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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 5:42 pm
By the way, might want to read this:


In an uncharted region of space, Mortis is an ethereal place that defies conventional description. During the Clone Wars, an immense monolith appeared in the Chrelythiumn system, broadcasting an ancient Jedi distress code. Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka Tano investigated the kilometers-wide artifact, and were drawn into a paradise realm inhabited by unspeakably powerful Force-wielders. These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.

"Unspeakably powerful Forcewielders."
"Fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force."

Yeah, seems pretty clear that the Mortis Gods are meant to be some of the top dogs in Star Wars. 

Also, the Son is confirmed as an embodiment of the Dark Side:


The Son was an embodiment of the dark side of the Force who dwelled on Mortis during the Clone Wars with his sister, the light-sider known as Daughter, and the powerful Force user known as Father, who tried to keep them in balance. Son sought to escape Mortis and wreak havoc in the galaxy, trying repeatedly to lure Anakin Skywalker to the dark side by changing form, possessing Ahsoka Tano and finally by showing Anakin a vision of the terrible acts he would commit. His efforts ultimately failed, culminating in his death along with those of Daughter and Father.


The maintaining of the balance is also attributed to the Son, Daughter and Father:


Together they provide balance to the Force, a balance maintained and channeled through their Father.

Annnnd the death of the Daughter would have considerably boosted the powers of the Sith, including Sidious:



As the balance in this world crumbles, so shall war escalate in your galaxy. As my son has descended into the dark side, so have the sith gained strength.

And for the final nail in the coffin, StarWars.com confirms any of the ones are more powerful than any Jedi or Sith:


In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can.

Any evidence contrary to any of this, or can I go back to arguing something far less contrived and pointless?
Jake
Jake

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 5:58 pm
Lucas has stated that a peak Anakin would be “twice as good as the Emperor.”  On Mortis, we’re given a demonstration of a full-potential Anakin’s power in ragdolling the Son and Daughter together. Therefore it takes 50% of his power to stomp either individually. 

Palpatine ~ 50% Anakin >>> Son. 

If this means that Sidious is vastly above GM Luke, then so be it, take it up with George. 
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:01 pm
@Jake wrote:Lucas has stated that a peak Anakin would be “twice as good as the Emperor.”  On Mortis, we’re given a demonstration of a full-potential Anakin’s power in ragdolling the Son and Daughter together. Therefore it takes 50% of his power to stomp either individually. 

Palpatine ~ 50% Anakin >>> Son. 

If this means that Sidious is vastly above GM Luke, then so be it, take it up with George. 
Besides being outdated, there's another problem with that quote: it never confirms that is Anakin's full potential:

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor…”


It says he was capable of becoming twice as powerful as Sidious, but where exactly does it say that's his absolute limit? All it says is "his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor", absolutely no indication that that would have been his full power. I can say that someone has the ability to be twice as good as someone else, but that doesn't mean that they're completely limited to this. 


Even assuming that this was the case, there still stands the fact that it's outdated. At the time this quote was recorded (2005), Sidious was indisputably the most powerful Force user in Star Wars. However, with the creation of the Mortis Gods in 2008/2009, the power levels of Star Wars drastically changed. George hadn't even fully realised the idea of the Ones until The Clone Wars which took place years after ROTS, so applying that logic is completely redundant. 


Last edited by BreakofDawn on September 14th 2019, 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Valkorion
Valkorion

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Here is why Darth Sidious wins.

hURH RHURRHFOEHFIOHEW

Bane who is > Vitiate

according to a source whose authors thought they were writing canon and didn't mark it Legends lmfao

& also TPM Windu (who is > all Jedi who walked temple corridors)

IU source

> Revan Reborn > KOTOR Revan >> SF Malak >> Exar Kun (who is the darkest power in the galaxy) > Abeloth and The Son

yeah cuz "darkest" = "most powerful" according to only i love straws lmfao

[quote]This makes sense from a feats perspective due to the following facts:

So Kun, Ragnos, Nadd, Naga etc are > Nihilus, but even better:

> uses author opinions
> author opinions also state Exar Kun > DE SIdious

gtoh lmfao

kun was just like 30 years before nihilus, how is he ancient? lmfao

But just to kind of finish things off here Kun's extremely weakened spirit is more dangerous than modern-age super weapons.

wtf does this even mean? if stalin was more dangerous than an m1 abrams does this mean stalin can beat an m1 abrams 1 v 1?

