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Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ?

on August 25th 2019, 6:10 am
Very disappointed if that was the big growth that has been lauded around. In addition to ^

1. Caedus never shows the ability to command his forces in such a fashion. Despite there being a great many instances where doing so would have been imperative. 

2. You would have to prove this swell outweighs the amp he got from his daughter being in danger.

3. Battle meditation does not scale to other abilities. Bastilla had better BM than Revan. He's going to clown her in a fight though. Even if it did. Oh no Caedus shifted the outcome of a war. He's now Lord Kaan level.
MasterCilghal
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on August 25th 2019, 6:18 am
@Ziggy @Greysentinel365 I will respond you both very soon.
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on August 25th 2019, 6:34 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:Very disappointed if that was the big growth that has been lauded around. In addition to ^

1. Caedus never shows the ability to command his forces in such a fashion. Despite there being a great many instances where doing so would have been imperative. 

2. You would have to prove this swell outweighs the amp he got from his daughter being in danger.

3. Battle meditation does not scale to other abilities. Bastilla had better BM than Revan. He's going to clown her in a fight though. Even if it did. Oh no Caedus shifted the outcome of a war. He's now Lord Kaan level.

Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ? - Page 2 Source


What we've learned.

Jacen probably didn't experience an overall increase of power, like other characters in similar situations, he would have probably sensed a transformation if he did.  His battle mediation did get better, but that doesn't scale well to overall power.  It doesn't supersede the amp he gets against Aurra,  cover what Aurra left behind in her decadence or the gap in power between Ayla Secura and her.
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on August 25th 2019, 6:57 am
@Ziggy wrote:
@MasterCilghal wrote: peak Caedus is far, far more powerful than tempest Caedus.

Nah not really. 

I doubt he's even moderately more powerful. Just maybe a little. 

The quote from the "Essential" readers companion is being used facetiously. And what you're implying doesn't well reflect the events in the book which certainly doesn't indicate substantial growth :

Killing didn’t get any easier. He was just getting better at it. But it still didn’t make sense. He rubbed his cheek, and the stubble rasped audibly under his fingers. Mara hadn’t been the most precious thing in his life. In recent weeks, she’d changed from being his only friend to just someone else who didn’t trust him and was getting in his way.

She was his aunt. She was family. When his role in her death became known—it had to be when, but not now, not anytime soon—the shock and hatred would tear apart what was left of the Skywalker and Solo families. Maybe even Niathal, and all the others who understood that securing peace was a dirty business, would be disgusted. I just killed my aunt. I grew up with her. She was there for me. We fought a war together. I have to face her son. I have to face Ben. What have I done?

His stomach rumbled. How could he possibly be hungry at a time like this? 

He will immortalise his love.

Stupid knotted tassels, all kinds of ancient Sith prophecies that would come to pass when the new Dark Lord was ready to take up his mantle and usher in a golden age of justice, order, and peace. The key had been turned—and this was what the prophecy was supposed to mean—by Jacen killing what he most loved. He’d killed Mara, and Nelani, and Fett’s daughter, and chaotic unjust democracy, and he loved none of those. He’d tried to kill Lumiya more than once. She seemed to think that was part of the job description for Sith acolytes.

So Jacen didn’t believe it. And if Mara hadn’t been trying to kill him to begin with, he would have seen it even more as a life thrown carelessly away.

The fabric of existence didn’t seem to have changed enough. That shift should have been cataclysmic, and although he was too much of a pragmatist to think he could raise his fists to the sky and call down lightning to energise a mighty soul, he expected to be able to taste the spiritual and existential transformation.”

He was afraid. However certain he’d been a few hours ago that Mara was to be the one destined to die, it didn’t make sense in the context of the prophecy. He didn’t feel different, either. Did that mean he still had to kill someone else? He’d been so certain it would all be over now. The sense of anticlimax was almost enough to make him sob.

Then he felt a presence. He leaned his head against the side of the cockpit canopy, and gazing up at him from the nightmarish planet surrounding his fighter was Lumiya. Jacen popped the seal. “I’m surprised you could be bothered to come and find me, after what happened.” “You now need to be seen.” Lumiya had a new serenity about her. As ever, she still seemed to take no offense at him for trying to kill her again. “Your new existence has started, Dark Lord.” “Really?” The pain in his shoulder gnawed at him like an animal tearing his flesh.“I don’t feel very lordly.

“I assure you it’s done. I felt it.”

