Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis

DC77 wrote:Nearly every word written in that sentence was wrong. I'll articulate why after I finish my post to you (Which might be done sooner than expected, I'm nearly done mulling over my personal crisis and finishing my school essay).

DC77 wrote:Screw it, I'll respond now.

Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

Dark Transfer should be a greater factor than MCM.

Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

CuckedCurry wrote:Krayt is closer to Whie Malreux than he is to Plagueis

PeraltaEagle45 wrote:

DC77 wrote:@SithArchaeologist Would you mind articulating why you think the Abeloth fight demonstrates parity between Skywalker and Krayt?

It's very simple. Krayt and Luke performed similarly in the battle. They both did similar amounts of damage and ended the fight with similar levels of injury. One could even make the argument that Krayt had a larger overall impact on the fight through his drain, which affected all of the Abeloth avatars, allowing each to be defeated.

Abyss wrote:When he reached the basin, Luke could finally see through the curtain of steam to the font itself. It was a jet of water about as thick as his leg, so filled with sulfur and iron that it was as brown as a tree trunk—and so permeated with Force energy that it literally sent him stumbling back, his head spinning and his stomach churning. The fountain was not just tainted with dark side power, it was imbued with it—as if it were rising up from some deep-buried reservoir of dark side energy that had been building, preparing to blow for not just millennia, but since the beginning of time itself.```

Abyss wrote:```“There is no limit to the strength that can be drawn from the Font of Power,” Ryontarr replied. “You can drink as deeply as you wish.”
“Can I?”``

PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Unsubstantiated conjecture. Krayt is a prime Luke-tier combatant. He destroys Plagueis.

The Ellimist wrote:I frankly don't see the Apocalypse fight as implying any sort of parity between Luke and Krayt, and that's the only real case I can see for Krayt being above Plagueis.

I'm inclined to think that their Beyond Shadows selves are closer to their "true potential" - perhaps not literally, but in some sort of raw power sense - which would likely put the spirit Apoc Krayt on Krayt Reborn's level. While he is powerful enough to be relevant in the fight, if one looks at it carefully there isn't any indication that he's as powerful as Luke, or in the same tier as him. He's just able to help. I guess his Force drain affecting Abeloth is a pretty potent feat though.

I happen to think that Plagueis is around the threshold at where one would be relevant in that Beyond Shadows fight.

ILS wrote:Being in Beyond Shadows means there are no physical limitations. Its just pure spirit/essence vs essence (which also calls into question the relevance of a nexus which, as we know, bolsters living force energy in the physical world...)

With that being case, consider that Krayt's spirit/will would have been tested constantly over a period of over a century with him having to fight off natural death and vong coral seeds eating his guts/bones alive and trying to consume his mind, culminating with him having a rapture-esque experience after overcoming death with him claiming his power has multiplied, he see's the Force/world in a new way now, and the authors claiming he is now more powerful than ever and understands his power better than ever etc.. you can also make the claim that the spiritual wounds which are talked about in Legacy and which Luke and Krayt suffered from Abeloth/other experiences, which we know can be healed, would all have been healed by War. Krayt healed his spirit from ab tiny vestige that he tucked into his corpse back to its full potency and more.

Krayt obviously wins this. Beating Cade in the manner he did, considering Cade's feats before he underwent exponential power growth and became a "master of the Force", is more in line with PT Sheev than Plagueis.

In terms of combat, again, Krayt draining Abeloth with such potency that he probably would have killed most mortal Force users or at least severely crippled a high tier, based on how rapidly Abeloth deteriorated from this, is above Plagueis' applicable use of MM. I doubt either would use these powers in this fight either way but in terms of sheer potency its above anything Plagueis has.

How weak can you really make Krayt with a straight face while also looking at how he completely manhandled Cade, someone who is several orders of magnitude above throwing a large transport shuttle into the distant horizon (something everyone would drop their pants for if Dooku or Kyp Durron did if we're being honest).

And how meaningless exactly are both powerscaling and beyond shadows fights if we are simply going to say "well yano Aayla Secura is probably at the threshold where she could fill in for Krayt so lets lets handwave this feat". And how close exactly do people think Plagueis is to Luke?

• In his Beyond Shadows form, Abeloth cannot ragdoll or otherwise get rid of him with ease. I'm not sure what the ragdoll gaps are in that form; durability seems to be much higher given that the physical damage both suffered would've killed them in real life.
  
• Krayt can damage Abeloth with strikes and hold onto her as she rolls with them.
  
• Krayt's Force drain can noticeably harm Abeloth after an extended period of time.
  

So, certainly, I can see a very compelling argument for Plagueis winning if we avoid every important question about Krayt possible and ignore all of his best feats, and attempt to mitigate the most unavoidable of those as much as possible (while still maintaining ludicrous wanking power chains in other respects). But that kind of falls apart when a few simple facts are observed and their implications are drawn out.