F counter going up

Luke and co. all say that if Kun or Ragnos were resurrected they would die which is true based on facts presented.

Luke also said he doesn't know what Ragnos could do, and Ragnos got pwned by a teenage Jaden lawl

Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet.
--The Comics Companion

but author clarified that was hyperbole? oh wait author opinion only matters to you when it's for kreia's holocrons

F

So Sheev would open up a Force Storm on the Son and kill him easily the end.

the "full potency" of the storms was a few km's wide

the son was by statement a threat to the universe

F
The Apprentice
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:13 pm
i love straws

Lmao.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Level Two

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:14 pm
yeah cuz "darkest" = "most powerful" according to only i love straws lmfao

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 3750555731
Valkorion
Valkorion

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:17 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
"modern times" reading is BS but who cares, Krayt is trash so 28 year old Palpatine prob oneshots him lmao

@ILS wrote:Vong Legacy Krayt already "far outstrips all Sith of his era" which includes Darish Vol, who has much the power of Luke Skywalker.

wtf? vol was over a hundred years before "Vong Legacy Krayt", what are you talking about?

you think because some SW marketing calls it "Legacy" it must be the same era?

Now, it basically took Krayt + Luke combined to beat Abeloth. And Vol is not far behind them given he fucked up Abeloth and has the majority of Luke's power.

> ignores part where Vol died to Abeloth with zero effort, focuses on TP fight instead

Ok thats cool, but Abeloth is 13x Luke, whereas Legacy Krayt is about 3x Vol to be conservative. Well, thats fine for two reasons:

but your scaling fails them lmao, you were using "power" quotes now you wanna bring in "combat" but the "power" scaling still fails

F

Now, Krayt also has big feats,

if he had big feats you wouldn't spend 95% of all your krayt wank scaling from a shitty scaling of him from a vague fight scene comparison and 5% insisting the Legacy comics back it up lol

why do you always talk about Apocalypse more than his feats in Legacy? because his feats in Legacy put him Bane tier at best

brb struggled against wyrlokk who is < spirit karness muur
brb "outshone" by spirit Karness Muur
brb struggled against Cade

btw did you know Hett near Apoc lost to a vong while teenage Jacen beat 4 the first time he fought them?

F

like telepathically mind raping every dark sider in the galaxy with a force vision

not what happened lol, cite it

and having millions of SIth troopers under his thrall,

false lol, a single dying one claimed that he felt "his presence"

and there weren't millions of sith troopers lol

to the point they all committed jihad the moment he died.

i guess Hitler is Krayt tier too?

BTW Abeloth's best feat while Force Rage amped is city level which isn't even on the level of Ludo Kressh at this point.

name a character who melted a city on raw power

...
Valkorion
Valkorion

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
facts:

sheev in book of the sith was awed by possibility that force storms could destroy thousands of people at once, said he couldn't control them yet
> abeloth melted a city by getting mad
> son threat to fabric of the universe

sheev lost to de luke who was said to be "too powerful" for him, needed a haxx ability that was opening up a hyperspace wormhole to get edge
> abeloth way more powerful than fotj luke

F
F

F
Jake
Jake

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:43 pm
Besides being outdated

Outdated? I don't see it overwritten or contradicted anywhere, so it looks good to me.

It says he was capable of becoming twice as powerful as Sidious, but where exactly does it say that's his absolute limit? All it says is "his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor", absolutely no indication that that would have been his full power. I can say that someone has the ability to be twice as good as someone else, but that doesn't mean that they're completely limited to this. 

