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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 9:24 am
@mastercilghal wrote:@Better_than_Dooku sorry if I always explain myself so badly. All I was saying was my interpretation of the quote in general, without being specific. 
@LOTL agreed

Yeah, but it is clearly referring to actual strength in the force. They mention it clearly if it is by your interpretation and moreover there are many things that indicate that Kenobi is stronger than Qui Gon in the force
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on June 24th 2019, 9:27 am
@LOTL if I understand correctly, you’re saying Kenobi was already more powerful than Qui Gon as of TPM? In that case i’m Not sure I agree. Strength in the force usually refers to one’s potential, not actualized power.
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on June 24th 2019, 9:30 am
It is evidently talking about actualized power and yeah, quotes like that usually talk about actualized strength( eg. Dooku telling Savage to strengthen his connection to the force, countless quotes on force users becoming stronger in the force) in that context.

That and it is well supported by his battles against Maul
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 9:31 am
Better_than_Dooku wrote:Also everyone, thoughts on this quote?

He [Qui-Gon] is tougher than Obi-Wan but not as strong in the Force.


-Obi-Wan Prima Guide

Scans would be appreciated
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 9:34 am
The full quote too including the other things if you can
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on June 24th 2019, 10:42 am
@LOTL wrote:It is evidently talking about actualized power and yeah, quotes like that usually talk about actualized strength( eg. Dooku telling Savage to strengthen his connection to the force, countless quotes on force users becoming stronger in the force) in that context.

That and it is well supported by his battles against Maul

It being actualised power isn't really supported by everything else. Take for example that Kenobi notes Qui-Gon mastered the Force to a degree on par with the "great Jedi Masters" by TPM. There is no way that this also includes Kenobi as a Padawan, or even a Knight. We have no indication that Kenobi was on par with anyone on the council, let alone the "great masters". Jinn's actualised power is greater than Kenobi's, because Kenobi, while stronger in the force, hasn't yet learnt fully how to utilise it. Hence why Qui-Gon is superior as a combatant both in TPM and AotC, when you throw in that Qui-Gon is way more technically skilled and experienced.
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on June 24th 2019, 10:43 am
I'll give you the scan tomorrow, the full quote is: Qui-Gon is also well rounded (referring to Kenobi). He is tougher than Obi-Wan but not as strong in the Force.
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on June 24th 2019, 10:52 am
Also, reading through other scans of the guide, it uses the word "tough" as meaning overall combative ability. That's the general feel for the use of the word. If that's true, then this is actual confirmation that Jinn is superior to TPM Kenobi as a combatant - of course - that's not needed to prove the position though. But it does help.
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 12:17 pm
Better_than_Dooku wrote:
@LOTL wrote:It is evidently talking about actualized power and yeah, quotes like that usually talk about actualized strength( eg. Dooku telling Savage to strengthen his connection to the force, countless quotes on force users becoming stronger in the force) in that context.

That and it is well supported by his battles against Maul

It being actualised power isn't really supported by everything else. Take for example that Kenobi notes Qui-Gon mastered the Force to a degree on par with the "great Jedi Masters" by TPM. There is no way that this also includes Kenobi as a Padawan, or even a Knight. We have no indication that Kenobi was on par with anyone on the council, let alone the "great masters". Jinn's actualised power is greater than Kenobi's, because Kenobi, while stronger in the force, hasn't yet learnt fully how to utilise it. Hence why Qui-Gon is superior as a combatant both in TPM and AotC, when you throw in that Qui-Gon is way more technically skilled and experienced.

We have Koon's concession of inferiority. Koon easily qualifies as a "great Jedi Master". Furthermore, Kenobi is also described as among the greatest Jedi in the order a year before TPM so not sure why you are bringing this up. His swiftness and skill with the lightsaber is also among the best in the Jedi Order to the extent that he is Yoda's first choice for many unconventional missions meaning Yoda chooses him often above above other Council Members( because he was so good with the lightsaber) so yeah, that is as good a hype as the one you have

Furthermore, being strong in the force means actualized strength in the force. If not, you can't really explain the hundreds of statements that describe force users "growing stronger in the force" if it didn't mean actualized strength. That and if you consistently take that route, half of the currently established chains are just invalidated. Being stronger in the force means being strong enough to utilize it, not that you have the "latent" ability to utilize it( again, be ready to invalidate half of the currently established chains if you consistently take this route) in combat. Of considerable interest though is the full quote:

Qui-Gon is also well rounded (referring to Kenobi). He is tougher than Obi-Wan but not as strong in the Force.

