading these. i for one agree with almost everything. sidious did clearly 'struggle' with enrage maul, and maul with savage's help. the only thing he completely beats them at is his control and power in the force. when not using his full power, maul had a clear advantage, meaning that not even a big skill advantage is at play here.

i also personally put reborn krayt above FOTJ krayt, but i do know a lot of people dont.
ILS
ILS

The State of Krayt 2019 Empty Re: The State of Krayt 2019

on Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:01 pm
The following arguments are a collaboration between myself and Azronger, although in truth I owe a large amount of the theory behind these ideas - he gave me the push needed to accept what at first seemed outlandish.

Prophetic Embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force

Darth Krayt was the most powerful - and certainly the most successful and influential - Sith since the days of Darth Sidious. He is a manifestation, a living embodiment of the dark side. His wide-scale success in achieving his vision of a One Sith Order and ruling the galaxy is a direct reflection of his power, just as Sidious' success was a reflection of his power.

The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--The Complete Visual Dictionary

The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

For that reason he understood just how dangerous this new Sith Lord was. He hadn't had a sense of that danger until he had fought Dooku on Geonosis. Then he understood. In self-exile for a thousand years, the Sith had not merely been waiting for an appropriate time to reemerge and exact revenge, but for the birth of one strong enough to embrace the dark side fully and become its dedicated instrument.

This was Sidious: powerful enough to hide in plain sight. Powerful enough to instruct his apprentice, Dooku, to expose him, and still remain hidden from the Jedi. And as arrogant as the Jedi. Convinced that his way was the one and only way.

--Labyrinth of Evil

In The Tenebrous Way, Tenebrous predicts the coming of the "One Sith" - Darth Krayt.

While still merely an apprentice, his analysis had shown him the inevitable end of the Banite Sith and its preposterous Rule of Two. His calculations plainly indicated the coming of a shadow so vast it would darken the galaxy entirelyso vast it would mark the end of both Jedi and Sith as the universe had known them heretofore. The rise of the shadow would be the end of history itself.

Tenebrous had not the slightest doubt that the entire galaxy would measure time according to its arrival. Events would be marked by how long they had preceded the shadow, or how long after it they followed.

Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system, and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice—or a Jedi Order—to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!

A heady prospect, with only a single drawback: Tenebrous was not to be that Sith Lord. His own death was clearly foretold, entirely inevitable, and it would precede the shadow by decades.



[...]

Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment, Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time—to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself only visible as a smear of darkness...

A shadow!

--The Tenebrous Way

The Tenebrous Way came out in Dec 2011, shortly after Legacy: War had just wrapped up in May 2011. It is clear that Stover, having seen how Legacy tied up recently, in preparation for writing this short story decided to incorporate Krayt's One Sith into Tenebrous' calculation of the future. In history, when we are trying to piece together names, dates and places, to determine if when two writers refer to the same name whether it is a coincidence or in fact a common reference, one of the first things we look at it is - do the dates match up. In this case, with Stover releasing his story which refers to the "One Sith"  mere months after Legacy: War tied up, the connection is obvious.

Breakdown Of Tenebrous' Calculation

The "Shadow" which would "mark the end" of the Rule of Two and "darken the galaxy" is plainly Sidious - he is referred to as a "Shadow" and is associated with the "shroud" which would "darken" the galaxy across dozens of EU works, and is directly tied to the cosmic haze the Jedi were in during the PT.

The "Shadow" (Sidious) would "mark the rise" of "what would become known as the "One Sith." ". The Shadow, will darken the galaxy, mark the end of (not bring about, but mark the end of) the Rule or Two and the rise of what would [later] become known as the "One Sith." - this is a clear bifurcation between the Shadow and the One Sith. They are two different entities, the Shadow preceding the One Sith.

It's also said that Tenebrous' death would precede the Shadow (Sidious) by decades, which is true, and that people would mark time according to the Shadow's coming, which can only be a vague allusion to the BBY dating system.

Darth Krayt's One Sith Order, as well as the fact he is the "One Sith" whose will is made manifest through that Order, is a manifestation of the Banite Rule of Two coming to an end. It is true that Sidious had plans to institute his "Rule of One", however, I think it's clear that the evidence supports the interpretation that Tenebrous is referring to Krayt as the "One Sith", the namesake he gave to his Order and new Sith philosophy.

Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice—or a Jedi Order—to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!

Everything Stover says about the Shadow lines up with Sidious: he comes within decades of Tenebrous' death, darkens the galaxy, marks the end of the Rule of Two, and establishes a new dating system - and what follows the Shadow is a One Sith, both an order and a Sith Lord who will take and hold the galaxy without an apprentice. Both chronologically and in terms of what happened, this matches up perfectly with Sheev and Krayt.

Most importantly it is noted that it is because one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he could do this. Stover also deliberately capitalizes the "One Sith" which is a reference the Sith Order (opposed to "one Sith" which would refer to a being).

Krayt-Specific Quotes


The Dark Stranger on the Throne of Balance


Firstly, Caedus was having visions of the future, however, Luke interfered with these visions by meditating and focusing on Caedus so intently that he forced his way into Caedus' visions, effectively altering them - Luke notes that this isn't strictly true as the future is always in motion, but regardless.
Legacy of the Force: Invincible wrote:"That's right," Luke said. "He would have realized that I'm using visions of the future to plot strategy, and he would have started to grow suspicious of what he was seeing."

Leia's brow shot up. "You're altering Caedus's visions?"

"It's more like jamming," Luke said. "When I meditate on the future, I'm focusing so hard on Caedus that when he looks into the future, I keep showing up."

"Sounds like altering to me," Han said. "If you were just jamming, Caedus would know it. But you're fixing it so he sees you instead of the real future."

"Not exactly," Luke said. "Remember, the future is always in motion. Caedus sees what might happen-if I were there instead of Jaina."

Among these visions was Luke taking up residence at Caedus' throne.
Legacy of the Force: Invincible wrote:Caedus's heart began to pound not with fear, but with excitement. His visions of late had been filled with his uncle's face-Luke Skywalker attacking him here on Nickel One, Luke firing on him from one of Fett's Bes'uliike, Luke sitting on Caedus's throne, claiming the New Empire as his own. Had he-Lord Caedus-finally put an end to those visions-finally ruled out the possibility of those futures becoming the future?

Luke and Caedus both began to have a recurring dream: a dark man. This dark man was at first shrouded to Luke, but when Caedus killed Mara, the dark man became Caedus. The Mind Walkers stated that Caedus had seen a similar "dark coming"
Fate of the Jedi: Abyss wrote:The woman stopped and smiled back over her shoulder. "Very good, Master Skywalker. He saw something else-something dark coming that he believed only he could stop."

Recalling the visions he had experienced in the opening days of the last civil war, Luke started to feel sick and sour inside. In his dreams, he had seen a mysterious dark man with a shrouded face-a face that had remained shrouded until Jacen killed Mara and became the dark man, the Sith Lord Darth Caedus.

And this was where it had begun, where Jacen had taken that first tentative step into the shadows.

Luke shook his head, silently raging at the tragedy, wondering how he had missed the hubris that had led Jacen to such a mistake-how he could have allowed a young man, a victim of Yuuzhan Vong torture and Sith brainwashing, to feel that the weight of the galaxy rested on his shoulders alone.

"I should never have let him go."

Now as we know, Luke had been messing with Caedus, making him believe he was the dark man - and we know that Luke believed Caedus was the dark man because he killed Mara and became a Sith Lord. But, as we know... these are illusions fabricated by their ignorance.

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss wrote:"I don't understand," Luke said, turning to Ryontarr. "Why would Jacen be troubled by a vision of his daughter assuming her throne?"

"Because that's not what he saw." It was the Givin, Feryl, who rasped this answer. "He saw a dark man in dark armor, sitting on a golden throne and surrounded by acolytes in dark robes."

Luke went cold inside. "A dark man?" he asked, thinking of the visions of the dark man he had experienced as Jacen was rising to become a Sith Lord. "Himself?"

Ryontarr scowled over at Luke. "I doubt a vision of his own future would have sent him fleeing back to the galaxy," he said. "It had to be someone else's face your nephew saw."

A terrible thought occurred to Luke, as painful as a vibrodagger to the gut and just as frightening. "Me?"

Ryontarr shrugged. "Who can say?"

