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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Tue 23 Jul 2019 - 17:45
Come on guys. Think about this from the Characters perspective.


Anakin is tired, enraged, and fueled by the Darkside, he isn't thinking clearly and turned on his best friend, Dooku took his hand, taunts him about his mother, and even helped put Padme in jeopardy several times.


Anakin will be so pissed at Dooku all his fatigue will wash away and he will literally atomize him with one blast.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Tue 23 Jul 2019 - 19:04
Vader in a good fight
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 1:47
@LOTL wrote:Yeah because if anyone is going to exploit a familiarity advantage easily and instinctively it is going to be the 17 year old kid that has been trained as a formal apprentice for 4 years only, seen limited experience and has sparred much less number of Jedi much less number of times than the 53 year old Jedi Master that is not only incredibly intuitive on dueling by having much more experience but is also more self aware, more graceful, more technically skilled etc. than the kid. Yeah, that is very believable. In any case this is a matter to be elaborated in our debate and not of import in this discussion.

Jinn had only been apprenticed to Dooku for roughly the same period of time, and he was talking about how Qui-Gon's bladework was "perfect", and how he was the "perfect padawan". Let's not let bias sink in too much. Also, Kenobi has a noted lack of focus, or rather inconsistency of it in combat situations. Anyway, you brought this up for literally no reason lol.

@LOTL wrote:Furthermore nowhere has the dynamic between Jinn and Kenobi been stated to be like the one between him and Skywalker and not all masters and apprentices have such an intimate dynamic going both their bases

The Complete Visual Dictionary writes: "Obi-Wan and Anakin have been partnered for so long that they can all but read each other's minds and predict what each other can do." This sort of prediction intimacy is reflected elsewhere; for example in the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan spar, where Obi-Wan is predicting Jinn's moves simply because he knows his master will make that move, and he's only been a Padawan for four years - remembering that in TPM, years down the track, he's still explicitly not Qui-Gon's equal as a swordsman. Furthermore:

@LOTL wrote:nowhere has the dynamic between Jinn and Kenobi been stated to be like the one between him and Skywalker

So it has to be explicitly stated to be true? Yeah no.

@LOTL wrote:not all masters and apprentices have such an intimate dynamic going both their bases

That's true, but we'd definitely expect such intimacy to happen between a duo that have a heavy tradition/skill in lightsaber dueling - like Qui-Gon and Kenobi. Again, we have them knowing each other's moves, and that would have only increased further up to TPM, which is what, 6 or more years further? (Don't quote me, idk the exact number)

---

Kilius wrote:Both Jinn and Kenobi were noted to have a mutual advantage, what's your point? It wasn't one-sided in the spar anymore than on Mustafar. It's only one-sided if only one guy knows the style of the other, like Venamis vs Plagueis or in a hypothetical match-up between Jinn or Post-TPM Kenobi.

Sure, but the advantage of being able to predict someone's moves via intuition/knowledge of their style on top of augmentation prolongs the fight. If Qui-Gon hadn't been as experienced in predicting Maul's Juyo sequences, he would have died a hell of a lot quicker. The same rings true for Obi-Wan; he's still explicitly an 8 during the fight, and Gillard says he still has to deal with a tier 9 fighter, and their duel goes for a pretty long time. So, knowing each other's moves intimately prolongs a fight. If that Padawan Kenobi of four years training went up against a Master of Qui-Gon's exact combative ability, but who had a completely different style and tactics, in a real life combative situation, he'd lose pretty handily. And this is why LOTL's point in our debate about the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan spar is basically irrelevant.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 12:08
@Meatpants wrote:Who’s to say Dooku isn’t as defensively viable as Kenobi?

Going back to your original claim, Kenobi defensive accomplishments are more proven. Defense is one aspect of Makashi but not nearly to the same extent as Soresu. And Kenobi is the greatest living master of Soresu, including Yoda who was capable of stonewalling AotC Dooku's "finest assault" with minimal effort. That and my other point being Kenobi has superior stamina to carry out a marathon battle. And no Kenobi getting tired along with Dooku isn't proof they're comparable in endurance. Dooku uses an energy-efficient style, while Kenobi was using Ataru for the first portion of the IH duel the most energy-consuming of the seven forms. Age is the main factor attributed to Dooku's tiring "after all he wasn't a young man" It doesn't apply when Kenobi relies on the similarly energy-efficient Soresu, designed to prolong combat.