It seems as though it is talking about the strengths and weaknesses of Obi Wan and Qui Gon in combat. In that case, it makes no sense to talk about latent ability.

You can argue that Qui Gon, being more knowledgeable, can channelize his strength into more number of things because naturally he has mastered more applications of the force than Obi Wan. However, his base strength in the force is lower than that of Kenobi even as of TPM.
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 12:30 pm
To give an example:

"You have grown strong in the Force - I can feel its touch upon you."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Obviously this refers to the Exile's increasing abilities. This isn't the only one though, there must be hundreds of examples like this that are just "growing stronger in the force" only. Then you have "being stronger in the force than the other guy" taken to mean that he is stronger than the other guy in actualized strength. Other than general disbelief, I see no reason to not conclude that Obi Wan is stronger in the force than Qui Gon, especially as his augmentation is greater
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 12:36 pm
Better_than_Dooku wrote:I'll give you the scan tomorrow, the full quote is: Qui-Gon is also well rounded (referring to Kenobi). He is tougher than Obi-Wan but not as strong in the Force.

Try to give the full thing. Like the surrounding areas too
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on June 24th 2019, 12:41 pm
@LOTL wrote:We have Koon's concession of inferiority. Koon easily qualifies as a "great Jedi Master".

No, this absolutely is not proof that Koon is an inferior combatant to Kenobi. Koon was likely placing limits on himself, like Fisto did against the same Kenobi during Cestus Deception:

Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan's more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk.

Obi-Wan discovers "swiftly" from the onset of the spar that Fisto was better as a swordsman, so Fisto deliberately curbs himself - by a considerable degree mind you - so that the two can safely spar without Fisto ending it prematurely. What's to say Koon didn't do the same against Padawan Kenobi? Do you think that in all the thousands of spars that Dooku and Qui-Gon had, Dooku just stomped him every time? Cestus Deception talks about the fun aspect of sparring, and sparring also has the obvious utility of teaching. A master or superior swordsman will curb his/her abilities to a certain degree so that the opponent not only doesn't get curbstomped, but also has the right amount of difficulty to learn/overcome.

@LOTL wrote:Furthermore, Kenobi is also described as among the greatest Jedi in the order a year before TPM so not sure why you are bringing this up.

Is this another quote where Kenobi is described as a goodie two-shoes Jedi and you're equating that with meaning one of the most powerful/best combatively?

@LOTL wrote:His swiftness and skill with the lightsaber is also among the best in the Jedi Order to the extent that he is Yoda's first choice for many unconventional missions meaning Yoda chooses him often above above other Council Members( because he was so good with the lightsaber) so yeah, that is as good a hype as the one you have

Do you really want to have an accolades war here between Kenobi and Qui-Gon? Do you, really?

@LOTL wrote:Furthermore, being strong in the force means actualized strength in the force. If not, you can't really explain the hundreds of statements that describe force users "growing stronger in the force" if it didn't mean actualized strength. That and if you consistently take that route, half of the currently established chains are just invalidated.

Explain?

@LOTL wrote:You can argue that Qui Gon, being more knowledgeable, can channelize his strength into more number of things because naturally he has mastered more applications of the force than Obi Wan. However, his base strength in the force is lower than that of Kenobi even as of TPM.

Are you trying to tell me Kenobi would beat Jinn in a Force contest as of TPM?
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 1:20 pm
No, this absolutely is not proof that Koon is an inferior combatant to Kenobi. Koon was likely placing limits on himself, like Fisto did against the same Kenobi during Cestus Deception:

It absolutely is though

Consider this:

"I see Master Qui Gon was not bragging when he said he was training my replacement. You are strong in the Force, young Kenobi. It is no small thing to defeat a Jedi master in combat"

Why on earth would he make that remark if Kenobi is "not strong enough to beat a Jedi Master"? If Koon limited himself, then by proxy he is just apprentice level. Why would he then state that Obi Wan achieving the "great" feat of beating him is impressive?

Not only does he cite that it is a great feat, he also cites and explicitly mentions his rank in the Order. I don't get what is so difficult about this, everyone I communicated this feat to, months before you joined, including Ziggy, ILS, Nova, Ant( who initially brought the feat to my notice) concluded that the quote clearly means that Koon "conceded" inferiority to Obi Wan and that this one quote indicates that Obi Wan is better than him( not their opinion, just the inference from the quote) in combat

Make no mistake, it is a concession of inferiority. You don't concede inferiority by limiting yourself. You concede inferiority if your limits are surpassed by your opponent.