She might have been humoring him. He shifted in his seat to ease the assortment of bruises. " I'll be looking for further proof.” “Stop arguing with the Force and pay attention to what you have to do next.

- Sacrfice LOTF


Compare that with an actual power transformation brought upon killing a loved one : 

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.
He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.
He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer.

- Malgus : Decieved 

So I doubt there was a huge increase and doesn't prevent him from further comparisons to Aurra. Certainly, as Aurra isn't in her prime in Tempest. And Ayla is more powerful than that still. So the match-up here stands.  

As for his battle meditation, it's not anywhere near the point where he has the entire military unit under his thumb as Palpatine did. But rather he uses it to influence the outcome of separate battles as they happen in the same way Bastilla Shan could.  For two, Battle Meditation doesn't reliably scale with combat power.

Yeah, very clever misdirection Ziggy. Surely there is no more of a reliable indication of massive surges of power by being forced to kill your loved ones by yourself than by comparison to a completely different entity

Malgus is a Sith Lord. The guy has spent his entire life embracing the very fundamental tenets of the dark side like betrayal, nihilism, anger, fury etc. The only thing that has been "holding him back" is his connection to his lover. That gives him a link to the light side of the force, making his connection to the dark side lesser than it could be. Hence, the moment he severs that connection, it immediately opens him to the full power of the dark side. He is no longer tethered to the light side or emotions that are explicitly stated to fuel the light side like love or empathy.

You seem to not understand that Jacen is "not" fundamentally a Sith Lord. Till that point he has been a Jedi Knight, and has been taught of the power of love by the new Jedi Order. The dark side does not naturally come to him, that means that all the tenets of it too, are not familiar to him. So yeah, on being forced to kill his loved ones, he is not likely to just "embrace" the full power of the dark side, because there is no evidence yet that he has embraced the emotional aspects of it yet. It is more likely to cause him confusion or emotional turmoil than it is to give him emotional clarity, something that is absolutely critical to embrace the force, from even the light.

"She was his aunt. She was family. When his role in her death became known—it had to be when, but not now, not anytime soon—the shock and hatred would tear apart what was left of the Skywalker and Solo families. Maybe even Niathal, and all the others who understood that securing peace was a dirty business, would be disgusted. I just killed my aunt. I grew up with her. She was there for me. We fought a war together. I have to face her son. I have to face Ben. What have I done?"

Yeah, it seems like he is a little bit conflicted, isn't it?

On the other hand, your flippant dismissal of the Essential Readers Companion quote is probably even more harmful to your stance than the above argument.

Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ? - Page 2 Af61f610






So yeah, you have him "coldly feigning innocence", long after the sequence of events that you cited is over. Contrast that to

"I have to face her son. I have to face Ben. What have I done?"

So, massive surprise, the moment he chooses to act like Sith scum, the moment he chooses to "sever" his connections to the light side of the force, the moment he decides to embrace the dark side rather than think about Sith prophecies his power increases considerably. His mentality is that of a Sith Lord, thus his power too changes by him becoming a proper Sith Lord, not being one for the sake of it.
MasterCilghal
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on August 25th 2019, 7:09 am
@Ziggy 

1- the book does not contradict the ERC. It is stated in both sources that only Lumiya sensed this shift in power. Why? Because Jacen was extremely conflicted, he hadn’t yet accepted his destiny as a Sith Lord, and this is without even mentioning he was in very bad physical condition , so much so that he had to keep a healing trance, as noted in the book. In fact, when he accepts it, here is what the book says: 


It's true. Lumiya was right. Oh, this is exquisite. I was blind before. How did I ever think I could succeed as a commander without this?

Lumiya had promised him a battlefield awareness and judgment that made ordinary battle meditation look like a finger painting-to sense and coordinate by the power of his mind and will alone, a power that only came to fruition in the Master of the Sith.

It's me. It really is. It was Mara's sacrifice after all, I accept that now.

But I still don't understand the prophecy. And I don't like what I can't understand.

He was a Sith Lord. Now his work could truly begin.

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice

2- i never argued BM correlates directly into power, nor that he’s on par with the emperor in this regard. Not sure why you and Grey came to this conclusion. 

Conclusion: what have I learned? That I should leave this forum.
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on August 25th 2019, 7:25 am
Coolstorybros

The contentions Grey & I have laid out have yet to be answered. 

