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HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 6:29 am
This IH Kenobi and BoRotS Anakin vs Dooku

Conditions 

- Kenobi and Skywalker start out going all out with their main forms. Dooku is all out at the start as well
- Palpatine is not present or in danger to motivate Anakin.
- B2's are not present. 

Takes place in the IH observation deck.


Last edited by HeartoftheForce on July 19th 2020, 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 6:39 am
I can see Dooku winning if there's no fluffing around.
HellfireUnit
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 6:46 am
Team wins again, unless Dooku is dead serious to kill them without any consequences.
Meatpants
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 6:51 am
Actually yeah, it'd have to be morals off for Dooku. He does legitimately care about Kenobi.
Latham2000
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 6:56 am
Unless if Dooku finds some kind of dirty trick to win, team wins.
KingofBlades
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 8:10 am
IH Kenobi is going to get dispatched because he's...well because he's Kenobi. Then it comes down to Anakin vs Dooku and it'll depend on if Anakin is using his rage or not. If he fights like he did in the adult novel(pre Zonakin), Dooku isn't winning.
BreakofDawn
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 10:03 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Team wins again. Even without the element of surprise, Dooku isn't able to outduel one of them with enough time to avoid getting skewered by the other, and if Kenobi isn't a moron this time and keeps his defences up rather than rushing in like a moron, he and Anakin can definitely overwhelm the Count in sabers.
KingofBlades
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 10:32 am
His defenses were only down in the jr novel. The ragdoll still happens in both the film and adult novel.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 11:00 am
Even prior to Sidious intervening, Dooku admitted that Obi Wan and Anakin could possibly beat him.
BreakofDawn
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 11:10 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@KingofBlades wrote:His defenses were only down in the jr novel. The ragdoll still happens in both the film and adult novel.
The film has him clash with Dooku, staggered and then choked. The adult novel has Dooku kick him as he’s rushing up the stairs and then smacking him with the Force as he falls.
NotAA3
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 11:18 am
and if Kenobi isn't a moron this time and keeps his defences up rather than rushing in like a moron, he and Anakin can definitely overwhelm the Count in sabers.

Dooku's fast enough to throw Kenobi across the room with TK while the latter was actively attempting to defend against him (SN), so no it's not just Kenobi being a retard. Moreover, if your point is seriously that Kenobi's a 4 IQ fighter who makes dumb mistakes like leaving himself open to Dooku, why would the answer to the battle change for this thread (surely he'll make these dumb mistakes here, too)?

OT: Largely depends on Dooku vs Anakin. Kenobi's not skilled nor fast enough to stop Dooku from exploiting lapses in his defences, and gets consistently thrown out of combat as a result. In regards to the battle between the actual titans here, Anakin has superior augmentation so he'll be on the offensive and drain Dooku of his reserves, but we've seen that - despite this - Dooku's masterful enough to land physical strikes which off-balance Anakin/put Anakin down for a decent amount of time. The battle really depends on how well Dooku can capitalise on these strikes he lands on Anakin, and whether he can finish Anakin early before he burns out. As to whether he's capable of this, I'm unsure, and thus can't really give a definitive answer.
KingofBlades
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 12:38 pm
DuskatDawn wrote:The film has him clash with Dooku, staggered and then choked. 
Sometimes I wonder if you've actually read/seen the sources that get discussed here. Take the Film for instance


Check 1:45, Kenobi isn't staggered lol, he had his attack parried. That's it. Look at his feet; He barely and I mean barely moves. If you want to know what staggering looks like, look a bit to the right, Dooku sends Anakin stumbling backwards. Also Dooku legitimately TKs Kenobi at 1:23 as well, so yeah, what we're seeing either isn't a result of Kenobi getting caught off guard, or he's getting caught off guard really easily, in which case Dooku should be able to reliably force an opening every or at least most of the time anyways.

