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The Adventurous JediLevel Seven
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 10:00 am
Given that Jerec is ~ ROTJ Vader (who is "far more formidable" than ANH Vader), Jerec should be able to take Old Ben (ANH Vader's canonical equal).
DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 11:40 am
Not sure. Lucas’ Ben >> Vader comments are dated, but they’re repeated in that 2010s source and by Chee himself.
lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 11:42 am
DarthAnt66 wrote:Not sure. Lucas’ Ben >> Vader comments are dated, but they’re repeated in that 2010s source and by Chee himself.
ben = ROTJ sheev confirmed
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 12:41 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:Not sure. Lucas’ Ben >> Vader comments are dated, but they’re repeated in that 2010s source and by Chee himself.
Chee doesn't record power levels per his own words and was referring to Lucas' comments that put Ben on the same level as ESB Sidious, and thus ESB and ROTJ Vader on an even higher level by virtue of Luke's superiority to Ben.
OT: Not sure. Depends what your interpretation of "powers" in a relatively hyperbolic passage is. I'm leaning Ben given he held his own for a considerable amount of time against a mentally hindered Vader, but Jerec might be more powerful. Hard to say.
Blush ResponseModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 1:12 pm
Jerec crushes him.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 2:03 pm
BreakofDawn wrote:DarthAnt66 wrote:Not sure. Lucas’ Ben >> Vader comments are dated, but they’re repeated in that 2010s source and by Chee himself.
Chee doesn't record power levels per his own words and was referring to Lucas' comments that put Ben on the same level as ESB Sidious, and thus ESB and ROTJ Vader on an even higher level by virtue of Luke's superiority to Ben.
@BreakofDawn: Chee not recording power levels doesn't mean he doesn't recognize their existence. Obviously, Chee is recognizing their existence by simply stating that Ben is more powerful than Vader. Be mindful that content can be canon under LFL and still not be recorded into the Holocron. Also, I may be forgetting, but I don't recall Chee mentioning Lucas' comparison between Ben and ESB Palpatine there.
Note that I disagree with this idea you can't use the Ben >> Vader quote without also using the Ben ~ Palpatine quote. In the former case Lucas "easily" came up with a "simple explanation" to an existing plot-hole, never went back on it (at least publicly), and has his commentary repeated via other sources. In the latter case, Lucas was toying with a potential future plot point-that was later scrapped and even explicitly retconned his statement by stating Palpatine > Ben in 1982.
As you've shown, Vader grew immensely between ANH and ESB, so it's fair to point out that even if Ben is more powerful in ANH he may not be in ESB or ROTJ.
Vaelias
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 3:17 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:BreakofDawn wrote:DarthAnt66 wrote:Not sure. Lucas’ Ben >> Vader comments are dated, but they’re repeated in that 2010s source and by Chee himself.
Chee doesn't record power levels per his own words and was referring to Lucas' comments that put Ben on the same level as ESB Sidious, and thus ESB and ROTJ Vader on an even higher level by virtue of Luke's superiority to Ben.
@BreakofDawn: Chee not recording power levels doesn't mean he doesn't recognize their existence. Obviously, Chee is recognizing their existence by simply stating that Ben is more powerful than Vader. Be mindful that content can be canon under LFL and still not be recorded into the Holocron. Also, I may be forgetting, but I don't recall Chee mentioning Lucas' comparison between Ben and ESB Palpatine there.
Note that I disagree with this idea you can't use the Ben >> Vader quote without also using the Ben ~ Palpatine quote. In the former case Lucas "easily" came up with a "simple explanation" to an existing plot-hole, never went back on it (at least publicly), and has his commentary repeated via other sources. In the latter case, Lucas was toying with a potential future plot point-that was later scrapped and even explicitly retconned his statement by stating Palpatine > Ben in 1982.
As you've shown, Vader grew immensely between ANH and ESB, so it's fair to point out that even if Ben is more powerful in ANH he may not be in ESB or ROTJ.
Can I see these quotes please ?
The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 3:31 pm
kenobi mandhandles him
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 22nd 2020, 4:27 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:BreakofDawn wrote:DarthAnt66 wrote:Not sure. Lucas’ Ben >> Vader comments are dated, but they’re repeated in that 2010s source and by Chee himself.