Furthermore, why would he "deceive" Obi Wan into thinking that he has legitimately achieved this "great feat" of beating a "Jedi Master" like Koon? If Koon limited himself, why would he let Obi Wan run away with the idea that he is superior to Koon? That is horribly against Jedi character

Yeah, and the Kit Fisto example is taken wildly out of context. Another misconception I'll have to erase

Is this another quote where Kenobi is described as a goodie two-shoes Jedi and you're equating that with meaning one of the most powerful/best combatively?

That's not even remotely what the quote you are claiming to be means( I'll explain in the argument) and no, these quotes have Obi Wan being among the "greatest" Jedi, most capable Jedi, among the best with swiftness and skill with the lightsaber etc.

And yeah, the one having him as the "finest" Jedi, literally cannot mean anything other than combat in that context

Do you really want to have an accolades war here between Kenobi and Qui-Gon? Do you, really?

I really couldn't care how many accolades he has. His best is being among the most skilled of all time. Kenobi obviously equals that based on his scaling of Koon. That and he has multiple quotes that make him among the best Jedi currently, so yeah, Qui Gon doesn't have any hype that Kenobi doesn't equal.

Explain?

What? You have countless cases of "A is stronger in the force than B" and A>B. If you start invalidating all of them, it's basically uprooting the established hierarchy, and would be a mistake because, as I have stated, you can "grow stronger in the force"( again, there must be countless examples as such) so yeah, the "strong in the force" concept refers to actualized strength, not latent strength.

Are you trying to tell me Kenobi would beat Jinn in a Force contest as of TPM?

In a generic force tug of war? Absolutely, and I'd say that it is a certainty even without the quote. He has more sheer strength in the force even at that young an age

In a contest where you have arcane and esoteric force powers and everything added to the mix? I am not even sure AoTC Kenobi wins that let alone TPM Kenobi
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on June 24th 2019, 2:41 pm
@LOTL wrote:Why on earth would he make that remark if Kenobi is "not strong enough to beat a Jedi Master"? If Koon limited himself, then by proxy he is just apprentice level. Why would he then state that Obi Wan achieving the "great" feat of beating him is impressive?

You’re using titles to flavor your argument in a specific way. Titles don’t mean anything. Mundi was a knight and sat on the council; Anakin was a knight when he defeated Dooku in combat and was above almost all the council. So, let’s just strip away this unnecessary appeal to titles. You’re failing to understand that Kenobi can still “defeat” a holding back Koon. Qui-Gon’s spar with Xanatos comes to mind. Xanatos disarms his master, but nobody argues that padawan Xanatos is > Jinn. There are so many variables that come into play. Maybe Koon was curbing himself, and Kenobi realised a weakness in Koon’s curbed style and disarms him; the result being Kenobi “defeats” Plo Koon. Kenobi even does this against Maul. He realises he’s going to lose and expends the last of his energy in cutting the saberstaff in half. And again, the fight was a spar, and we don’t know anything about what happened in the actual spar, nor the circumstances, like we do in Cestus Deception. As such, using a spar with a dubious outcome (the game also has you “defeat” Tiin as an objective), not knowing the circumstances and relying on a humble comment from Koon does not prove that TPM Kenobi is > Plo Koon as an overall combatant at all. Spars rarely if ever equate to two combatants going all-out. Fisto curbing himself against a lesser swordsman in CD gives us a more plausible conclusion: Koon was training Kenobi (the whole point of the spar) and limited himself. Kenobi overcame these limitations, and so “defeated” a holding back Koon, hence the commendation. In other terms, the quote from Koon is too dubious to definitively claim TPM Kenobi > Plo Koon.

@LOTL wrote:Not only does he cite that it is a great feat, he also cites and explicitly mentions his rank in the Order. I don't get what is so difficult about this, everyone I communicated this feat to, months before you joined, including Ziggy, ILS, Nova, Ant( who initially brought the feat to my notice) concluded that the quote clearly means that Koon "conceded" inferiority to Obi Wan and that this one quote indicates that Obi Wan is better than him( not their opinion, just the inference from the quote) in combat.

Ant certainly does not share this viewpoint. Ask him yourself. In fact, I don’t know anybody who’s shared the opinion publicly that TPM Kenobi > Plo Koon as a combatant. Furthermore, Kenobi would obviously know that Koon was holding back, and he’s not dumb.

