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by MasterCilghal
on July 31st 2019, 5:15 pm
 
Search in: Finished Suspect Showdowns (SS)
Topic: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)
Replies: 157
Views: 6467

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

[size=19]Premises[/size]
[size=15]Before introducing my response I wanted to point out a few things about this debate and this post. In the beginning, I didn’t think I was going to continue this debate but I menaged to solve my personal problems. In the mean time, I wanted to greatly thank @Meatpants for stepping in and creating a marvelous post, which basically contained what I would have said abou Traya. to all those who are reading, Consider this post a “continuation” to MP’s one that will address the parts he didn’t (particularly Jaina and Jaden Korr). Having said that, let’s begin, and I hope you all enjoy my post. [/size]

[size=19]Counter 1: “the combat equal of none”[/size]


@Xolthol wrote:[size=15]What this quote gives us to know ? First of all, we learn that at this time, Jaina is the "combat equal" of anyone [/size]
[*]in the Jedi order.














[*]

[size=15]Thank you, I hadn’t noticed it. [/size]
[size=15] Jokes aside, this statement, even in and of itself doesn’t tell us anything and i’ll give you a very simple explanation for why it it simply an hyperbole and cannot be taken literally. “The equal of anyone” refers to all members of the Jedi order, but there is no way Jaina could be the equal of, for example, Kyle Katarn and a padawan at the same time, considering that the two are on completely different levels in skill, it would be an illogical idea. Rather it is a vague way to tell the readers that Jaina is skilled, that’s all. [/size]

@Xolthol wrote:[size=15]Obviously she cannot be at the same time the equal of  younglings and the equal of masters... The quote refer to the fact that she is the equal to any top fighting Jedi masters, which include:  Kyp Durron,  Saba Sebatyne, Kyle Katarn[/size]


[size=15]Not sure how you can come to this conclusion. It could very well refer to a yougling if we are to take it at face value. Coming to this conclusion requires too much assumption; Katarn, Saba and Kyp aren’t even mentioned. I would agree with you if the quote were something like“among the best in the order”, but this is far too speculative. [/size]
[size=15]if this argument doesn’t convince you, I can assure you the next one will be more than sufficient. [/size]

@Xolthol wrote:But this reasonning is clearly false based on a simple fact. During the time of FotJ Luke Skywalker wasn't in the Jedi Order. He left in exile because he think that he had failed his duty by letting his nephew Jacen Solo becoming the sith lord Darth Caedus. So he isn't in the Order anymore and the quote is still valid.


[size=15]This is objectively wrong. Luke had just resumed his position as the GM in the previous book, ascension. Here is a statement from the essential reader’s companion’s description of the book’s plot that specifically says Luke resumes his title as GM after his return and Coruscant ( which he could do given that Chief Daala had recently been removed from office): [/size]
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[size=15]As you correctly pointed out, Jaina’s power pales in comparison to Luke’s and is therefore stupid  to conclude the quote applies to him, which it would if you were to take it seriously.[/size]

@Xolthol wrote:I have used "at least" in order to made explain something that must be taking into account: the quote undirectly explain that Jaina is the above most of the members of the jedi order by using the rethoric figure which made her equal to the top jedi of the order.

[size=15]Exactly, You’re proving my own point. ( and contradicting yourself) ,that statement is just a figure of speech, however, as I already proved it’s both far too vague and can simply be dismissed with the Luke skywalker argument I presented. [/size]
[size=15] Honestly, I’m surprised you brought it up considering that it has been debunked so many times in the past.[/size]


[size=24]Counter 2: Jaden Korr[/size]
[size=15]I found the Jaden scaling you presented to be very interesting ( although I already knew it since I read the books). However, not only are there a few issues with it, but I also fail to see how it is linked to Jaina herself. I’ll divide this in 3 parts: (1) addressing the issues in the Jaden scaling, (2)addressing the fight between Boba and Vader, and (3) negating Jaina’s involvement in this whole scaling. [/size]

[size=15]1-issues in the Jaden scaling [/size]

@Xolthol wrote:Even though they are clone, they can use the Force in pretty impressive way.