He gained power from starting to act like a Sith; as opposed to a Jedi and is now using the Darkside

Ok, why does this supersede his amp against Aurra - when he's embracing the Darkside in that fight - bar using it's most overtly expressive power; lighting?  Jacen in that fight is the one were comparing him to.  And even then I'm not denying Growth, there's just still not much to imply the growth is "considerable" his talents with battle mediation are what you can expect from Kaan, Bastilla Shan and Nomi Sunraider types. Nothing to splooge your load over in other words. And it is empirically contradicted in the LOTF books that he can not influence his entire military unit like Palpatine could.
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on August 25th 2019, 7:40 am
@Ziggy wrote:The contentions Grey & I have laid out have yet to be answered. 

He gained power from starting to act like a Sith; as opposed to a Jedi and is now using the Darkside
No, the shift in power after killing Mara did take place, Lumiya downright states she sensed it. Jaden could not because he was not in the right condition to feel it. Again, as I and LOTL have laid out he was conflicted and in a bad physical condition. He only realized it after accepting Mara’s death. It’s quite simple. 
As for the second part, the ERC states “Jacen feels his power in he dark side swell”, which indicates a rather significant growth, which correlates directly ( and stated in the same source) with his growth in using BM. That’s it.
As for the comparison with the Amp he obtained against Aurra, I can ask you the same question. How big was it? And even then he didn’t even use his full night during the fight so it’s irrelevant anyway.


Last edited by MasterCilghal on August 25th 2019, 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Greysentinel365
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on August 25th 2019, 7:43 am
Oh for gods sake. Fine. Let's look at what happens the Caedus after he talks to Ben then shall we

I see it now. I know what I loved most and what had to be killed.
 
Jacen had laid on his bunk for hours, trying to slot the last piece into the puzzle that tormented him. It was the prophecy. It didn't fit.
 
He will immortalize his love.
 
It was only when Jacen considered that he might not refer to himself that he started down a complex path that showed the prophecy in its multifaceted complexity. It didn't just have one meaning: it had many.
 
And this is why I'm now Lord of the Sith.
 
There'd been no pyrotechnics, and no cataclysmic shift in the Force; and yet, from where he stood now, Jacen looked back and saw a landscape that had changed utterly. It had changed footstep by footstep, act by act, death by death, a change so gradual and incremental that he hardly noticed its passage until-
 
Until now.
 
He wasn't the same Jacen Solo who was shocked when Lumiya had told him he was destined to be a Sith Lord.


- LotF Sacrifice 


The passage makes clear that it wasn't a big growth or a climactic shift. it's been constant and incremental (denoting a small positive or negative change in a variable quantity or function.) and only now is Jacen even noticing it (it was that small).

And so with this final act, Jacen has incrementally had his power swell (which by definition does not denote a large increase. Just an increase) to just inch him over the line the get his Lord Kaan level BM.

Whoop. 

So thanks for that. Looking at this moment has made it abundantly clear that Jacen barely grew at all.

Aalya wins.
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on August 25th 2019, 7:49 am
And even then he didn’t even use his full night during the fight so it’s irrelevant anyway.

Hi. It's reality knocking


Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.

- LotF Tempest
MasterCilghal
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on August 25th 2019, 8:02 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:
And even then he didn’t even use his full night during the fight so it’s irrelevant anyway.

Hi. It's reality knocking


Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.

- LotF Tempest
Since when is “opening himself fully to the force” an amp? This is without even mentioning he was being rather successful at dominating her mentally. His focus was broken when she activated her detonator. I was referring to the actual, physical fight. It’s mentioned that Allana’s presence specifically prevented him from using the dark side. 




tempest wrote:Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.
That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.
"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."



This happens on two instances and is the only reason for Sing’s succes. But anyway don’t expect a response to your next posts. I see you guys are just unreasonable. The idea of Caedus being Aaya’s Inferior is contradicted by their feats.
Greysentinel365
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on August 25th 2019, 8:08 am
Lol all you posted was Caedus about to use lightning. Lightning specifically. That does not preclude him using his full power beforehand. Which he definitively does.
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on August 25th 2019, 8:20 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:Lol all you posted was Caedus about to use lightning. Lightning specifically. That does not preclude him using his full power beforehand. Which he definitively does.
 it specifically states he wasn’t  using the dark side, which in this case   manifested itself through force lightning. He wasn’t using his anger before. 
Look, when Caedus opens himself fully to the force he starts dominating Aurra sing to the point where she just isn’t strong enough to resist. By contrast, when he can’t use the dark side (or more precisely, decides not to because of Allana’s presence) and amp himself through his anger he’s unable to do so. 
Regardless, This debate is pointless. Even if the Aurra fight were as you say, a simple comparison of other feats would be enough to place him far above Aayla. 
Btw, sorry if I came off as rude in some way.
Greysentinel365
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on August 25th 2019, 8:34 am
 it specifically states he wasn’t  using the dark side, which in this case  

No. It states he wasn't using lightning. A quote from the start of the fight makes it clear he is using the dark side to it's fullest.

