Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

@LadyKulvax That's neither well-established or a concrete fact. It's a blog from March of this year. Concession accepted.

Please don't come into the forum using debating styles that aren't your own.

Unless you have a legitimate counter argument to what has been presented by literally one of the most venerable and well-respected members of the community then I'd suggest not calling it nor him 'dishonest'.

@LadyKulvax What do you mean by the first line? And I did present an argument. You just didn't read it and relied on someone else's argument, which is kind of ironic, no?

Naga Sadow vs Ludo Kressh rematch

67 BBY is decades before his prime, and no he doesn't. At that time he believed "he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery" due to Tenebrous telling him that "from the start". The passage in question is also Plagueis musing on how Sadow and Kun achieved spiritual immortality through the use of Sith sorcery and ends with him thinking "but none of this amounted to corporeal survival." Plagueis also notes that "crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid" and that "Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death." So you are using a vastly pre-prime Plagueis and a dishonest reading of the text to try to pass off Plagueis as being below Malgus without having to make a proper argument.

You're mixing up different passages. I'll refer you back to the text:

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Plagueis wasn't talking about spiritual immortality via sorcery, he was talking about being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence, which per accounts and holocrons, was something Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun were capable of doing. Their ability to do this is what makes Plagueis concede inferiority. Plagueis does briefly consider sorcery as a possible alternative to inferiority, but he quickly shoots this theory down, pointing out that sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead.

Regarding the quotes you cited earlier, they are referring to the lost art of Essence Transfer, and are unrelated to Plagueis's concession of inferiority to his ancient predecessors:

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn't been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane's disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Now I'm not going to go and claim something outlandish like this argument makes Naga Sadow>67BBY Plagueis a well-established fact, but that's because arguments in this hobby are virtually never indisputable. But I do think its easily solid enough to buy, considering someone as analytical and scientifically orientated(And arrogant) as Plagueis would not make such a proclamation unless he felt the evidence was so strong that he could not deny it. Also I do recommend reading over the blog, it goes a lot deeper into the mechanics of the ability Plagueis is referring to as well as the credibility of Plagueis's assessment. 


@Caelus Pall

Caelus Pall wrote:@LadyKulvax What do you mean by the first line? And I did present an argument. You just didn't read it and relied on someone else's argument, which is kind of ironic, no?

Yes it is, ironic that is. That you think I didn't read it when it's clear, as KoB has so helpfully displayed above, that you haven't at all.

Plagueis