Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 4th 2020, 11:25 am
^
Vaelias
Vaelias

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 4th 2020, 1:41 pm
Given that Kas’im mastered all lightsaber forms I’m pretty sure he could find a way to break her, I think Shan May be a little stronger in the force but she’s not outdueling Kas’im
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 4th 2020, 2:14 pm
Kas'im, Bastila sucks.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 4th 2020, 4:23 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Kas'im, Bastila sucks.
Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 1648373583

Anyways not too up to date on Kas'im, but I would argue she has a good shot. She managed to temporarily duel Malak, held her own in a 1v3 (one of which was her confirmed superior even in a 1v1), and scales above the likes of Bandon, Wynn and Sion. Also noted as the perfect jedi, she probably would have been the big jedi hero of her era if Revan/Meetra didn't take those roles
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 4th 2020, 4:31 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Bastila
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 2:30 am
Kas'im wins. Bastila's scaling off the Malak fight and the 1v3 isn't really viable as her opponent/s didn't want to kill her in both cases.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 7:20 am
them not wanting to kill her doesn't negate the feat, since not wanting to kill is a broad term, especially for Malak who still wanted to hurt her. Not wanting to kill doesn't make existing gaps go away: 

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 4248617-agen%20kolar%20vs%20quinlan%20vos%202

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 4382560-cade%20vs%20krayt%20%236%20%282%29
Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 3780154-4599670735-36570
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 7:52 am
@Nute_Chethray wrote:them not wanting to kill her doesn't negate the feat, since not wanting to kill is a broad term, especially for Malak who still wanted to hurt her. Not wanting to kill doesn't make existing gaps go away:

But if the power gap is large enough then one would have to hold back significantly in case too much of their power is used and they accidentally give a mortal injury to their opponent. In the case of something like Revan/Jolee/Juhani vs Bastila, the power gap is so drastic that Revan could genuinely kill her without even intending to. I mean, if Revan was genuinely trying, then how did he get put on his ass by Bastila's TK and then shortly after, withstand Malak's full potency when Malak is much more powerful (and boosted by the Star Forge)?

As for the case of Malak vs Bastila, Malak was straight up capable of immobilizing her via stasis when he was actually trying. So that scaling is even more obviously flawed.


Now let's break down a couple of your examples:

In the case of Vos vs Kolar, Kolar was in a similar position to Revan so not a bad example to compare to. However, it doesn't really serve to prove your point. What we see in their fight was clearly only a fraction of what Kolar was capable of. Given he is established as being in the same ballpark as Fisto, we know his dueling is far more than what is seen. If anything, it serves as an example of holding back due to not wanting to kill.

Krayt is very obviously holding back when you consider what a weaker version is capable of doing in terms of damage output (such as in his fight with Abeloth).

Note that in both cases, Vos and Cade don't get any viable scaling from the fights you have displayed. Same case with Bastila. At least with Kas'im, his feats/accolades are essentially context-free.



S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 9:08 am
Bastila Shan = superior raw power + command of the Force
Lord Kas'im = superior skills with a lightsaber

"The dark side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi Masters. ... Eventually there will be no limit to what I can accomplish with the Force!" - Bastila Shan to Revan on Lehon Temple.

She was second only to Darth Malak in his Empire at this point in time - all aspects considered. She was able to overwhelm Revan and his companions in a fight on Lehon Temple and make her way to Star Forge for instance. Revan was stronger at this point in time then he used to be back in the days of Darth Revan.

Lord Kas'im was able to hold his own against a young Darth Bane in a fight inside the Lehon Temple - same Darth Bane who found Darth Revan to be infinitely superior to the Brotherhood Sith in his time.

Well...
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 9:16 am
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:Bastila Shan = superior raw power + command of the Force
Lord Kas'im = superior skills with a lightsaber

"The dark side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi Masters. ... Eventually there will be no limit to what I can accomplish with the Force!" - Bastila Shan to Revan on Lehon Temple.

She was second only to Darth Malak in his Empire at this point in time - all aspects considered. She was able to overwhelm Revan and his companions in a fight on Lehon Temple and make her way to Star Forge for instance. Revan was stronger at this point in time then he used to be back in the days of Darth Revan.

