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Seturna
Seturna

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 9th 2020, 4:21 pm
TPM Maul, RoTJ Vader and RoTS Dooku

Standard stuff applies.

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious 5fd6c110
Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious 8f178810
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 9th 2020, 4:36 pm
Team wins but 1 or 2 of them will probably die.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Two
Level Two

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 9th 2020, 4:52 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Sheev hits them with the hand of god
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 9th 2020, 5:21 pm
Dooku puts up a great fight. Vader gets handwaved and Maul gets blitzed.
The Slick Obi
The Slick Obi

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 9th 2020, 8:23 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Is this Canon or Legends?

Canon: Team (D&M die Vader barely wins)

Legends: Sidious rather easily
BigMouthPrick
BigMouthPrick

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 9th 2020, 8:32 pm
Depends on team's synergy and environment, and casualties will be present. In a confined space like The Chancellor's Office, Sheev will be forced to fall-back on saber prowess as the distance will be closed quickly. He can blast Vader with lightning or ragdoll Maul, but these two have proven themselves to be extremely durable and possessive of great endurance. Dooku is more fragile, but he has the skill/knowledge to counter most of Sidious's force attacks. I could see Dooku drawing in Sidious's lightning while the other two go in close with sabers, for example.

Dooku is the kingpin here. If he goes down, Maul can't do anything offensive force-wise, and Vader is a one-trick pony (offensive TK).

The gap is much closer in sabers as all three could individually contend with Sidious for a not-so-insignificant amount of time. If their synergy is good, Sheev goes down unless he separates them (which is dependent on the environment).

In my vision, Sheev gets into a saber fight, maybe wounds Vader, gets disarmed by Dooku, goes all-out with the force and gridlocks with Dooku shortly where Maul distracts him and Vader sacrifices himself to kill Sidious.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 9th 2020, 11:43 pm
Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious 3344068304
Geistalt
Geistalt

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 12:21 am
TheSlickObi knows how it would go down.

BigMouthPrick also has the right general idea, except Dooku got choked across the holo easily by Sidious in TCW and Maul not only wouldn't be able to do anything Force-wise to Sidious, but is pretty much hopeless, almost a nonfactor.

Even in dueling, his speciality, he's rivaled by Dooku and Vader and utterly outmatched against Sidious 1-on-1. If you're a huge Maul fan, you could take the angle that the team beats Sidious with moderate difficulty if they engage him in dueling (because Maul and Savage were almost a half-worthy match for Sidious).
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 1:27 am
Unless Dooku was defending there’s no reason to take the hologram example as legitimate.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 4:19 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku puts up a great fight. Vader gets handwaved and Maul gets blitzed.

Dooku isn't putting up a "great fight" against someone who's beyond IH Anakin that he lost in 12 seconds to. Add in lightning and he probably dies in 5 seconds.

@BigMouthPrick wrote:Depends on team's synergy and environment, and casualties will be present. In a confined space like The Chancellor's Office, Sheev will be forced to fall-back on saber prowess as the distance will be closed quickly.

I don't see why this would be the case. The Podium he fought Yoda on was even more restrictive than his office yet it didn't stop him from abusing his lightning. If he's fast and skilled enough to interrupt Yoda's super speed frenzy mid-strike with lightning, he can deal with these three quite effortlessly.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization wrote:An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.

Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus. But Yoda had faced Force lightning before. To deflect the first bolts, he had to stop his intended strike at the Emperor. Once his initial surprise was over, he reached out to the living Force. The lightning bent, arcing back toward the Emperor.

@BigMouthPrick wrote:He can blast Vader with lightning or ragdoll Maul, but these two have proven themselves to be extremely durable and possessive of great endurance.

Vader died from Sheev's lightning in ROTJ while he was greatly amplified, and even normally, "wouldn't have stood a chance against the power emanating from his Master." Sheev in that scene was holding back to the point that he wasn't able to kill a defenseless, weakened Luke - practically the equivalent of a non-Force-user - so I'd be surprised if an all-out ROTS Sheev wouldn't utterly annihilate Vader with a single Force attack.

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Sheev_would_have_one-shot_Vader

And a far more powerful Maul was also incapacitated by a single Force push from Sidious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&t=160s

@BigMouthPrick wrote:Dooku is more fragile, but he has the skill/knowledge to counter most of Sidious's force attacks. I could see Dooku drawing in Sidious's lightning while the other two go in close with sabers, for example.

Citation needed. If Yoda and an amplified Windu are helpless in the face of Sidious's lightning, then so is Dooku.

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious 6181567-sidious%20vs%20mace

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious 6181589-2607082053-59279

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious 6181601-1674385618-59279

@BigMouthPrick wrote:The gap is much closer in sabers as all three could individually contend with Sidious for a not-so-insignificant amount of time.