Most of the other stuff is part of our debate, so I’ll leave it for then, but:

@LOTL wrote:What? You have countless cases of "A is stronger in the force than B" and A>B. If you start invalidating all of them, it's basically uprooting the established hierarchy, and would be a mistake because, as I have stated, you can "grow stronger in the force"( again, there must be countless examples as such) so yeah, the "strong in the force" concept refers to actualized strength, not latent strength.
I’m not convinced that strength in the Force can only mean actualised power. I’ll get back to you there. Anyway, there’s no demonstration of power from Kenobi by AotC that surpasses Jinn’s hype as a force wielder.
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 4:12 pm
You’re using titles to flavor your argument in a specific way. Titles don’t mean anything. Mundi was a knight and sat on the council; Anakin was a knight when he defeated Dooku in combat and was above almost all the council. So, let’s just strip away this unnecessary appeal to titles. You’re failing to understand that Kenobi can still “defeat” a holding back Koon. Qui-Gon’s spar with Xanatos comes to mind. Xanatos disarms his master, but nobody argues that padawan Xanatos is > Jinn. There are so many variables that come into play. Maybe Koon was curbing himself, and Kenobi realised a weakness in Koon’s curbed style and disarms him; the result being Kenobi “defeats” Plo Koon. Kenobi even does this against Maul. He realises he’s going to lose and expends the last of his energy in cutting the saberstaff in half. And again, the fight was a spar, and we don’t know anything about what happened in the actual spar, nor the circumstances, like we do in Cestus Deception. As such, using a spar with a dubious outcome (the game also has you “defeat” Tiin as an objective), not knowing the circumstances and relying on a humble comment from Koon does not prove that TPM Kenobi is > Plo Koon as an overall combatant at all. Spars rarely if ever equate to two combatants going all-out. Fisto curbing himself against a lesser swordsman in CD gives us a more plausible conclusion: Koon was training Kenobi (the whole point of the spar) and limited himself. Kenobi overcame these limitations, and so “defeated” a holding back Koon, hence the commendation. In other terms, the quote from Koon is too dubious to definitively claim TPM Kenobi > Plo Koon.

I am not using titles as a strict logical argument but the intent of the being in question.

As for your argument, it is irrelevant. I have already and for the umpteenth time stated that Koon "curbing" himself is highly unlikely simply because of the sheer awe that he demonstrates at Obi Wan's feat.

This is what you are arguing:

"Obi Wan might have defeated him by any number of ways that have nothing to do with if he was better than him or not"

This is what you have not yet addressed:

"The sheer awe that Koon expresses and the fact that he cites that it is a great feat makes it extremely unlikely that he held back, furthermore, he is obviously not going to let him get away with a false opinion of his own abilities"

And no, you haven't addressed any of this. None of what you said actually disproves any of this and is basically just a repetition of old arguments that are again, irrelevant.

The bottom line is this that if someone, say Ant stated this to you:

"I see XYZ was not bragging when he said he was training my replacement. You are extremely good at debating. It is a no small accomplishment that you managed to beat such an experienced debater(Ant)."

Be honest-The only conclusion you can draw is that you are "better" than him at debating. This isn't about nitpicking at all. This is basic shit. Like, really basic.

Ant certainly does not share this viewpoint. Ask him yourself

Yeah he may not, but he does share the view that this quote implies that he does. So do others

I believe his words were "Lmfao this quote implies that Obi Wan beat Plo legitimately, how canon is this", that or something close. It was long ago though.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/plo-koon-vs-tpm-obi-wan-1943908/

This is Ziggy's statement.

Likewise, Grey too.

Again, I didn't say that it is their opinion. I said, and see this carefully "This quote implies that it does"

Furthermore, Kenobi would obviously know that Koon was holding back, and he’s not dumb.

This is just dumb. So I give a compliment that clearly indicates that I was beaten and that it is apparently a "great feat" but then, I obviously don't mean it, because I was so clearly holding back, but of course, my opponent has no way of knowing that, so I'll deceive him? Or even better, my opponent clearly knows that, but we both know that the fact I am beaten and that it is a great showing as a compliment means nothing because he so clearly knows that, and I know that he knows that. So, why bother with a compliment that any other guy( let's not kid ourselves) would take to be true? Maybe I was stupid to make a remark like that.