Sure, but the advantage of being able to predict someone's moves via intuition/knowledge of their style on top of augmentation prolongs the fight. If Qui-Gon hadn't been as experienced in predicting Maul's Juyo sequences, he would have died a hell of a lot quicker.

You're using intuition and knowledge synonymously when in reality they are separate. Jinn's anticipating Maul's moves despite not having fought him before can be attributed to "his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him." as well as his talent in reading footwork
Spoiler:

Jedi Apprentice: Captive Temple wrote:""Your footwork betrays you," Qui-Gon answered, pressing his advantage with a slashing blow. "You don't realize how you let me know your next move. Notice how your body is leaning just slightly. You're placing more weight on the ball of your left foot. You're going to move left." Xanatos shifted his balance, and Qui-Gon, already anticipating his reaction, drove forward. Xanatos nearly dropped his lightsaber as he slammed against the wall."
The same rings true for Obi-Wan; he's still explicitly an 8 during the fight, and Gillard says he still has to deal with a tier 9 fighter, and their duel goes for a pretty long time.

Because he stuck to defense and gave ground the entire time letting the Force dictate the location, rather than make stand. If Kenobi had been trapped in an area with nowhere to go he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did, even the script supports this:
Spoiler:

The balcony ends, and OBI-WAN is trapped.He looks over the balcony and into a river of lava.
ANAKIN cuts apiece of the balcony railing off, along with a control panel.
ALARMS SOUND, and a protective ray shield around the superstructure disappears. It tumbles into the molten abyss, disappearing in a puff of smoke. A small pipe connects the Control Center to the Main Collection Plant. OBI-WAN has no choice but to tightrope-walk out across the lava river while fighting ANAKIN." - RotS Script
Just to be clear Anakin was winning that fight. It wasn't a stalemate. Kenobi did get some pretty good hits in but then again so did ESB Luke against Vader, an inferior can pressure their betters if they do enough right. The script makes it clear Kenobi was forced to give ground and that he couldn't stonewall him as he could with Dooku or Grievous(yeah Grievous overloaded his defense but in doing so he left himself vulnerable, so it still counts).
If that Padawan Kenobi of four years training went up against a Master of Qui-Gon's exact combative ability, but who had a completely different style and tactics, in a real life combative situation, he'd lose pretty handily.
Or Kenobi could just be that good. Obviously, he isn't Jinn's equal at that point; Watson even has Kenobi depicted as decidedly inferior in her later works, if we go by intent. But the point of the novel was to show Kenobi was almost ready to move out on his own. Kenobi only doing as well as he did because of a two-sided knowledge advantage kind of runs contrary to the duel's thematic purpose. It's possible honestly that Kenobi was already close to his TPM level and just plateaued for a few years. It happens enough in real life.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:26
Kilius wrote:Going back to your original claim, Kenobi defensive accomplishments are more proven.

Except the example of his "defensive accomplishments" was against someone who he knew inside and out in terms of moves and style. Again, Gillard makes it clear that Kenobi, an 8, was dealing with a tier 9 fighter.

Kilius wrote:Defense is one aspect of Makashi but not nearly to the same extent as Soresu.

True, but we're not talking about the theoretical applications of lightsaber forms.

Kilius wrote:And Kenobi is the greatest living master of Soresu,

To my knowledge, this is from Windu's viewpoint. I don't take as much stock in viewpoints.

Kilius wrote:including Yoda who was capable of stonewalling AotC Dooku's "finest assault" with minimal effort.

Yeah no, it wasn't minimal effort. Yoda was still fighting at full conventional combative ability, and it still took half a minute or so for Dooku to start tiring significantly. Yoda is even sincere when he says Dooku fought well, and acknowledges the fight was sufficient practice for him.

Kilius wrote:That and my other point being Kenobi has superior stamina to carry out a marathon battle.

Based on what?

Kilius wrote:Age is the main factor attributed to Dooku's tiring "after all he wasn't a young man" It doesn't apply when Kenobi relies on the similarly energy-efficient Soresu, designed to prolong combat.

Dooku expends a lot of energy in the IH fight, and is capable of drawing on the DS to fully rejuvenate himself. The only reason why he became utterly helpless is because he was trying to fend off a Yoda+++ tier combatant in clarity!Anakin. That's not to say Kenobi isn't younger and could last longer endurance wise, but that's only beneficial if Dooku can't penetrate Kenobi's defence, which is an assumption on your part.