Lord Kas'im was able to hold his own against a young Darth Bane in a fight inside the Lehon Temple - same Darth Bane who found Darth Revan to be infinitely superior to the Brotherhood Sith in his time.

Well...

Superior raw power and command of the force? Care to back that up with some evidence?

So Bastila having a brag session counts as tangible scaling? I mean even when her ego is most inflated she admits inferiority to people like Vrook, Vandar, Kavar, etc. Also, as I noted before, Revan was not even close to going all out on Bastila so she cannot scale off Revan in any way, shape, or form.

And Bane was far superior to everyone in the brotherhood at the time with the exception of Kas'im. What's your point?
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 10:00 am
@Trayus Marauder wrote:
Superior raw power and command of the force? Care to back that up with some evidence?

So Bastila having a brag session counts as tangible scaling? I mean even when her ego is most inflated she admits inferiority to people like Vrook, Vandar, Kavar, etc. Also, as I noted before, Revan was not even close to going all out on Bastila so she cannot scale off Revan in any way, shape, or form.

Do the following count?

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 4420448-2865350894-yal7l

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Latest?cb=20101125101927

Holding her own in a battle involving Darth Revan and his Elite Dark Jedi warriors.

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 4420475-6355540190-Krp9Q

That looks like a STRIKE TEAM.

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 4420477-2429851518-Krp9o

"This door is held closed by some great power."

Bastila does not admit inferiority to any Jedi Master by name - she simply mentioned that only a few were stronger than her at the time (historical context?).

@Trayus Marauder wrote:
And Bane was far superior to everyone in the brotherhood at the time with the exception of Kas'im. What's your point?

But was he stronger than Darth Revan at the time? I really doubt this.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 10:18 am
@S_W_LeGenD

Your first gif is of Bastila beating some sith grunt. Hardly an impressive feat

The pic of Revan/Bastila contradicts the events of Kotor where no such force attack occurred. No dice on that one.

Revan/Juhani/Jolee had no motive for killing Bastila and given the vast power disparity between Revan and Bastila, it's pretty clear that he was far from going all out. Same applies when he faced Bastila on the Star Forge. The dialogue choices offered only support this theory.

In relation to Bastila's brag session, I'll restate my doubts that it can be classified as objective scaling. It can be filed under a similar category to Malak's smug remark of Revan being an insignificant speck beneath his notice.

Finally, I never said that Bane was equal to or above Darth Revan. I merely pointed out that both individuals are vastly above the Brotherhood so I wasn't quite sure what point you were trying to make.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 10:55 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Trayus Marauder wrote:
@Nute_Chethray wrote:them not wanting to kill her doesn't negate the feat, since not wanting to kill is a broad term, especially for Malak who still wanted to hurt her. Not wanting to kill doesn't make existing gaps go away:

But if the power gap is large enough then one would have to hold back significantly in case too much of their power is used and they accidentally give a mortal injury to their opponent. In the case of something like Revan/Jolee/Juhani vs Bastila, the power gap is so drastic that Revan could genuinely kill her without even intending to. I mean, if Revan was genuinely trying, then how did he get put on his ass by Bastila's TK and then shortly after, withstand Malak's full potency when Malak is much more powerful (and boosted by the Star Forge)?  

As for the case of Malak vs Bastila, Malak was straight up capable of immobilizing her via stasis when he was actually trying. So that scaling is even more obviously flawed.


Now let's break down a couple of your examples:

In the case of Vos vs Kolar, Kolar was in a similar position to Revan so not a bad example to compare to. However, it doesn't really serve to prove your point. What we see in their fight was clearly only a fraction of what Kolar was capable of. Given he is established as being in the same ballpark as Fisto, we know his dueling is far more than what is seen. If anything, it serves as an example of holding back due to not wanting to kill.

Krayt is very obviously holding back when you consider what a weaker version is capable of doing in terms of damage output (such as in his fight with Abeloth).

Note that in both cases, Vos and Cade don't get any viable scaling from the fights you have displayed. Same case with Bastila. At least with Kas'im, his feats/accolades are essentially context-free.