[size=15]I don’t get how being a clone is a problem to one’s force connection. Could you please explain this a bit more in depth? [/size]

@Xolthol wrote:[size=15]This feat can be seen as not really impressive but when you look cautionly, it is really insane. First of all, Runner didn't push the speeder all the time, he just give it the first (and only) impulse. Then the speeder wasn't flying at all, he was sliding on the ground so the physical friction must had take a important part of the initial energy. Last but clearly not least the speeder hit a building and because of this the building half collapsed. And this wasn't because of some explosion: Metal shrieked and bent. Glass shattered this was only because of the sheer speed and weight of the speeder. [/size]
[size=15]Basically, what he have done here prove that he can easily with a single push half-destroy a building. And he is far from working at his full power.[/size]

[size=15]Very good feat indeed. However, it doesn’t prove he can destroy a building of even half of it. It was the speeder itself which caused the damage by impacting on the building, not Soldier’s own power. What I don’t understand is why you didn’t mention the hospital feat, which to me seems far more impressive. [/size]

@Xolthol wrote:Basically, you can see that even the combine might of the two clones isn't enough to defeat in a sheer TK competiton Jaden Korr.


[size=15]Jaden did indeed menage to TK stalemate the two clones, however i find it a stretch to argue he was equal, let alone superior to the two clones. In fact, initially, he struggles against Soldier alone:[/size]

[size=15]The clone snarled, held up a hand, palm outward, and met Jaden’s blast with his own. Power pressed against power and Jaden and the clone eyed each other across the landing, jaws fixed, eyes locked, neither gaining the advantage."[/size]
[size=15]―Star Wars Riptide[/size]


[size=15]Later, in the passage you presented, it Jaden makes it clear that, sooner or later, he  would have been overwhelmed by the combined power of the two clones, not to mention the incredible amount of effort required to him in order to hold them off: [/size]
[size=15]Jaden held out his left hand—his maimed hand—at the last moment, intercepted the blast, and answered with his own power. The clone’s push caused him to stagger, but he nested himself in the Force and stood his ground against both clones. He held his hands out, the clones’ power pressing at him from right angles. The yellow line of his lightsaber, which he still held in his left had, sizzled before his eyes. The effort squeezed sweat from him, taxed mind and body. He took a step back, another, and found himself pressed against the wall. He could not hold out for long.[/size]
[size=15]-Riptide[/size]


[size=15]Overall, You cannot possibly argue Jaden is superior to the two clones combined. All evidence points to him being unable to hold them off forever. The best he can possibly achieve ( and that  has  been shown achieving ) against them is a stalemate. I really don’t understand why you came to this conclusion. Other than that I agree with everything that was presented, Jaden is a truly impressive jedi. [/size]


[size=15]2-addressing Fett vs Vader and Jaden’s own skill [/size]

@Xolthol wrote:[size=15]If you want to argue that  sheer power isn't everything in a fight, I will agree, but Jaden is far from being a shitty fighter. In fact he is exactly the opposite: he is an awesome fighter. [/size]
[size=15]Indeed he faced and defeat Boba Fett (you know, the guy who fought against Vader and survive)[/size]


[size=15]I acknowledge the Boba fett feat is extremely impressive for Jaden, that I won’t deny. However, I found a lot of issues with the fights you provided, which to me point to a lack of a deep research on your part. the first of the two fights, which comes from Star Wars tales #11, was never canon even before Disney came in, and we can therefore dismiss it completely. [/size]

Basically, everything except those items marked with an “Infinity” logo (i.e. the Star Wars Tales comics) is considered canon.”-Sue Rostoni, Lucas Books and Lucas Licensing Managing Editor, Starwars.com May 30, 2003


[size=16] In the latter example, there are a great deal of circumstances:Vader was looking for a chest which he desperately needed and that Boba was carrying, meaning he wasn’t going all out against him from the start (and that’s basically why Boba lasts so long) . It’s downright stated by Vader himself. Furthermore Vader was fairly overconfident, which further added to the apparent “difficulty” (he still beat him pretty easily every time he menato close the distance)  he was experiencing when facing the renowned bounty hunter. His vast superiority over Fett is unquestionable. [/size]


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[size=16]This fight also takes place around 3 BBY. Don’t forget that Vader still had to go through a massive growth in regards to his combat skill, in fact he is described as a far more capable opponent in ESB than he was in ANH ( which is later than the events in the comic, I might add)and don’t forget that around this time period he was struggling against not-particularly-impressive jedi like An’ya Kuro. [/size]
[size=16]Here is the statement I was talking about: [/size]

[size=16]Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.[/size]
[size=16]-insider #62[/size]