"We didn't see the face behind the mask,"
Feryl added. "But Jacen did, and he turned as pale as my exoskeleton."

So Jacen saw the face behind the dark mask... is it not obvious who he is referring to? The dark man in armor surrounded by robed acolytes on a golden throne?
The State of Krayt 2019 Asharad-hett-becomes-darth-krayt-4
The State of Krayt 2019 New-sith-order

It can be none other than Krayt in his Yuuzhan Vong armor sitting down on the golden Imperial throne in 100 years time. But lets carry on.. getting into the stuff about Caedus altering the current of time.
Fate of the Jedi: Vortex wrote: "I know that you are playing with the White Current,"Akanah countered. "I know that your Jedi arrogance is what cost you your wife and your two nephews."

"My Jedi arrogance?" Luke fought to keep his emotions under control. The Akanah he remembered would never hurt him out of spite; if she was saying such things, it was either because she had changed, or because she believed them and thought he needed to hear the truth. "We've made some mistakes, yes-I have made mistakes. But the Jedi aren't like the Fallanassi. We don't hide from the galaxy, we embrace it and we live in it- and that means we must sometimes fight to defend it."

"To defend it, or control it?" Akanah asked, speaking softly. She took his arm and started toward the Shadow again. "The Jedi have lost their way -you have let them lose their way, Luke. First, they convince themselves that they are beyond light and dark-"

"That was never Jedi canon," Luke said. "A Sith infiltrator attempted to corrupt our beliefs."

"And she succeeded, did she not?" Akanah asked. "Consider the evidence. A Jedi Knight has assumed the throne of the Hapes Consortium. Jacen Solo took it upon himself to change the flow of the Current. And now a Jedi Grand Master has joined forces with the Sith. If that is not corruption, I have no understanding of the term."

Luke fell silent, more surprised by the accusations than hurt by them. Akanah had no doubt learned about the Sith alliance from Abeloth herself. But how she had concluded that Jacen had wanted to change the future, he had no idea. Luke himself had come to that realization only gradually, after retracing his nephews journey with the Mind Walkers and speaking with his spirit in the Lake of Apparitions. The only reasonable explanation was, again, Abeloth herself.

[...]

"I am saying the Current is not ours to control, "Akanah replied. "We cannot know where it will carry us, or what turns it may take getting us there. We can only trust to its purpose and not try to bend it to ours."

"And you believe that's what Jacen was doing," Luke said, once again probing for the source of her knowledge. "Trying to change something in the future?"

"No, I am convinced he did change something." Akanah waved Luke toward the Shadow's open hatch. "And that is why I must ask you to go and leave the ancient one here with us. Perhaps, with our help, she will be able to undo the damage."

An icy lump formed in Luke's stomach. "Undo it?" He wanted to ask Akanah if she had lost her mind, but considering who she had just admitted the Fallanassi were sheltering, he was not sure he wanted to know the answer. "How?"

"Why do you ask questions when you already know the answer?"

Luke understood, of course. Abeloth had promised to return the Current to its original course. Perhaps such a thing was even possible-but that did not make it a good idea. Jacen had looked into the Pool of Knowledge and had a Force vision of a dark man in dark armor, sitting on a golden throne surrounded by acolytes in dark robes. But when Luke had looked, two years after Jacen had become Darth Caedus and been killed, his vision had been of Jacen's daughter, Allana, standing next to a white throne and surrounded by friends of all species. If that was the change Abeloth had promised to undo, Luke wanted no part of it.

Instead of ascending the Shadow's ramp, Luke said, "Master Yoda once told me that the future is always in motion. We can never see it perfectly because it's always changing."

"Yes, you have told me about Yoda's teachings before, when we were ... traveling."Akanah smiled at the memory, then continued, "We Fallanassi believe much the same thing-that it is impossible to know where the Current will take us, because the Current is ever-changing."

A flutter of exhilaration rose inside Luke, and he began to hope that he might yet persuade Akanah to cooperate. "Then why would you went Abeloth to change it back?"he asked. "If we don't know where it's going anyway, how can we know that the old course is any better than the new course? Or even that it's different?"