1v3; revan was pushed back by bastilla because she preumsably found a gap in his defences (pluss the other 2), which is cause for her to scale based on skill/mastery. Revan being unable to block it shows exactly that, and you saying that "revan could kill her" turns irrelevant because his force shield couldn't possibly hurt her. 

Malak: Yes Malak was capable of putting her in stasis, however she when it turned into pure lightsaber combat, we see her holding her own. Therefore she can be compared to him in skill. 

Kolar/Vos: Actually it serves me perfectly, especially now that you supported what I argued. Kolar holds back against Vos, and oneshots him. Vos is unable to offer resistance against even "a fraction of what Kolar was capable of". 

Same with Krayt/Cade, Krayt is "very obviously holding back" and is already winning without cade getting a hit in. 

However when Bastilla fought the trio, she managed to force push all three at once and temporarily floor them, despite having had a duel with them beforehand. Clearly the gap between Revan/Bastilla isn't that huge if in all other proposed examples the stronger forceusers always dominate with a "fraction" of their power, and Revan can't even defend himself from a force push (again, he's superior, but the gap is lesser).
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 10:58 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Also as for Bastilla just "bragging", as Malak's apprentice, she is the greatest in the empire besides Malak. 

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:"A Shadow Hand's expertise in cruelty, trickery and the dark side are second only to the Master - for now."
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 6th 2020, 5:30 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Cheth gets more power by the second, especially after posting Rep comic scans Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 3344068304
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 7th 2020, 6:48 am
@Nute_Chethray wrote:1v3; revan was pushed back by bastilla because she preumsably found a gap in his defences (pluss the other 2), which is cause for her to scale based on skill/mastery. Revan being unable to block it shows exactly that, and you saying that "revan could kill her" turns irrelevant because his force shield couldn't possibly hurt her.

Malak: Yes Malak was capable of putting her in stasis, however she when it turned into pure lightsaber combat, we see her holding her own. Therefore she can be compared to him in skill.

Kolar/Vos: Actually it serves me perfectly, especially now that you supported what I argued. Kolar holds back against Vos, and oneshots him. Vos is unable to offer resistance against even "a fraction of what Kolar was capable of".

Same with Krayt/Cade, Krayt is "very obviously holding back" and is already winning without cade getting a hit in.

However when Bastilla fought the trio, she managed to force push all three at once and temporarily floor them, despite having had a duel with them beforehand. Clearly the gap between Revan/Bastilla isn't that huge if in all other proposed examples the stronger forceusers always dominate with a "fraction" of their power, and Revan can't even defend himself from a force push (again, he's superior, but the gap is lesser).

Your argument here pretty much defeats itself. You essentially concede to Malak being able to easily dominate Bastila in the force and then you try to justify Bastila's force wave feat as legitimate despite the fact that Revan's shielding could hold against Malak. So Bastila being able to push Revan at full strength/maximum effort isn't exactly a logical conclusion.

Bastila is never seen holding her own in saber combat. All we see is one flurry from Malak where based on the brief visuals we get, Malak seems to be overwhelming Bastila.

So are you trying to argue that Revan couldn't dominate Bastila with a fraction of his power similar to Kolar/Krayt? Again, I'll refer you to the Malak scaling that Revan possesses.

This argument of force shields not being affected by fighters holding back doesn't really work given that we have examples of cases where one is holding back and their shielding (as well as overall force use) isn't as potent as usual. A prime example would be Galen vs PROXY (Anakin module). In this battle we see PROXY push away Galen's saber despite the fact that Galen has been able to shield against far worse. But given that Galen was holding back, his shielding wasn't at its peak.

The Force Unleashed Novelisation wrote:But despite his intellectual interest in PROXY'S handiwork, his heart wasn't in it.

...

PROXY had used his repulsors to imitate a telekinetic push that sent the hilt of the lightsaber spinning across the room and back again

Bastila being second in Malak's empire isn't necessarily impressive when you consider the caliber of the rest of the sith. None of them have feats that could be classified as outstanding.

Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 7th 2020, 7:47 am
First off, Malak > Leviathan Bastila does not mean Malak > Prime Bastila (although he is superior). Revan blocking attacks from Malak is irrelevant when I put Bastila pushing him on skill and mastery, not power. 

Bastila holding off Malak for long enough for Revan and Carth to escape suggests she lasted longer off screen. Further its important to note that Leviathan Bastila was conflicted and therefore unable to perform as she could in proper conditions. 

Bastila Shan said wrote:“Every time I try to call on all my teachings to calm myself, they fail me.”

“I need to be away from this bond of ours. I need to weaken it.”

“But Malak must be stopped, my own feelings are nothing compared to that. Yet I know this could affect the sake of our mission if not resolved - I can’t let that happen.” 

“Malak has to be stopped. How can I do that if I let myself be blinded by my feelings for you?”


Said scaling is irrelevant to the point. 

Again, nothing indicates that PROXY didn't succeed at doing so through a gap in Galen's defences.

As for being second in the empire, the opposite applies actually. KOTOR era forceusers are noted to be particularily skilled in combat: 


Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat. 


Further she scales massively above the likes of Jorak Uln, one of the many acolytes of Kun who each killed their masters, and Sion, who was essentially immortal and was one of the leaders of the jedi purge. Sion even scales above the Exile at the same period of time she can beat jedi masters Lamar and Kavar.

And I've yet to see any reason why Kas'im is impressive in comparison.
Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 7th 2020, 9:27 am
Kas’im.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 8th 2020, 2:47 pm
@Trayus Marauder wrote:
Your first gif is of Bastila beating some sith grunt. Hardly an impressive feat

Do you think Darth Revan would have confidence in abilities of 'some Sith grunt' to face a Jedi Strike Team that had come to capture him?

While Darth Revan and Darth Malak were well-known figures of the Empire they helped create, a number of actual Sith Lords were serving both who were in charge of entire fleets or battalions in individual capacity, and some were rulers of captured worlds in individual capacity.

The individual [in question] was either a Sith Lord or a Bladeborn. Some Sith grunt had no business fighting alongside Darth Revan in his very flagship.

Somebody insignificant for the duel was choked to death by Darth Revan himself while facing the Jedi Strike Team because he wanted CANON FODDER out of his way.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:
The pic of Revan/Bastila contradicts the events of Kotor where no such force attack occurred. No dice on that one.

There is no contradiction.

It is possible Bastila Shan subjected Darth Revan to her telekinetic powers at some point in the course of events outside the footage in KoTOR.

Bastila even remarked ''You cannot win, Revan!'' How would she be so confident without having a measure of the abilities of her opponent beforehand?

All known details perfectly are in sync. And let us not forget that Bastila kept post-blast comatose Revan alive with her powers.

Bastila was among the most active combatants of the Jedi Order earlier, she was a well-known figure to the Sith by and large.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:
Revan/Juhani/Jolee had no motive for killing Bastila and given the vast power disparity between Revan and Bastila, it's pretty clear that he was far from going all out. Same applies when he faced Bastila on the Star Forge. The dialogue choices offered only support this theory.

Jedi do not want to kill by default but when they have to fight, they fight with 'expectations' in mind.

They all knew what Bastila was capable of and capturing her would be really helpful, but they could not.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:
In relation to Bastila's brag session, I'll restate my doubts that it can be classified as objective scaling. It can be filed under a similar category to Malak's smug remark of Revan being an insignificant speck beneath his notice.

This:

"You must now face down three Dark Jedi (dark side) or Bastila herself (light side) in an epic battle next to the Star Forge! Combat is fraught and frantic, but should end with your victory." - KoTOR Prima Official Guide

@Trayus Marauder wrote:
Finally, I never said that Bane was equal to or above Darth Revan. I merely pointed out that both individuals are vastly above the Brotherhood so I wasn't quite sure what point you were trying to make.

Lord Kas'im was very much a member of the Brotherhood at the time and Darth Bane entertained the possibility of making him his apprentice at most, but this was not to be. Darth Bane's evaluation of Darth Revan extend to all members of Brotherhood including Lord Kas'im.

"Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood." - Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Darth Revan was stronger than any Jedi in his time including the likes of Lucien Draay and Vandar Tokare, and a master of great many powers which were ALIEN to the likes of Lord Kas'im, and would have destroyed the latter with his Sith Sorcery (assuming a hypothetical duel). And Bastila was exchanging blows with this man.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 9th 2020, 8:22 am
@Nute_Chethray

@Nute_Chethray wrote: First off, Malak > Leviathan Bastila does not mean Malak > Prime Bastila (although he is superior). Revan blocking attacks from Malak is irrelevant when I put Bastila pushing him on skill and mastery, not power.

Bastila holding off Malak for long enough for Revan and Carth to escape suggests she lasted longer off screen. Further its important to note that Leviathan Bastila was conflicted and therefore unable to perform as she could in proper conditions.

Leviathan Bastila and prime Bastila would only be a minor difference in power. It's not like she had extensive time to train or master new abilities given the time frame of events. So it's not reasonable to conclude that she grew to a point where she could even begin to overcome the massive gap between her power/skill as of the Leviathan fight and Malak's total power/skill.

Or it could suggest Revan/Carth were able to escape pretty rapidly and Malak dedicated his efforts to maintain his hold on Bastila rather than focus his attention on an insignificant speck beneath his notice (how he saw Revan prior to their forge fight).

As for those quotes on Bastila's conflict, I find it doubtful that this would be in play when one of the quotes mentions how Malak is her priority.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Said scaling is irrelevant to the point.

Again, nothing indicates that PROXY didn't succeed at doing so through a gap in Galen's defences.

Well, before this module fight, Galen was able to defend in force clashes between himself and Rahm Kota:

The Force Unleashed Novel wrote:This time he pushed telekinetically as he came, attempting to knock Kota's feet out from under him before bringing his blade to bear.

Again, however, Kota deflected his Force energies back at him. Again they were pushed apart.

Given PROXY is only a droid who could mimic a TK attack, it would pale in comparison to two force users who had the TK potency to destroy the factory they were dueling on.

As for your quote relating to the skill of KOTOR force wielders, what is regarded as skillful clearly isn't a high bar when the accolade mentions being able to battle a generic Jedi or Sith as being impressive.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Further she scales massively above the likes of Jorak Uln, one of the many acolytes of Kun who each killed their masters, and Sion, who was essentially immortal and was one of the leaders of the jedi purge. Sion even scales above the Exile at the same period of time she can beat jedi masters Lamar and Kavar.

And I've yet to see any reason why Kas'im is impressive in comparison.

Quote to place Bastila>Sion? Not saying you're wrong I just don't remember the quote in question. The Jorak scaling is pretty unimpressive overall.

I was more focused on being thorough with the downfall of Bastila. Don't worry, I'll get to Kas'im in due time but for now, there seems to be a lot of Bastila arguments to sift through so you'll have to bear with me.


@S_W_LeGenD

@S_W_LeGenD wrote:Do you think Darth Revan would have confidence in abilities of 'some Sith grunt' to face a Jedi Strike Team that had come to capture him?

While Darth Revan and Darth Malak were well-known figures of the Empire they helped create, a number of actual Sith Lords were serving both who were in charge of entire fleets or battalions in individual capacity, and some were rulers of captured worlds in individual capacity.

The individual [in question] was either a Sith Lord or a Bladeborn. Some Sith grunt had no business fighting alongside Darth Revan in his very flagship.

Somebody insignificant for the duel was choked to death by Darth Revan himself while facing the Jedi Strike Team because he wanted CANON FODDER out of his way.

Evidence that the Sith grunt was called there specifically be Revan? Another plausible explanation is that he happened to be giving Revan updates on the battle and happened to get caught there. Given Revan's superiority, it's very unlikely he would call some random Sith to aid him who could possibly get in his way.

Ruling a world doesn't equal to combat prowess whatsoever. Same with being in charge of fleets.

Malak had Sith grunts on his ship, no reason why Revan couldn't have the same.

Note the one being choked was a republic officer (made clear by the uniform colour). Revan was simply killing an opponent.

