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AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Empty Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix)

August 3rd 2022, 3:08 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Anato-10
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Swtor-11
Darth Vader as of Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Darth Malgus as of Star Wars the Old Republic: Legacy of the Sith

Rules:
- Two months between posts
- 15,000 character limit
- Three posts and one conclusion post each

Special Agreed Rules:
- No arguments over Darth Malgus's prime
- No arguments over Darth Malgus's inferiority to the Outlander
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Empty Re: Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix)

August 4th 2022, 9:53 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Darth-12

Darth Vader is born as and is the embodiment of the Force:


Anakin is the chosen one, and even when Anakin turns into Darth Vader, he's still the chosen one.
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_8610

Controlling Skywalker is equal to controlling the universe/everything, Palpatine's control of Darth Vader is what causes his dominion over the universe:

NOTE: This scene was only removed due to George Lucas's denial of the existence of Sith spirits:
https://www.starwars.com/video/ghosts-of-mortis-episode-featurette

Places of absolute darkness are outside of the power of the Force Priestesses:
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow43

The Force Priestesses embody the connection of the living Force to the cosmic Force:
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Scree174

The dark side of the Force has been growing every day during the Clone Wars and a portion of its power is so great that it stuns Master Yoda into near defeatism against the Sith:


As Darth Vader represents the balance of the Force, when he fell he 'destroyed' the balance, because of his becoming a Sith and thus cast the universe into darkness after becoming more machine than man:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow47
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow46
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow51

Darth Vader, already the center of the now destroyed balance of the Force, now also co-owns the supremacy of the dark side of the Force built for tens of thousands of years and its dominion:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow49
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_1110
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Image110
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow15
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow16

This is signified when the birth scream of Darth Vader is tantamount to all the dead of the Clone Wars dying a final time:

Last of the Jedi: Against the Empire wrote:"It happened about a year ago," he said, lowering his voice to a ragged whisper. "Near the very end of the Clone Wars. A scream was heard. A scream so terrible and so loud that it echoed throughout the building and made the sensors go crazy. It was said that one med worker lost his hearing. Permanently. The med workers searched and searched for the source of the sound, but there was... nothing. There was only a handful of patients at that time. It had seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere, but no patient had done it." Jako's voice had lowered to a whisper. "It was as though all the dead of the Clone Wars had screamed their death cries at the same time, then gone back to being dead."

Ferus knew that in his slightly incoherent way Jako was trying to spook him, and it had worked. Just not in the way he'd thought. Jako winked. "Enjoy the night shift." He closed his eyes again, and, smiling, was asleep in seconds. Ferus thought once more about Vader's prosthetics. They were extensive, from a breath-mask to vision enhancement to possible artificial limbs. He was fairly certain that Vader had at least one artificial hand. And he was regulated by what seemed to be a complex bio-system within that suit.

For the first time, Ferus wondered what awful injuries he must have sustained. What had happened to the guy? He had been chasing the wrong idea. Vader, whoever he was, must have been in terrible pain.

Darth Vader is now the most terrifying evil to face in the universe:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow45

Darth Vader's fall to the dark side is also far from over:

Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader wrote:More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.

--

Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals.

Despite the injuries on Mustafar, Darth Vader's Midichlorian count is still 'incredible' and he has gradually learned to sustain his body, further replenishing his lost bodily power:
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Scree173

Vader has freed himself from pain using the Force since the battle of Yavin IV, achieving greater mastery of himself, and has become a far better combatant because of it:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Image012

If he can kill Emperor Palpatine then his power would grow immensely, despite any possible bodily limitations:

Vader: The Ultimate Guide wrote:Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known… Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith rule of two that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, has his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.

This is the 'unstoppable' power Darth Vader was meant to achieve:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow42


Darth Vader after slaughtering the separatists had achieved the power necessary to be the 'all-powerful', 'super-Sith' as put by George Lucas:

George Lucas, The Force Interview 2010 wrote:he made a pact with the devil, to be able to become all powerful, but of course when he did that, she didn't want anything to do with him anymore, so he lost her, once you are powerful, being able to bring her back from the dead. Well if I can do that then I can be emperor of the universe.
Now, there’s a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it’s left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It’s left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force.
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Plag_110

But Darth Vader still sees the Emperor as being beyond even the power he held then:

Vader: The Ultimate Guide wrote:But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known… Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith rule of two that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, has his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.