DuskatDawn wrote:The adult novel has Dooku kick him as he’s rushing up the stairs and then smacking him with the Force as he falls.
I wasn't referencing the kick when I brought up the adult novel, I was mentioning this:



     Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own
Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he
knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous ac-
robatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs
to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku
could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades—and
this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost
failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so
much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly
balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was
necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering
strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper,
and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more
toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding
defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then,
belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had
been ploys, as well.
     Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.
     Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, over-
powering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...
     His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to
deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Real-
ization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming
fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow
managed to become entirely dangerous.
     These clowns might—just possibly—actually be able to beat him.
     No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with
that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than
a new apprentice.
     He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath
that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest
whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi
flying backward to crash hard against the wall,
but Dooku didn't
have time to enjoy it.



Dooku TKs Kenobi whilst the latter is immersed in his defensive bubble. Kenobi isn't distracted, nor has Dooku engineered an opening via sabers. He simply decides to ragdoll and it happens. Whether he accomplishes this via superiority in mastery or power doesn't matter; either explanation means TKing Kenobi is something Dooku is always going to be able to do. Though since you went and brought up the kick, I would be remiss if I failed to mention Dooku was enormously fatigued when he performs the feat... it happens after all this:



The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's
instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash
of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his
own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to
give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker
came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer
droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step.
Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on
top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried
to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away;
he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength
—not only did the
boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer
physical power was astonishing—
...

     The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand
chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power
of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the
Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half,
and
Skywalker—
     Skywalker was getting stronger.
     Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw
Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began
to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back
down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until
he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he
dimly sensed stairs at his back,
stairs that led up to the entrance
balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher
ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tire-
lessly ferocious.



If Kenobi is getting caught off guard by a Dooku who's so tired that he can barely sense his surroundings, then one can imagine a fresh Dooku would have no issue replicating the feat.


Last edited by KingofBlades on July 20th 2020, 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 1:53 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Team wins again why doing a battle that have been answered before?
HeartoftheForce
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 3:37 pm
Because team doesn’t win under these circumstances
BigMouthPrick
BigMouthPrick

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 4:14 pm
I don't know, not having the B2s might tip the fight...

Dooku can pull what he did on Oba Diah by going all-out on Anakin (forcing him on the defensive where he doesn't shine) and sidelining Kenobi (forcing Obi to go offensive where he fails). IMO Anakin builds up his momentum slowly in all his fights, putting on his best performance towards the end. Dooku would have to exploit this by putting all his energy into KOing him early on.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 4:47 pm
One thing some people don't realize is that Dooku was never going all out against Anakin either in all of their duels because Sheev ordered Dooku to keep Anakin alive. It is also directly stated that Dooku could of killed both of them on the invisible hand duel if he wanted too (although it is also possible that this is only from Dooku's perspective). However, he was still stated to be utterly dominating the beginning of the fight and it's implied that he wasn't even taking the beginning of the fight seriously.  

Oh, they were certainly energetic enough, leaping and whirling, raining blows almost at random, cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction, while Dooku continued, in his gracefully methodical way, to out-maneuver them so thoroughly it was all he could to do keep from laughing out loud.
It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat-attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at him from both sides-while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cutting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner.
Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another-and occasionally flip over a head here and there-so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way.
They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.
They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.
He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.
However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.

The ROTS novel makes it really clear that Obi was actually hindering Anakin from using his powers against Dooku. Because Dooku is a master at positioning and leverage, he was able to make Obi and Anakin get in each other's way. Once Anakin was alone with Dooku, even before amped, he was dominating Dooku. If Dooku takes out Obi first then Anakin would start dominating him again like what happened. But it is possible that Dooku kills Anakin first then with the main threat out of the way he would then dominate Obi. Dooku has a 50% at winning I would say.
Thrawn
Thrawn

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 19th 2020, 11:32 pm
We've seen this outcome before, the conditions here are irrelevant.

Anakin by the opening of ROTS is simply too much for Dooku. 

Dooku dies in a few minutes again.

If Kenobi gets injured or skewered Dooku gets instakilled sooner by Anakin.