Chee doesn't record power levels per his own words and was referring to Lucas' comments that put Ben on the same level as ESB Sidious, and thus ESB and ROTJ Vader on an even higher level by virtue of Luke's superiority to Ben.
@BreakofDawn: Chee not recording power levels doesn't mean he doesn't recognize their existence. Obviously, Chee is recognizing their existence by simply stating that Ben is more powerful than Vader. Be mindful that content can be canon under LFL and still not be recorded into the Holocron. Also, I may be forgetting, but I don't recall Chee mentioning Lucas' comparison between Ben and ESB Palpatine there.
@DarthAnt66 Before I reply, apologies in advance if my formatting is all over the place. It's been a while since I've used the site.
Chee acknowledging those quotes doesn't make them the official stance, nor representative of those of Lucas' and the narrative as a whole. On a platform where he insists that he avoids answering questions relating to power or "who would win/who's stronger?", he simply sticks to the medium presented, in which case he uses George's very early drafts of the script as they are the only real time Lucas commented on the two. Likewise, Lucas never committed those statements to binding material, as they were simply musings as possible ways to explain the story, ones that we can see never came to fruition for obvious reasons, arguably in a similar vein to his Vader being "maybe" 80% of Sidious:
Note that I disagree with this idea you can't use the Ben >> Vader quote without also using the Ben ~ Palpatine quote. In the former case Lucas "easily" came up with a "simple explanation" to an existing plot-hole, never went back on it (at least publicly), and has his commentary repeated via other sources. In the latter case, Lucas was toying with a potential future plot point-that was later scrapped and even explicitly retconned his statement by stating Palpatine > Ben in 1982.
Interestingly, that's consistent with the theme of the films in Lucas' very early material, whereby Sidious is growing stronger throughout:
If we intentionally use Lucas' early words to establish a disparity between Vader and Ben via this power scale, we can in turn use it to establish that as of ANH, Ben and Sidious were on an even level, and by 1983 (just prior to the release of ROTJ) Sidious had continued to grow towards a level 10, and either reached it or almost reached it. In this respect, Lucas' original assertions regarding these number scales and that Sidious > Ben (which, given that you've mentioned it was in 1982, means that it's almost certainly referring to either ESB or ROTJ Sidious) still proves to be accurate, with ESB Sidious having surpassed Ben and quickly approaching the cusp of a 10, which in turn is largely consistent with other secondary, supplementary and tertiary material released prior to, concurrent to, and following this statement.
As such, if we apply Ben > Vader via the number scale (which as I've elaborated upon in my Ben vs Vader blog, contrasts with primary depictions of the fight including the original novel and script and material that followed it) and take into account Vader's mental state and later comments in the ESB Radio Drama that ESB Luke > ANH Vader, the entire numbers system indicates that Vader has surpassed ANH Sidious by ESB (which would put him in the same tier or higher than the likes of the ROTS titans) yet is still massively capped below ESB and ROTJ Sidious, as we see in all lore regarding ESB/ROTJ Vader and ESB/ROTJ Sidious.
Should Ben be a 6 and should ESB Luke be more of a challenge to Vader than him, then ESB Vader would have reached the 6/7 tier and thus rival the likes of ANH Sidious, given Lucas' comments in the same material that Sidious continued to grow towards the tier 10 bracket and thus ANH Ben could be a rival of ANH Sidious.
P.S: If it's not too much trouble, would you mind posting the quote? I think I know which one you're referring to but I want to be sure.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 26th 2020, 11:00 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:Bumping this so I don't forget to get back to you.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 27th 2020, 1:47 pm
@BreakofDawn:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression of your argument is: "Chee doesn't want to comment on power-levels, so he's just deferring to the last time Lucas commented on the subject. However, Lucas did this a long time ago, merely floated the idea, and never cemented it anywhere, so it's not binding."