If Obi Wan knows that he held back and Koon knows that he knows then the entire compliment is useless and "false" meaning Koon outright lied. It is also completely redundant.

If Obi Wan "doesn't" know that Koon held back, and Koon knows that he doesn't know but makes it out to be a great feat citing that Kenobi is very strong in the force, obviously indicating that Kenobi actually is better than him( again, let's not kid ourselves) but internally he knows that he held back, he is again, lying and deceiving Obi Wan

If Obi Wan doesn't know that Koon held back, but Koon thinks he knows that( in other words Koon thinks that Obi Wan is very smart and knows that he held back), then the case is "exactly" the same as the first case, the compliment is useless, irrelevant and an outright lie because to Koon, the situation is exactly the same.

If Obi Wan knows that he held back, but Koon doesn't know that Obi Wan knows then the situation is exactly the same as the second situation from Koon's angle. To him, Obi Wan might very well be dumb, and he is basically deceiving him.

All the above assumes that Koon knows that he held back.

Hence, it is absurd to assume that Koon relying on Obi Wan to know that can actually disqualify my argument. You clearly see, using nothing but mathematical logic, the case is useless from every angle. There are 4 general scenarios and every one of them make it evident that your argument really doesn't hold any water. Moreover, unlike other things this is strict logic, meaning it is true. No subjectivity. Before you rant on anything, clearly note that this addresses the bit where you use Kenobi's deduction as an argument, nothing else.

Your theory that he might have outsmarted him also doesn't hold any water. In game, you have to drain Koon of his energy and then win, and no matter how that happens, you eventually have to do this in the game.

It is really quite simple being honest. This is like me taking all of your Qui Gon hype and arguing it means nothing because "xyz reasons" and not understanding something so clear

And yeah, the CD fight is bunk. But I'll save some of that fun for the debate.
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 24th 2019, 5:00 pm
Yeah, I can see you're not convinced. I doubt the above will do anything to convince you either. Let's agree to disagree tbh.
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on June 24th 2019, 8:23 pm
Given this a lot of thought. Even though I believe both were trying their hardest in The Threat Within Jinn is still, as per the same author Jude Watson, the superior combatant a year later[1].  Dooku did think Kenobi compared unfavorably to Jinn but lets not forget that Kenobi was both exhausted from the arena fight[2] and had been tortured for several hours[3] so we should take Dooku's musings with a grain of salt. Kenobi was certainly not at his best when he fought Dooku not even close and he still drove back a toying Dooku. AotC Kenobi's feat against Jango Fett isn't bad at all. Fett has killed Jedi knights and Padawan's with his bare hands, gave Mace Windu serious difficulty, three shot a Soresu Master in Coleman Trebor, and in a good fight beat down Dooku's former apprentice Komori Vosa who is also a Soresu practitioner[4] and that was after beating his rival the Mandalorian Montross and fighting through hordes of Vosa's minions and being mind raped by her while her captive so I doubt he was in peak condition when he beat her. While Kenobi's fight with him was inconclusive Jango did feel he ran out of options at one point before Boba intervened, meaning Kenobi was likely slightly superior of the two. It's a good fight but I think Kenobi's familiarity with Jinn's style which already enabled his 17 year old self to fight on even terms with him is an edge Jinn can't match with his superior experience.

Footnotes:

[1] He rolled a Merr-Sonn fragmentation grenade into the center of the
room. It exploded immediately, sending shrapnel in all directions. He
rolled to a stop, crouching behind a lightweight shield.
Qui-Gon felt the air shimmer with the blast, and the shrapnel exploded
around him. He leaped in front of Obi-Wan and Siri to protect them. It was
hard for even a Jedi Master to deflect grenade shrapnel.
It was fast,
unpredictable, random. It took all of Qui-Gon and Adi's concentration to
block it. Source: Secrets of the Jedi.
[2] "Alone, he knew he had little chance of winning against Dooku. Not only was Dooku a master swordsman, he was rested and fresh, while Obi-Wan was already weary from the fight at the arena".: Source Attack of the Clones Junior Novel. Mace was also exhausted in the Attack of the Clones Senior Novel and the Script also says the twenty next to the main characters are exhausted.
[3] "Blue-tongued bolts of lightning coursed through Obi-Wan Kenobi, gathering at his wrists and ankles before racing up and down his body in a journey surely designed to drive him to the edge of reason.… How long he’d been there, he could not say. Hours certainly. He was exhausted, yet wired, his mind wandering deplorably, unable to concentrate on one thing for more than a few moments at a time." Source: Precipice.
[4] "The Gamorreans opened fire from either side, but Vosa moved faster than they could shoot, faster even than the naked eye could see. Adapting the Form One style of Soresu, she whirled her lightsabers in front of her, their blades absorbing and deflecting the blasts easily from all sides." Source: Maul: Lockdown.