"Because now we do know" Akanah replied. "When Jacen changed its course, he changed it to something-to that vision you saw in the Pool of Knowledge, of the white throne-"

"How do you know about that?" Luke demanded, interrupting to prevent her from mentioning Allana while Vestara was outside eavesdropping. "Abeloth?"

"Then it is true." Akanah's voice grew more resolute. "Jacen has turned the current toward a destination of his choosing-and you have seen it."

"I've had a vision, yes, "Luke said. 'Whether that means he has actually turned the Current onto a new course, I have no idea."

Swells of alarm began to roll through the Force as Ben and Vestara suddenly grew very concerned about something happening outside the cavern mouth. Luke pivoted casually on one foot, turning to look out toward the sea and the white island, and saw that the birds had grown fiercely agitated.

"But if Jacen did turn the Current to a new destination," Luke continued, "and Abeloth changes it back, wont she also be fixing its destination? Wont she also be fixing a course that should be ever-changing?"

Akanah furrowed her brow, and Luke thought for a moment that he had shown her the lie in Abeloth's promise.

Then Akanah's eyes clouded with confusion, and her Force aura grew cold and shrouded. "That is a foolish question," she said. "Abeloth is beyond your understanding."

"Then explain her to me."

The above is primarily for context, but the takeaways are:

1. Jacen apparently altered the flow of time, the current, because he saw Krayt coming. Abeloth, according to the Falannassi, was released to course-correct - to bring the galaxy back to the course it originally had planned.
2. Luke, seeing that the new course was one where Allana Solo ruled on the golden throne over a peaceful galaxy, decided that he liked the new future better than the one Abeloth wanted to return to.
3. It's important to remember two things: everything said here is pretty subjective, and a matter of perspective and interpretation, and also, the future is always in motion. However, the fact that Krayt coming into power was being foreshadowed in visions and dreams to Luke and Caedus decades, maybe a century, in advance, and that Jacen had to manually alter the flow of time while he was Mind Walking in order to prevent this, which provoked Abeloth to have to come back to course-correct, speaks volumes to how powerful Krayt is - his will is made manifest, such that one would need to go to extreme, metaphysical lengths to try and stop him from ruling the galaxy, and failing to stop him at that.

Fate of the Jedi: Ascension wrote:Daala had wanted answers as to why Jacen Solo had become Darth Caedus. Luke and Ben had wanted answers, too. They had embarked in search of them, thinking to revisit places Jacen had gone in an effort to discover, piecemeal if they had to, how a good man had strayed so far into the shadows. They had learned much of what Jacen learned; skills that no other Jedi had known for centuries, if ever. And they had learned that his fall had been inevitable.

Standing here, his mind and heart open, Luke realized they should have known that part of the mystery long before they had even set foot onto Jade Shadow. It seemed obvious now. Vergere's torment, in essence a new, if brutal, morality, had molded Jacen and set him on the path. He had been taught his specialness, but had misunderstood it. While every being was unique and had a gift to offer the galaxy, Jacen had seen his uniqueness as a destiny-one that gave him the right, perhaps even the duty, to trample whatever stood in his path in order to do what he felt was best. He had started the Swarm War in an attempt to prevent a dark future, had convinced himself that the means justified the ends, and by the time of his death at his twin's hand had been willing to sacrifice trust, love, family-everyone and everything except Allana, who seemed to be his last tie to his humanity. All this, to stop the vision he had seen of the dark man on the throne.

The true tragedy of Jacen Solo lay not in what he had done, but in why he had done it..
More on the dark man and the dark future Jacen tried to prevent - Krayt was the entire reason Jacen fell to the dark side and committed every atrocity after the fact.

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote: "Thuruht believes that a change in the Current caused Abeloth's release," Raynar said, summarizing for his companions. He turned back to Thuruht. "But the Jedi believe the future is always in motion. So I have trouble seeing why a change in the Current would release Abeloth."

"Is a river current not in motion?" Thuruht replied, also speaking aloud. "And will it not carry a boat to many different places, depending on how the riders paddle?"

"Yes, that's true," Raynar said, with some impatience. "But wherever they land, they do not usually free Abeloth."

"They do not ever free her, because they have not changed the Current," Thuruht replied. "They have only ridden it to one of many different destinations. But if they wish to go where the Current cannot carry them, the current must be turned."

"And to do that, the river itself must be altered," Raynar finished.