Kilius wrote:You're using intuition and knowledge synonymously when in reality they are separate. Jinn's anticipating Maul's moves despite not having fought him before can be attributed to "his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him." as well as his talent in reading footwork.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If a Jedi Knight masters Ataru, then goes up against Qui-Gon, he's not going to be able to predict Qui-Gon's moves. The force allows one to augment their speed, and it tells them what the opponent is going to do beforehand. This is different from actually predicting someone's moves. Qui-Gon was weaker in the Force, but he knew Maul's moves before Maul even decided what they were going to be. That's a level of prediction built on experience. Similarly, Obi-Wan can predict Anakin's movements because he knows them by heart, and he knows how Anakin fights.

And you haven't addressed how being able to predict someone via experience of intimate knowledge of another person prolongs a fight - which it does. For example, let's assume that AotC Kenobi and Qui-Gon are roughly combative equals. Put both against Jedi Dooku - Qui-Gon is going to last longer in a duel, because they know each other's moves.

Kilius wrote:Because he stuck to defense and gave ground the entire time letting the Force dictate the location, rather than make stand. If Kenobi had been trapped in an area with nowhere to go he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did, even the script supports this:

Considering that in other instances of 9's going up against 8's, the duel is over in less than a minute if the tier 9 goes full throttle, sure. But again, the novel wouldn't specifically emphasise their intimate knowledge of each other's moves if that hadn't helped Kenobi - which it did. That's my point.

Kilius wrote:Just to be clear Anakin was winning that fight. It wasn't a stalemate

Never said it was a stalemate.

Kilius wrote:Or Kenobi could just be that good.

Based on what evidence? It's very clear even in the spar itself that Kenobi and Qui-Gon know each other's moves. You've offered no other explanation as to why the fight was so prolonged, apart from suggesting that "Kenobi could just be that good". You've offered no evidence.

But the point of the novel was to show Kenobi was almost ready to move out on his own. Kenobi only doing as well as he did because of a two-sided knowledge advantage kind of runs contrary to the duel's thematic purpose. It's possible honestly that Kenobi was already close to his TPM level and just plateaued for a few years. It happens enough in real life.

Pure speculation.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:32
"Yoda was still fighting at full conventional combative ability"

No, IIRC ILS has a source that says that Yoda only goes all out against Sidious
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:33
Have you been reading this discussion or nah? I already addressed that in my response to you.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:35
This one?
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:37
Oops I meant the other one.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:46
"It's very clear even in the spar itself that Kenobi and Qui-Gon know each other's moves. You've offered no other explanation as to why the fight was so prolonged, apart from suggesting that "Kenobi could just be that good". You've offered no evidence."

You mean other than Qui Gon harping on about how really "good" Obi Wan had become repeatedly? It is almost as if that being the main reason for Obi Wan's performance is so ridiculous that you dismiss the very thought as mere speculation.

Meanwhile a throwaway line that very clearly gives the same advantage to Qui Gon both technically and by intent becomes the main reason for Obi Wan contending with him becomes your argument. Moreover you, literally without any evidence state that Obi Wan wouldn't be able to contend with him if it had been any other Master. You accuse others of speculation but you literally haven't done anything else so far. I am really itching to give a 10000 character response to these misconceptions but of course, the debate
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:50
@Meatpants wrote:Oops I meant the other one.

The only source that says anything like that is a retconned script that has Yoda trying to kill him. The final version doesn't have that sequence so no. In fact the junior novel clearly has him holding back

Your entire rant about that quote, if it exists is also speculation so, let's not be too hasty to dismiss it
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Wed 24 Jul 2019 - 23:58
"So it has to be explicitly stated to be true? Yeah no."

Obviously
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Thu 25 Jul 2019 - 13:40
@Meatpants wrote:Except the example of his "defensive accomplishments" was against someone who he knew inside and out in terms of moves and style. Again, Gillard makes it clear that Kenobi, an 8, was dealing with a tier 9 fighter.

Kenobi's defensive achievements outside the duel with Anakin are more proven is what I was getting at.

To my knowledge, this is from Windu's viewpoint. I don't take as much stock in viewpoints.

It's supported by OOU narration as well.

RotS Senior Novel wrote:"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is."

In-universe statements shouldn't be dismissed so willy nilly when there is clear authorial intent behind the statement.

Yeah no, it wasn't minimal effort.

Yes, it was. The Junior Novel makes it clear Yoda was stonewalling Dooku effortlessly.

