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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 14th 2020, 1:28 am
"Still" could, instead, be referring to him "still" being able to wield power and help Luke. :\  I'm also not seeing your point even if true? 

Tree Ood Bnar, as I said, repulsed Kun and formed an impenetrable barrier he couldn't get through. He's necessarily more powerful than any of the other TOTJ Jedi and arguably more powerful than Kun himself. That's no surprise as he's drawing on planetary energies in that state. This proposed scaling doesn't work.

Perhaps an interesting scaling comparison, instead, is how Sedriss could kill Bnar whereas Kun couldn't. Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 1289255181
KingofBlades
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Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 14th 2020, 1:38 am
Ok, let's examine these premises in baby steps.
1.Non Ossus amped TotJ Ood is below the TotJ masters.
2.Ossus amped TotJ Ood is above TotJ masters and subsequently non amped Ood, by an unknown margin
3.DE Ood is weaker than amped TotJ Ood, by an unknown margin

Your conclusion that DE Ood is below non amped TotJ Ood doesn't logically follow from the premises above. We would need to know that the gap between DE Ood and amped TotJ Ood is equal to or larger than the gap between non amped TotJ Ood and amped TotJ Ood in order for your proposed scaling to have a hope of holding. And as far as I am aware we simply don't have a way to quantify the gaps. So unless you have a way of doing so, your scaling doesn't hold


Last edited by KingofBlades on November 14th 2020, 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 14th 2020, 3:13 am
WTF is 'Ossus amped Kun'?
KingofBlades
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Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 14th 2020, 3:16 am
I miswrote, meant to put Ossus amped Ood
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 14th 2020, 3:20 am
Ah
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 14th 2020, 4:00 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Nowhere in that image does it confirm Bnar was weakened. The fact that "four thousand years later, [Bnar] was still able to assist Skywalker and Solustar" could be just as easily referring to how impressive it is that he was still around 4,000 years after the devastation of Ossus. Nothing about the line has to refer to his actual Force power. If anything, Ood Bnar in Dark Empire is even stronger, as in DE he refers to himself as "older and wiser" than he had been in Tales of the Jedi. We know wisdom and often age are directly linked to power in the Force. He then calls on "powers that have lain dormant in him for thousands of years" to kill Sedriss. Nothing states those powers are lessened with time, and the implication is that he's drawing on the same power in DE as he did in TotJ.

Besides which, is there any source that actually states DE Ood Bnar was superior to DE Luke? Sure, he had a more impressive-looking feat at the moment, but Luke was literally stopped from acting because Sedriss had taken a hostage. Sedriss called on power from the atmosphere to attack Ood Bnar, and Bnar's only answer was to blow himself up Vegeta-style. Meanwhile, we had just seen Luke hard-stomp Sedriss with a Force push moments earlier. So Luke>Sedriss by a landslide, while Bnar's only answer to Sedriss was to explode himself.

So no, Nomi does not scale above DE Luke. She doesn't even scale above Ossus-amped Bnar, who was well above Odan Urr. Do we even have evidence that Nomi was above Odan Urr? She had a faster learning curve, as someone pointed out before (Her learning Battle Meditation before even really becoming a Jedi, while Odan Urr didn't learn it until he was a Knight), but that doesn't prove she ever surpassed him. Odan Urr still had a thousand years of experience on Nomi. It's like comparing AotC Yoda to AotC Anakin. Anakin grows at a far faster rate than Yoda likely had, but Yoda is still definitively his superior despite Anakin's natural talent at that point in time.

What we do know is that Odan Urr was able to breach Exar Kun's defenses and nearly succeed in bringing a wall of light against Kun, until Kun blasted him with his amulet. At this point, both Exar Kun and Odan Urr attribute the Jedi Grand Master's death to his age and frailty, not Exar Kun's actual supremacy. Meanwhile, Nomi alone could not stop Kun. It took pretty much the entire Jedi Order to create the wall of light that stopped him on Yavin. Admittedly, Kun had grown considerably between his fight with Urr and his defeat on Yavin 4, but we have no other real point of comparison to draw from.

What we know so far is that Ossus-amped Ood Bnar>Exar Kun~Odan Urr>Nomi Sunrider. You might be able to argue Nomi is on the same level as Vodo Siosk Baas, maybe. But Baas was able to fight with Exar Kun for a time, while Nomi was only able to stop Ulic Qel-Droma, Kun's inferior, after Qel-Droma was an emotional wreck from killing his own brother and was no longer attempting to resist.

Now that I think about it, Nomi is really, really hyped up in TotJ, but she really doesn't do much to deserve that hype. It's literally just her Battle Meditation that makes her special, but any other comparison I can think of in TotJ has her decisively inferior to the Jedi and Sith around her. Sylvar's superiority is another example that comes to mind, when Sylvar dispatches a foe faster than Nomi can react.