[size=16]Ultimately, Jaden’s feat is certainly impressive,but using Vader as an example doesn’t prove anything, since his enormous superiority over Boba while vastly before his prime is pretty much undeniable. Plus there’s the fact that Boba was far older when he faced Jaden. [/size]
[size=16]This leads me into my next point: is Jaden truly a great fighter, as you are suggesting? [/size]
[size=16]Unfortunately the all indications are to the contrary or at least not quite as great as you are suggesting.  Jaden’s performance when engaged in a lightsaber duel, at least in his prime, isn’t all that impressive. First, in crosscurrent, he only menages to achieve a stalemate against and injured jedi master Relin, a random Jedi from the old republic:[/size]
 

[size=15]Khedryn did not hesitate and fired a series of blaster shots. The intruder's lightsaber turned from line to blurred circle as he weaved a defense that deflected each shot into the bulkheads.[/size]
[size=15]"Stay back," Jaden said to Khedryn. He augmented his speed with the Force and rushed forward, feinting high and stabbing low.[/size]
[size=15]Parrying the low stab as he sidestepped, the intruder spun into a reverse strike at Jaden's head. Jaden interposed his blade, met the man's hard eyes through the transparisteel of his helmet, and put a Force-augmented kick into his abdomen.[/size]
[size=15]The impact slammed the intruder into the wall, elicited a wince and a grunt of pain. He doubled over for a moment, favoring his side. Taking advantage of the opening, Jaden unleashed an overhand slash, but the man spun aside and Jaden's blade cut a black groove in the bulkhead.[/size]
[size=15]Jaden backflipped high into the air to avoid the intruder's reverse backslash and landed on the other side of the corridor, three meters away, trapping the intruder between Jaden on the one side and Khedryn on the other.[/size]
[size=15]Jaden could not quite place the man's fighting style. He had seen nothing like it before."[/size]
[size=15]Star Wars: Crosscurrent[/size]


[size=15]Yes, I am aware that Jaden “could not quite place the man’s fighting style”, but it is equally true this lack of knowledge would have gone either ways, especially considering that the NJO developed new fighting styles completely unknown to the old jedi. this jedi has no particular accolades of feats that point to an unusually high level of skill. [/size]
[size=15]Overall, Jaden is far too inconsistent to truly declare him a great fighter, you’ll have to come up with more than an isolated instance. But that’s not so relevant to this debate. Let’s get to the next point. [/size]

[size=15]3- Jaina solo?! [/size]
 
@Xolthol wrote:As shown in the previous part, Jaina is around Kyp/Kyle/Saba level of fighter. So she is clearly above someone as powerful as Jaden Korr.


[size=15]You have proved it through a wrong interpretation of a quote that was not intended to be taken the way you did and that i already debunked in its entirety. In fact, My reaction after reading this was like: “ ok interesting, but  what does Jaina have to do with all this?”. Simply put, You haven’t proven she is on par with Saba or Kyle in any way, and as such this scaling falls apart completely. [/size]
[size=15]But let’s, for a moment, pretend she is on that level. You still haven’t provided any valid proof[/size]
[size=15] that Saba and Kyle (let’s exclude Kyp for obvious reasons) are Jaden’s superiors. I imagine this assumption is based on the fact that the two are masters while Jaden is only a Knight ( because Jaden actually has some feats that exceed both, like the aforementioned Boba Fett fight) . In case this comes up as an argument, I’ll give a simple counter to it:  [/size]
[size=15]1-being in a different rank doesn’t necessarily speak to one’s superiority to those ranked beneath said jedi, this applies specifically in the NJO, as seen in monologue from Jacen: [/size]


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[size=15]-source: TUF[/size]

[size=15]2- Jaden was actually offered the rank of master but he refused due to personal reasons. [/size]

[size=15]Overall, you have provided nothing that scales Jaina above Jaden in any meaningful way, except a weird quote that I’ve already debunked.  [/size]

 [size=24]Conclusions[/size]
[size=15]1- in stark contrast to what you provided, Traya is a great fighter and an extremely powerful force user based on her scaling from the three masters on Dantooine ( which MP has already addressed and that I will address further in my response to your next post) [/size]
[size=15]2- Jaina’s only major accolade is nothing more than a wired way to say that she’s skilled in her own right, but does not apply in the way you say. [/size]
[size=15]3- Jaina doesn’t get any scaling from Jaden Korr. [/size]
[size=15]4- all my previous arguments about Jaina’s embarrassing showings and her inability to stand against Traya’s drain still stand. [/size]

[size=15]Good luck @Xolthol with your response. [/size]

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