Spoiler:

AotC Junior Novel wrote:Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.
The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer. The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one.

Yoda doesn't budge as per the Script:

Spoiler:

AotC Script wrote:COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.
Same as the Senior Novel the most favorable depiction of Dooku's showing against Yoda, he doesn't step back or move to the side agaisnt Dooku's "wild flurry the likes of which he hadn't shown against Anakin and Obi Wan".
Spoiler:

AotC Senior Novel wrote:
Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust.
But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside.
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.
I'd also reference the comic, but I'm not good at transmitting images on this site and I assume everyone's seen it. Yoda did the same against Dooku's "finest assult yet".

And Kenobi scales above Yoda in defense. He could replicate this and then some.

Based on what?

Based on being half his age for one. And the fact that he lasted much longer against Anakin than Dooku. Even if I for the sake of the argument went along with your "intimate lovers" theory, Kenobi still isn't excused from not having the sufficient stamina to deal with Anakin's onslaught for over 10 minutes. That's far longer than Dooku lasted strickly speaking of endurance.


and is capable of drawing on the DS to fully rejuvenate himself.

Only when there's a break in the action. He used it right before the duel stated. He used it again when Anakin was temporarily out of the picture and Kenobi was busy maintaining his defensive wall; the unspoken but all too glaring weakness of Soresu in its lack of initiative. And finally when they paused to glower at each other when Anakin kicked him off the balcony.

He can't rejuvenate himself at will when Anakin is hammering him with his power blows.


The only reason why he became utterly helpless is because he was trying to fend off a Yoda+++ tier combatant in clarity!Anakin.

An overstatement. It's debatable if "zonakin" is even equal to Yoda as a combatant, but regardless he certainly isn't superior by a magnitude of 4. At the very very least they're in the same playing field.


That's not to say Kenobi isn't younger and could last longer endurance wise, but that's only beneficial if Dooku can't penetrate Kenobi's defense, which is an assumption on your part.
I'm talking Dooku vs Vader not Dooku vs Kenobi. You completely missed the point.

If a Jedi Knight masters Ataru, then goes up against Qui-Gon, he's not going to be able to predict Qui-Gon's moves.

Completely speculative and untested scenario. It would be helpful if there was an in-universe example to draw upon.

The force allows one to augment their speed, and it tells them what the opponent is going to do beforehand. This is different from actually predicting someone's moves. Qui-Gon was weaker in the Force, but he knew Maul's moves before Maul even decided what they were going to be


Because of his long experience and intuitive grasp on how an adversary may employ a lightsaber against him as well as his ability to anticipate an opponent by way of reading their footwork. This doesn't apply with Mustafar or the sparing match. It's just Jinn's general experience and knowledge of footwork being an effective tool against any opponent. Maul has is more skilled, better trained, and more powerful in the Force but still lacks Jinn's experience which is a kind of disadvantage. Not a huge disadvantage his other more obvious advantages over Jinn can't overcome of course, but one that Jinn can exploit nonetheless.

Having experience is a general advantage that can be applied to any situation. I for example with my many years of experience can anticipate what someone might do when faced with a particular situation on Pokemon Showdown and use it to my advantage(unless of course the player is more experienced than me and can think further ahead).

My point is that having greater experience isn't a circumstantial advantage, it's part of what make's up the individual's overall ability. If Jinn didn't have his long experience or his mastery of footwork he wouldn't be Jinn.

But it's kind of beside the point, isn't it? This isn't the same thing as the sparing and Mustafar examples.

That's a level of prediction built on experience.

Good for Jinn.

Similarly, Obi-Wan can predict Anakin's movements because he knows them by heart, and he knows how Anakin fights.

And Anakin has the exact same advantage. One he didn't have against Dooku. See it goes both ways. He can use his intimate knowledge of Kenobi's style to predict Kenobi's defensive sequences, as well as Kenobi, can to anticipate Anakin. No one who uses this argument has ever come up with a realistic reason as to why this is beneficial to only the inferior combatant.

And you haven't addressed how being able to predict someone via experience of intimate knowledge of another person prolongs a fight - which it does.

And you haven't proven this is actually a thing. Only assertions of incredulity at the notion Kenobi could actually be good enough to challenge Jinn or hold his own defensively against Vader. I don't need to prove a negative when no one has ever proven this a one-sided advantage to the inferior combatant.

For example, let's assume that AotC Kenobi and Qui-Gon are roughly combative equals. Put both against Jedi Dooku - Qui-Gon is going to last longer in a duel, because they know each other's moves.

Jinn likely has experienced in dealing with Makashi from his sparing with Dooku. While Kenobi was stated not to have any knowledge of Makashi in the AotC Novel and Junior Novel, while Dooku as per the RotS Senior Novel had an encyclopedic knowledge of Kenobi's style. This is an example of one opponent having a one-sided knowledge advantage, much like Plagueis vs Venamis.

So yes Jinn probably would last longer against Dooku but not because he knows Dooku's moves, as well as Dooku, knows his moves, but because Kenobi has no experience in dealing with Makashi in general, unlike Dooku who knows the ins and outs of Ataru like the back of his hand.
Considering that in other instances of 9's going up against 8's, the duel is over in less than a minute if the tier 9 goes full throttle, sure.

And Kenobi wouldn't have lasted as long if he was battling in a confined space with nowhere to go like the script implies, much like how Kas'im would have been slaughtered and Bane likewise when the former switched to Jar Kai if they didn't give ground in desperate flight. Giving ground and playing defensive is key to prolonging combat even when you are against a vastly superior opponent as well as having the sufficient stamina. None of these factors were in Dooku's favor on the Invisible Hand. He can give ground to an extent but in an enclosed space it only works for so long, he actually went on the attack in the last sequence if you go by the film, presumably because there wasn't much option; he can't stand his ground and hope to outlast him in defense, so he made a desperate counterattack that failed utterly.

Based on what evidence? It's very clear even in the spar itself that Kenobi and Qui-Gon know each other's moves. You've offered no other explanation as to why the fight was so prolonged, apart from suggesting that "Kenobi could just be that good". You've offered no evidence.

And your only argument against Kenobi is incredulity. As LOTL pointed out the fact that both were noted to have the same knowledge  advantage, doesn't negate Jinn's observations of Kenobi's obvious improvement and the striking realization the padawan might one day beat him someday.


Last edited by Kilius on Thu 25 Jul 2019 - 15:37; edited 1 time in total
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Thu 25 Jul 2019 - 14:02
Even kfv is not Yoda+++ lmfao. At best he is slightly superior to Yoda

All tier 9's are nearly equal. There is no way that any of them are considerably superior to other tier 9 force users
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Thu 25 Jul 2019 - 14:37
Dooku dun mochs Vader into oblivion





Jk. The fact that Vader managed to maintain an edge in sabers despite Obi wan knowing his form perfectly is more impressive than Dooku's performance against obi wan via sabers. Though one could argue Obi wan had a knowledge advantage as he already knew about Dooku's form 2 while Dooku only found about about Kenobi's mastery of Soresu mid fight. So overall sabers is a bit unclear but I'd still back Anakin with confidence, if only for the major fatigue issues Dooku would experience. The force I think is the crux of the issue. Is Dooku able to abuse Obi Wan(and by proxy MF Vader) legitimately or was the situation on the IH a case of getting surprised? If the former is true then an argument can be made for Dooku, if the latter is true then Vader winning is certain.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Sat 27 Jul 2019 - 16:53
Dooku.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Sun 28 Jul 2019 - 6:03
Barring psychological tactics The Count doesn't have a win condition. He's an 8 to Vader's 9. Good fight though.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Mon 29 Jul 2019 - 2:21
@LOTL wrote:You mean other than Qui Gon harping on about how really "good" Obi Wan had become repeatedly? It is almost as if that being the main reason for Obi Wan's performance is so ridiculous that you dismiss the very thought as mere speculation.

I'm basing my analysis off what we know. Qui-Gon's opinion of Kenobi's skills are as useless as Dooku's praise of Qui-Gon as the perfect padawan, or Windu believing Depa was better than him with a lightsaber. Even Yoda wanks Dooku's Jedi career ridiculously. We don't know how good Kenobi is at this point, that's speculation; I'll explain why. We have quotes and information about the relationship between master and apprentice and how this directly affects sparring/fighting each other. Even the spar in question specifically states that they know each other's moves. Knowing someone's moves intimately, and the other knowing yours, prolongs a fight. That's just common sense. Hence why Qui-Gon is gonna have a better chance against Jedi Dooku than AotC Kenobi does, time-wise. The only thing you can take from this spar is that Kenobi can keep up with Qui-Gon in augmentation, that's it. But even then, again, it's a sparring match, not an all-out duel to the death. Considering also that Qui-Gon developed his powers to the tier of the "great masters" approaching TPM, we can't gauge anything off this spar apart from Kenobi being a talented prodigy.