The full part of that interview puts it into context a bit more;

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful." he says. But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot his power, are curbed at this point, because as a living form, there's not much of him left. So his ability to become twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20% less than the Emperor."

Lucas is trying to stress how powerful a full potential Anakin would have been, for him to not use the upper limit would be nonsensical. If you knew X to be five times more powerful than Y, would you not state that he was five times more powerful? Or would you instead use a lower number for no reason at all? Especially when it's in your interest to hype up X. This seems incredibly obvious to me.

Even assuming that this was the case, there still stands the fact that it's outdated. At the time this quote was recorded (2005), Sidious was indisputably the most powerful Force user in Star Wars. However, with the creation of the Mortis Gods in 2008/2009, the power levels of Star Wars drastically changed. George hadn't even fully realised the idea of the Ones until The Clone Wars which took place years after ROTS, so applying that logic is completely redundant. 

There's no evidence that Lucas' idea of Anakin's full potential has changed, which is the only thing relevant here. George has established Anakin's peak power as double that of the Emperor's, and created the Mortis episodes in spite of this. You'd need to point me to a new interview where he talks about a power nerf in reaction to the Son/Daughter ragdolling for your points to hold any weight, because as it's presented, Lucas - a man with set power levels for each of his characters - gave the green light to Anakin with double Sidious' power, stomping Force entities. 

G-Canon can't be outdated unless you give me another later G-Canon statement overruling the first.
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:49 pm
This thread is the spark that SI needs to light the fire. It has now been bookmarked lmfao.
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 6:53 pm
Pretending this is serious for a moment:

In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can.

Databank: Father

Mystery on Mortis! Sent to discover the origin of a mysterious distress call, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and his Padawan Ahsoka Tano are stranded on a distant planet. There, they discover three beings more powerful with the Force than any Jedi have seen before.

The Clone Wars: Altar of Mortis

The Son was not a Sith -- his powers existed beyond the domain of the Sith Lords.

Encyclopedia: Son

So the Son > RotS Sidious (duh). This happens to invalidate almost all of ILS's scaling chains which try to put Sith canonically below RotS Sidious above The Son, with the above quotes taking precedence due to:

- specificity in who is comparing to what
- specificity in what is being compared (power, not "darkest power" or "greatest threat")
- less reliance on a convoluted chain of various inferences
- recency of statements

The Father: "My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other. Therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites."

Anakin Skywalker: "As a sanctuary?"

The Father: "And a prison. You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

The Clone Wars: Overlords

The Son and Daughter could "tear the very fabric of our universe".

Now, Luke in Dark Empire was able to defeat Palpatine with some battle meditation from a barely trained Leia; sources explicitly note that Luke was too powerful for Palpatine and that Palpatine's use of Force Storms was a "desperate" attempt at victory. Meanwhile, a very far from prime Abeloth was far more powerful than FotJ Luke, who was massively beyond DE Luke. With that in mind, the only argument you can make that would have the slightest hint of casting doubt would be that Sidious can defeat the Son with a Force storm. We can have that conversation - but the idea that he's outright as powerful in any conventional sense is just hilarious, as I'm sure we all know.
ILS
ILS

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 7:11 pm
I'm going to enjoy doing the debating equivalent of feeding your own families' entrails to you under the guise of a delightful assortment of baked treats shaped like penises, @BreakofDawn
@BreakofDawn wrote:@ILS 
The Son and Daughter had the nexus amp too so that's irrelevant

On a world they had complete control over, so it's kind of difficult to say they were amped when they were the ones powering the nexus. 
Proof?

]Which is clearly not true.[/size]
Proof?

We also have quotes of him being more powerful than ever at later dates which would include him ragdolling the Son and Daughter on Mortis.