Last edited by Thrawn on July 21st 2020, 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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LOTL

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 12:19 am
Man, why are these cringe Dooku arguments still being propagated?
The lord of hunger
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 1:36 am
@LOTL wrote:Man, why are these cringe Dooku arguments still being propagated?
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LOTL

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 1:39 am
@KingofBlades wrote:His defenses were only down in the jr novel. The ragdoll still happens in both the film and adult novel.

Which applies to the film too. They aren't meant to be separate events just because the author didn't write in one parry. One parry isn't going to change anything lol. The main logic of Obi Wan being blindsided by an "abrupt" change in strategy because of which the attack is too "quick" doesn't change because of one parry. 

Now imagine Palpatine losing his lightsaber because Yoda changed his speed being written in two sequences-One in which Yoda on immediately doubling his speed, immediately pushes the lightsaber away, and the normal one in which he parries two strikes before losing the weapon, and in addition, it is only in this one that it is written that Palpatine was surprised( nothing is mentioned in the previous sequence)

Can you say that just because Palpatine parried 2 strikes in the battle against Yoda who "abruptly" redoubled his speed that the main logic of the lightsaber being flung away simply because Yoda changed his strategy too quickly doesn't apply? Are you going to now choose the sequence that has Palpatine immediately losing, then announce it as some kind of evidence that Yoda is better than Palpatine? Simply because in this sequence, it is not mentioned explicitly that he was surprised, unlike the other one? Because other than the force, this is exactly xeroxed in terms of the actual narrative with Obi Wan vs the Count

The main novel is just a force push. Is Dooku really going to expend more power per strike not even meeting Anakin's power head on, but merely slanting it away, than he is actually overcoming the entirely of Obi Wan's force defenses with the slightest "whipcrack" of power then when you think that he has to meet hundreds of strikes by Anakin in the battle? 

Moreover, think on what he said then: "More power than he had used to throw Kenobi across the room", not "More power than he had used to overcome Kenobi's defense". The lack of mention about overcoming any kind of defense on the part of Kenobi by Dooku is pretty astonishing since that would be the biggest hindrance by a vast margin and the more spectacular achievement. But, instead of commenting on that, he merely comments on "throwing him across the room" as though the physical distance is the bigger achievement, not the act of overpowering Kenobi in battle. Yeah, not a strict logical argument, but it is a thought nonetheless which may give insight into the battle

Which supports Dooku giving the equivalent power of throwing an 80 kg man across the room hundreds of time in the battle for minutes and only then exhausting his power while the notion that he put more power to hundreds of strikes across minutes consistently with each one costing more power than which Obi Wan Kenobi can use to summon an active barrier, that is just comical. Pretty sure you can think on the semantics and get why the argument is nonsensical

Assuming you don't go down the "overpowering barrier" route because you seem to be a supporter of the "Palpatine can't tk Maul" notion, that is just a stray force push. That's it. It would be notable if not for the millions of times it has happened in battles while meaning little on comparing people. At this point, one might point out the countless instances that have Ventress replicating the same achievement, both with Obi Wan and Anakin but hopefully that is not needed

Another point is that holistically, you have way too many excuses for Kenobi. The writers don't have to go out of their way to justify Kenobi's loss yet you have instances of "Kenobi was surprised", "Kenobi thought Dooku can't battle two fronts at once", "Dooku abruptly changed his strategy", "Dooku was too aware about Kenobi's style" etc. No source to my knowledge has like "Dooku was too powerful for him to beat" or "Dooku beat Obi Wan because he was clearly better than him". Instead, they all "tiptoe" across the Obi Wan vs the Count part of the battle and you get multiple sources that give excuses trying to rationalise his loss to him by arguments having nothing to do with being better than him but about random parameters and situational evidence. So many excuses when they don't have to make them, and actually go out of their way to make them is telling

Compare that to say, Qui Gon vs Maul, and you will almost never have a source that says "Maul was stylistically more aware" or anything like that. Most of them pretty easily say that Maul was better than Qui Gon in various components of battle( more stamina, quicker, more powerful etc.). Or Obi Wan vs the Count on Geonosis( the only excuse made here is that he is too exhausted) in which statements announce Obi Wan's vast inferiority pretty easily.