@LOTL wrote:The only source that says anything like that is a retconned script that has Yoda trying to kill him. The final version doesn't have that sequence so no. In fact the junior novel clearly has him holding back

Provide the quote please.

@LOTL wrote:Your entire rant about that quote, if it exists is also speculation so, let's not be too hasty to dismiss it

Yeah, I'm not going to address this further until the quote is actually presented.

---

Kilius wrote:Kenobi's defensive achievements outside the duel with Anakin are more proven is what I was getting at.

Yeah no, they aren't. And unless you wanna actually give some examples, concede the point.

Kilius wrote:It's supported by OOU narration as well.

In-universe statements shouldn't be dismissed so willy nilly when there is clear authorial intent behind the statement.

Haha, no. Prove that's the narrator, and secondly GG was disadvantaged.

Kilius wrote:Yes, it was. The Junior Novel makes it clear Yoda was stonewalling Dooku effortlessly.

In the second part of the fight where Yoda attacks, Dooku revitalises himself and holds his own against the assault. There's no indication that Yoda's attack was minimal, which is the actual important part of the fight that Dooku scales off.

Kilius wrote:And Kenobi scales above Yoda in defense. He could replicate this and then some.

Uh... how? You're seriously arguing that Kenobi can effortlessly stonewall Dooku?

Kilius wrote:Based on being half his age for one. And the fact that he lasted much longer against Anakin than Dooku. Even if I for the sake of the argument went along with your "intimate lovers" theory, Kenobi still isn't excused from not having the sufficient stamina to deal with Anakin's onslaught for over 10 minutes. That's far longer than Dooku lasted strickly speaking of endurance.

Age is irrelevant at the moment.

Zonakin is >>> MFV, so that's not a fair comparison.

and is capable of drawing on the DS to fully rejuvenate himself.

Kilius wrote:Only when there's a break in the action. He used it right before the duel stated. He used it again when Anakin was temporarily out of the picture and Kenobi was busy maintaining his defensive wall; the unspoken but all too glaring weakness of Soresu in its lack of initiative. And finally when they paused to glower at each other when Anakin kicked him off the balcony.

He can't rejuvenate himself at will when Anakin is hammering him with his power blows.

And Kenobi's hammering blows would also prevent Dooku from doing it? Irrelevant.

Kilius wrote:An overstatement. It's debatable if "zonakin" is even equal to Yoda as a combatant, but regardless he certainly isn't superior by a magnitude of 4. At the very very least they're in the same playing field.

I fail to see how this has any relevance anyway, Kenobi is nowhere near Zonakin.

Kilius wrote:Because of his long experience and intuitive grasp on how an adversary may employ a lightsaber against him as well as his ability to anticipate an opponent by way of reading their footwork. This doesn't apply with Mustafar or the sparing match. It's just Jinn's general experience and knowledge of footwork being an effective tool against any opponent. Maul has is more skilled, better trained, and more powerful in the Force but still lacks Jinn's experience which is a kind of disadvantage. Not a huge disadvantage his other more obvious advantages over Jinn can't overcome of course, but one that Jinn can exploit nonetheless.

My point being that being able to predict someone prolongs a fight....

Kilius wrote:Having experience is a general advantage that can be applied to any situation. I for example with my many years of experience can anticipate what someone might do when faced with a particular situation on Pokemon Showdown and use it to my advantage(unless of course the player is more experienced than me and can think further ahead).

My point is that having greater experience isn't a circumstantial advantage, it's part of what make's up the individual's overall ability. If Jinn didn't have his long experience or his mastery of footwork he wouldn't be Jinn.

But it's kind of beside the point, isn't it? This isn't the same thing as the sparing and Mustafar examples.

I'm not talking necessarily about experience, it's just a similar example. It's about prediction. Jinn is predicting Maul based on general experience; master and apprentice predict each other based on experiences with each other. The point again being that it stretches out a fight for both parties.

Kilius wrote:And Anakin has the exact same advantage. One he didn't have against Dooku. See it goes both ways.  He can use his intimate knowledge of Kenobi's style to predict Kenobi's defensive sequences, as well as Kenobi, can to anticipate Anakin. No one who uses this argument has ever come up with a realistic reason as to why this is beneficial to only the inferior combatant.

Because you've missed the point: of course it benefits both parties, but it also prolongs a fight, draws it out.

