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Lord Eon
Lord Eon

Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  Empty Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus

on August 22nd 2020, 5:06 pm
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Who would win?
Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  C7d14410
Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  Jacen_11
HeartoftheForce
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on August 22nd 2020, 5:37 pm
Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Lord Eon
Lord Eon

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on August 22nd 2020, 5:41 pm
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Like he did against Anakin?
HeartoftheForce
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on August 22nd 2020, 5:44 pm
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Like he did against Anakin?
I don’t think Caedus could block a single swing from Anakin
Lord Eon
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on August 22nd 2020, 5:45 pm
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Like he did against Anakin?
I don’t think Caedus could block a single swing from Anakin
Why not?
HeartoftheForce
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on August 23rd 2020, 1:55 am
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Like he did against Anakin?
I don’t think Caedus could block a single swing from Anakin
Why not?

Because despite being amped by fear, rage and love for his daughter he was getting overpowered by an "ageing" ( reaching the end of useful life; obsolescent) Aurra Sing?

He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

- Tempest
Lord Eon
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on August 23rd 2020, 2:16 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Like he did against Anakin?
I don’t think Caedus could block a single swing from Anakin
Why not?

Because despite being amped by fear, rage and love for his daughter he was getting overpowered by an "ageing" ( reaching the end of useful life; obsolescent) Aurra Sing?

He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

- Tempest
Actually, he was winning. 

"Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike."

Source: Legacy of the Force: Tempest

And that's Jacen Solo. We know he became much more powerful than ever when he turned to the dark side.
HeartoftheForce
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on August 23rd 2020, 2:21 am
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Like he did against Anakin?
I don’t think Caedus could block a single swing from Anakin
Why not?

Because despite being amped by fear, rage and love for his daughter he was getting overpowered by an "ageing" ( reaching the end of useful life; obsolescent) Aurra Sing?

He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

- Tempest
Actually, he was winning. 

"Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike."

Source: Legacy of the Force: Tempest

And that's Jacen Solo. We know he became much more powerful than ever when he turned to the dark side.

Wait.
 
Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
.....
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. 


- Tempest


So let's take stock.

Jacen opens himself fully to the Dark Side. Drawing on his fear for Allana, anger and hate. He is at full power. This is inarguable.

Despite taking Sing by surprise it is still taking all his concentration to hold her in place. He cannot ragdoll her or blast her or anything of the like. He has to slowly approach with his full power holding her down to strike.

Even then Sing breaks out of his hold and triggers the detonator. The text then notes that even the tiniest flash of the detonator is enough to shatter Caedus' concentration.

Caedus absolutely did use his full power + an emotional amp + the element of surprise on Aurra. Even then it took all he had to hold her he couldn't attack her and she broke free. And yes she did break free hence the smile and being able to trigger the detonator despite Jacens command. The distraction is not what freed her. 


And no Jacen doesn't grow to any meaningful degree past this point. 
LadyKulvax
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on August 23rd 2020, 2:58 am
Isn't he outright stated to be growing more powerful every day? Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  39523600

Also, as far as I know the only person who can even genuinely overpower him by Invincible is Luke. Everyone else is incapable.
Lord Eon
Lord Eon

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on August 23rd 2020, 3:35 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku ragdolls in a mismatch
Like he did against Anakin?
I don’t think Caedus could block a single swing from Anakin
Why not?

Because despite being amped by fear, rage and love for his daughter he was getting overpowered by an "ageing" ( reaching the end of useful life; obsolescent) Aurra Sing?

He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

- Tempest
Actually, he was winning. 

"Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike."

Source: Legacy of the Force: Tempest

And that's Jacen Solo. We know he became much more powerful than ever when he turned to the dark side.

Wait.
 
Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
.....
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. 


- Tempest


[size=32]So let's take stock.[/size]

[size=32]Jacen opens himself fully to the Dark Side. Drawing on his fear for Allana, anger and hate. He is at full power. This is inarguable.[/size]

[size=32]Despite [/size][size=32]taking Sing by surprise it is still taking all his concentration to hold her in place. He cannot ragdoll her or blast her or anything of the like. He has to slowly approach with his full power holding her down to strike.[/size]

[size=32]Even then [/size][size=32]Sing [/size][size=32]breaks out of his hold [/size][size=32]and triggers the detonator. The text then notes that even the tiniest flash of the detonator is enough to shatter Caedus' concentration.[/size]

[size=32]Caedus absolutely [/size][size=32]did [/size][size=32]use his full power + an emotional amp + the element of surprise on Aurra. Even then it took all he had to [/size][size=32]hold her [/size][size=32]he couldn't [/size][size=32]attack her [/size][size=32]and she [/size]broke free.[size=32] And yes she did break free hence the smile and being able to trigger the detonator despite Jacens command. The distraction is not what freed her. [/size]


[size=32]And no Jacen doesn't grow to any meaningful degree past this point. [/size]
It's referring to his current power. Yes, he opened himself to the dark side but it doesn't mean he used his full potential. Luke opened himself to the dark side in ROTJ. Did he use his full potential? No. He reached his full potential when he became grandmaster. And Jacen reached his full potential when he became sith lord. Actually, Jacen was winning. Aurra just found his opening and triggered a detonator.


Last edited by The Rich Man on August 23rd 2020, 3:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Lord Eon
Lord Eon

Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  Empty Re: Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus

on August 23rd 2020, 3:51 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Isn't he outright stated to be growing more powerful every day? Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  39523600

Also, as far as I know the only person who can even genuinely overpower him by Invincible is Luke. Everyone else is incapable.
Yes, he grew stronger every day. And yes, only Luke could defeat him.
Seturna
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on August 23rd 2020, 4:01 am
Dooku wins.
Lord Eon
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on August 23rd 2020, 4:10 am
@Seturna wrote:Dooku wins.
Why?
HeartoftheForce
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on August 23rd 2020, 4:10 am
Isn't he outright stated to be growing more powerful every day?

Which amounts to? Oh right losing to Mara, losing to Katarn after that whose inferior to Mara, coming off poorly in a power comparison with base Jaina whose inferior to both, yeah you get it.


It's referring to his current power.


His current power is all he has at his disposal + an amp from needing to save Alanna. Prove his "prime" power exceeds that.



And Jacen reached his full potential when he became sith lord.

Jacen never reached anything close to his full potential. 



Actually, Jacen was winning. Aurra just found his opening and triggered a detonator.

That would be a no.
Seturna
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on August 23rd 2020, 4:20 am
The Rich Man wrote:
@Seturna wrote:Dooku wins.
Why?
Generally more impressed by his showings.
Lord Eon
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on August 23rd 2020, 4:46 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
Isn't he outright stated to be growing more powerful every day?

Which amounts to? Oh right losing to Mara, losing to Katarn after that whose inferior to Mara, coming off poorly in a power comparison with base Jaina whose inferior to both, yeah you get it.


It's referring to his current power.


[size=32]His current power is all he has at his disposal + an amp from needing to save Alanna. Prove his "prime" power exceeds that.[/size]



And Jacen reached his full potential when he became sith lord.

[size=32]Jacen never reached anything close to his full potential. [/size]



Actually, Jacen was winning. Aurra just found his opening and triggered a detonator.

[size=32]That would be a no.[/size]
Losing to Mara? Lol, no. Note that she had some advantages over him. That's why her performance was that good. She also said Jacen was way beyond her. As for Katarn, Caedus got severely injured while he was fighting Luke. He wasn't completely healed while he was fighting Katarn and others. Katarn still needed a strike team to fight Caedus. And Caedus nearly killed him.

Dark side amp is greater than rage amp. For example, Anakin had became more powerful than ever when he turned to the dark side. Rage amp doesn't amplify you as much as dark side amp does. Jacen had rage amp while he was fighting Aurra. But he had dark side amp while he was fighting Luke. His performance against Luke is definitely better than his performance against Aurra.

Yeah, my bad. Caedus didn't reach his full potential when he became sith lord. But dark side amplified him a lot.

Yes, Jacen was winning. Aurra just found his opening and triggered a detonator. And Aurra is a good warrior. He defeated both Jinn and TPM Kenobi. Both Kenobi and Jiin gave Maul a great fight.
HeartoftheForce
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on August 23rd 2020, 5:23 am
Losing to Mara? Lol, no. Note that she had some advantages over him. That's why her performance was that good.

There were no advantages. Mara collapsed the cave on Jacen, Jacen, amped by the pain, then detonated the rubble with "the force of a bomb" on Mara injuring her to an equal degree. The two then perform equally in exchanges of power and melee combat


Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand

- LotF Sacrifice

So no. Mara is frankly better. Despite Jacen being in the middle of a force adrenaline rush and her recently been hit by the same debris that disabled Jacen by just falling, but flying with the force of a bomb Mara still stalemated and evetually won in the end



She also said Jacen was way beyond her

Which was her own opinion. Not an objective statement. A take that was proven wrong when, being if anything more injured, she defeated Caedus in a fight, with him only being saved by an illusion and a cheapshot. 