That's a fair stance, especially under our updated rules that members aren't forced to adhere to Lucasfilm Licensing policy, but note the argument is nevertheless not consistent with Lucasfilm Licensing policy. G-Canon includes both Lucas' official statements and internal draft notes. Chee recognizes that Lucas' 1970s/1980s statements as G-Canon are potentially outdated and so regulates them, but he still uses this quote here, so clearly he doesn't think it's outdated. And the nature of the quote is less Lucas toying with ideas and more Lucas "immediately" devising a "simple explanation" to a possible plot hole and then moving on, never looking back. So, its default status is G-Canon, Chee affirms it as G-Canon by using it and not dismissing it as dated, and there's no reason for it to have changed anyway. Not to mention there's at least three post-ROTJ novels that also float this idea Ben is far more powerful than Vader in the Force, too.
As I noted, this doesn't cause Ben/Vader > ESB Palpatine as Lucas has directly stated in the Making of ROTJ that ESB and ROTJ Palpatine is far more powerful than Vader and Ben. Note the number systems refer to ESB Palpatine, not ANH Palpatine, so you can't try to force some ESB Palpatine >> ESB Vader >> ANH Palpatine dynamic (which would be overwritten by Lucas' Anakin/Maul/Jinn > Vader comments anyway). Also, note the difference between Lucas floating a possible power-level for a future character (Palpatine) versus Lucas looking back at a completed character and solidifying his power-level (Ben).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression of your argument is: "Chee doesn't want to comment on power-levels, so he's just deferring to the last time Lucas commented on the subject. However, Lucas did this a long time ago, merely floated the idea, and never cemented it anywhere, so it's not binding."
That's a fair stance, especially under our updated rules that members aren't forced to adhere to Lucasfilm Licensing policy, but note the argument is nevertheless not consistent with Lucasfilm Licensing policy. G-Canon includes both Lucas' official statements and internal draft notes. Chee recognizes that Lucas' 1970s/1980s statements as G-Canon are potentially outdated and so regulates them, but he still uses this quote here, so clearly he doesn't think it's outdated. And the nature of the quote is less Lucas toying with ideas and more Lucas "immediately" devising a "simple explanation" to a possible plot hole and then moving on, never looking back. So, its default status is G-Canon, Chee affirms it as G-Canon by using it and not dismissing it as dated, and there's no reason for it to have changed anyway. Not to mention there's at least three post-ROTJ novels that also float this idea Ben is far more powerful than Vader in the Force, too.
As I noted, this doesn't cause Ben/Vader > ESB Palpatine as Lucas has directly stated in the Making of ROTJ that ESB and ROTJ Palpatine is far more powerful than Vader and Ben. Note the number systems refer to ESB Palpatine, not ANH Palpatine, so you can't try to force some ESB Palpatine >> ESB Vader >> ANH Palpatine dynamic (which would be overwritten by Lucas' Anakin/Maul/Jinn > Vader comments anyway). Also, note the difference between Lucas floating a possible power-level for a future character (Palpatine) versus Lucas looking back at a completed character and solidifying his power-level (Ben).
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 27th 2020, 2:09 pm
@DarthAnt66 I have a formative to finish so I'll get back to you by the weekend at latest, if all goes well.
PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 27th 2020, 3:44 pm
_________________
Latham2000Level Three
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 27th 2020, 4:49 pm
Ben due to his parity with Sidious.
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 27th 2020, 8:35 pm
oh hell yeah
ESB luke = vader is legit now. time to have ESB luke shitting on vastor. now thats what im talking about. fuck roan shryne and his council member lvl accolade, he can eat shit now, cuz he is >>>>>>>>> luke, who is >>>>>>>> council members, who are ~ Roan, who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> luke. hell yeah. luke > roan > luke scaling is the best.
ESB luke = vader is legit now. time to have ESB luke shitting on vastor. now thats what im talking about. fuck roan shryne and his council member lvl accolade, he can eat shit now, cuz he is >>>>>>>>> luke, who is >>>>>>>> council members, who are ~ Roan, who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> luke. hell yeah. luke > roan > luke scaling is the best.
Deronn_Solo
Re: Jerec vs AnH Ben Kenobi
October 30th 2020, 4:58 am
While Jerec should have the power advantage, I'm not sure if his skill with a blade is up to par.
I'm so outta touch, I completely forgot the scaling chain I had set up for him and Katarn
I'm so outta touch, I completely forgot the scaling chain I had set up for him and Katarn
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