Already addressed this. 
Nah


Yes Mortis exists, but given that Anakin has no clear memory of the Mortis arc, your guess is as good as mine what actually happened there.



Considering they then went back to Coruscant and Yoda later told Luke about the Ones and Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka's visit, it seems pretty damn likely he remembered a lot of it. He even told the Council (or at least Yoda) about the Mortis dagger. 



It's entirely possible they hallucinated.

Which there's no proof for beyond pointless speculation based on a refusal to believe the portrayal of the show and an attempt by you to look impressive by trying to challenge something established long ago. That claim is also debunked by Rebels, Sidious, and the Legends continuity. Burden of proof is on you, mate. 
I was mostly trolling you on this minor point well done for keeping up this far sport.


Prove Anakin only drew on his full power on Mortis that one time and that the myriad quotes stating he drew more deeply on the Force later/was more powerful later don't apply to Mortis. Burden of proof is on you.

Let's see:

> Anakin despite growing immensely was still < Dooku until he achieved his Zonakin state.
That isn't actually proof that he wielded less power than he had while ragdolling the Son at times where he was accoladed to be more powerful. It's basically just personal incredulity.
> Knightfall Vader, despite being more powerful than any iteration of the character ever, was still only a peer to ROTS Sidious, who's vastly below DE Sidious.
Yes. And the Son is below Kun who is way below Sheev. Now you begin to see the truth of the matter my sweet delicate and vulnerable summer child.
> The Son per the Father's own words had the power to "tear the very fabric of our universe", which ROTS Sidious doesn't have anything even remotely close to either feat or accolade wise.
Tearing the fabric of the universe is what is required to create a Force Storm, which is something Thon, Sheev's dark side adepts, RotS Sheev and basically anyone who has made a small Force storm can do. Nothing personnel kiddo.
> The Son was also capable of completely tipping the balance of the Force simply by killing the Daughter, indicating that his and the Daughter's presence in the Force is virtually unmatched by any other being.
Something Sidious and Plagueis managed by thinking really hard. The balance of the Force has been shifted way out of balance many times by regular beings, e.g the Force was as out of balance as it ever had been at any other time history when Krayt slaughtered the Jedi Order, so while I've already proven he rapes the Son, I'm not enough of a novice to think that his actions unbalancing the Force is a good argument to use. Also, the events of the movies went largely unchanged as a result of the Ones dying so go ahead and prove to me why I should give a shit. The Chosen One was born to defeat Sidious, when Sidious died and only then, balance was restored to the Force. The Ones were completely inconsequential. They have symbolic importance at best. Per your argument Sheev wins. Thanks for playing.

> Upon killing the Daughter, the Son plunged an entire planet into darkness and was, according to the Father, going to cause an escalation in the Clone Wars and boost the power of the Sith (including Sidious), indicating also that his presence in the Force was greater than Sheev's.
The Father's fallible opinion aside, Sheev has better accolades and feats than this by a longshot. See:

This one shows Palpatine as the destroyer of worlds and one who displaced countless millions of beings.

--Insider 88

In place of the Empire and the New Republic, Palpatine planned to bring about a new form of galactic governance. He would use the dark side to control everything and everyone in the galaxy.What's more, he was capable of it.

--Official Starships and Vehicle Collection #64

Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet.

--The Comics Companion

While on Mortis, there are numerous indications that Anakin is tapping into his full potential:
Even if he was tapping into his full potential at the time, the idea he couldn't unlock further potential later on as the story progressed is supported absolutely nowhere. Give me one shred of evidence that Anakin has some kind of mathematically predetermined potential that never fluctuates and was only ever unlocked 100% on Mortis.