What has Nomi actually done, outside of Battle Meditation, that makes her at all worthy outside of generic "one of the greatest" accolades we get with pretty much every other character? She doesn't even have a single example of engaging in a lightsaber duel against another Force user. The only time's she's been depicted in Force duels have been either large scale Battle Meditation, or her getting blasted by Ulic Qel-Droma's Force lightning. Outside of that, she's always had other powerful Jedi backing her uses of the Force.

With all of that said, I believe Revan is above Nomi. Nomi just doesn't have enough to her name for this to really even be a fight. Even Revan's "one of the greatest" accolades are better and more numerous than Nomi's.
LadyKulvax
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Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 15th 2020, 12:05 am
I want to preface this response by saying I don't hold Nomi ~ or > Revan at all. But there's things I want to respond to.

1.First of all, that makes no sense:

Master Bnar, however, survived the intense radiation rained on the world's surface and, nearly four thousand years later, was still able to assist Skywalker and Solusar in their struggle against Executor Sedriss.

The context is very clear. It's stating despite the fact he suffered the intense radiation he was still able to aid in combat against Luke and Kam. The 'nearly thousand years later' is nothing more than establishing the timeline this occurred in, it makes absolutely no sense for that to be the point.

2.Not only is it stated outright that Bnar's power destroyed them both in the most relevant OOU sources on the matter:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Several thousand years later on the planet Ossus, Bnar reawakened to help save Jem Ysanna, a young woman with powers in the Force. He ultimately sacrificed himself to destroy the evil Imperial Military Executor Sedriss.

****

The Executor was destroyed by the power of an ancient Jedi, Ood Bnar.

2.:Bnar himself says Sedriss is actively trying to kill him but he can't, because Bnar's outright greater than him:

Dark Empire II Audio Drama wrote:Ood Bnar: GET BACK SKYWALKER! THIS EVIL ONE IS TRYING TO KILL ME! BUT I AM A GREATER MASTER OF THE FORCE THAN HE!!!

3.The living Force power of Ossus was spent mitigating the total destruction of the planet from the ten supernova waves. So there's absolutely no way that Ossus in DE is operating at the same level of power as it was prior to the cataclysm:

The Unlikely Survival of Ossus Codex Entry wrote:Ossus still bears the scars of the Cron Supernova: its surface is a seared wasteland of rock and sand. But even this degree of desolation is shockingly mild; that the planet was not rendered into a charred ball of molten rock, or even obliterated completely, is nothing short of miraculous.

Little academic work has been put forward to explain this unlikely survival; only conjecture. The initial cause of the supernova was unnatural; perhaps this explains the unnatural results? Ossus was a stronghold of the Jedi; does the inherent life force of such a place make it more resistant to destruction?

4.Odan-Urr never breaches Kun's defenses, that is said nowhere. Odan unleashes a Sever Force attack on Kun which fails and is outright one-shotted when Kun immediately retaliates. Not to mention Kun overpowers Urr's telekinetic hold on the holocron at the start of the encounter, after suppressing his own Force presence to sneak all the way into the inner chambers of the Great Library of Ossus.

4.5. Odan-Urr is still the most powerful Jedi of the time and yet it's said outright that he's 'destroyed' by Kun. This despite being on a light-side nexus that as I've said above, had so much power it mitigated planet-destroying energies leaving Ossus to only suffer surface-rupturing damage.

Comparing Ossus-hindered Exar Kun to post-drain Yavin Kun is also massively egregious.

5.Yavin Kun is stated to be outright far more powerful than any Jedi of the time, which includes any version of Ood. So none of that works anyway:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.
DarthAnt66
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Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 15th 2020, 1:02 am
Ood resists Kun's attempt to steal the lightsabers by undergoing a final metamorphosis, plunging roots into the ground and driving Kun back with a blast of power drawn from the depths of Ossus. Unfortunately, Ood is now firmly planted and will not be able to escape the starfire due to strike in only a few hours. Leaving Ulic to take care of himself, Kun takes his booty and escapes to his secret base on Yavin Four. (Tales of the Jedi - The Sith War 6 Crawl)

Kun being far more powerful than Bnar strikes me as inconsistent with the crawl and what's shown on-screen. It's likely the quote isn't including him because "power drawn from the depths of Ossus" is not his inherent power. Also, feel free to take the Bnar radiation quote to a linguist, but the meaning is certainly not "very clear."
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Nomi Sunrider vs Revan  - Page 2 Empty Re: Nomi Sunrider vs Revan

on November 15th 2020, 2:13 am
Kun's grown massively in power between those events and isn't hindered by a massively powerful light side nexus, when the statement applies. Kun is knocked back by the same power he's using to throw up a shield and isn't even slightly injured. Ood has a chance to kill the biggest threat to all life in the galaxy and he couldn't. Keeping in mind Kun is stated to be completely caught off-guard by the metamorphosis and thinks he's got Bnar beaten. So, honestly, nothing is inconsistent here.

I don't see jow you could possibly read that text and think it's talking about his longevity. It's literally just framing the timeline for when it occurs. The context that matters is to surviving the power of the supernova waves, given he literally transforms on-panel in the comic because of said devastation, it's pretty obviously referring to him weakening because of this.
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