Last edited by O-Siri on August 27th 2019, 5:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 25th 2019, 1:51 pm
@Kilius

Dooku did think Kenobi compared unfavorably to Jinn but lets not forget that Kenobi was both exhausted from the arena fight[2] and had been tortured for several hours[3] so we should take Dooku's musings with a grain of salt. Kenobi was certainly not at his best when he fought Dooku not even close and he still drove back a toying Dooku.

Kenobi's fatigue from the arena fight it totally irrelevant. Force Users have generally been shown to be capable of washing away physical fatigue and injury with the Force. All the arena fight does is make it so that when Kenobi commits to an offensive he burns out much quicker due to having to commit more reserves when attacking because of his physical tiredness as is shown in the Junior Novelization where Kenobi's washes away his tiredness and the only time it is noted as a hindrance is when Kenobi is unable to keep up the pace of his attack for long. So, in other words, Kenobi when fighting Dooku in AOTC should be at peak strength and it's only towards the end of the duel that he is burned out.

Secondly, the script describes the scene where Kenobi drives Dooku back as a "moment" establishing it wasn't at all lengthy.
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on June 25th 2019, 2:22 pm
Was going to counter that point, but HP already has it in the bag. For the other points:

I'm not sure about Jango. He's definitely extremely hyped and impressive, but AFAIK he doesn't hold a torch to someone like Aurra Sing.

I'm not convinced that knowledge of Jinn's style edges Obi-Wan out, especially when Dooku is thoroughly unimpressed with Kenobi's performance within the context of having being trained by Qui-Gon. What's more, Jinn's style is virtually on par with TPM Windu's Vaapad, who is stated as having "complete mastery" of lightsaber combat.
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on June 25th 2019, 2:26 pm
How is this thread even a thread? Has anyone ever broken it down to basic logistics? Dooku was exhausted when he fought Anakin, he fought Obi wan before that.

Meanwhile Jinn pressured Maul sure, but we have absolute confirmation that AOTC Dooku is above Maul by quite the margin.

Essentially we have someone who tired an A+
And someone who tired an A-

Who is more impressive?
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 25th 2019, 2:29 pm
Maul is more like a C to Dooku's A lmfao
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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 25th 2019, 2:36 pm
Better_than_Dooku wrote:Maul is more like a C to Dooku's A lmfao

Comments like that, though I agree, call ILS here, not interested in debating some tattooed drag queen and his insane feat books.
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on June 25th 2019, 2:37 pm
IDC tbh. Don't see literally anything from Maul by TPM that puts him close to AotC Dooku except for misconstruing the spars he has with Sidious where he gets hammered.
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on June 25th 2019, 2:41 pm
Better_than_Dooku wrote:IDC tbh. Don't see literally anything from Maul by TPM that puts him close to AotC Dooku except for misconstruing the spars he has with Sidious where he gets hammered.

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AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn - Page 2 Empty Re: AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

on June 25th 2019, 3:22 pm
Krayt Dies wrote:@Kilius

Dooku did think Kenobi compared unfavorably to Jinn but lets not forget that Kenobi was both exhausted from the arena fight[2] and had been tortured for several hours[3] so we should take Dooku's musings with a grain of salt. Kenobi was certainly not at his best when he fought Dooku not even close and he still drove back a toying Dooku.

Kenobi's fatigue from the arena fight it totally irrelevant. Force Users have generally been shown to be capable of washing away physical fatigue and injury with the Force. All the arena fight does is make it so that when Kenobi commits to an offensive he burns out much quicker due to having to commit more reserves when attacking because of his physical tiredness as is shown in the Junior Novelization where Kenobi's washes away his tiredness and the only time it is noted as a hindrance is when Kenobi is unable to keep up the pace of his attack for long. So, in other words, Kenobi when fighting Dooku in AOTC should be at peak strength and it's only towards the end of the duel that he is burned out.

Secondly, the script describes the scene where Kenobi drives Dooku back as a "moment" establishing it wasn't at all lengthy.

Kenobi is literally stated to be exhausted "as" he is fighting Dooku.
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