Last edited by LOTL on July 20th 2020, 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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LOTL

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 1:41 am
Again, I completely support Dooku>Kenobi on the IH. I just think the arguments being used to prop Dooku to be vastly more powerful are lacking in substance
KingofBlades
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 1:42 am
One thing some people don't realize is that Dooku was never going all out against Anakin either in all of their duels because Sheev ordered Dooku to keep Anakin alive. It is also directly stated that Dooku could of killed both of them on the invisible hand duel if he wanted too (although it is also possible that this is only from Dooku's perspective). However, he was still stated to be utterly dominating the beginning of the fight and it's implied that he wasn't even taking the beginning of the fight seriously. 
No...just no

Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:These clowns might—just possibly—actually be able to beat him.
No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with
that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than
a new apprentice.




Once Anakin and Kenobi stop their retard act, Dooku no longer holds back against Anakin, and it fails to make any difference during their next encounter:

Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:
Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand
chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power
of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the
Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and
Skywalker—
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw
Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began
to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back
down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until
he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he
dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance
balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher
ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tire-
lessly ferocious.
All those quotes you gave were from the portion of the duel where Anakin and Kenobi were doing their act and had yet to show what they're made of. Once they stop fucking around Dooku's tune changes quickly, and is suddenly worried he could lose:

Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, over-
powering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...
His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to
deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Real-
ization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming
fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow
managed to become entirely dangerous.


Last edited by KingofBlades on July 20th 2020, 6:55 am; edited 2 times in total
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 2:04 am
@Kingofblades

Yes indeed, perhaps I should of clarified that statement more. He wasn't going all out in the duel in the context that he wasn't at the beginning, but yes he changed his mind later.

Once Anakin and Kenobi stop their retard act, Dooku no longer holds back against Anakin, and it fails to make any difference during their next encounter:

Indeed, but Dooku had already used a lot of his reserves up to this point and Anakin was dueling him alone which gave Dooku the disadvantage because Dooku was holding an edge at the beginning of the fight by manipulating their positioning.


Last edited by SnowxElf on July 20th 2020, 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total
HeartoftheForce
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 2:06 am
Obi-Wan is equal with IH Anakin and more powerful than Dooku. It just doesn't matter when Dooku knows his Ataru so damn well it only takes one strike for him to get an opening. People seem to have forgotten that after blocking Dooku's strikes in the Senior Novel Kenobi is stated to start attacking again. Dooku never TK strikes him while he's on the defense. 

Dooku blows a portion of his reserves fooling with the duo and then more staying alive through their surprise switch. Neither of which are happening in this thread per the OP. Despite that he easily incaps Kenobi and Skywalker twice each. The only reason Kenobi is K.O'd instead of Anakin is because Dooku was trying to kill him per the plan. If Dooku would have gone for Anakin he would have been incapped/killed as well. Ragdolling/impaling him while on his ass or struggling to rise from the Counts strike.
KingofBlades
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

on July 20th 2020, 2:09 am
@LOTL I never said Dooku TKing Kenobi was a result of power superiority. What I said was that regardless of whether Dooku does it via power or mastery, its going to be something Dooku is always going to have in his bag of tricks. Personally, I think the mastery explanation is more probable, as Kenobi's force defences don't get shredded by MFV. With the film, all Dooku does is a simple parry. So unless Kenobi is an utterly inept fighter, I suggest Dooku's mastery is just so supreme he's able to exploit openings that others can't perceive or act on. And if you want to say that knowledge of Kenobi's form allowed Dooku to create and subsequently exploit an opening in the film then sure. But as I said to you in a different thread, Dooku doing something in one version of the fight does not mean he did this or needs to do this in a different version of the fight. And this is plainly evident in the adult novel, as Kenobi isn't distracted or engaged in sabers at the moment when Dooku TKs him.
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Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan Empty Re: Dooku vs RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan

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