As for Katarn, Caedus got severely injured while he was fighting Luke.

Nope. He was amped.


So when Niathal said he did not look well, she was correct. He keenly felt his worst injury. Not the vibroblade wound, not the scalp tear, not the kidney damage-all three were healing. All three were the kind of pain that strengthened him.

-LotF Fury

So no.


Katarn still needed a strike team to fight Caedus.

Strike team was irrelevant


Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan Hu'lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi Knights were no match for him.
Katarn, though, was a threat.


Katarn taxed Caedus on his own despite him being amped to the point where the previously irrelevant knights were beating him down

Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  5043616-combat%20skill%20katarn%20taxes%20caedus

So again no.


And Caedus nearly killed him.

Via a cheapshot while Kyle was distracted. Not the first time an inferior opponent hit someone from behind with an object.


Jaina grasped it in the Force and drew it, stumbling, into Caedus's flank. The droid was more than heavy enough to send Caedus staggering.

- Invincible 

 Although to be fair base Jaina and Caedus are close equals. While both are greatly inferior to Katarn.


"I know that you Masters - and several Jedi Knights - are more skilled in both Force and lightsaber than I am.



- Invincible 





Dark side amp is greater than rage amp. For example, Anakin had became more powerful than ever when he turned to the dark side. Rage amp doesn't amplify you as much as dark side amp does. 

Citations needed for all.


His performance against Luke is definitely better than his performance against Aurra.

The problem that the version of Luke Caedus fought was deliberately prolonging the conflict to harm himself, was contemplating suicide and was experiencing emotional shocks that stopped him from calling on the force. Later when with a clear head encounters Caedus he oneshots. 


Aurra just found his opening and triggered a detonator.

There was no opening. Jacen used all his power and then some to give one command: Wait.

If Aurra is doing anything other than waiting, (like say, arming a detonator) it means she's overpowered his command.

Caedus is a joke. Dooku still stomps.
BigMouthPrick
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on August 23rd 2020, 10:46 am
Dooku schools him
Caelus Pall
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on August 23rd 2020, 11:49 am
Great fight. Dooku edges it for me.

@HeartoftheForce Katarn and Horn were taxed, not Caedus. The wording makes that quite clear.
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on August 23rd 2020, 12:24 pm
@HeartoftheForce

losing to Mara,

>Mara ends the fight dead.

losing to Katarn

>Katarn ends the fight unconscious under a speeder.

Lol.
HeartoftheForce
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on August 23rd 2020, 6:53 pm
Katarn and Horn were taxed, not Caedus. The wording makes that quite clear.



Count Dooku Vs. Darth Caedus  EM09AN

The sentence in question :  "The lightsaber duel taxed both men until Solo managed to use the Force to ram Katarn with a speeder"

This is Kyle's datebook entry. 

Just because all three; Jacen, Valin Horn and Kyle are mentioned in the previous sentence, doesn't detract from the meaning of the next one. 

The two men being discussed are Kyle and Jacen by definition.
LadyKulvax
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on August 23rd 2020, 6:57 pm
Yeah no, in any school of writing, the use of the -- seperates Jacen altogether. It's clearly Katarn and Valin Horn.
HeartoftheForce
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on August 23rd 2020, 7:10 pm
Yeah no, in any school of writing, the use of the -- seperates Jacen altogether. It's clearly Katarn and Valin Horn.


In the previous sentence. New sentence new subject. As any school of writing will tell you. 

Sentence: a set of words that is complete in itself, typically containing a subject and predicate, conveying a statement, question, exclamation, or command, and consisting of a main clause and sometimes one or more subordinate clauses.

It only names Katarn and Caedus. 

This is Katarns encyclopedia entry. Valin is never mentioned beyond this one line. It clearly doesn't include Valin as the fight didn't end when Katarn was slammed. The phrase "until Solo managed to use the Force to ram Katarn with a speeder"  is meant to be indicative of the fight ending.

So yes it is solely Katarn and Jacen being referenced in this sentence as being taxed.

Your complaint about the dash doesn't even make sense as Jacen is referred to outside of it beforehand. So it doesn't even separate him at all. The dash is an aside to inform the reader of his alternate persona.
Bart
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on September 17th 2020, 1:40 pm
Caedus destroys. We've seen how grossly Dooku is to unrestrained Anakin, and Luke is several leagues above that. While Caedus surviving against Luke is a result of many, many circumstances, it's still something I can't see Dooku surviving.
Unending Void
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on September 18th 2020, 4:55 pm
The one who is a near-equal to AOTC Yoda.
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