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Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 12:59 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!


What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways. 

You cant pick and choose one or two quotes to use to try and sustain a thin argument. If i wanted to do that i could just as easily use the OOU quote from jedi fallen order that labels Vader as the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and then use the quote from star wars rebels that labels palpatime as Omnipoent. One off accolades are lower in canon than movie canon.


Excuse me, you were the one who introduced Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith into the discussion with your scaling.

As for Palpatine calling him Lord Vader, that's him giving Anakin a Sith name. The two sources are in alignment and do not contradict each other.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 2:08 pm
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!


What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways. 

You cant pick and choose one or two quotes to use to try and sustain a thin argument. If i wanted to do that i could just as easily use the OOU quote from jedi fallen order that labels Vader as the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and then use the quote from star wars rebels that labels palpatime as Omnipoent. One off accolades are lower in canon than movie canon.


Excuse me, you were the one who introduced Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith into the discussion with your scaling.

As for Palpatine calling him Lord Vader, that's him giving Anakin a Sith name. The two sources are in alignment and do not contradict each other.


I introduced LOTS scaling? Where? 

No no. Anakin is no longer his name. He is forever known, as darth vader. You cant say things align just because you think it fits. The movie canon over rules the accolade.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 2:40 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways.

Anakin was Vader in name only by Operation Knightfall and Mustafar. He only truly becomes Vader when Padme dies and thus Anakin becoming dormant, until Luke enters the picture. Vader isn't just a name, it's a different psychological persona that he has because he suffers from a bad case of dissocative identity disorder, which is conveyed in Rebels when he says "Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him" as Vader.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 2:57 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways.

Anakin was Vader in name only by Operation Knightfall and Mustafar. He only truly becomes Vader when Padme dies and thus Anakin becoming dormant, until Luke enters the picture. Vader isn't just a name, it's a different psychological persona that he has because he suffers from a bad case of dissocative identity disorder, which is conveyed in Rebels when he says "Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him" as Vader.


This may all be true, but you still have an OOU source noting that VADER had never faced a jedi as powerful as kirak. Vader didn't purify himself of everything and purge "anakin" from his mind until the end of the vader comics. We are still left with "vader fighting someone more powerful than any jedi he had faced yet". That statement blankets kenobi in.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 3:11 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!


What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways. 

You cant pick and choose one or two quotes to use to try and sustain a thin argument. If i wanted to do that i could just as easily use the OOU quote from jedi fallen order that labels Vader as the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and then use the quote from star wars rebels that labels palpatime as Omnipoent. One off accolades are lower in canon than movie canon.


Excuse me, you were the one who introduced Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith into the discussion with your scaling.

As for Palpatine calling him Lord Vader, that's him giving Anakin a Sith name. The two sources are in alignment and do not contradict each other.


I introduced LOTS scaling? Where? 

No no. Anakin is no longer his name. He is forever known, as darth vader. You cant say things align just because you think it fits. The movie canon over rules the accolade.


"Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak" - This "confirmation" is from the comic series. It appears you are the one cherry picking what statements we can and can't use.

The movie gives us scenes. Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith goes into detail and gives us Vader's own thoughts on the subject, which we didn't get in the movie. Besides, Vader is redeemed and once again becomes Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 3:14 pm
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!


What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways. 

You cant pick and choose one or two quotes to use to try and sustain a thin argument. If i wanted to do that i could just as easily use the OOU quote from jedi fallen order that labels Vader as the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and then use the quote from star wars rebels that labels palpatime as Omnipoent. One off accolades are lower in canon than movie canon.


Excuse me, you were the one who introduced Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith into the discussion with your scaling.

As for Palpatine calling him Lord Vader, that's him giving Anakin a Sith name. The two sources are in alignment and do not contradict each other.


I introduced LOTS scaling? Where? 

No no. Anakin is no longer his name. He is forever known, as darth vader. You cant say things align just because you think it fits. The movie canon over rules the accolade.


"Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak" - This "confirmation" is from the comic series. It appears you are the one cherry picking what statements we can and can't use.

The movie gives us scenes. Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith goes into detail and gives us Vader's own thoughts on the subject, which we didn't get in the movie. Besides, Vader is redeemed and once again becomes Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Youre the one that began this whole disagreement by trying to say anakin was not vader without a suit. We were discussing movie heairarchy and its superiority to novel blurbs. Unlike you, I'm actually backing myself up that vader is > kenobi with blurbs from a comic. Youre trying to use a blurb to over rule a movie quote. 

I'm not sure what vaders redemption has to do with anything, but im glad you at least know it exists lol.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 3:19 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!


What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways. 

You cant pick and choose one or two quotes to use to try and sustain a thin argument. If i wanted to do that i could just as easily use the OOU quote from jedi fallen order that labels Vader as the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and then use the quote from star wars rebels that labels palpatime as Omnipoent. One off accolades are lower in canon than movie canon.


Excuse me, you were the one who introduced Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith into the discussion with your scaling.

As for Palpatine calling him Lord Vader, that's him giving Anakin a Sith name. The two sources are in alignment and do not contradict each other.


I introduced LOTS scaling? Where? 

No no. Anakin is no longer his name. He is forever known, as darth vader. You cant say things align just because you think it fits. The movie canon over rules the accolade.


"Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak" - This "confirmation" is from the comic series. It appears you are the one cherry picking what statements we can and can't use.

The movie gives us scenes. Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith goes into detail and gives us Vader's own thoughts on the subject, which we didn't get in the movie. Besides, Vader is redeemed and once again becomes Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Youre the one that began this whole disagreement by trying to say anakin was not vader without a suit. We were discussing movie heairarchy and its superiority to novel blurbs. Unlike you, I'm actually backing myself up that vader is > kenobi with blurbs from a comic. Youre trying to use a blurb to over rule a movie quote. 

I'm not sure what vaders redemption has to do with anything, but im glad you at least know it exists lol.


A blurb that comes from Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith which, incidentally, is where we get confirmation from Vader himself on when Anakin truly became Vader. Both quotes are from the same source, and you are disregarding one. Hence, cherry picking.

You yourself said that Anakin is "forever known, as darth vader" which contradicts the movie canon, the highest form of canon.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 3:26 pm
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!


What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways. 

You cant pick and choose one or two quotes to use to try and sustain a thin argument. If i wanted to do that i could just as easily use the OOU quote from jedi fallen order that labels Vader as the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and then use the quote from star wars rebels that labels palpatime as Omnipoent. One off accolades are lower in canon than movie canon.


Excuse me, you were the one who introduced Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith into the discussion with your scaling.

As for Palpatine calling him Lord Vader, that's him giving Anakin a Sith name. The two sources are in alignment and do not contradict each other.


I introduced LOTS scaling? Where? 

No no. Anakin is no longer his name. He is forever known, as darth vader. You cant say things align just because you think it fits. The movie canon over rules the accolade.


"Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak" - This "confirmation" is from the comic series. It appears you are the one cherry picking what statements we can and can't use.

The movie gives us scenes. Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith goes into detail and gives us Vader's own thoughts on the subject, which we didn't get in the movie. Besides, Vader is redeemed and once again becomes Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Youre the one that began this whole disagreement by trying to say anakin was not vader without a suit. We were discussing movie heairarchy and its superiority to novel blurbs. Unlike you, I'm actually backing myself up that vader is > kenobi with blurbs from a comic. Youre trying to use a blurb to over rule a movie quote. 

I'm not sure what vaders redemption has to do with anything, but im glad you at least know it exists lol.


A blurb that comes from Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith which, incidentally, is where we get confirmation from Vader himself on when Anakin truly became Vader. Both quotes are from the same source, and you are disregarding one. Hence, cherry picking.

You yourself said that Anakin is "forever known, as darth vader" which contradicts the movie canon, the highest form of canon.

I still think you and I aren't lining up at the same place here. "Anakin" doesn't fully go dormant until the very end of the vader comic strip( a few years before rebels. ) that being said, he is KNOWN as vader by everyone, sidious, the troopers, officers, the public itself. Thats why when it is addressed in issue (2?) Of the vader comic strip, an out of universe reference notes that VADER has never faced a jedi this powerful before. "Anakin" isn't fully dormant until the very end of the strip. Somewhere along these lines you and I are getting messed up on where one thinks anakin dues and vader is born, because in an OOU eye, vader exists during the end of ROTS. In an IU Eye, vader isn't fully around until the end of the the strip, until ROTJ. 


Oh! I see! You got me good! On my own wordplay! Damn!😂
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 6:27 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Latham2000 wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways.

Anakin was Vader in name only by Operation Knightfall and Mustafar. He only truly becomes Vader when Padme dies and thus Anakin becoming dormant, until Luke enters the picture. Vader isn't just a name, it's a different psychological persona that he has because he suffers from a bad case of dissocative identity disorder, which is conveyed in Rebels when he says "Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him" as Vader.
This may all be true, but you still have an OOU source noting that VADER had never faced a jedi as powerful as kirak. Vader didn't purify himself of everything and purge "anakin" from his mind until the end of the vader comics. We are still left with "vader fighting someone more powerful than any jedi he had faced yet". That statement blankets kenobi in.

OOU sources also state that Anakin only became Vader when Padme died at the end of RotS. Sidious dubbing Anakin as “Lord Vader” doesn’t overrule those sources because he is an IU source.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 27th 2020, 8:37 pm
Yo chill out with the quoting. Don't pull a Nuisance VS LOTF.
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