Citation is very much needed. In TPM, Sidious was moving so fast that he was literally tracing the outline of Maul's body with his lightsaber and Maul couldn't perceive his moments at all - and an all-out ROTS Sidious is much faster. I'm not convinced of Dooku or Vader's ability to contend either.

Star Wars: Episode I Journal - Darth Maul wrote:Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master.

I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to.

The smile of triumph fades from my face.

"Do you think, " Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"

"No, Master. " What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

@BigMouthPrick wrote:If their synergy is good, Sheev goes down unless he separates them (which is dependent on the environment).

There is nothing Windu could do to save his comrades in the office, so I don't understand how the three potentially having good synergy is going to help them when their opponent is so much faster and so much more powerful.


Last edited by Master Azronger on September 10th 2020, 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Sheev_sig_3
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 4:25 am
@Geistalt wrote:(because Maul and Savage were almost a half-worthy match for Sidious).

Citation needed. An exorbitantly rage amped Maul was defeated virtually instantly by Sidious as soon as he took off the kid gloves.

_________________
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HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 4:38 am
And is stated to have been “barely tested” by the contest in its entirety anyway
Seturna
Seturna

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 5:40 am
Would there be any difference if it’s SoD Maul instead?
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 5:48 am
Not really no. Mauls growth in TCW is entirely predicated on matching Kenobi when hindered and then again after his power growth against base Kenobi. 

So the amount he grew is dependent on how much you think Kenobi was hindered on the tanker.

That’s not enough to make a difference here.
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 7:31 am
Dooku vs Palpatine: If we think Dooku got stomped by Zonakin and Palpatine is probably equal to Mustafar Vader who is superior to Zonakin, Palpatine stomps.

Maul vs Palpatine: Maul got rekt by Palpatine in TCW. If we think Maul was more powerful than ever in TCW and this version of Palpatine is superior to Palpatine who fought Maul, Palpatine godstomps.

Vader vs Palpatine: At best, Vader is equal to ROTJ Luke who is weaker than Jinn. If we think Jinn is weaker than TPM Maul who is much weaker than Palpatine, Palpatine one-shots.

Conclusion

Palpatine defeats them decisively.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 10:44 am
@Seturna wrote:Would there be any difference if it’s SoD Maul instead?

Nah. Palpatine obliterates the whole squad.

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SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 11:06 am
Sheev wins, probably wouldn't have to even use his lightsaber. Ease of victory may change depending on incarnation. Dooku isn't doing anything here.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 11:20 am
@The Slick Obi wrote:Is this Canon or Legends?

Canon: Team (D&M die Vader barely wins)

Legends: Sidious rather easily

If the continuity isn't specified, the default assumption is Legends.

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Meatpants
Meatpants
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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 11:56 am
@Master Azronger wrote:Nah. Palpatine obliterates the whole squad.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 1:48 pm
In canon, The trio wins, Vader nearly ( if not outright ) solos 

In legends, trio gets fodderized.
The Slick Obi
The Slick Obi

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 10th 2020, 5:54 pm
@Master Azronger wrote:
@The Slick Obi wrote:Is this Canon or Legends?

Canon: Team (D&M die Vader barely wins)

Legends: Sidious rather easily

If the continuity isn't specified, the default assumption is Legends.
Ahh, so yeah, this is not much of a contest.
LordAlarcj1782
LordAlarcj1782

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 11th 2020, 1:53 pm
I believe only Grandmasters Yoda and Luke can keep up with Sidious.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 11th 2020, 2:06 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:Sheev hits them with the hand of god
BigMouthPrick
BigMouthPrick

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 12th 2020, 11:30 pm
@Geistalt wrote:TheSlickObi knows how it would go down.

BigMouthPrick also has the right general idea, except Dooku got choked across the holo easily by Sidious in TCW and Maul not only wouldn't be able to do anything Force-wise to Sidious, but is pretty much hopeless, almost a nonfactor.

Even in dueling, his speciality, he's rivaled by Dooku and Vader and utterly outmatched against Sidious 1-on-1. If you're a huge Maul fan, you could take the angle that the team beats Sidious with moderate difficulty if they engage him in dueling (because Maul and Savage were almost a half-worthy match for Sidious).

1. Dooku getting choked out is not a combat-related feat or failing. Dooku is by default in a "helpless" position whenever he interacts with his master (submissive posture and language by default is reason to believe his force "barrier" defenses are down). It would have been suicidal for Dooku to resist (whether or not he could is questionable) Sidious. If I piss off my father and he pins me against a wall and/or hits me, I certainly could defend myself by at least blocking the imminent strikes, but this would be seen as defiance, and I would certainly get kicked out of the house and be in a shitty position.

2. Maul is far from being a non-factor. Yes he's only going to be of much use with a saber than the force, but his TCW showing against Sidious demonstrates that he can at least contend with him—and unlike that duel, Sidious is unlikely to be engaged with any one opponent for more than a few seconds at a time unless he K-Os the other two. He'll tag-team with Vader in sabers while Dooku "snipes" or draws Sidious's force attacks from afar.