> The Father's test was designed to prove to Anakin that he was the Chosen One beyond all doubt.
Yes. Something a midichlorian tester could have told him if he wasn't a primitive. Banite Sith can judge Force potential by looking directly at a Force users midichlorian count through the Force with even more accuracy than a midichlorian testing machine for the record, so this shows another avenue in which Sheev embarrassed the Mortis wankorites. Regardless, just because the Father thinks ragdolling his kids proves Anakin is the Chosen One, that doesn't mean that doing so is the Chosen One's full potential.
> Anakin at his base level is absolutely nothing to the Ones, to the point that they can one-shot him with a casual gesture.
Yeah no shit. Anakin while ragdolling them > Anakin while losing to them. He's a crybaby bitch, emotions and mental state cause power fluctuations. This is elementary stuff. We have quotes saying Vader drew on the Force more deeply than ever at several points after Mortis, that includes the Mortis ragdoll.
> When Obi-Wan remarks to Anakin about the planet essentially being the Force, Anakin immediately undergoes a huge transformation,
I didn't see him sprouting any wings. You're injecting nuance into relatively simplistic events that isn't there. Obi-Wan reminding Anakin to draw on the Force energy in the planet, that is available to everyone there including the Ones, doesn't mean he had some special amp.

not only ragdolling the Son and Daughter but also altering Mortis between day and night merely as a side-effect.
Valkorion drained the energy out of a sun and Plagueis rearranged constellations. Aleema Keto ripped the core out of a star. None of this flashy shit is actually impressive.

Upon doing this, the Father attributes this to his full potential, stating that "only the Chosen One could tame both of my children." If it were just a simple amp, this wouldn't have happened later on:
How is saying "Only the Chosen can do this" from a fallible character who clearly has a high opinion of himself proof that Anakin would never reach a higher potential or that only he can ragdoll the Son and Daughter? You realise very little of what you are saying constitutes hard evidence, correct?


No, it says he grew vastly more powerful, not vastly more powerful from only a select point in time. Prove me wrong or quit.

Cool, so you also believe that Starkiller's Clone > or >> Oneness Galen?
Yeah if the quote says that Starkiller > Galen at the time of Oneness then that's what it says. What a poor attempt at a gotcha.

Proof that it wouldn't be taken into account in Anakin's case? An OOU quote blanket stating that he was drawing on the Force more deeply than ever would include him on Mortis, which btw, you haven't even proven was a one-off.

Let's mix this up a little. Show me a feat from non-Mortis Anakin comparable to this:
Courtesy of Azronger pre-suit Vader was bestowed with "newfound power" from the dark side:

https://www.writeurl.com/text/9hkrjo7vki325s3d3bs3/v46f47pxo6m65t7kyp5s

Also:

He had dreamed of capturing Grievous ever since Muunilinst-and now the general was close. So close Anakin could practically smell him . . . and Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.
[...]
When Padmé Amidala landed on Mustafar, Darth Vader ran to meet her. Full of his new powers, he urged her to join him and take over the galaxy.
Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Courtesy of LotL:

Anakin and Obi Wan fight fiercely though the control room on Mustafar. They each tap into the force as they never have before.

-Revenge of the Sith Play and Sound, Interactive novel

[/size]

You insist it's a one-off but provide no evidence for this. What a shame.
Pretty sure I've covered that in this post. 
Nah

EDIT: Before you respond, read the quotes and statements in my second post.
Ok lets take a look my dude.

By the way, might want to read this:

In an uncharted region of space, Mortis is an ethereal place that defies conventional description. During the Clone Wars, an immense monolith appeared in the Chrelythiumn system, broadcasting an ancient Jedi distress code. Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka Tano investigated the kilometers-wide artifact, and were drawn into a paradise realm inhabited by unspeakably powerful Force-wielders. These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.

"Unspeakably powerful Forcewielders."
"Fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force."

Yeah, seems pretty clear that the Mortis Gods are meant to be some of the top dogs in Star Wars.
OK.

He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

--Dark Empire Sourcebook
It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

--Dark Empire endnotes

When the evil Emperor, Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force, turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke, Anakin Skywalker suddenly awoke from the curse that had imprisoned him for so long...

--Dark Empire endnotes

Then you have Vitiate who is below Bane:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side.