@S_W_LeGenD wrote:There is no contradiction.

It is possible Bastila Shan subjected Darth Revan to her telekinetic powers at some point in the course of events outside the footage in KoTOR.

Bastila even remarked ''You cannot win, Revan!'' How would she be so confident without having a measure of the abilities of her opponent beforehand?

All known details perfectly are in sync. And let us not forget that Bastila kept post-blast comatose Revan alive with her powers.

Bastila was among the most active combatants of the Jedi Order earlier, she was a well-known figure to the Sith by and large.

So where was this other battle between Revan and Bastila?

Bastila noting that Revan cannot win was an indication of Revan's strategic position as a whole, not necessarily a judgment on fighter v fighter. Even if he won there, there were Republic/Jedi ships ready to take him out. Note that on the Leviathan, Malak notes that he could take down the Jedi (and the republic fleet) and Revan in one move, wiping all his enemies out. So Bastila's comment could have been one of the following conclusions:

A. Bastila was trying to throw Revan off mentally to gain an edge
B. Bastila judged that the team plus the fleet put Revan in an impossible spot and was correct in her assessment
C. Bastila judged that the team plus the fleet put Revan in an impossible spot and was incorrect in her assessment

Bastila's healing capabilities are solid but that doesn't translate to combat prowess. Same as her fearsome battle meditation isn't an indicator of combat prowess.

She was well known to the Sith due to the way her battle meditation could tip the scales of the war. She wasn't known for being a dueling/force using combat threat.

@S_W_LeGenD wrote: Jedi do not want to kill by default but when they have to fight, they fight with 'expectations' in mind.

They all knew what Bastila was capable of and capturing her would be really helpful, but they could not.

With your first line, you're just helping me make my case. You've established that all 3 didn't want to kill Bastila and as I've explained with Revan, he would have to really micromanage his force usage to ensure that goal is met.

As for Bastila's capabilities, it's interesting you bring that up because that's another reason for the party self-restricting. Given the massive Sith fleet, the Republic would need her battle meditation to win. As such, keeping her alive and unharmed was paramount.

@S_W_LeGenD wrote:This:

"You must now face down three Dark Jedi (dark side) or Bastila herself (light side) in an epic battle next to the Star Forge! Combat is fraught and frantic, but should end with your victory." - KoTOR Prima Official Guide

Note the epic battle is established whether you vs Bastila or not so the quote isn't trying to buff her. It's hyping up the conflict itself as well as its significance on the events of the story as well as the SW universe as a whole. And the quote establishes your victory so it doesn't even entertain the idea that defeat is on the table indicating that Revan and his team are guaranteed to beat everything in the Forge.

@S_W_LeGenD wrote:Lord Kas'im was very much a member of the Brotherhood at the time and Darth Bane entertained the possibility of making him his apprentice at most, but this was not to be. Darth Bane's evaluation of Darth Revan extend to all members of Brotherhood including Lord Kas'im.

"Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood." - Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Darth Revan was stronger than any Jedi in his time including the likes of Lucien Draay and Vandar Tokare, and a master of great many powers which were ALIEN to the likes of Lord Kas'im, and would have destroyed the latter with his Sith Sorcery (assuming a hypothetical duel). And Bastila was exchanging blows with this man.

Well, we can safely conclude that Bane's assessment is flawed given that Bane can oneshot any of the brotherhood yet Kas'im is capable of beating him in battle. A bit difficult to trust the analysis of someone who grossly misjudged the power of Kas'im. So you've just helped to debunk that Revan hype.

As for the quote being used, this has been misrepresented. The quote is a representation on Bane's philosophy on what Sith should be. Bane views Revan as a true Sith while the Brotherhood don't follow what Sith should be. Just for a little English refresher, here is what simpering means:

Simpering definition:

ADJECTIVE
Affectedly coy or ingratiating.

Coy- making a pretence of shyness or modesty which is intended to be alluring.
Ingratiating- intended to gain approval or favour; sycophantic.