Kilius wrote:And you haven't proven this is actually a thing. Only assertions of incredulity at the notion Kenobi could actually be good enough to challenge Jinn or hold his own defensively against Vader. I don't need to prove a negative when no one has ever proven this a one-sided advantage to the inferior combatant.

Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Image-1

Straw-man. When did I say the advantage held ony for one of two combatants?

Kilius wrote:Jinn likely has experienced in dealing with Makashi from his sparing with Dooku.

It's quite certain, actually. And he's explicitly stated as mastering at least Makashi, if not the lightsaber forms in their entirety.

Kilius wrote:While Kenobi was stated not to have any knowledge of Makashi in the AotC Novel and Junior Novel, while Dooku as per the RotS Senior Novel had an encyclopedic knowledge of Kenobi's style. This is an example of one opponent having a one-sided knowledge advantage, much like Plagueis vs Venamis.

So yes Jinn probably would last longer against Dooku but not because he knows Dooku's moves, as well as Dooku, knows his moves, but because Kenobi has no experience in dealing with Makashi in general, unlike Dooku who knows the ins and outs of Ataru like the back of his hand.

The stuff about Kenobi not knowing anything about Makashi is essentially retconned. All Jedi learn about the seven forms, and they practice the basic sequeneces of each form early in their training. Dooku was exponentionally above Kenobi regardless of Kenobi's lack of technical knowledge anyway.

Kilius wrote:And Kenobi wouldn't have lasted as long if he was battling in a confined space with nowhere to go like the script implies, much like how Kas'im would have been slaughtered and Bane likewise when the former switched to Jar Kai if they didn't give ground in desperate flight. Giving ground and playing defensive is key to prolonging combat even when you are against a vastly superior opponent as well as having the sufficient stamina. None of these factors were in Dooku's favor on the Invisible Hand. He can give ground to an extent but in an enclosed space it only works for so long, he actually went on the attack in the last sequence if you go by the film, presumably because there wasn't much option; he can't stand his ground and hope to outlast him in defense, so he made a desperate counterattack that failed utterly.

Are you arguing for Dooku or Kenobi here? Lol.

Based on what evidence? It's very clear even in the spar itself that Kenobi and Qui-Gon know each other's moves. You've offered no other explanation as to why the fight was so prolonged, apart from suggesting that "Kenobi could just be that good". You've offered no evidence.

Kilius wrote:And your only argument against Kenobi is incredulity.

No.... I've asked you to substantiate your claim and your rebuttals are always deflections, or "Well Kenobi could have gotten better?" No shit, of course he improves over time.

Kilius wrote:As LOTL pointed out the fact that both were noted to have the same knowledge  advantage, doesn't negate Jinn's observations of Kenobi's obvious improvement and the striking realization the padawan might one day beat him someday.

Again, as if this proves anything other than Kenobi's potential.
SithSauce
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Mon 29 Jul 2019 - 2:59
The old man gets battered, again.
Set, The God of Chaos
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Mon 29 Jul 2019 - 6:14
@Meatpants The quote in the JN for AOTC has Yoda not attacking Dooku for the whole fight and aiming simply to stop Dooku from getting to his ship (which @LOTL is referencing). However, it's contradicted by every other account of the fight where Yoda goes on the offensive after stonewalling Dooku including those of a higher canon status. In fact we have multiple quotes from secondary sources saying Yoda went all out which I can dig up for you if necessary.
O-Siri
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Mon 29 Jul 2019 - 14:32
@Meatpants
1. Dooku has no defensive feats that compare to Kenobi's stonewalling of RotS Dooku with minimal effort and Grievous's four lightsabers striking at 12-18 strikes per second without giving any ground and swiftly destroying all of his lightsabers after his defense was overloaded. Dooku is only seen sparing with Grievous using two lightsabers and Dooku knows Grieovus's style inside out and how best to exploit his shortcomings and weaknesses. Grievous of course knows Dooku's style but not the same extent Dooku knows his as he explicitly kept secrets from Grievous to maintain his edge "just in case".

2. The first line is Mace firmly stating Kenobi's supremacy in Soresu in flashback, the second line brings us back to the present and reiterates Mace's point only this time through a narrator. It is both in-universe acknowledged and corroborated by out-of-universe narration.

And how was Grievous disadvantage? The SN follows the continuity of LoE where Mace doesn't crush his chest; he isn't even coughing in the SN. The OCW account of the Coruscant invasion (which is completely irreconcilable with the equally canon LoE account despite wookiepedia's valiant efforts) meshes with the movie but not the novel portrayal which is closest to classic EU Grievous.