--The Old Republic Encyclopedia

The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side.

--The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

--The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

More for Sheev:

Palpatine affected the simple clothing of a simple man, but drew his powers of persuasion and control from the blackest depths of the dark side of the Force.

--The Complete Visual Dictionary

He brought about the greatest return of the dark side ever so above Abeloth and the Son

To grasp the depths and mercurial intents of the dark side, there is no better authority than the Sith architect who brought about its greatest return. Darth Sidious spent decades ruminating on the nature of the dark side, and as Palpatine, he sought to pen the most comprehensive tome on the nature of darkness and the practices of the Sith.

--From the Dark Side Compendium

The Father might have the opinion that his kids would burst the fabric of space, but Sheev on the other hand:
The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

Nothing can match such dark power...

--Dark Empire endnotes

Also, the Son is confirmed as an embodiment of the Dark Side:

The Son was an embodiment of the dark side of the Force who dwelled on Mortis during the Clone Wars with his sister, the light-sider known as Daughter, and the powerful Force user known as Father, who tried to keep them in balance. Son sought to escape Mortis and wreak havoc in the galaxy, trying repeatedly to lure Anakin Skywalker to the dark side by changing form, possessing Ahsoka Tano and finally by showing Anakin a vision of the terrible acts he would commit. His efforts ultimately failed, culminating in his death along with those of Daughter and Father.
Sheev has better accolades than this and Vitiate has equivalent accolades.

The maintaining of the balance is also attributed to the Son, Daughter and Father:
They were doing a terrible job, because the Force was out of balance and slanted heavily towards the dark side at the time of the Mortis arc. All because of Sidious and Plagueis' meditations against the Force and Sidious' subsequent actions. Hence why Anakin was conceived concurrently with the Force retreating from the Banite Sith and the dark side ascending. Hence why the Force remained out of balance after the Ones were dead and right up until Sidious was finally killed.

Annnnd the death of the Daughter would have considerably boosted the powers of the Sith, including Sidious:
The Father's opinion is nice I guess? Do you have any proof? Besides, it's not as big a deal as you're making out. The sides of the Force rise and dip depending on who is alive at various times. When the Jedi are killed the dark side ascends, when Sidious dies the Force returns to balance. The Ones are fairly powerful so the Daughter dying would help the Sith, just like Sheev dying would help the Son. A lot more actually based on the evidence because again, the Ones ended up being completely inconsequential in this regard.

And for the final nail in the coffin, StarWars.com confirms any of the ones are more powerful than any Jedi or Sith:
"able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can". Several points to make here:

1. Canon-centric sources don't account for Legends
2. No "known" mortals meaning there could exist mortals who can replicate their feats...
3. Case in point, all of their esoteric powers have been replicated by Kun, Lomi Plo, Nightsisters, Valkorion, etc etc.
4. There are plenty of obscure Force cults who can wield the Force in "ways no mortals of the galaxy can", including Luke and Sidious whose knowledge of the Force exceeds the Ones per accolades. Jacen went and studied with a few weird Force cults and came back with powers Luke had never heard of, Luke could never wield Mnemotherapy until he learned how to, etc. None of this means that these beings are more powerful in a fight.

Any evidence contrary to any of this, or can I go back to arguing something far less contrived and pointless?
You seem to be taking this very personally and are quite upset. You probably won't enjoy reading this latest post. Go back to the drawing board and take another swing at this champ.
KingofBlades
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 7:13 pm
Loling hard at this thread rn.
Valkorion
Valkorion

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 7:20 pm
@ILS debating methodology

> "darkest power in the galaxy" and "more dangerous [than a political leader?]" = about power for sure
> "wield the Force in ways no known mortal can" could mean something other than power!