"Yes," Thuruht replied. "The Force guides the Current. It is impossible to turn the Current without also changing the Force."

"And that is what frees Abeloth," Raynar clarified.

"Yes," Thuruht agreed. "The Force is in the dominion of the Celestials. When their power is usurped, the Bringer of Chaos comes."

Raynar waited while C-3PO translated the exchange for his companions. He was about to recap his suspicions regarding Jacen when Tekli arrived at the same conclusion.

"Then Jacen freed Abeloth?" she asked.

"Yes."

"By changing what he saw in his Force vision?" Tekli clarified.

Thuruht clacked her mandibles in a Killik shrug. "We do not know what Jacen saw in his Force vision."

Tekli's ears flattened in frustration. She looked to Lowbacca, who let out a sad groan and replied that even Tahiri had not known for certain. She believed the vision had to do with a dark man who ruled the galaxy, and that Jacen had been so disturbed by what he saw that he had turned to the dark side to prevent it.

After C-3PO had translated Lowbacca's explanation, Thuruht curled her antennae in the Killik equivalent of a nod.

"Then, yes," Thuruht replied. "If the dark man was the future Jacen wished to prevent, then it must be the future he changed."
There is a difference between changing possible futures, such as those seen in visions - Krayt ruling the galaxy for instance - and changing the current. Changing the current is the same as changing the Force's will itself, not just altering the future, but creating a future that had no possibility of existing before. So, for Jacen to stop Krayt, he fundamentally altered time itself, which is the dominion of the Force and the Celestials, and this is why Abeloth was released to course correct... at least according to these people.

The takeaway here, again, is the extreme length with which Jacen went to try and stop this future from taking place - he surely knew the severity and consequences of altering the timeline on a fundamental level, but he did it anyway. He must have been so sure this was going to happen he felt he had no other choice. Which means that Krayt's supremacy was something that was heavily, heavily foreshadowed through the Force, almost as if it was a preordained conclusion - the only other beings whose destinies have been foreshadowed so thickly are Sidious, Anakin and perhaps a select few others?

And so we come full circle:
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:Luke turned to find the form of a shadow-wrapped human approaching from the shore by which Luke had entered the water, the same shore by which all mortals came to the Lake of Apparitions. The silhouette was tall and broad-shouldered, with a head hooded in darkness and glowing eyes that never seemed to match colors, that went from brown to orange and yellow to blue, that sometimes grew dark as ebony and seemed to be not there at all. As the silhouette drew nearer, it began to resemble a man Luke had seen many years before, a man who had appeared only in his dreams-and always shortly before he awoke feeling uneasy and frightened.

Luke glanced back at Mara, then said, "It's him."

"Who?"

"The man I kept seeing in my dreams, before Jacen turned Sith."

Mara looked confused. "But the man in your dreams was Jacen."

"I thought so," Luke replied. "Who else could it have been?"

He turned back to the figure and saw that the cloaking shadows had coalesced into a suit of dark, spiked armor. The newcomer's right arm seemed a mere ghost, as though he had only a holographic projection where there should have been a limb. And his left eye had become an empty white circle that looked more like a window into another universe than an actual organ. His face was weathered and chiseled, though-with a web of tattoos radiating outward from an angry gaze and deeply etched scowl-he could not be considered handsome. He stopped three paces away and stood staring, as though trying to decide whether to attack Luke or speak to him.

"You," Luke said. It was the man with the tattooed face-the one who had been behind Luke's team in the Manarai Heights Spaceport, and who had later disarmed Yaqeel Saav'etu near Fellowship Plaza. "Who are you?"

"No one whose help you want," Jacen said. "That's the dark man I saw on the Throne of Balance."

"And the only one who can help you," the stranger said. "With the Ones gone, there is only one way to stop Abeloth...Jedi and Sith together."
Self-explanatory... the original dark man, before Luke tried to mess with Jacen's Force visions or Jacen tried to change the future, was none other than Darth Krayt. They were wracked with recurring dreams and visions of a dark man in spiked armor ruling over a darkened galaxy from a golden throne surrounded by Sith acolytes. And despite Jacen's attempts to, at the most fundamental level, meddle with the timeline of the Force, not just altering possible futures, but altering the flow of time itself, he not only failed to change the future, but he released a celestial-like being who, as Krayt points out, is so powerful that the only way it can be defeated is by the Jedi and Sith joining their power together.

So, with that established....

Krayt's Future - Darker Than Ever


I am going to let my good friend Azronger take over from, as I couldn't have put the next part better myself:

Krayt notes in his Holocron that he has bent the Force to his will, and the Legacy Era Campaign Guide notes that "the influence of the dark side is stronger than ever," "The dark side clouds everything, and the galaxy's future is harder to see than ever before," and that "If the influence of the dark side waxes and wanes, during the Legacy era it reaches peaks unseen except during the grimmest times in galactic history."
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Now, while he did according to his own word, bend the Force to his will, Krayt as of this time did require the widespread rule of the Sith and the destruction of the Jedi to aid him in unbalancing the Force to such an extent - more comparable to Plagueis and Palpatine during the prequel trilogy. However, once he is reborn, his personal cosmic will and influence become more puissant. He reaches out into the dark side and touches the minds of all those attuned to it. Note how didn't individually pick and choose to invade the minds of his minions; Cade Skywalker and Antares Draco - two expressly non-Sith and anti-Krayt Force-users - felt Krayt in their mind as well. This wasn't just a telepathy feat on a galactic scale; it was communion with very the fabric of the dark side itself, Krayt's will reverberating through it, "alive, dominant, and seductive." After this, he takes over the minds of the millions of Sith Troopers as well, and marches off to war. And one should wonder, too, whether this was done via enslaving them all conventionally, or whether Krayt's control over them is more so reflective of his dominance over the dark side as a whole.
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Summary

Krayt is one of the two most cosmically significant Sith Lords in history (the other being Sidious). He was seen in Tenebrous' calculations of the future, and he for years haunted the visions and dreams of Luke Skywalker and Jacen Solo, prompting Jacen Solo to fundamentally alter the timeline, and will of the Force itself (opposed to altering a series of possibly futures), bringing about the release of Abeloth to correct the course back to its preordained conclusion. When Krayt's vision of the One Sith came to fruition, he plunged the galaxy into a shroud of darkness. There was "no balance" to the Force, and the dark reached "peaks unseen except during the grimmest times in galactic history". This was a direct result of Darth Krayt's power, per numerous sources both in and out of universe. When Krayt was Reborn... well, I will let him say the rest:

The State of Krayt 2019 50-15-Edited
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The State of Krayt 2019 Empty Re: The State of Krayt 2019

on Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Sith Trooper Feat


Going to let Az speak on my behalf once again as I couldn't have said it any better:

One of Krayt's captured Sith Troopers revealed that there are millions of his kind, all of them "linked through the dark side" to Krayt, their wills tantamount to his own.
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And we know this wasn't just propaganda; the Sith Troopers start going on suicide bombing runs en masse once they detect Krayt has been killed. They were slaves to his will, entirely codependent.

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We also know that they were not bound to him for their whole life like the Children of the Emperor are to Vitiate, because prior to Legacy: War, Krayt was only ever noted to have opened his mind to his closest followers, and Cade and Darth Stryfe noted that Krayt could no longer be heard inside their head once he had died on Had Abaddon. Point being, he wasn't mentally in contact with the Sith Troopers until his after resurrection.

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The above quotes also lay the foundations of the Sith Troopers feat: long before that, Krayt had been sinking his psychic fangs into the minds of his servants, and even the Force itself. Krayt notes in his Holocron that he has bent the Force to his will, and the Legacy Era Campaign Guide notes that "the influence of the dark side is stronger than ever," "The dark side clouds everything, and the galaxy's future is harder to see than ever before," and that "If the influence of the dark side waxes and wanes, during the Legacy era it reaches peaks unseen except during the grimmest times in galactic history."

Now, while he did according to his own word, bend the Force to his will, Krayt as of this time did require the widespread rule of the Sith and the destruction of the Jedi to aid him in unbalancing the Force to such an extent - more comparable to Plagueis and Palpatine during the prequel trilogy. However, once he is reborn, his personal cosmic will and influence become more puissant. He reaches out into the dark side and touches the minds of all those attuned to it. Note how didn't individually pick and choose to invade the minds of his minions; Cade Skywalker and Antares Draco - two expressly non-Sith and anti-Krayt Force-users - felt Krayt in their mind as well. This wasn't just a telepathy feat on a galactic scale; it was communion with very the fabric of the dark side itself, Krayt's will reverberating through it, "alive, dominant, and seductive." After this, he takes over the minds of the millions of Sith Troopers as well, and marches off to war. And one should wonder, too, whether this was done via enslaving them all conventionally, or whether Krayt's control over them is more so reflective of his dominance over the dark side as a whole.

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Either way you see it, a feat like this has only been replicated in the lore once before: by Emperor Palpatine. By the timeframe of the the original trilogy, Palpatine had embedded himself into the fabric of the Force so deeply he had become a focusing mechanism of the dark side itself, and the Galactic Empire an extension of his will. With his death, the forces under his control experienced similar effects to Darth Krayt's Sith Troopers after Krayt's demise. Grand Admiral Thrawn posthumously commented that "You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore—none of you in the Imperial Fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg-implanted into a combat Computer."

Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi novelization wrote:For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.
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Star Wars: Heir to the Empire wrote:Thrawn smiled back. "It is indeed. Tell me, Master C'baoth: are you familiar with the Imperial Fleet's disastrous defeat at the Battle of Endor five years ago?"

"I've heard rumors. One of the offworlders who came here spoke about it." C'baoth's gaze drifted to the window, to the palace/crypt visible across the square. "Though only briefly."

Pellaeon swallowed. Thrawn himself didn't seem to notice the implication. "Then you must have wondered how a few dozen Rebel ships could possibly rout an Imperial force that outgunned it by at least ten to one."

"I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."

"In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."

He turned to look at Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain—you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in short, of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He was starting to see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."

One blue-black eyebrow went up, just slightly. "Really? The loss of the Executor—the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself—the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have had trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?"

"The Emperor was not directing the battle,"
Pellaeon snapped with a fire that startled him. "Not in any way. I was there, Admiral—I know."

"Yes, Captain, you were there," Thrawn said, his voice abruptly hard. "And it's time you gave up your blindfold and faced the truth, no matter how bitter you find it. You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore—none of you in the Imperial Fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg-implanted into a combat Computer."

But of course, unlike Palpatine, Krayt was not influencing mere muggles, but beings who were hand-picked by him to serve as part of his clandestine militia, the Sith Troopers. On top of outright stating that the Sith Troopers are naturally the strongest Force-sensitives around, he directly compared them to his ordinary servants, stating that "As powerful as my One Sith are […] I desired an army suitably loyal -- and undefeatable."

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This is seen in practice how Sith Troopers don't even have to draw their lightsabers to outright stomp regular Sith Lords with the Force:

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In the battle of Taivas, hordes of normal Sith are being slaughtered en masse by just a few of the Jedi Temple's defenders. Not a single Jedi or Imperial Knight corpse in sight:

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Yet when the Sith Troopers enter, the tide of the battle turns completely. Despite T'ra Saa going into battle meditation to bolster the Temple's defenders further, they crush all opposition. Bodies of Jedi are strewn about, with only one or two Sith Trooper corpses seen around Cade and Nat. Shado Vao even commented that "They are Sith, but unlike any we have ever faced":

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And Krayt was holding millions of these guys under his telepathic thumb. Not outright domination, but he did give them commands and organized their military campaign on a galactic scale through the Force, akin to Palpatine during the original trilogy or Naga Sadow from his meditation sphere. We know this because once he died, the Sith Troopers lost all military cohesion, went insane, and committed mass suicide.

And as an addendum to those who still aren't convinced that Krayt stomped Cade, note that the Sith Troopers lose their minds only after Krayt is killed, and not anytime before. Ergo, whilst dueling with Cade, Krayt was multitasking with coordinating and quasi-dominating apparently millions of exceptionally powerful dark siders. If nothing else, it confirms Krayt wasn't focusing his attention on Cade all that much, while Cade was out to kill him with all his will and might, yet Krayt won anyway (this might also explain why Krayt was taken out in such an ignominious way by Cade: the bulk of his attention was on his Sith Troopers, and not a defeated enemy).
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The State of Krayt 2019 Empty Re: The State of Krayt 2019

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