3. Dooku holding his own against Yoda's attack is irrelevant to the point I was making. I only brought up Yoda stonewalling Dooku's assault to demonstrate what Kenobi scales from. Kenobi is factually superior to Yoda in Soresu and can replicate his defensive showings. And this is even corroborated with feats, via his own stonewalling of a more powerful Dooku with the exact same efficiency as Yoda did on Geonosis.

4. How is age irrelevant in comparison to how well Dooku would last against Skywalker compared to Kenobi? Dooku can't revitalize himself unless he gets a brief respite. He can accomplish this against Kenobi because Soresu is overly passive and lacks initiative, but not against the far more aggressive Skywalker who would never give Dooku a chance to effectively gather himself.

5. Zonakin and Mustafar Vader are in the same tier. The dragons venom made him more uncertain about Padme's fate and more dependent on Sidious for reassurance but he's just as powerful and more experienced in channeling his rage. The anguish he felt from having to kill Obi-Wan only strengthened him.

6. Again I'm not talking about Kenobi vs Dooku just how much better suited Kenobi is for outlasting Dooku defensively against Anakin. If you followed my recent comments on the Kenobi vs Dooku thread you would know I think a fight between them is an impasse if they both play to their strengths or Dooku's victory if Kenobi commits to offense.

7. That's the big issue here. You haven't proven both combatants knowing each other's moves prolongs things. Nothing in JA spar or the RotS SN implies it prolongs fights past their natural expiration dates. Only that both sides could predict the other and use it to their advantage.

Your main point in bringing up the JA spar was to establish precedence for this phenomenon occurring but JA doesn't state or imply any such thing. It's only your conjecture mutual knowledge prolongs things. It's just as probable Kenobi is simply fast catching up to Jinn as the novel clearly insinuates.

You keep asking me to prove this is the case, but that's the thing I don't have to. You made the claim you have to prove mutual knowledge was the reason the spar was prolonged not me to prove Kenobi was simply that good. Both interpretations are valid since neither is explicit, though the novel does very much imply much of Kenobi's performance is his own ability.

8. Whatever. The point remains that you haven't proven mutual knowledge prolongs things.

9. Source for Jedi learning the basics of each form? Not arguing just curious. Anyways all the forms share the same basic techniques I agree, there's precedent for this in the Bane Trilogy:

Spoiler:

Path of Destruction wrote:Bane had begun by learning the basic techniques common to all seven traditional lightsaber forms. His first weeks had been spent in endless repetitions of defensive postures, overhand strikes, parries, and counter-strikes. By observing the natural tendencies of his students as they learned the basics, Lord Kas'im determined which form would best match their style. For Bane he chose Djem So, Form V.

so I can take your word for it, but knowing the basics as a kid and forgetting most of it when you specialize in a particular form isn't comparable to mastery or complete technical knowledge. It's not really a contradiction to the notion most Jedi don't practice the impractical "old dueling style" less suited for blasters. And Dooku's mastery is unlike anything Kenobi has ever experienced before with rudimentary knowledge he most likely lost after devoting most of his life to Ataru and Soresu. And yes Dooku far more skilled than AotC Kenobi anyways. I'm not even arguing his knowledge advantage is circumstantial; technical knowledge of the other forms is part of what makes Dooku so formidable and lack of knowledge of the others is a legitimate shortcoming of Kenobi. It does, however, render your point regarding how long Jinn would last against Dooku relative to AotC Kenobi moot though.
HellfireUnit
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Tue 30 Jul 2019 - 15:32
I'd side with Dooku if he is rested and not holding back. Dooku's superior mastery of Force should carry him to the victory.
Syndiciate
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Tue 30 Jul 2019 - 16:16
@Meatpants wrote:Not a troll reply. MFV Vader is explicitly a 9.

Not that I doubt what you're saying, but would you mind posting or PM'ing me the quote for this? I'm unfamiliar with a quote specifying that Vader as he was on Mustafar in particular was a 9 in Gillard's tier system.
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EmperorCaedus
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Sat 7 Dec 2019 - 1:52
Vader, just like on the Invisible Hand.
Shioz
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

on Sat 7 Dec 2019 - 4:42
Dooku dies worse than on the IH.
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Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku - Page 2 Empty Re: Mustafar Vader vs Count Dooku

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