> It's just the Father's opinion, the entity called by Chee the most powerful Force user ever, on his own children he's known since the beginning of time
> Luke's speculations about ancient Sith he admits he knows nothing about, Kreia's speculations about ancient Sith thousands of years before her time, IU fact files made by New Republic historians, are 100% true

> authorial statements show ragnos > nihilus
> authorial statements show Sidious consuming all of space was exaggeration, but who cares lol
HellfireUnit
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 7:30 pm
Holy hell, something serious is going on here. Reserved.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 7:34 pm
Hmmmmm perhaps I can take advantage of this ridiculous scaling. SoR Revan>>Revan Reborn>KotOR Revan>>SF Malak>Exar Kun>the son>>>>Obi Wan
Revan is now god tier.
ILS
ILS

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 7:37 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:Pretending this is serious for a moment:

In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can.

Databank: Father

Mystery on Mortis! Sent to discover the origin of a mysterious distress call, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and his Padawan Ahsoka Tano are stranded on a distant planet. There, they discover three beings more powerful with the Force than any Jedi have seen before.

The Clone Wars: Altar of Mortis

The Son was not a Sith -- his powers existed beyond the domain of the Sith Lords.

Encyclopedia: Son

So the Son > RotS Sidious (duh). This happens to invalidate almost all of ILS's scaling chains which try to put Sith canonically below RotS Sidious above The Son, with the above quotes taking precedence due to:

- specificity in who is comparing to what
- specificity in what is being compared (power, not "darkest power" or "greatest threat")
- less reliance on a convoluted chain of various inferences
- recency of statements
SW.com is canon centric and does not acknowledge legends. This is a legends thread. The Ones can be > canon RotS Sheev but below Legends Exar Kun. Your attempt at being hipster, profound and outside the box while maintaining the allure of masculine aggression, assertiveness and a willingness to take a stand for what's right and good in the world ended up sounding like a commercial for doll houses marketed at south korean 4 year olds, in other words, you have lost your edge before sprouting your first face pube. What a sad conclusion to a mediocre career.


The Father: "My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other. Therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites."

Anakin Skywalker: "As a sanctuary?"

The Father: "And a prison. You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

The Clone Wars: Overlords

The Son and Daughter could "tear the very fabric of our universe".

Now, Luke in Dark Empire was able to defeat Palpatine with some battle meditation from a barely trained Leia; sources explicitly note that Luke was too powerful for Palpatine and that Palpatine's use of Force Storms was a "desperate" attempt at victory. Meanwhile, a very far from prime Abeloth was far more powerful than FotJ Luke, who was massively beyond DE Luke. With that in mind, the only argument you can make that would have the slightest hint of casting doubt would be that Sidious can defeat the Son with a Force storm. We can have that conversation - but the idea that he's outright as powerful in any conventional sense is just hilarious, as I'm sure we all know.
Based on what you've just told me I'll be surprised if you dress yourself in the morning without the assistance of your parents. As I've gone over at length tearing the fabric of the universe is something anyone with a basic grasp of Force storm can do, except worse because they also alter dimensions. Sheev's storms threaten to consume all of space. And in my case the quotes aren't lip service from the very people sucking off their own abilities cocks but an OOU source speaking factually.

No, Luke in Dark Empire interrupted Sheev's storm and let it consume him while he and his anemic sister ran like little children. You would be wise to join them. There are plenty of sources which state the opposite, that Sheev was too powerful for them and he defeated himself with the storm - I'll post these later unless someone wants to volunteer in the meantime.
ILS
ILS

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 7:48 pm
Quick Recap:

Wankatine is the greatest of all time.

I'm ragdolling all opposition at 1% of my maximum power.

I endorse everything Jake has said so far regarding Lucas' statement.

About 5% of the arguments I've laid out have been addressed, and those counters all fell far short of the mark.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 8:00 pm
@ILS wrote:SW.com is canon centric and does not acknowledge legends.

This is a legends thread. The Ones can be > canon RotS Sheev but below Legends Exar Kun.

Why didn't you actually address all of the quotes you were responding to?  Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 1668617588

Concession accepted.  Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 1289255181

Your attempt at being hipster, profound and outside the box while maintaining the allure of masculine aggression, assertiveness and a willingness to take a stand for what's right and good in the world ended up sounding like a commercial for doll houses marketed at south korean 4 year olds, in other words, you have lost your edge before sprouting your first face pube. What a sad conclusion to a mediocre career.

I feel like you secretly want to condescend to people and wank your intelligence (and convince people of it) but pigeonholed yourself by getting angry at DarthSkywalker0 for allegedly doing that, so now you're doing it while using the "it's only trolling bruh!" as a cover.  Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 2257779481

Based on what you've just told me I'll be surprised if you dress yourself in the morning without the assistance of your parents.

lol you know what i could say if i wanted to

As I've gone over at length tearing the fabric of the universe is something anyone with a basic grasp of Force storm can do, except worse because they also alter dimensions.

In the same sense that someone who picks up some dirt is "tearing apart the Earth". The Father would not care if the Son were just tearing up a few kilometers of space.

Sheev's storms threaten to consume all of space. And in my case the quotes aren't lip service from the very people sucking off their own abilities cocks but an OOU source speaking factually.

You just used authorial clarifications to argue that Kreia was accurate in her assessment of the ancient sith; I suppose you'll now ignore the author clarification that this quote in question is hyperbolic?

What the "full potency" of his Force storm really did was create a tear a few kilometers in diameter; certainly impressive, but nothing compared to a being who could tear apart "the fabric of the universe".

No, Luke in Dark Empire interrupted Sheev's storm and let it consume him while he and his anemic sister ran like little children. You would be wise to join them. There are plenty of sources which state the opposite, that Sheev was too powerful for them and he defeated himself with the storm - I'll post these later unless someone wants to volunteer in the meantime.

How does that contradict what I said? Luke defeated Palpatine conventionally, but as of DE could not deal with his Force storms alone. If Sidious could do what Force storms could do without that specific technique that summons energy from hyperspace, he wouldn't need to use Force storms in the first place. Therefore, you would have a stronger (albeit still dubious) position arguing that Force storms can defeat the Son, not that Sidious is outright more powerful.

So let's summarize:

  • Multiple quotes say that the Father > Sidious, only one of which ILS responded to.
  • The Son was a threat to the fabric of the universe according to The Father, who has known the Son for billions(?) of years.
  • ILS thinks authorial clarifications count; the author clarified that Siidous couldn't really consume all of space, so instead we have the full potency of his most haxxed technique consuming the radius of a few kilometers in comparison to the Son's universal threat.
  • Sidious was not able to defeat a mildly-amped DE Luke without the use of Force storms (which are a specific power that release energy from hyperspace that Sidious worked on for decades), while a severely below-prime Abeloth was far more powerful than FotJ Luke.


Oh, and trying to dismiss the credibility of the Father while citing 1) Luke's speculations about Ragnos despite admitting he doesn't know what he could do, 2) Kreia's speculations about ancient sith, and 3) an in-universe source compiled by New Republic historians is just hilarious.


Last edited by The Ellimist on September 14th 2019, 8:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 8:03 pm
@Azronger your thoughts?
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 8:10 pm
The low-quality trolling in this thread has me like
Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Giphy
Reynard (Ethanion)
Reynard (Ethanion)

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 8:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Because this is canon AND legends, canon has no hierarchy of canonical material.
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Reynard (Ethanion)
Reynard (Ethanion)

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 8:44 pm
Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 72ebe710 Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Ff3eaf10
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Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 10:31 pm
Hmm. Interesting question.

Who would win, a guy who has easily destroyed the space time continuum and altered dimensions or a guy who's best feats are deactivating a lightsaber and turning into a flying dinosaur?


Great question tbh.
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

on September 14th 2019, 10:48 pm
Who would win, a God, or a wrinkly old man younger than the God?
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Darth Sidious vs The Son - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs The Son

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