Notably


LotF Tempest wrote:Wait.
 
Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
.....
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. 


So let's take stock.

Jacen opens himself fully to the Dark Side. Drawing on his fear for Allana, anger and hate. He is at full power. This is inarguable.

Despite taking Sing by surprise it is still taking all his concentration to hold her in place. He cannot ragdoll her or blast her or anything of the like. He has to slowly approach with his full power holding her down to strike.

Even then Sing breaks out of his hold and triggers the detonator. The text then notes that even the tiniest flash of the detonator is enough to shatter Caedus' concentration.

Caedus absolutely did use his full power + an emotional amp + the element of surprise on Aurra. Even then it took all he had to hold her he couldn't attack her and she broke free. And yes she did break free hence the smile and being able to trigger the detonator despite Jacens command. The distraction is not what freed her. 

Regardless, This debate is pointless. Even if the Aurra fight were as you say, a simple comparison of other feats would be enough to place him far above Aayla. 


A feats comparison is moot when we have an example of direct contention. Of Aurra breaking out of Jacen's full power despite poor circumstances against her.
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on August 25th 2019, 9:01 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:So let's take stock.

Jacen opens himself fully to the Dark Side. Drawing on his fear for Allana, anger and hate. He is at full power. This is inarguable.

Despite taking Sing by surprise it is still taking all his concentration to hold her in place. He cannot ragdoll her or blast her or anything of the like. He has to slowly approach with his full power holding her down to strike.

Even then Sing breaks out of his hold and triggers the detonator. The text then notes that even the tiniest flash of the detonator is enough to shatter Caedus' concentration.

Caedus absolutely did use his full power + an emotional amp + the element of surprise on Aurra. Even then it took all he had to hold her he couldn't attack her and she broke free. And yes she did break free hence the smile and being able to trigger the detonator despite Jacens command. The distraction is not what freed her 
1- ok, fine, the first part is inarguable. 
2- as far as I can see she never broke free until Jacen’s concentration was broken, and the element of surprise wasn’t really all that important when you consider that she had the chance to free herself. It’s like Caedus vs Luke, Caedus was taken off guard by his TK, but no one argues his vast inferior to Luke because Caedus just didn’t have the strength to free himself. 
3-Jacen was still concentrating on keeping the pressure on her mind when the detonator exploded so I don’t see how she could have freed herself from his domination. If I understand correctly, he wasn’t freezing her in place physically but merely mentally. 
4- him drawing on his anger is something that would come into play in any fight (given he’s a Sith Lord),
 And I’m not sure how relevant the emotional amp you are mentioning is. It’s unquantifiable and therefore unimportant. 





@Greysentinel365 wrote:A feats comparison is moot when we have an example of direct contention. Of Aurra breaking out of Jacen's full power despite poor circumstances against he
Well remember that, regardless of the circumstances of the Aurra fight, outliers do exist. By this same token, I could argue Viun Galaan or Lumiya are comparable to Luke Skywalker. Caedus has vastly superior feats, hype and accolades than Aayla and a single instance that kinda ( Caedus is still decisively superior to Aurra, that’s unquestionable) proves otherwise doesn’t convince me at all. Plus this is tempest Caedus.
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Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ?

on August 25th 2019, 11:09 am
Caedus stomp easily
Greysentinel365
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on August 25th 2019, 7:51 pm
Jacen immobilized her or at least was trying to. Yet Aurra was able to talk and arm the detonator. She broke free. Despite Caedus' full power.

Jacen was still concentrating on keeping the pressure on her mind when the detonator exploded so I don’t see how she could have freed herself from his domination. If I understand correctly, he wasn’t freezing her in place physically but merely mentally. 

If Jacen was using all his power to freeze her and Aurra capable of moving...... Well that says it all doesn't it. 

him drawing on his anger is something that would come into play in any fight (given he’s a Sith Lord),
 And I’m not sure how relevant the emotional amp you are mentioning is. It’s unquantifiable and therefore unimportant. 

This desperation is getting old. People get amped when the ones they love are in danger. The text it self says Jacen is drawing power from emotion brought up by this circumstance he would have access to normally. Fear amps are a very common and established thing in SW and the fact you're trying to handwave one shows wreaks of desperation. 


Well remember that, regardless of the circumstances of the Aurra fight, outliers do exist. By this same token, I could argue Viun Galaan or Lumiya are comparable to Luke Skywalker. Caedus has vastly superior feats, hype and accolades than Aayla and a single instance that kinda ( Caedus is still decisively superior to Aurra, that’s unquestionable) proves otherwise doesn’t convince me at all. 
Outliers are something that is not the norm. Viun only fights Luke once and he laughs at him. Lumiya has only fought Luke early on and when he's an emotional wreck from Mara. In order to prove the Aurra fight is an outlier you'll have to post something to prove this. I know Caedus fans have trouble with this


Plus this is tempest Caedus.

Debunked him getting any meaningful increase above.

Point stands.
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on August 25th 2019, 9:26 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Jacen one shots.
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on August 26th 2019, 7:53 pm
I think no vs thread has ever shown the dangers of scaling like this thread has.
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on August 26th 2019, 10:13 pm
So suddenly Luke smiling means he’s toying?
Greysentinel365
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on August 27th 2019, 2:29 am
No. Luke laughing at his feeble attempt to counter him and easily beating him back while smiling indicates he toying.

Besides. If Viun was actually capable of challenging Luke in any way you would think that would you know, actually worry or concern him in some way.

And yet 5 books later



"We haven't." Luke watched Korelei pause in the duct. Perhaps sensing the blaster in his hand, she waved several of her followers ahead of her. "She's the first Sith who actually worries me."

- Apocalypse 
 Korelei is the first Sith that actually worries Luke. 


So yeah Viun was no threat to Luke, he toyed, laughed at and beat him back easily.
MasterCilghal
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on August 27th 2019, 2:47 am
That’s because Luke never faced Vol
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on August 27th 2019, 2:55 am
Caedus cucked again
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on August 27th 2019, 2:58 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:Outliers are something that is not the norm. Viun only fights Luke once and he laughs at him. Lumiya has only fought Luke early on and when he's an emotional wreck from Mara. In order to prove the Aurra fight is an outlier you'll have to post something to prove this. I know Caedus fans have trouble with this
I don’t think it’s difficult to explain why. As I already said, Caedus has vastly better feats than the Aurra one, such as easily beating Katarn and a strike team, fooling Luke with his illusions, moving ships, touching the minds of all inhabitants of Fondor and so on. 


As for the power growth thing,  you haven’t  debunked much, given that Caedus is stated to literally grow everyday. But i’m got gonna respond, from now on, i just don’t have the mental strength to do it. 
MasterCilghal
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on August 27th 2019, 3:11 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:The passage makes clear that it wasn't a big growth or a climactic shift. it's been constant and incremental (denoting a small positive or negative change in a variable quantity or function.) and only now is Jacen even noticing it (it was that small).

And so with this final act, Jacen has incrementally had his power swell (which by definition does not denote a large increase. Just an increase) to just inch him over the line the get his Lord Kaan level BM.
Do you realize the novel states “a landscape that had changed utterly”? Means the increase, albeit gradual, was rather massive. I don’t know what makes you think it was small. Regardless, the ERC presents an out of universe and therefore objective prospective that points to an increase after Mara’s death, hence the battle meditation. I only gave my response because I felt this needed to be addressed.  when I realize a debate is getting on my nerves I understand it’s time to stop replying, even if I have counters. Sorry
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Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ?

on August 28th 2019, 5:48 pm
So we've established a small power increase after Mara's death and larger increase over time, which may refer to the beginning of the series.

Great. Can you prove the difference is great between Tempest and Sacrifice? Which are months apart at best?

Can you prove he gained much after killing Mara, when he spent most of his sith career being in conflict about his actions?

Can you prove that the power increments supersede his force LSD againt Aurra, as he embraced the Darkside in that fight?

If so, can you prove it encompasses the gap between Ayla Secura and Sing in her prime, as she beat a better version of the assassin in more decisive fashion.

If not. I don't see how Jacen wins or decisively stomps like many suggest.
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Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ? - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ayla Secura ?

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