Note that nowhere in those definitions does it mention anything relating to strength, weakness or power. It is in reference to the attitude and mindset of the brotherhood.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 10th 2020, 6:07 am
The difference is that Leviathan Bastila was hindered (as explained) while prime Bastila wouldn't be. Being emotionally conflicted can hinder one alot, for example as shown when Nomi severed Ulic. 

Revan was an "insignificant speck beneath his notice" that Malak still felt the need to have a lengthy duel with and send sith fighters after once he escaped Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 1668617588

Saying that the quotes don't apply since Malak is her priority is ignoring the full quote: 


Bastila said wrote:“But Malak must be stopped, my own feelings are nothing compared to that. Yet I know this could affect the sake of our mission if not resolved - I can’t let that happen.” 

Bastila specifically states that her current emotional state could compromise the mission that is her priority. Infact that her mind is conflicted between her emotions and goals would only further complicate matters. 

Your Galen quote shows Kota deflecting the push and Galen being pushed back. So it shows the opposite of what you claim. And lesser power still wouldn't prevent PROXY from finding a gap in his defences. 

I don't really get your point, how does being able to beat sith/dark jedi make them being "experts", "masters of the battlefield" and "highly skilled duelists" wrong? And if all those three apply, that would only raise the dark jedi/sith of the era to the same level (which makes sense since they're mando wars veterans), not lower the jedi. 

Sion was part of Malak's sith empire and therefore bellow Bastila (per the quote shown earlier). Further, Sion isn't even just one step bellow Bastila, he's below Jorak: 


Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote wrote:The Sith students of Darth Revan and Darth Malak are many of the same Jedi Crusaders that once fought for the republic. Already proficient in the Jedi arts, these marauders acquire new nefarious talents studying at the feet of Headmaster Jorak Uln - one of Exar Kun's original Sith acolytes.

During the Dark Wars, surviving Sith students submit to the triumvirate.

Cause for Jorak being unimpressive? He's a former jedi knight/padawan who killed his jedi master, has a shard of the Dark Holocron (the most powerful holocron of the sith), and was the headmaster of Korriban, a position granted to the strongest of the sith (except emperor + apprentice). 

Fair enough on you having lots of stuff to reply to. I don't want to do a 2v1, so once you finish with Legend you can tag me if you still want to continue Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im 1289255181
Thij
Thij

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 10th 2020, 12:42 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Bastila.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

on November 13th 2020, 7:00 am
@Nute_Chethray

Apologies for the wait. My response will be divided into two sections for your reading convenience.

Section 1- The Kas'im victory file (finally)

Sub section A- Kas'im martial superiority

This sub section boils into multiple factors that contribute to Kas'im being able to utterly dominate Bastila in terms of dueling. The first being Kas'im and his technical expertise where he is known as one of the best duelists of all time up until that point with absolute mastery of the 7 forms:

Path of Destruction wrote: Kas'im's form and technique were flawless.

Path of Destruction wrote: Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.

We must observe his speed. To my knowledge, Kas'im reached levels of speed that Bastila has never even approached:

(context for the following quote- bane moved as fast as a blur at this point. Also, Kas'im was holding back substantially)

Path of Destruction wrote: There was a hiss as the downstroke of his blade carved through the air in the first move, a blur of motion ... but far too slow. Kas'im responded by slipping to the side and bringing his own double-bladed weapon around in a long, swift arc that struck Bane hard in the ribs.

Path of Destruction wrote: The Blademaster was unrelenting in his pressure. He seemed to wield six blades rather than two.

To wrap this up, Bastila loses the dueling aspect of this fight for two essential reasons. Firstly, Kas'im arguably has the greatest amount of technical skill out of any duelist she has faced and is outmatched in terms of raw speed. Secondly, Bastila being so thoroughly outmatched in speed and dueling leads to what I like to call the Grievous Effect. This is where duels can be won vs force suers where they can't even exploit their abilities due to being under such consistent saber pressure. Though even if Bastila could call on offensive force techniques, they would fail as will be assessed in sub section B.


