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Seturna
Seturna

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 1:00 pm
R1: FE Malgus
R2: Onslaught Malgus

Give reasons
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 1:21 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Plagueis stomps both rounds. TPM Maul is stated to be stronger than all Sith before him, and Sidious could blitz him, meaning TPM Sidious and Plagueis are far above any version of Malgus.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 1:23 pm
Plagueis. I don't see why Malgus should pass Bane let alone be a challenge for Plagueis.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 1:59 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Plagueis. I don't see why Malgus should pass Bane let alone be a challenge for Plagueis.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 2:22 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Plagueis. I don't see why Malgus should pass Bane let alone be a challenge for Plagueis.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 2:39 pm
Did I miss something regarding Bane? I thought he wasn't looked so highly upon?
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 2:45 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:Did I miss something regarding Bane? I thought he wasn't looked so highly upon?

Some TOR characters aren't looked so highly upon either.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 2:56 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Plagueis. I don't see why Malgus should pass Bane let alone be a challenge for Plagueis.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 3:06 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:Did I miss something regarding Bane? I thought he wasn't looked so highly upon?

Some TOR characters aren't looked so highly upon either.

I guess, but I thought Malgus wasn't one of those either.
winebottle
winebottle

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 9:38 pm
Malgus dies a horrible death
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on July 29th 2020, 9:48 pm
Plagueis, and it's not really debatable.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 19th 2020, 12:57 am
@Caelus Pall wrote:Plagueis stomps both rounds. TPM Maul is stated to be stronger than all Sith before him, and Sidious could blitz him, meaning TPM Sidious and Plagueis are far above any version of Malgus.

That quote absolutely doesn't apply to Legends content. It's from a book that doesn't even reference Legends and is under the TPM 3D re-release.

Onslaught Malgus wins. He's pretty much canonically the second most powerful and dangerous person in the galaxy at that time.

Perhaps more importantly, in a fight against the Outlander & co. he lasts long enough to:

1.Utilise illusions.
2.Taunt the Outlander about not killing them.
3.Laughs at the trio's abilities.
4.Recognises the Outlander's abilities but points out the Outlander can't beat him.
5. The fight finishes with Tau and Arn far off in the background with the Outlander in a ready stance when Malgus finally lowers his weapon.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 11:39 am
@LadyKulvax I believed it was a Legends statement when I made my post. If it isn't, that's fine. Maul still has numerous quotes saying he was one of the best trained Sith in history, some of the best strength feats in the mythos, and performed well against some of the best Force-users of his era. That Plagueis is a stomp gap above him was the point of my post. The same can't be said for Malgus.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 11:43 am
Outlander's more than a stomp gap above Plagueis, so checkmate.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 11:46 am
@LadyKulvax You're going to need to provide some actual proof there, rather than stating it like it's a fact and then saying checkmate.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 12:02 pm
Providing proof for a well-established fact? The Outlander one-shots Act III Hero of Tython, who overpowers Vitiate in the Dark Temple. Vitiate is laughably more powerful than Naga Sadow who is stated to be more powerful than 67BBY Plagueis, by none other than Plagueis himself.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 12:11 pm
So...how does any of that put him above peak Plagueis?
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 12:16 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Plagueis. I don't see why Malgus should pass Bane let alone be a challenge for Plagueis.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 12:23 pm
@LadyKulvax 67 BBY is decades before his prime, and no he doesn't. At that time he believed "he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery" due to Tenebrous telling him that "from the start". The passage in question is also Plagueis musing on how Sadow and Kun achieved spiritual immortality through the use of Sith sorcery and ends with him thinking "but none of this amounted to corporeal survival." Plagueis also notes that "crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid" and that "Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death." So you are using a vastly pre-prime Plagueis and a dishonest reading of the text to try to pass off Plagueis as being below Malgus without having to make a proper argument.

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn't been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane's disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice.

Everlasting life.

Sadly he could glean only so much from the texts, crystals, and holocrons stored in the library. Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded. More to the point, Darth Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 5:58 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:So...how does any of that put him above peak Plagueis?

Because the difference from 67BBY to peak Plagueis is nowhere near as the vast stomp gaps between the Outlander and 67BBY Plagueis.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 6:01 pm
@Caelus Pall wrote:@LadyKulvax 67 BBY is decades before his prime, and no he doesn't. At that time he believed "he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery" due to Tenebrous telling him that "from the start". The passage in question is also Plagueis musing on how Sadow and Kun achieved spiritual immortality through the use of Sith sorcery and ends with him thinking "but none of this amounted to corporeal survival." Plagueis also notes that "crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid" and that "Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death." So you are using a vastly pre-prime Plagueis and a dishonest reading of the text to try to pass off Plagueis as being below Malgus without having to make a proper argument.

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn't been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane's disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice.

Everlasting life.

Sadly he could glean only so much from the texts, crystals, and holocrons stored in the library. Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded. More to the point, Darth Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death.

Yeah how about you actually read one of the most concretely established facts on the forum instead of calling it 'dishonest':

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2804-a-case-for-the-neo-antediluvians
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 9:01 pm
Because the difference from 67BBY to peak Plagueis is nowhere near as the vast stomp gaps between the Outlander and 67BBY Plagueis.
How so?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 9:44 pm
The gaps between prime Onslaught Outlander and Act III Hero of Tython by themselves more than likely already make up for it.

Act III Hero goes through the Dread War and the Revanite War, on Rishi the Outlander goes through a major mental growth recovering from damage done by the Emperor's control prior to the Revan fight. That's all before we even get to KOTFE. KOTFE Outlander is stomped by Arcann, then goes through major power increases via Tenebrae before defeating Arcann. The KOTET Valklander goes from being inferior to Chained Vaylin to pushing through Unchained Vaylin's all-out Force Maelstrom and killing her then point-blank tanking her death wave and walking that off. KOTET Outlander goes through the entire Iokath arc where it's stated the Outlander is becoming Tenebrae-esque in power and only after that do we get to Onslaught.

That's literally just Act III HOT growth scaling and even then I massively skimmed through it. As you are well aware. Going further down the line just makes the gap even more enormous.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 10:14 pm
Yes I'm well aware of the Outlander's growth. You still haven't explained why these gaps are larger than the gap between 67BBY and peak Plagueis. Or how the Outlander being above Plagueis means Malgus is as well.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

on August 23rd 2020, 11:51 pm
The Outlander's growth there is about as much growth as I'm aware of Plagueis actually being stated to recieve across said decades.

As I've stated before, Malgus gives the Outlander and his aid a good fight. Even stating mid-way through that the Outlander has been unable to best him. As well as having the spare power to use illusion spells mid-fight and even has the power to launch Outlander across the combat area after he takes a knee.
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Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Plagueis vs Darth Malgus

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