@Master Azronger wrote:Dooku isn't putting up a "great fight" against someone who's beyond IH Anakin that he lost in 12 seconds to. Add in lightning and he probably dies in 5 seconds.

Source for RotS Sheev being superior to IH/Mustafar Anakin/Vader in Sabers?

@Master Azronger wrote:I don't see why this would be the case. The Podium he fought Yoda on was even more restrictive than his office yet it didn't stop him from abusing his lightning. If he's fast and skilled enough to interrupt Yoda's super speed frenzy mid-strike with lightning, he can deal with these three quite effortlessly.

I'm thinking more from the point of him spamming telekinesis attacks sort of like what he did in the senate chamber against Yoda with the podiums. And obviously he resorts to lightning once he gets disarmed.

@Master Azronger wrote:Vader died from Sheev's lightning in ROTJ while he was greatly amplified, and even normally, "wouldn't have stood a chance against the power emanating from his Master." Sheev in that scene was holding back to the point that he wasn't able to kill a defenseless, weakened Luke - practically the equivalent of a non-Force-user - so I'd be surprised if an all-out ROTS Sheev wouldn't utterly annihilate Vader with a single Force attack.

RotJ Sidious would be significantly more powerful in the force than his younger self as well, given his period of growth. I do not deny that Sidious would over-power any member of the trio individually, but he would leave himself vulnerable to attacks from the other two by doing so. If he attacks all three simultaneously with lightning, he would be diluting the power of the attack, which would be significantly easier to defend against.

@Master Azronger wrote:Citation needed. If Yoda and an amplified Windu are helpless in the face of Sidious's lightning, then so is Dooku.

He can deflect lightning of at least his own power without much effort:
Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious EvenRichAquaticleech-size_restricted

Doesn't matter though unless he's disarmed. Windu and Yoda were not helpless. This is helpless:

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Nsp1tu78rkak

Sidious concentrating entirely on Mace meant he was theoretically vulnerable to Anakin. Had Anakin swung at him, he would be forced to disengage Mace, or at the very least divert one "hand/stream" of lightning at Anakin, which would halve the power of the attack against either one, allowing Mace to engage Sidious.

A similar scenario would occur in this fight if Sidious tries a sustained attacked. His only option is to integrate brief lightning attacks with his saber attacks (something which I have never seen him demonstrate personally—Dooku has countless feats of this being executed skillfully), or to incapacitate 2/3 combatants long enough to overwhelm one with lightning. How likely the latter scenario is, is the only thing to debate here IMO. 

@Master Azronger wrote:Citation is very much needed. In TPM, Sidious was moving so fast that he was literally tracing the outline of Maul's body with his lightsaber and Maul couldn't perceive his moments at all - and an all-out ROTS Sidious is much faster. I'm not convinced of Dooku or Vader's ability to contend either.

The Maul Journal quote is meaningless as his visual perception of a blade's movements being a blur can be found pretty much everywhere lightsaber duels without implicating that the observer cannot react. E.g Bane's lightsaber being described as a blur against Zannah (yet she can contend with him); regardless, force users use their farsight and precognition to fight (This is the first thing taught to ANH Luke with the training droid on the Millinnium Falcon), not their eyesight primarily. Dooku has contended with Yoda on more than one occasion who is comparable to Sidious is sabers to put it nicely, and a stronger TCW Maul held his own against Sheev. Not sure why you don't think they couldn't contend with him individually for like ~20 seconds. 

@Master Azronger wrote:There is nothing Windu could do to save his comrades in the office, so I don't understand how the three potentially having good synergy is going to help them when their opponent is so much faster and so much more powerful.

1. It's obvious Sidious's force scream—"a wave of hatred, amplified and fueled by the dark side, that is capable of smashing through mental and physical defenses with ease."—played a part in his quick dispatching of Kit, Agen, and Tiin. Even if you choose not to believe that, this jedi trio are inferior combatants on the level of those which Maul, Vader, Dooku have defeated numerous times. They are not comparable.

2. Coordinated "Synergetic" attacks in rapid alternating succession diminishes an opponent's chance to launch a counter-attack any one opponent. This is not debatable. Sidious had to separate Maul from Savage to gut the latter. He will need to do the same here.
AlexSerp
AlexSerp

Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

on September 17th 2020, 9:27 am
@Master Azronger wrote:Vader died from Sheev's lightning in ROTJ while he was greatly amplified, and even normally, "wouldn't have stood a chance against the power emanating from his Master." Sheev in that scene was holding back to the point that he wasn't able to kill a defenseless, weakened Luke - practically the equivalent of a non-Force-user - so I'd be surprised if an all-out ROTS Sheev wouldn't utterly annihilate Vader with a single Force attack.

But Vader didn't die from Starkiller lightning, right?
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Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious Empty Re: Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

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