George Lucas explains this further, they are partners now:
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_3110
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_3111

As of Return of the Jedi, the Emperor's power is nearing 'tier 10' which is beyond any power in the universe:
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow44

In the context of the timetable of the above quote, Luke Skywalker is or at the very least soon will be powerful enough to conquer Darth Vader and the Emperor if he defeats his father:






Luke Skywalker himself fully believes he can destroy the Emperor:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_6010
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_6011
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_6012

Whilst Luke is underestimating the Emperor here. It's important to note that, conversely, if Luke joins the dark side it's the end for the Force per Yoda:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow14

Darth Vader then realizes that the Emperor's omniscience and invincibility relative to himself and Luke is fraudulent when the Emperor fails to foresee Luke's defiance:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow48

Now whilst Darth Vader's love for his son is what allows him to actually kill the Emperor, it is telling that an Emperor who is about to achieve a power beyond any in the universe and is already far above an all-powerfulz 'super Sith' Mustafar Vader is still 'vulnerable' to the duo. Returning Vader to his Bespin mindset. It is also very telling that an end to the Force Luke is at this threshold where multiple roads lead him to either total dominion of the darkness and the death of the Emperor before he is the unstoppable strongest power in the entire universe.

  • As the Chosen One, Darth Vader is the embodiment of the Force.
  • As the Chosen One, Darth Vader's internal balance effects the Force and the universe.
  • Darth Vader destroys the balance of the Force that was already im-balanced.
  • Darth Vader alongside the Emperor is at the center of this total darkness and commands it in union.
  • Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor who is beyond the 'all-powerful' 'super-Sith' Darth Vader had been on Mustafar.
  • Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor who is approaching tier 10, which is beyond all the powers of the universe.
  • If this Luke Skywalker joins the dark side, it will be the end of the Force.
  • The Emperor's powers are in reality 'vulnerable' to Luke and his father.
  • Luke is close enough that per a great many characters, including the Emperor himself, he can destroy the Emperor before he reaches this tier.


Darth Vader's power in the Force is cosmically higher than ever, as is the power of the darkness, by Return of the Jedi and is just as capable of becoming the next Emperor figure as Luke is, if he can destroy Palpatine. Whilst the obvious limitations on his body and thus combat make it hard for him to perform against the fully-fledged Jedi and Sith he was once supreme over in a duel, it's his ability to wield his cosmic Force power with his mind that you truly have to overcome:

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Vader_10
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader’s legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn’t know the power of the dark side. Vader’s real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.

Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.

Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn’t made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need everything in his power to shake Vader out of that despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

Even at Sidious’s own peril…
Yoda Code, The Clone Wars UK Magazine 6.35 wrote:Fights are not won with the power of the body, but with the power of the mind. Such is the way of the Force.

Yoda and Ben can't do this, only Luke can:
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Img_4110
Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Unknow50

The likely retort here is that Yoda is infirm, so that doesn't matter. He isn't or he always has been, you pick:

Rob Coleman, Attack of the Clones Commentary wrote:”Important also to the moment is how Yoda comes out of that fight, in the last shot, when we come back to him, and we see the exhaustion on his face, and we see him, gather his energy up, much like he did after, after he uh, lifts the ship out of the swamp in Empire. You see this moment right here, he’s sort of resolved to what’s happened, and he transforms back into that ¬†800 year old character, and walks off towards his comrades.”
George Lucas, Attack of the Clones Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew wrote:”I very much like the idea, which is continuing from Empire Strikes Back, when you first see him is he’s a funny little green frog, living in the swamps, and then eventually you realize that this is a great Jedi Master, well in this sequence it’s the same idea, you have this funny little wizened old man who’s very old and who walks with a cane and hobbles around, and then he pulls out his laser sword and he jumps around like a kid and he’s really powerful, and then when he finishes he’s all tired and he goes back to using his cane again."

But that's not including the much later addition of The Clone Wars to Yoda's outright growth in 'enlightenment, spirit, balance' at the feet of the manifestation of Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn for decades:



This was previously going to be a scene in Revenge of the Sith and Yoda's training to achieve the power greater than any Sith is noted here:

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Script wrote:QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

What is new in the proper The Clone Wars version of the discovery is the initial purity achieved by Yoda passing the mere tests required to even begin the training for 'the gift'.

So Yoda as of Attack of the Clones is initially no less  infirm than he is in Empire Strikes Back as of 2002 standards. In 2005, he is apprenticing under Qui-Gon Jinn to learn the path to immortality. By 2014, he has numerous purifying tests before he embarks on the training to become more powerful than any Sith.

Simply put, Darth Vader's darkness is beyond the control of the Force Priestesses, Yoda and Ben. In terms of his stature in the cosmic Force, he is the darkness and the axis upon which the balance of the Force operates. Only Luke Skywalker is capable of conquering Vader and the Emperor, and restoring the Force before it is too late for anything in the Force and the universe to work.

These are the fundamental forces of the universe at work and Darth Malgus is absolutely out of his depth against such a colossus.

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) 134eeb10


Last edited by AncientPower on August 4th 2022, 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
ILS
ILS

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Empty Re: Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix)

August 4th 2022, 2:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Potent opener!
TheAce
TheAce

Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Empty Re: Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix)

August 5th 2022, 4:33 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Amazing opener, meta shift is on the horizon.
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Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix) Empty Re: Darth Vader (LadyKulvax) VS. Darth Malgus (Janix)

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