Sub section B- Force technicality

I'll keep this section brief as its nature is quite simplistic but also effective. While Bastila has a range of force options at her disposal, her potency is lacking overall as we have never seen any decent power feats displayed by her. Where the technicality comes in is that Kas'im has evidence of being able to swiftly shield himself from force attacks that are much more powerful than anything Bastila has produced. Essentially, Bastila could never harm him through the force due to his shielding as well as his overwhelming speed/technique. He could brick wall her in all aspects if that was his desire. Just for reference, the force wave he blocks here was capable of turning him into pulp and destroying the temple of the Ancients:

Path of Destruction wrote: The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Section 2- Continued responses (to the present Bastila arguments and counterpoints)

@Nute_Chethray wrote: The difference is that Leviathan Bastila was hindered (as explained) while prime Bastila wouldn't be. Being emotionally conflicted can hinder one alot, for example as shown when Nomi severed Ulic.

Revan was an "insignificant speck beneath his notice" that Malak still felt the need to have a lengthy duel with and send sith fighters after once he escaped Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

Saying that the quotes don't apply since Malak is her priority is ignoring the full quote:


Bastila said wrote:
“But Malak must be stopped, my own feelings are nothing compared to that. Yet I know this could affect the sake of our mission if not resolved - I can’t let that happen.”

The way Malak handled Revan can be explained quite easily. The duel was to feed his own ego to say he killed his old master which he always wanted to do. As for the fighters, Malak wanted Revan and his companions dead but they were nowhere near as important as securing Bastila as a weapon that could effectively win him every battle he goes into.

As for the conflict, I'd say there was none that is evident. You cited Ulic as an example but in that case, the emotional hindrance was clear. He had just killed his own brother so the emotions were raw and immediate. Bastila's case was nothing more than expressing the potential for conflict. Whether it came into play vs Malak is effectively unprovable.

@Nute_Chethray wrote: Your Galen quote shows Kota deflecting the push and Galen being pushed back. So it shows the opposite of what you claim. And lesser power still wouldn't prevent PROXY from finding a gap in his defences.

I don't really get your point, how does being able to beat sith/dark jedi make them being "experts", "masters of the battlefield" and "highly skilled duelists" wrong? And if all those three apply, that would only raise the dark jedi/sith of the era to the same level (which makes sense since they're mando wars veterans), not lower the jedi.

Sion was part of Malak's sith empire and therefore below Bastila (per the quote shown earlier). Further, Sion isn't even just one step bellow Bastila, he's below Jorak:

Note several factors of that push back:

1. Galen grew between that fight and the Anakin simulation fight
2. Galen did not make an active attempt to shield himself
3. The end result way only creating a minor gap between the two fighters which honestly isn't bad when you compare it to losing your saber

So when dealing with telekinesis that was capable of destroying a factory, Galen's passive shields could protect him to the point where he was only pushed back a little. Meanwhile, against the Anakin simulation, his saber was blown out of his hand. Now I'm sure we can both agree that Galen and Kota have infinitely more telekinetic potency than proxy so clearly, his fight with proxy was evidence of his shielding being sub par. As such, we can conclude that holding back or not fighting with full investment in winning can actively hinder shielding.

To put it simply, because jedi/sith were of a much lower standard. Take Bandon for example who is meant to be one of the best of the Sith. Despite this accolade, he was held back by Trask long enough for Revan to have a conversation with Carth, take out a squad of troopers and safely board an escape pod. Needless to say, being able to duel jedi/sith isn't as impressive as it would be in the PT era for example where Jedi killers were actually fearsome combatants.

The Sion scaling and accolade applies to Sion while Malak was still alive. After Malak's death, Sion would have unquestionably grown so the scaling doesn't factor in Sion as fo Kotor2.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Cause for Jorak being unimpressive? He's a former jedi knight/padawan who killed his jedi master, has a shard of the Dark Holocron (the most powerful holocron of the sith), and was the headmaster of Korriban, a position granted to the strongest of the sith (except emperor + apprentice).

Well, Jorak is below Bandon which speaks volumes already. However, an even worse showing is where Melek was able to free Revan and his team from Jorak's hold. Keep in mind that Mekel had been drugged and tortured (likely with force lightning) beforehand.
Sponsored content

Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im Empty Re: Bastila Shan vs Lord Kas’im

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum