Suspect Insight Forums
We've moved to Discord! Join us here: https://discord.gg/b6fuSxa3uD
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
The Witness
The Witness

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

April 26th 2019, 7:54 am
@Arkhamasylum3
A barely hindered Anakin (someone who obviously has greater force potential than Starkiller) was not able to ragdoll Obi Wan, and only stalemated him with a force push. Thus  meaning his ability to use the force was not as strong when he faced Kenobi. But you are telling me a Starkiller with lesser force potential "on the brink of death", was able to conjure up extremely powerful lightning, enough to amp himself and defeat Vader?
Just sounds like PIS to me. But then again Starkiller has a lot of moments like that in those games.
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

April 26th 2019, 11:32 am
'Barely hindered' Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 39523600
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

April 26th 2019, 12:21 pm
@DeadlyJedi

A barely hindered Anakin (someone who obviously has greater force potential than Starkiller) was not able to ragdoll Obi Wan, and only stalemated him with a force push. wrote:

And your proof he was "barely hindered" is?

Thus meaning his ability to use the force was not as strong when he faced Kenobi. wrote:

Yes...

But you are telling me a Starkiller with lesser force potential "on the brink of death", was able to conjure up extremely powerful lightning, enough to amp himself and defeat Vader? Just sounds like PIS to me. But then again Starkiller has a lot of moments like that in those games. wrote:

Well, the most obvious conclusions we can draw are:

A) Anakin was not "barely hindered" which I believe is logical given there is no evidence supporting him being only barely hindered and the fact that he goes from being Sidious tier to being stalemated by Kenobi should indicate he was obviously massively hindered.

B) Vader isn't as powerful as ROTS Kenobi by TFU 2 which is perfectly logical given he was stalemated by a post-prime Kenobi in the same year that Starkiller defeated him.

The final thing I'm curious about is why you consider their respective Force Potential's relevant. The amount of power they could have isn't really relevant to the amount of power they do have and in that category, I think a case could easily be made for Starkiller.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 1st 2019, 4:39 pm
@Azronger Looks like I'm going to be the first to make an extensive case in favour of Malgus (By the way, sorry for my lateness in making this post, I'm lazy as hell but have wanted to make a Malgus>Vader argument for a while).

1) Confrontation Against The Strike Team


I'm going to make this perfectly clear before I begin. There's definitely an argument to be made that Malgus is indeed sub protag, one that's definitely more convincing than the opposite view on a surface level however I'm personally of the opinion that there are many interpretations based off the wealth of evidence we have available to us and not all of those lead to the conclusion that Malgus is beneath the protags. I've argued this stance for a while now and while I may not be capable of convincing you of it I'd like to make you at least entertain the possibility.

I think the biggest indicator of the context surrounding the engagement is provided in the Hero Of Tython's dialogue options which occur after the fight in which he notes that Malgus's lightsabre form is flawless, and that he only beat Malgus because he let anger and desperation cloud his fighting which caused him to falter at crucial moments in the fight (Note that Malgus's emotions are probably a result of the fact that he was about to be blown to high hell unless he disposed of the HOT). While there's obviously the Barsen'thor's comments about his superior force strength they aren't of consequence. We already know the HOT is superior to the Barsen'thor based off his accolades so if Malgus is superior to him he's also>the Barsen'thor. As for why we should take the more humble HOT's analysis of the fight compared to the arrogant musings of the Barsen'thor we can simply look at the events as they themselves occur.

Prior to the duel itself the Strike Team are thrown across the room by Malgus's telekinesis indicating he is more powerful than the combined might of the team. While you may try to play this off as a standard example of a passive barrier breach before the opponent can react this is clearly not the case. The protag recoils in surprise before Malgus launches the worlds most obvious force attack indicating it's not a standard barrier breach as the first instinct reaction of the protag would be to defend themselves after realising what Malgus is going to do.

2) Feats


As far as scaling goes somebody like @Azathoth, Lord of Chaos or @DarthAnt66 is obviously far better suited to give you a rundown of the long list of implications of Malgus being superior to the Barsen'thor and Hero Of Tython collectively I can give you a general outline. Stuff like scaling massively above Vivicar who's capable of telepathically dominating hundreds of Jedi, ("The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order,”) is insane and above the paygrade of someone like Vader. Malgus's performance against the Strike Team portrays him as more impressive than Vader, who gets stalemated by a post prime Kenobi and challenged by ESB Luke who both come up short next to the aforementioned scaling the HOT and Barsen'thor get.

In terms of application of telekinesis stuff like this:

He reached out with the Force as Razor continued its rise, tried to take it in his mental grasp. Its ascent slowed. He held forth both of his arms, made claws of his hands, and shouted with frustration as he sought to hold back the power of the ship’s thrusters.
He felt a tightness in his mind, the string of his power being drawn taut, stretching, stretching. He would not release the ship. Its thrusters began to whine. He held it, teeth gritted, sweat soaking his body, his breath a dry rattle through his respirator.
And then the string snapped and the ship flew free, lifting clear of the roof doors.


Impresses me more than anything Vader's done despite occurring more than a decade before his prime, during which Malgus was growing daily.

TL;DR: Malgus is not necessarily sub protag, being defeated as a result of his emotional state, with him being able to overpower the team's defences with TK and stonewall them in combat prior to anger and desperation clouding his judgement. Malgus also boasts generally superior combat and TK feats to Vader.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 1st 2019, 5:46 pm
SithArchaeologist wrote:
In-sidiousvader wrote:
viewing someone as a threat in a clearly combative sense should be applicable to be completely honest.

Sure, unless it can be proven to be paranoia. RotJ Luke is a confirmed superior to Vader and we all know how casually Sidious dominated Luke.

Yeh he dominated an unarmed Luke, who never intended to fight back.
avatar
MP
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 1st 2019, 5:54 pm
What? Luke actually attempted deflecting the lightning, and he failed. And you can't seriously think that Luke could have challenged Sidious to lightsaber combat and have a chance at winning?
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 1st 2019, 7:40 pm
To be fair, actual sources state Malgus fought both Republic and Imperial strike teams.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 1st 2019, 11:58 pm
@DC77

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Malgus11

This quote single-handedly kills the strike team feat for Malgus. There's no reason to assume any of them were at peak capacity after fighting through "a seemingly endless army of droids" whereas Malgus is confirmed to have prep. I could, of course, poke many more holes in your case, but unless you want to make this a long-winded debate, I'll just leave it at this for now.
avatar
LOTL

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 12:45 am
Nova wrote:The arguments presented so far haven't been very compelling. It isn't clear that Malgus actually is stronger than HoT or Barsen'thor, or that this would mean he's stronger than Vader. And the fact that Palpatine had a few nice things to say about him doesn't really give him any sort of decisive edge over Vader.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 3:11 pm
Its fine to think malgus wins, but lets not hump to the conclusion that the strike team are able to oneshot vader without any evidence
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 3:28 pm
Nobody ever said they could ISV...
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 5:22 pm
@LOTL Did you even read my post.

@Azronger You've yet to demonstrate why them fighting an army of droids would hinder the team in such a way that it'd be enough to turn the tide of the battle. I'm not seeing any reason to say they suffered from anything other than mild fatigue. Which other parts of my post did you take issue with (You don't have to make this a long winded discussion, just give me a general summary of what you disagree with and why)?
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 6:05 pm
DC77 wrote:@LOTL Did you even read my post.

@Azronger You've yet to demonstrate why them fighting an army of droids would hinder the team in such a way that it'd be enough to turn the tide of the battle. I'm not seeing any reason to say they suffered from anything other than mild fatigue. Which other parts of my post did you take issue with (You don't have to make this a long winded discussion, just give me a general summary of what you disagree with and why)?

Aren't you a "revan was Exhausted by Malak" supporter? Double Standard if you are.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 6:14 pm
Proof I am, until then I'm guilty of no double standard?
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 7:30 pm
"Caedus had painful superficial injuries he drew on as a source of power, so he was totes nowhere near his peak when he fought Katarn"

"Fighting through a virtually endless army of super droids has no noticeable effect tho"

look at who is being consistent Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 3750555731
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 7:52 pm
@in-sidiousvader

Aren't you a "revan was Exhausted by Malak" supporter? Double Standard if you are.

I mean it's not really a double standard given Marek's exhaustion was actually stated and not simply assumed by fans.

If you want to poke holes in DC77's arguments and accuse him of not being consistent do something like this:

ILS wrote:"Caedus had painful superficial injuries he drew on as a source of power, so he was totes nowhere near his peak when he fought Katarn"

"Fighting through a virtually endless army of super droids has no noticeable effect tho"

look at who is being consistent
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 7:56 pm
ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:@in-sidiousvader

Aren't you a "revan was Exhausted by Malak" supporter? Double Standard if you are.

I mean it's not really a double standard given Marek's exhaustion was actually stated and not simply assumed by fans.

If you want to poke holes in DC77's arguments and accuse him of not being consistent do something like this:

ILS wrote:"Caedus had painful superficial injuries he drew on as a source of power, so he was totes nowhere near his peak when he fought Katarn"

"Fighting through a virtually endless army of super droids has no noticeable effect tho"

look at who is being consistent

Are you Karking blind? I said "revan" being exhausted before he fought "Malak"...

Not everything I say is directed to wound your sub Shadow Guard Character Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 2266747095
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 2nd 2019, 8:17 pm
@in-sidiousvader

Are you Karking blind? I said "revan" being exhausted before he fought "Malak"...

It's 1am where I live and I'm bloody exhausted. Misread lol. Can you at least see how "Marek" could be confused with "Malak"?
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 3rd 2019, 12:16 pm
@ILS Given those injuries caused him to get his energy drained within 30 seconds of fighting and were mentioned in the text whether as the "Exhaustion" they might have suffered from fighting through armies (Force users fighting through armies has happened multiple times throughout the mythos) was implied nowhere I'm guilty of no double standard. Nice try though.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 3rd 2019, 1:12 pm
DC77 wrote:@ILS Given those injuries caused him to get his energy drained within 30 seconds of fighting and were mentioned in the text whether as the "Exhaustion"  they might have suffered from fighting through armies (Force users fighting through armies has happened multiple times throughout the mythos) was implied nowhere I'm guilty of no double standard. Nice try though.
Can you prove that Caedus was drained of his energy within 30 seconds of fighting and also that it was his prior injuries that caused this?
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

May 3rd 2019, 1:57 pm
@ILS

Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke.

-Legacy Of The Force: Fury

Caedus's injuries were specifically credited as the reason he was getting beaten down by fodder Jedi, why his stamina and concentration were slipping and why he was getting hit with blaster bolts.That and the quote saying the duel duel (Which was about 30 seconds long) had taxed Caedus.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

November 5th 2019, 8:03 pm
Vader solidly, he is pretty much better than Malgus in every category
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

November 5th 2019, 8:42 pm
yeah. he might semi ragdoll malgus tbh
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

November 5th 2019, 9:14 pm
Vader in a good to great fight.
avatar
Quorian Debatist
Level One
Level One

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

November 10th 2019, 3:28 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Sponsored content

Malgus vs Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: Malgus vs Vader

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum