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LOTL

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 2:31 am
@KingofBlades wrote:@LOTL I never said Dooku TKing Kenobi was a result of power superiority. What I said was that regardless of whether Dooku does it via power or mastery, its going to be something Dooku is always going to have in his bag of tricks. Personally, I think the mastery explanation is more probable, as Kenobi's force defences don't get shredded by MFV. With the film, all Dooku does is a simple parry. So unless Kenobi is an utterly inept fighter, I suggest Dooku's mastery is just so supreme he's able to exploit openings that others can't perceive or act on. And if you want to say that knowledge of Kenobi's form allowed Dooku to create and subsequently exploit an opening in the film then sure. But as I said to you in a different thread, Dooku doing something in one version of the fight does not mean he did this or needs to do this in a different version of the fight. And this is plainly evident in the adult novel, as Kenobi isn't distracted or engaged in sabers at the moment when Dooku TKs him.

Couldn't care less about Dooku being able to do it consistently. His knowledge, technique and mastery is probably second to Yoda, and he has unique insight to Kenobi's attacks which means that he will always consistently get an opening with this version of Obi Wan. Only countering the notion of Dooku being much more powerful than Obi Wan
KingofBlades
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 2:37 am
Well then you wrote out a WoT to me countering something I never even argued for in the first place but whatever. Glad we agree
Master Azronger
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 6:28 am
@KingofBlades Why are your quotations often so chopped up?

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KingofBlades
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 6:37 am
It's the way the copy pasting turns out for some reason. I tend to not notice but I'll try to remember to fix it.
Thrawn
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 7:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@SnowxElf
Indeed, but Dooku had already used a lot of his reserves up to this point and Anakin was dueling him alone which gave Dooku the disadvantage because Dooku was holding an edge at the beginning of the fight by manipulating their positioning.

Dooku was disadvantaged because he was outsmarted and intentionally put into that position by Anakin and Obi Wan in the novel.

People who use that argument are essentially saying "What If" we undo Dooku's stupidity in order to give him an advantage against our heroes because I want him to win.

It discredits the competence and achievements of our heroes.

There's two points here because there's two versions of the IH Dooku/Anakin/Obi Wan fight. The novel and the movie. The movie is the true version, but the novel is compatible since it reiterates the movie, just in slightly alternate ways or with added details.

1. IH movie - Anakin just steamrolls Dooku. Straight up. Dooku dies in under 2 minutes.

There's no prolonged engagement, no need for endurance, no reserves to blow through. Anakin just straight up murders Dooku with his skill and power because he's better. 

2. The ROTS novel - This is where "Dooku blows through his reserves" scenario takes place.

Dooku does use up a lot of his reserves and endurance...which shows his sheer arrogance and stupidity.

That's the point. Obi Wan and Anakin clowned him. They knew Dooku was old and had no ability to outlast an opponent in a prolonged engagement.

In the novel they lure him into a sense of false security and are tricking him into using up his stamina because they are still trying to catch him. Which is one reason why Obi Wan gets incapacitated. Until Obi Wan gets injured the plan is to capture Dooku.

Dooku using up his force reserves is a huge point against Dooku.

Battle tactics and strategy play as much a part in duels as skill and strength in the force.

Dooku knowingly walked into a situation he thought he could win, was outsmarted, and killed.

Dooku is jealous of Anakin and threatened by Sidious' interest in him. Dooku is so blinded by jealousy and hate he can't see let alone admit that Anakin is more powerful and skilled than him as a combatant.
---------

All this talk about "What If" Dooku didn't use his reserves doesn't matter. He was expertly manipulated into his own defeat by Anakin and Obi Wan.

You might as well say "What If" Anakin wasn't the chosen one? "What If" Dooku was 20 years younger.

Doesn't matter.

Dooku wasn't as good as he thought he was. 

The Revenge of the Sith Visual Guide:

Too late, Dooku realized Anakin is more powerful than he could have imagined.

Easily Replaceable:

Sidious had promised to intervene in the duel, in the unlikely event that Anakin gained the upper hand.
Blinded by pride, Dooku failed to grasp that, like Darth Maul before him, he is little more than a placeholder for the apprentice Sidious has sought from the beginning: Skywalker himself.

Notice the Bolded word above? Dooku doesn't think he can lose due to his own arrogance because he's bought into all the crap Sidious has been selling him over the years "You're the best apprentice ever Count." "Together we'll rule the Galaxy". "The Darkside has made you unbeatable". "Anakin and Obi Wan are stupid bullies. You'll show them".

That's one of the key themes of Star Wars - the villains are always undone by their own arrogance.

TPM Darth Maul - Gloating over Obi Wan, gets cut in half.

ROTS Dooku - Stupidly thinks he's irreplaceable and can beat Anakin - The Chosen One. The Count walks into a 2 on 1 situation against the two greatest Jedi the Republic can muster and gets utterly annihilated in near record speed. 

ROTS Darth Vader - Blinded with hate, he gets defeated by Obi Wan despite being more powerful and a superior fighter.

ROTJ - The Emperor has won for so long he doesn't think he can lose and thinks he's got Vader's complete loyalty. Then gets chucked over a railing into a pit. 

Every single Sith we see ultimately gets defeated by their own arrogance.

That's not a lucky coincidence.

I don't know if George Lucas studied any Tolkien, but one of the absolute key aspects in Tolkien is that Evil is ultimately self defeating. Frodo actually fails in his quest; it's Gollum who actually completes it due to the lust and craving the One Ring inspired in Gollum.

Lucas followed a similar path with his portrayal of evil.

------------

Despite Dooku's power and skill, Darth Sidious never really regarded him as highly as Vader or Maul in both the EU and the Disney Canon. He's referred to Dooku as "that old Scoundrel" and in the Vader Comics:

Darth Sidious: And my apprentices? Darth Maul was a loss. But Darth Tyranus...he was a proton torpedo. He served his purpose and was gone.

There are several instances of this. There's a palpable sense of disdain Sidious has for Dooku in Labyrinth of Evil and Yoda: Dark Rendezvous  as well. It's subtle, but it's there.


Nobody seems to ask themselves why this is.

Either way, I love Count Dooku. He's a great villain, I just think in debating circles Dooku is misunderstood in relation to his intended place in the mythos.

This has been fun.


Last edited by Thrawn on July 21st 2020, 1:08 am; edited 2 times in total
BigMouthPrick
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 11:53 pm
^

The Duo's tactic against Dooku reminds me of how weaker prisoners will sometimes trick their cell-mates into doing a ton of push-ups until they tire, and then proceed to beat them up without much resistance.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 21st 2020, 2:11 am
@Thrawn

@Thrawn wrote:This has been fun

Thanks, I have a counter argument of my own.

Dooku was disadvantaged because he was outsmarted and intentionally put into that position by Anakin and Obi Wan in the novel. People who use that argument are essentially saying "What If" we undo Dooku's stupidity in order to give him an advantage against our heroes because I want him to win. It discredits the competence and achievements of our heroes.

But his stupidity will be undone here because the rules state that Dooku is going all-out here, so he's not messing around here like he did before.

There's two points here because there's two versions of the IH Dooku/Anakin/Obi Wan fight. The novel and the movie. The movie is the true version, but the novel is compatible since it reiterates the movie, just in slightly alternate ways or with added details. 1. IH movie - Anakin just steamrolls Dooku. Straight up. Dooku dies in under 2 minutes. There's no prolonged engagement, no need for endurance, no reserves to blow through. Anakin just straight up murders Dooku with his skill and power because he's better. 

In the movie, Anakin steamrolls Dooku only once Obi is taken out of the picture. Anakin wasn't wrecking him before and Dooku tagged him several times with kicks, one folding him in half.

2. The ROTS novel - This is where "Dooku blows through his reserves" scenario takes place. Dooku does use up a lot of his reserves and endurance...which shows his sheer arrogance and stupidity. That's the point. Obi Wan and Anakin clowned him. They knew Dooku was old and had no ability to outlast an opponent in a prolonged engagement. In the novel they lure him into a sense of false security and are tricking him into using up his stamina because they are still trying to catch him. Which is one reason why Obi Wan gets incapacitated. Until Obi Wan gets injured the plan is to capture Dooku.

The plan was not to capture Dooku here. 

Obi offered Dooku a chance to "surrender" and "no further chance" would be given and Dooku refused; implying that they would try to kill him. It is also stated right after that Anakin "angled for the kill". It's clear in other parts of the text as well that they were trying to kill him: 


"Surrender." Kenobi's voice deepened into finality. "You will be given no further chance."
Dooku lifted an eyebrow. "Unless one of you happens to be carrying Yoda in his pocket, I hardly think I shall need one."
The Force crackled between them, and the ship pitched and bucked under a new turbolaser barrage, and Dooku decided that the time had come. He flicked a false glance over his shoulder-a hint of distraction to draw the attack-And all three of them moved at once.
The ship shuddered and the red smoke surged from Anakin's spine into his arms and legs and head and when Dooku gave the slightest glance of concern over his shoulder, distracted for half an instant, Anakin just couldn't wait anymore.
He sprang, lightsaber angled for the kill.

And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak. Dooku thought, What?



@Thrawn wrote:That's the point. Obi Wan and Anakin clowned him. They knew Dooku was old and had no ability to outlast an opponent in a prolonged engagement.

These sources contradict what you're saying (Junior novel):
There's nothing that implies they were trying to stall the duel, if so, citation needed.
"He’s old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going as long as he needed. What am I going to do? I have to beat him, or the Chancellor and Obi-Wan are dead. Not to mention me…. Behind him, he heard Chancellor Palpatine calling something, trying to be heard over the crackle and hum of the lightsabers. “Use your aggressive feelings, Anakin! Call on your rage. Focus it, or you don’t stand a chance against him.” 

"Even with both Anakin and Obi-Wan pressing him, he seemed at ease. The Jedi used every trick they knew, leaping and striking from unexpected directions. Dooku blocked them all. At least he’s not having any more luck hitting us than we are hitting him, Obi-Wan thought. That’s a big improvement over last time." 

@Thrawn wrote:Despite Dooku's power and skill, Darth Sidious never really regarded him as highly as Vader or Maul in both the EU and the Disney Canon. He's referred to Dooku as "that old Scoundrel" and in the Vader Comics:

Sidious basically views all of his apprentices in contempt. He pretty much views all of them as inferior life forms. What makes you think he didn't hold Dooku as high as the others? He tells Maul "you have been replaced" (referring to Dooku). He also tells Luke that Vader was a "sick man in an iron mask".
HeartoftheForce
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 21st 2020, 2:15 am
Using Sids words as evidence only works in the most specific circumstances. He'll say whatever he has to to get the point across.
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